Logs on 2024-06-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:35:41 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> cheater: Under WSL2 for sure, no reason for it not to. |
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| 11:10:52 | <pja> | ICFP hype increasing? |
| 11:11:35 | <pja> | Or rather ICFPC hype ;) |
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| 11:57:58 | <lxsameer> | is there any type like lisp keywords or symbols in haskell? something to use as map keys without the complications of strings? |
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| 12:09:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you could make one with "data" ? |
| 12:10:05 | <lxsameer> | sm: i could, but surely other people had the same problem before too. so i thought there might be something out there |
| 12:12:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I think the short answer is no, but what's the problem exactly ? |
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| 12:16:47 | <lxsameer> | sm: looking up i8 numbers as a hashmap key is way simpler than dealing with string in general. in lisp for example, I can use :keywords that depending on the compiler, compile into i8 (as an example) but syntactically they are readable strings |
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| 12:17:15 | <ncf> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/intern ? |
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| 12:18:54 | <int-e> | . o O ( key1, key2, key3 :: Int; key1 = 1; key2 = 2; key3 = 3 ) |
| 12:19:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't know what i8 is and I still don't know what problem you're anticipating with string keys - maybe memory footprint and the possibility of misspelling them ? |
| 12:20:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> are new keys generated at runtime ? |
| 12:20:07 | <int-e> | data Keys = Key1 | Key2 | Key3 deriving Enum |
| 12:20:15 | <int-e> | `i8` is Rust's name for a signed 8 bit integer |
| 12:22:58 | <lxsameer> | sm: nope only compile time |
| 12:23:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> making your own enum seems the most typesafe and efficient then ? |
| 12:23:32 | <lxsameer> | int-e: it comes from llvm i think |
| 12:23:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that's our equivalent of symbols |
| 12:25:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or maybe that intern lib is better, but I can't tell from the 6-word doc |
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| 12:26:11 | <lxsameer> | ncf: thank you, reading about it |
| 12:26:44 | <ncf> | (you almost certainly should use data types instead of this madness) |
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| 12:32:14 | <int-e> | lxsameer: fair enough |
| 12:36:06 | <cheater> | lxsameer: i don't know exactly how they're implemented, but i would be very surprised if small enums were NOT implemented as ints |
| 12:36:14 | <cheater> | enums are NOT strings |
| 12:36:21 | <cheater> | they're subsequent values |
| 12:36:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> of course, they'll be super efficient |
| 12:37:07 | <cheater> | just use enums |
| 12:37:23 | <cheater> | that's what you want |
| 12:37:26 | <cheater> | skip this intern bullshit |
| 12:37:48 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or strings. If you don't want to bother with a new type. :) |
| 12:37:58 | <cheater> | he said he didn't want the overhead of strings |
| 12:38:42 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yup they did say that but didn't clarify exactly what kind of overhead.. I think for many apps it'll be negligible |
| 12:39:04 | <cheater> | using stringly typed design is a bad idea in any way |
| 12:39:20 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sometimes the dumb solution is best! fight! |
| 12:39:40 | <cheater> | heh. nah |
| 12:39:47 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> just kidding :) |
| 12:40:02 | <cheater> | just didn't want to crush u |
| 12:40:25 | <Rembane> | Is this when the Rocky training montage starts? |
| 12:40:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> haha you know the dumb coder will win |
| 12:42:13 | <Rembane> | I think it depends on the competition. |
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| 12:47:55 | <lxsameer> | thanks folks |
| 12:51:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> there's also this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/symbol |
| 12:51:57 | <cheater> | stop giving him wrong ideas |
| 12:51:59 | <cheater> | just use enums |
| 12:52:06 | <cheater> | or better yet use a record if you can |
| 12:52:13 | <cheater> | it sounds like you want a record |
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| 12:55:55 | haskellbridge | sm finds plenty more.. https://flora.pm/search?q=symbol |
