Logs on 2024-07-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:37:16 | <lain`> | i wish there was decent documentation for anything |
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| 02:16:07 | <probie> | lain`: What counts as decent documentation? |
| 02:19:19 | <lain`> | describing how something works in detail, documentation for each function saying what it's for if it's not obvious, examples of how to use the library in a realish situation, and a guide to learning the concepts of a library for the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about it |
| 02:19:25 | <lain`> | probie: ^ |
| 02:19:39 | <lain`> | s/for/from |
| 02:20:32 | <lain`> | this is good documentation, imo https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/orleans/grains/observers |
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| 02:24:25 | <lain`> | or this https://hexdocs.pm/ecto/getting-started.html |
| 02:30:36 | <joeyadams> | I'm going to go out on a limb and say Aeson's documentation is excellent from this standpoint: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson/docs/Data-Aeson.html |
| 02:33:57 | <lain`> | yeah, there are some exceptions |
| 02:34:05 | <joeyadams> | For sure. What bad example did you run across? |
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| 02:52:19 | <lain`> | it wasn't just one, but the lens and mtl documentation aren't ideal imo |
| 02:54:25 | <lain`> | it can be hard to find examples of even fairly simple/common things that aren't like 8 years old and don't compile anymore |
| 02:54:31 | <lain`> | in general |
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| 03:27:35 | <EvanR> | documentation is overrated, I want it all trashed and a single snippet that shows the library doing 1 useful but highly specific task |
| 03:27:55 | <EvanR> | as god intended |
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| 05:08:16 | <Axman6> | lain`: many libraries rely heavily on types, and lens is a good example of that; many of the types tell you a lot about what they could possibly do, without needing to explain much in words - but learning how to know what the types mean is something that takes time and use of the library. The basics of lens are trivial, but it is a library with a very broad range of applications, and in many cases a lot of depth too. |
| 05:12:41 | <lain`> | i mean, people won't nessecarily intuit the depth, even if it's intended to be used that way by the authors. |
| 05:13:28 | <lain`> | even if what a function literally does is understandable, why it's there and what place it has in the design isn't always obvious. i think that's the kind of thing that examples and tutorials can help with. |
| 05:18:27 | <lain`> | the lens readme doesn't even say what a lens *is*. |
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| 05:28:43 | <Axman6> | What is a lens? |
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| 05:29:17 | <Axman6> | it's not a thing that a README is going to be able to clearly explain, it's an idea that has taken up many hour long talks explaining |
| 05:29:43 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lain`: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.3.2/docs/Control-Lens-Lens.html#v:lens |
| 05:29:48 | <Axman6> | Some things are just complex ideas, and expecting a half page explanation that's useful for using something isn't always going to be possible |
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| 05:30:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Axman6: don't agree |
| 05:30:56 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The documentation of lens just isn't very good for beginners |
| 05:31:00 | <lain`> | i mean, you can look at the racket lens docs https://docs.racket-lang.org/lens/lens-intro.html#%28tech._lens%29 |
| 05:31:33 | <Axman6> | Sure, I'm not saying things can't be improved, but that's actually quite a lot of motivation needed to explain why they even should exist in the first place |
| 05:31:45 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And it wasn't written for beginners anyway. The API doesn't consider "beginner issues". It's just not the use case |
| 05:31:58 | <Axman6> | Yep |
| 05:32:07 | <lain`> | i mean |
| 05:32:14 | <lain`> | what does "beginner" even mean |
| 05:32:17 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But you can write a beginner friendly lens library |
| 05:32:22 | <lain`> | beginner to haskell? |
| 05:32:28 | <jackdk> | https://diataxis.fr/ has an interesting breakdown on the front page, differentiating "tutorials", "how-to guides", "explanations" and "reference material" |
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| 05:33:51 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lain`: Someone who isn't into the academic foundations of lenses. |
| 05:36:28 | <lain`> | i mean, i feel like that's kind of just an excuse to provide poor documentation |
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| 05:38:29 | <lain`> | it's not like doing so would make it harder for people who know a lot about lenses to use the library |
| 05:40:10 | <lain`> | if someone doesn't *want* to provide documentation aimed at people who don't follow the research of the subject, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that they could. and that many other things do. |
| 05:40:54 | <lain`> | and i think even for people who understand it, good documentation will make it easier to learn the library |
| 05:41:22 | <lain`> | even if someone can figure out how something works from looking at the types, that doesn't mean it won't take extra time compared to it being explained well alongside examples |
| 05:50:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The maintainer of lens gives away commit rights willingly. So you probably can contribute such documentation easily |
| 05:51:06 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But I doubt that will happen without an engaged contributor who cares about this specifically |
| 06:02:23 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> optics is a lens alternative with good docs, I've heard |
| 06:03:20 | <jackdk> | The main difficulty I have with optics is that I really like being able to provide lenses without incurring the `lens` dependency |
| 06:03:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> more generally I think some haskell libs with good docs do exist, |
| 06:06:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and making that attribute more visible (eg on hackage and flora and in reviews/ecosystem overviews) will help encourage that |
| 06:11:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * package reviews and ecosystem |
| 06:11:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oops, irc, sorry |
| 06:12:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> though with the latest bridge I seem to remember the policy was that matrix edits are fine |
| 06:12:57 | <jackdk> | They show up as additional messages but at least it's clear that it's an edit. |
