Logs on 2024-07-07 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 06:56:49 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: GHC.Generics has both `from` _and_ `to` ;) |
| 06:58:05 | <tomsmeding> | essentially what it gives you is a normalised kind-of-sum-of-products (but not quite) representation of a data _type_, with some additional metadata on the type level; people typically induct on this type-level structure using a type class |
| 06:58:31 | <tomsmeding> | whether you use this to take, transform, or produce data is up to you |
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| 07:00:26 | <tomsmeding> | my favourite method for getting familiar with what GHC.Generics really does, is doing `:k! Rep T` on some data types T in ghci, and doing `from x` for some values x |
| 07:00:29 | <tomsmeding> | and seeing what comes out |
| 07:01:00 | <tomsmeding> | the structure is sufficiently simple, and the metadata is sufficiently wordy, that you probably almost need no documentation at all any more at that point (if you're conversant with -XDataKinds) |
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| 12:28:42 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: I took a look at Generics again last night, and it seems like it might actually be a good fit, although all the information I need seems to be at the type level and I'm not sure what the best way would be to bring it down to the value level |
| 12:30:17 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: if you want info that's in a type-level string (i.e. a Symbol), and you're doing the induction via type classes, I wouldn't be surprised if you can just assert KnownSymbol on those |
| 12:30:29 | <tomsmeding> | (but I'm not sure I've tried that particular trick) |
| 12:31:50 | <tomsmeding> | ah there is even e.g. the Constructor class that asserts some stuff |
| 12:31:59 | <tomsmeding> | so yeah, KnownSymbol it is |
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| 12:34:58 | <hololeap> | this is what the Rep looks like: https://bpa.st/DE3Q |
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| 12:36:17 | <hololeap> | so I need some way to determine that e.g. ReinstallAtomsMode is an decendant of Portage, but not of the other constructors of PkgManager |
| 12:37:17 | <hololeap> | here's the ADT: https://bpa.st/FNXQ |
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| 12:38:12 | <hololeap> | I want to use this structure to automatically say "--mode=reinstall-atoms is only supported by the Portage package manager" |
| 12:38:50 | <hololeap> | (or at the very least, "--mode=reinstall-atoms is not supported by X") |
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| 12:43:53 | <hololeap> | maybe I can rig something up with TypeFamilies |
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| 13:29:34 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: once you have this information (that ReinstallAtomsMode is only a descendant of Portage and not of other things), what are you going to do with that information? |
| 13:29:57 | <tomsmeding> | is the idea that there is some partial function `ReinstallAtomsMode -> PkgManage` and you want to prevent it from failing? |
| 13:30:08 | <tomsmeding> | because if so, that sounds like that function should just return a Maybe :p |
| 13:30:33 | <tomsmeding> | thereby making this whole generics/whatever dance redundant |
| 13:31:26 | <tomsmeding> | the moment you're asking for "does this field occur somewhere in this data type", it sounds to me like the data structures are the wrong way round |
| 13:31:30 | <tomsmeding> | or something else is off |
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| 13:37:14 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: it's because the user is capable of doing --package-manager=paludis --mode=reinstall-atoms and they need to be told that it's unsupported |
| 13:39:07 | <hololeap> | currently I have a big case statement that checks for any incompatible options, but it's big and annoying and error prone |
| 13:40:33 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: okay sure, but what would happen if you'd just remove that case statement? |
| 13:40:39 | <tomsmeding> | would something crash? What would? |
| 13:40:47 | <tomsmeding> | Can you do the check _there_ instead of crashing? |
| 13:41:24 | <tomsmeding> | at the risk of cargo-culting, I'm trying to find out if this is a case where parse-don't-validate is applicable |
| 13:42:29 | <hololeap> | that's actually what I was following. I have a model of all the possible command line combinations, and I'm trying to "parse" it into the ADT that encodes all the valid mode combinations |
| 13:43:07 | <tomsmeding> | but then you need more than just the fact that ReinstallAtomsMode occurs within Portage, right? You also need a function that makes you a Portage given a ReinstallAtomsMode |
| 13:44:46 | <hololeap> | https://github.com/gentoo-haskell/haskell-updater/blob/master/Distribution/Gentoo/CmdLine.hs#L37-L99 |
| 13:45:06 | <hololeap> | https://github.com/gentoo-haskell/haskell-updater/blob/master/Distribution/Gentoo/Types/HUMode.hs |
| 13:46:29 | <tomsmeding> | I see, so you're doing exactly what I was suggesting, in a way |
| 13:46:51 | <hololeap> | the "reinstall-atoms" mode is something that only makes sense with the portage package manager, since it has the features to implement it. it's a special mode that I made with portage's features in mind |