| 12:57:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I see flora's search prioritises package names more than hackage's |
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| 16:45:12 | <monochrom> | I like dumb solutions. Sometimes they are simpler. Sometimes they are not, but at least funny. :) |
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| 16:52:02 | <danse-nr3> | hm maybe that classifies more for naïve than dumb |
| 16:52:33 | <danse-nr3> | or "qualifies as" |
| 16:52:42 | danse-nr3 | should stop thinking about a trained machine |
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| 16:54:59 | <EvanR> | if a solution is dumb and it works then it's not dumb! |
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| 16:55:15 | <danse-nr3> | also true |
| 16:55:52 | <monochrom> | Does bogosort count as dumb? naive? works? But it sure is funny. :) |
| 16:56:00 | <danse-nr3> | especially because it worked for the little-resource person who found it |
| 16:56:41 | <danse-nr3> | huh domain-specific i guess |
| 16:56:55 | <danse-nr3> | i can't exclude that to be the most sensible in some contexts |
| 16:57:08 | <danse-nr3> | i am not familiar with quantum coding for instance |
| 16:58:02 | <danse-nr3> | to spare others the lookup: |
| 16:58:02 | <danse-nr3> | > highly ineffective sorting algorithm that successively generates permutations of its input until it finds one that is sorted |
| 16:58:04 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:79: error: parse error on input ‘of’ |
| 16:58:19 | <danse-nr3> | hmm how do we use to quote here? |
| 16:58:55 | <monochrom> | We don't. I personally add " " by hand. |
| 16:59:07 | <danse-nr3> | > quote |
| 16:59:17 | <danse-nr3> | i see, will try to keep in mind, thanks |
| 16:59:53 | <monochrom> | But the version I know/heard is random rather than successive. |
| 17:00:48 | <danse-nr3> | dunno i doubt a context exist where that makes sense, 'cause you have to compare values anyways. It is more for mathematicians really, i work with tech and have little time for paradoxical explorations á la brainfuck |
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| 17:01:30 | <EvanR> | randomly permuting the elements might be hardware accelerated by using kinetic ideal gas |
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| 17:01:57 | <EvanR> | the ergodic principle means the particles pass through all possible configurations |
| 17:02:22 | <monochrom> | It's humour rather than any sense of "make sense". |
| 17:02:23 | <danse-nr3> | but then you have to eval success. I suppose that's highly parallelisable |
| 17:02:42 | <EvanR> | maxwell's demon hits the refrigeration button when it sees them all in order |
| 17:02:44 | <danse-nr3> | paradoxical does not mean humorous |
| 17:03:04 | <monochrom> | I don't see a paradox. |
| 17:03:15 | <monochrom> | I find it funny instead. Bite me. |
| 17:03:18 | <danse-nr3> | it's in the performance |
| 17:03:22 | <danse-nr3> | are you tasty? |
| 17:03:50 | danse-nr3 | should stop thinking about a trained machine |
| 17:04:01 | <monochrom> | Why does every joke need to be analysed by logic and performance. |
| 17:04:04 | <danse-nr3> | huh sorry picked a wrong line from my history |
| 17:04:17 | <EvanR> | stop thinking about a trained machine already |
| 17:04:28 | <danse-nr3> | why does nonsense only have to mean a joke? |
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| 17:06:42 | <probie> | bogosort is the kind of thing I'd have unironically written when I was twelve |
| 17:07:08 | <mauke> | quantum bogosort is O(n) |
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| 17:10:13 | <monochrom> | Do you or anyone actually know how to do that quantumly? |
| 17:10:56 | <danse-nr3> | hold on while i do a try with my quantum mobile |
| 17:11:11 | <probie> | So, 13 year old me was enrolled in some "advanced maths" program (with Euler in the name). I wrote a program to solve a problem of the form "which 4 digit number has {properties}", but instead of just iterating over all 4-digit numbers, I had it generate random ones |
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| 17:12:29 | <Digit> | eehehehe, tickles. |
| 17:13:29 | <monochrom> | No, I think you would not think up bogosort back then. If you don't have insights about {properties}, sure you would go random trial-and-error, I would too. But sorting is where a child could easily have the most basic insight, e.g., find the minimum and bring it to the front, recurse. |
| 17:13:53 | <probie> | when my mother [mainframe programmer, slightly allergic to recursion] saw it and asked why I didn't just use a "for loop" I had no real answer beyond "I never thought of that" |
| 17:14:17 | <monochrom> | Yes, recursion is more natural. :) |