| 13:47:49 | <tomsmeding> | have I been unnecessarily hung up on the phrasing of your original question, where you asked for how to "check if" instead of how to make a data type given one of the fields? |
| 13:48:00 | <tomsmeding> | s/make a/make a value of a/ |
| 13:48:08 | <hololeap> | maybe :p |
| 13:48:41 | <tomsmeding> | in any case this whole thing is only really relevant for ReinstallAtomsMode, right? The others are orthogonal |
| 13:50:55 | <hololeap> | mostly, yes. however there is also a --target=... option which has a couple that are only valid with --mode=reinstall-atoms |
| 13:51:01 | <tomsmeding> | right, I see |
| 13:53:01 | <hololeap> | and I was planning on adding a couple more for that mode, so the case statement is getting unruley. I suppose the best thing to do would be to make reinstall-atoms mode a separate command with its own options |
| 13:54:29 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: am I correct that a "target" (whether it's a Target, a CustomTargets, or a ReinstallAtomsTarget) is always eventually a part of the "mode" (be it RunMode or ReinstallAtomsMode)? |
| 13:55:10 | <tomsmeding> | if so, perhaps you can have a separate function first that tries to combine the cmdLineMode and the cmdLineTarget into `Either RunMode ReinstallAtomsMode` |
| 13:55:34 | <tomsmeding> | then you cut down on the combinatorial explosion |
| 13:57:03 | <hololeap> | yeah, that makes sense |
| 13:57:37 | <tomsmeding> | to me that feels like a more appropriate solution here than trying to infer semantical structure from the data types |
| 13:58:15 | <tomsmeding> | it's just a feeling that I have, but I suspect that the equivalence here (that ReinstallAtomsMode is a field of Portage precisely because it's valid with Portage) is somewhat accidental |
| 13:58:26 | <tomsmeding> | what if there's another data type in between? |
| 13:58:47 | <tomsmeding> | then suddenly the generics/Data/whatever magic would have to do inter-datatype analysis |
| 13:58:59 | <tomsmeding> | even though semantically, nothing really changed |
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| 14:00:15 | <hololeap> | I kinda want to try the magical solution, just for the challenge, but you make good points :) |
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| 14:00:30 | <tomsmeding> | there's sensibility, and then there's fun :p |
| 14:02:23 | <tomsmeding> | still, what would the magical solution even do, precisely? |
| 14:02:43 | <tomsmeding> | you'd still need to provide a mapping from PkgManager to the constructors of Mode.PkgManager |
| 14:03:41 | <tomsmeding> | one could write a function that creates a D from some T if there's only one constructor of D that has a field of type T (possibly nested in Either), and furthermore that constructor of D has no other fields |
| 14:03:51 | <tomsmeding> | that's a bit of Generics magic there |
| 14:04:17 | <tomsmeding> | but that really only replaces a very marginal bit of your code :p |
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| 17:37:58 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: this is a lot cleaner and I feel better about maintaining it: https://github.com/hololeap/haskell-updater/commit/b9147e65149c2dcc7e52126a60a4bc6b0c02201a |
| 17:41:32 | <hololeap> | it makes sense that the best structure for building the type mimics the shape of the type itself |
| 17:42:42 | <hololeap> | I still want to get my hands dirty with some generics, but maybe some other time :p |
| 17:49:44 | <monochrom> | Conversely, I should learn Data.Data properly too. :) |
| 17:50:10 | <hololeap> | I couldn't figure out the bit I was stuck on with Data.Data, btw |
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| 18:19:01 | <[exa]> | kinda wondering-- there are some reasonable tools for manipulating monad stacks nowadays. Is there anything cool to somehow manipulate the "compose stacks" of functors that are glued into higher-kinded data? |
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| 18:31:39 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: looks great! Building mimicing the structure of the output type makes some sense, but not necessarily always; it's nice when it does, though :) |
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| 18:50:04 | [exa] | finds a package with Barbies |
| 18:51:36 | <kuribas> | I am interested in joining Munihac. I could use my hasqlator library as a talk of project. |
| 18:51:49 | <kuribas> | I wonder what is eligible for projects? |
| 18:52:08 | <kuribas> | Would porting my library to postgresql qualify? |
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| 19:13:15 | <[exa]> | kuribas: there's a normal CfC here https://munihac.de/2024.html#cfc I guess you can just submit a proposa and you'll see |
| 19:16:22 | <[exa]> | afaik the most crucial eligibility criterium for the projects is how accessible they are for a random haskell person around. That usually comprises sensible docs and a clear motivation for a usecase that people can easily accept as their own. |
| 19:16:48 | <kuribas> | hmm, I might need to update my documentation before I submit then... |
| 19:17:20 | <kuribas> | I think it would be a nice project, because it's fairly easy, and a good exercise in composability. |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-07-07.