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| 17:14:56 | <JuanDaugherty> | probie, and what sort of thing do you write now? an url would be good |
| 17:15:24 | <monochrom> | Someone on Usenet back then tried to argue that iteration is more natural by asking "how do you add 10 numbers? clearly you think of a loop!" I defied them by replying "no, honestly, I add the first 9 numbers, then add the 10th" |
| 17:16:53 | <danse-nr3> | well highly subjective |
| 17:16:57 | <monochrom> | In 1st-year CS when learning linked list algorithms, both iterative and recursive, I immediately preferred the recursive ones. |
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| 17:17:12 | <EvanR> | there are some companies doing quantum computations |
| 17:17:24 | <monochrom> | No that's an understatement. I immediately fell in love with them. |
| 17:18:14 | <danse-nr3> | interesting to find out recursion is naïve at the end of the story |
| 17:18:53 | <monochrom> | But very disappointed when, during a lab, the recursive ones caused stack overflow and I had to write the loops. (MSDOS, small memory model, 64KB stack+data per process.) |
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| 17:20:16 | <JuanDaugherty> | i remember asking what recursion was in my second computer operator job |
| 17:20:32 | <probie> | JuanDaugherty: why are you interested in my "modern" code? |
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| 17:21:13 | <JuanDaugherty> | probie, for the obvious reason, the contrast between 12yo u and now |
| 17:21:34 | <cheater> | lol. i invented recursion loooong before i knew what a computer was or how to even count numbers |
| 17:21:57 | <cheater> | it's such a funny topic |
| 17:22:07 | <cheater> | i think i was like 4 or something |
| 17:22:14 | <JuanDaugherty> | also that woulda told me when u were 12 |
| 17:22:28 | <danse-nr3> | somehow they managed to teach me induction in a way that sounded confusing. Since then i never considered recursion simple again |
| 17:22:34 | <monochrom> | Recursion is divide and conquer. It's natural. |
| 17:22:42 | <Franciman> | is it tho? |
| 17:22:44 | <Franciman> | lol |
| 17:23:00 | <Franciman> | i can't analyse godel's diagonal formula as divide and conquer |
| 17:23:10 | <cheater> | i was trying to read a newspaper and i was asking about what all the words meant that i didn't understand. but then the explanations had other words i didn't understand. and that's how i discovered recursion |
| 17:23:13 | <JuanDaugherty> | prolly meant cantor |
| 17:23:32 | <danse-nr3> | XD cheater |
| 17:24:00 | <cheater> | it was this funny quantum leap in understanding |
| 17:24:23 | <cheater> | that i didn't see any applications for |
| 17:24:27 | <cheater> | like giving a quaker a laser diode |
| 17:24:59 | <danse-nr3> | not sure that would bring any quantum leap in understanding |
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| 17:26:16 | <probie> | JuanDaugherty: I was 12 back in 2004, and I neither have code snippets from then (they lived on an old 486 which has since died), nor code snippets from now (because $dayjob is slightly paranoid) |
| 17:26:54 | <JuanDaugherty> | good! i presumed it was this century, thanks for confirming! |
| 17:28:08 | <JuanDaugherty> | and np most ppl on irc are sekrit squirrels, the edwardks of the world notwithstanding and ofc this nick is my real name |
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| 17:29:34 | <monochrom> | Tangential or maybe right on: There is this Doraemon story: It's midnight and the kid had homework due 8AM and the kid had just begun. Doraemon helped by this strategy: Use the time machine to fetch the 2AM version of Doreamon, and the 4AM version, and the 6AM version. So with the parallelization of 4 Doraemons, the homework was finished by 1:30AM. Everyone could go back to sleep in peace. |
| 17:30:07 | <JuanDaugherty> | u should be nearing the attrition point, at least as far as doing, coding unless you have a true vocation |
| 17:30:17 | <monochrom> | But of course not! At 2AM, Doraemon was brutally woken up to go back in time to do homework. Again at 4AM. Again at 6AM. Sleepless night. |
| 17:30:44 | <danse-nr3> | haha nice one |
| 17:30:53 | <danse-nr3> | can you explain JuanDaugherty it's not clear |
| 17:31:09 | <JuanDaugherty> | danse-nr3, what specifically is not |
| 17:31:22 | <JuanDaugherty> | u was probie |
| 17:31:23 | <danse-nr3> | dunno the sentence is hard to understand to me |
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| 17:32:06 | <JuanDaugherty> | well i need a better question, will wait a few minutes for it then have an errand will see on public log if later |
| 17:32:48 | <monochrom> | TBH I have long given up comprehending anything JuanDaugherty says. |
| 17:33:01 | <danse-nr3> | what is "the attrition point"? Why should they near it? And the incidental before "coding" does not parse |
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| 17:33:51 | <danse-nr3> | huh by "incidental" i meant a sentence in the middle of another, sorry bad translation |
| 17:33:53 | <JuanDaugherty> | https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2020#developer-profile-years-since-learning-to-code-professional-developers |
| 17:34:25 | <JuanDaugherty> | attrition point refers to the phenomenom depicted there, in contrast to most professions |
| 17:35:11 | <JuanDaugherty> | inferred there to be about 15 years |
| 17:35:20 | <danse-nr3> | only relevant "point" there seems to be a strong selection before five years? |
| 17:35:50 | <danse-nr3> | no maybe the deeplink is not that deep ... looking better |
| 17:36:25 | <danse-nr3> | huh which chart then? |
| 17:36:35 | <JuanDaugherty> | monochrom, noted |
| 17:36:51 | <xerox> | I am having brainfart, what am I banging my head on in trying to go [Token] -> Expr a where I have it such that data Expr a where { T,F :: Expr Bool; I :: Int -> Expr Int; Not :: Expr Bool -> Expr Bool; Neg :: Expr Int -> Expr Int; … } ? |
| 17:37:25 | <monochrom> | Is that parsing? |
| 17:37:27 | <xerox> | I can't seem to type that parse :: [Token] -> (Expr a,[Token]) function correctly |
| 17:37:30 | <xerox> | yeah |
| 17:38:24 | <monochrom> | Ah right, very possible you should split it into multiple parsers, e.g., one for Expr Bool, one for Expr Int, etc. |
| 17:38:35 | <mauke> | they can't all be the same function |
| 17:38:42 | <xerox> | oh. |
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| 17:38:53 | <mauke> | unless you go existential |
| 17:39:02 | <xerox> | I was about to have an existential something |
| 17:39:08 | <monochrom> | Either that or conceptually it's [Token] -> (exists a. Expr a, [Token]) |
| 17:39:10 | <EvanR> | you can return a sum type which indicates what a you got |
| 17:39:28 | <EvanR> | like the library juicy-pixels does while loading an unknown image format |
| 17:39:54 | <monochrom> | Oh heh maybe "Either (Expr Bool) (Expr Int)" is simpler. |
| 17:39:59 | <EvanR> | ^ |
| 17:40:28 | <danse-nr3> | existential comes at a cost, it's more opaque |
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| 17:41:56 | <xerox> | so I guess I can't really do [Token] -> Expr a in general if I don't add some code that figures out what the 'a' should be from the Tokens |
| 17:42:20 | <EvanR> | data SomeExpr = BoolExpr (Expr Bool) | IntExpr (Expr Int) | ... |
| 17:42:26 | <xerox> | which can then string the correct various parseType functions to produce the eventual correct Expr a |
| 17:43:28 | <monochrom> | The reason for the type error is... I'll use a shorter but non-parsing example. Suppose you promise "foo :: Expr a". This means the user, not you, choose whether that's Bool or Int. Therefore, you cannot finish with "foo = T" because what if the user demands Int. |
| 17:43:45 | <xerox> | could do Expr Arg with Arg = ArgBool Bool | ArgInt Int | ArgString String (I also need Strings) |
| 17:44:02 | <xerox> | monochrom: reasonable indeed |
| 17:44:13 | <EvanR> | if a always = Arg, that's pointless |
| 17:48:57 | <EvanR> | while SomeExpr isn't pointless, it lets you determine at runtime what kind of Expr a parser produces and then recover the well-typed Expr to be used for purposes later |
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| 17:49:36 | <EvanR> | like requiring the argument to something be a boolean expression |
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| 18:04:43 | <zzz> | cabal install something -> rejecting: base-X.XX.X.X ... -> install old ghc version |
| 18:04:56 | <zzz> | this is how we usually get things to work, right? |
| 18:05:36 | <zzz> | there is no alternative to habing multiple ghc versions installed besides upgrading the packages ourselves |
| 18:09:44 | <xerox> | honestly the Arg idea is pretty nice, thank you, appreciate it |
| 18:11:02 | <Leary> | xerox: Half of the point of this kind of GADT is that all the type information can be recovered by pattern matching, so you can hide or reveal that information wherever convenient. Hide it here (e.g. with `Some`) and all will be well. |
| 18:11:55 | <Leary> | (`data Some f where Some :: f a -> Some f`, or get it from the 'some' package) |
| 18:12:18 | <xerox> | Leary: hmm |
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| 18:17:17 | <zzz> | i find it kind of confusion that base is so tightly coupled with the GHC version |
| 18:18:29 | <zzz> | or rather that GHC versions are so tightly coupled with a specific base version |
| 18:19:12 | <davean> | zzz: I'm a little confused - you can have multiple GHCs installed just fine, and a package can support many versions of base. Can you explain your problem more? |
| 18:19:40 | <monochrom> | zzz: ghcup helps with installing (and uninstalling) multiple versions of ghc, selecting whichever one you like as default, changing the default, ... cabal also has -w for specifying ghc version. |
| 18:19:50 | <davean> | You can --allow-newer base if you aren't too concerned about the pacakge working. |
| 18:20:01 | <monochrom> | and of course there are also nix etc but I don't know them. |
| 18:21:05 | <zzz> | davean: didn't know about --allow-newer. thanks |
| 18:21:46 | <zzz> | well, it' just that i'm running out of disk space |
| 18:22:02 | <zzz> | i can't keep installing ghc |
| 18:22:31 | <zzz> | it moves too fast! |
| 18:23:10 | <geekosaur> | I skip versions |
| 18:23:35 | <davean> | zzz: you can also override specific constrains for specific packages in a cabal.project file. |
| 18:23:37 | <zzz> | mee too, i only install those which i need to compile the packages i'm interested in |
| 18:23:38 | <geekosaur> | didn't install 6.8, 9.0, 9.4, or 9.8 |
| 18:23:56 | <davean> | zzz: Of course this *does* require it to actually *work* with those versions, which you have no warrentee of |
| 18:23:59 | <geekosaur> | and won't install 9.10 until 9.10.2 is out 🙂 |
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| 18:25:02 | <zzz> | maintaing haskell packages is demanding |
| 18:25:09 | <zzz> | because of this |
| 18:25:29 | <davean> | zzz: so what do you find so demanding about it? |
| 18:25:32 | <geekosaur> | also, next ,ajor version of ghc should see base decoupled and reinstallable |
| 18:25:58 | <geekosaur> | the wired-in parts have moved to a ghc-base package |
| 18:26:01 | <zzz> | geekosaur: really? that's all i want |
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| 18:26:15 | <geekosaur> | (there aren't many wired-in parts) |
| 18:26:32 | <davean> | zzz: is bumping a version bound after running your test cases really that much work? You can litterly automate it |
| 18:26:41 | <zzz> | (although i suspect ghc-base to have more or less the same issue) |
| 18:26:56 | <geekosaur> | it will, but it's very small and the stuff in it doesn't change much |
| 18:27:09 | <geekosaur> | when's the last time the implementation of lists changed? |
| 18:27:19 | <monochrom> | We are not supposed to add ghc-base to depends: |
| 18:27:44 | <davean> | I mean we already add ghc-prim, right? |
| 18:27:47 | <davean> | what you don't? |
| 18:28:02 | <zzz> | lol |
| 18:28:08 | <davean> | I mean *I* do~! |
| 18:28:16 | <geekosaur> | no, itss a transitive dependency of base |
| 18:28:19 | <davean> | zzz: seriosuly though, there are scripts to run tests and bump the deps, you can add it to your CI |
| 18:28:31 | <davean> | geekosaur: yah but I need to import its modules |
| 18:28:39 | <zzz> | davean: i can't force other people to do it though |
| 18:28:48 | <monochrom> | Oh heh I'm an idealist. Damn real world. >:) |
| 18:29:11 | <davean> | monochrom: i mean if people would put the improtant stuff anywhere but ghc-prim ... |
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| 18:29:54 | <davean> | zzz: well there is head.hackage if you want to trust the communty to bump stuff, but like its not inherently safe to bump stuff |
| 18:32:46 | <davean> | I will say even for large changes, doing my entire dependency set was a matter of a weekend when there were actually breaking changes. |
| 18:34:15 | <davean> | zzz: I tihnk cabal.project files will help you the most though |
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| 19:02:52 | <c_wraith> | monochrom: did anyone remind you it's tau day yet? this was relevant for some reason I've forgotten |
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| 20:26:34 | <cheater> | i baked a tau for tau day |
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| 21:17:08 | <andrea_r> | I think I found a bug in the GHC FFI implementation of the wrapper calling convention: if the wrapper has more than 5 arguments the produced function seems to be bugged. In my test example it will get a wrong StablePtr and dereferencing will produce a SIGSEG. |
| 21:17:20 | <andrea_r> | Two questions: is there a good soul willing to review my test case before I submit a bug report to the GHC team? The example can be found here: https://codeberg.org/andrea_rossato/ghc-ffi-wrapper |
| 21:17:37 | <andrea_r> | Second: I'm not able to inspect the GHC C code for the wrapper functions (I tried with -keep-tmp-files with no results). Any hints? |
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| 21:26:26 | <andrea_r> | I forgot: tested with ghc-9.8.2 |
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| 23:24:13 | <monochrom> | Oh noes, it's tau day! I forgot. |
| 23:24:34 | <monochrom> | But I ate a cookie, so that's fine. :) |
| 23:25:20 | <monochrom> | wine glass is also circular so that's also fine :) |
| 23:26:23 | geekosaur | sends monochrom an egg yolk and a lentil |
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