| 06:15:01 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> jackdk: optics support van laarhoven too. So you can still do that as a library author |
| 06:15:33 | <jackdk> | so it means that VL optics are usable by both? good to know |
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| 06:22:37 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-vl-0.2.1/docs/Optics-VL.html |
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| 09:04:31 | <EvanR> | lain`, lens is an abstract thing, which means "what it is" might take one sentence and be incomprehensible, or take a whole blog post and not be entirely right. See "what's a monad" |
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| 09:08:59 | <danse-nr3> | simple lenses can be considered as dry "getters/setters/modifiers" |
| 09:11:43 | <mreh> | any Reflexers in the chat that use obelisk? |
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| 09:17:38 | <danse-nr3> | "reflexers"... that's not a query yielding many results |
| 09:18:55 | <mreh> | danse-nr3: It's a *sharp intake of breath* web framework. https://reflex-frp.org/ |
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| 09:19:36 | <danse-nr3> | i know what it is but thanks |
| 09:20:08 | <danse-nr3> | i just meant it's unlikely many of us specialise in that, you'd better target obelisk users probably |
| 09:20:35 | <mreh> | #reflex-frp isn't a thing on here, I might have to go over to the dark side |
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| 09:24:17 | <jackdk> | There's a pretty quiet channel for it |
| 09:25:57 | <danse-nr3> | segregation does not seem to work in too little groups does it |
| 09:27:28 | <jackdk> | I think spawning channels is best when you have a lot of chatter for the new topic |
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| 13:36:51 | <cheater> | mreh: what dark side? |
| 13:37:07 | <cheater> | Axman6: lens types absolutely suck. they tell me nothing |
| 13:37:15 | <cheater> | lens types are 100% meme types |
| 13:37:36 | <cheater> | they're a rolling joke any time someone brings up "self-documenting types" |
| 13:38:31 | <cheater> | running joke |
| 13:38:39 | <cheater> | wow that was an epic typo |
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| 13:44:09 | <cheater> | maerwald: what is VL useful for? |
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| 14:00:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> lens type are selfdocumenting, if you understand how lenses are built |
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| 14:02:07 | <ncf> | most combinators with confusing type signatures have human-readable types spelt out in the documentation |
| 14:02:37 | <ncf> | like uh... confusing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.3.2/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:confusing |
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| 15:38:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> is there a functional parser pattern that is not a recursive descent parser? |
| 15:38:52 | <sprout> | there are parser combinator libraries that build bottom-up parsers |
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| 15:40:56 | <EvanR> | see also monoidal parsers |
| 15:41:11 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty for references! |
| 15:41:18 | ← | robotsnowfall parts (~robotsnow@user/robotsnowfall) () |
| 15:41:39 | <sprout> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/grammar-combinators |
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| 15:42:15 | <sprout> | not really parser combinators since it's difficult to lift over a binding, but close enough for whatevery you need probably |
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| 17:11:28 | <monochrom> | Paraphrasing a type expression is worse than just showing the type expression. Generally most expressions. Try paraphrasing "sqrt((a+b)^2+c^2) + 4" for example. |
| 17:12:23 | <monochrom> | OTOH even with a polymorphic type, it can be difficult to deduce what it does. |
| 17:13:35 | <monochrom> | This is what I do. When I teach the "map" function, I begin with a semi-symbolic example: "map f [a, b, c] = [f a, f b, f c]". Humans are great at extrapolating when you give them good examples. Use that. |
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| 17:17:11 | <danse-nr3> | you are paraphrasing with othe formulae basically. Makes sense |
| 17:17:18 | <EvanR> | map f [a, b, c] = f a : map f [b, c] |
| 17:17:34 | <danse-nr3> | i like monochrom's one better |
| 17:18:03 | <EvanR> | it's easier to understand but not generally what would match operational semantics |
| 17:19:06 | <danse-nr3> | right well depends the focus of what one is explaining at a given moment |
| 17:20:23 | <monochrom> | My motivation is from the extremist Dijkstra's "a formula is worth a thousand pictures". You don't have to believe that (I mostly believe it, but I know exceptions), but the other extreme is to enshrine natural language prose which is what everyone else does which is clearly broken. |
| 17:21:10 | <danse-nr3> | i mean communication is a matter of circumstance, there is no "one size fits all" |
| 17:21:56 | <monochrom> | Yeah. An exception is "sort alphabetically" is way better than formalizing it. :) |
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| 17:22:47 | <monochrom> | But it is because the audience has experience with sorting. You build upon what they already know. |
| 17:23:27 | <bwe> | Does ghc tell me any functions defined in current module not being used? If not, what's the best practice your recommend? |
| 17:24:23 | <ncf> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using-warnings.html#ghc-flag--Wunused-binds |
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| 18:10:51 | <mauke> | bwe: use explicit export lists in your modules and compile with ghc -Wall |
| 18:11:31 | <mauke> | can confirm that HLS definitely detects them as well |
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| 18:39:48 | <EvanR> | a formula is worth a million words. Which is more words than there are in the dictionary |
| 18:40:13 | <EvanR> | so formulas aren't worth as much as you think |
| 18:45:43 | <danse-nr3> | huh maybe that includes other languages |
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| 18:56:30 | <danse-nr3> | people agreed upon math across languages after all |
| 18:57:45 | <EvanR> | to an extent, like a "positive" number in french is >= 0 |
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| 18:59:09 | <danse-nr3> | didn't know the sign of 0 was a national thing |
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| 19:32:52 | <bwe> | mauke: yep, I'll follow that! |
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| 23:27:28 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone know of an actual backend's source code somewhere i can look at |
| 23:27:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> in haskell |
| 23:29:36 | <Axman6> | backend of what? |
| 23:31:19 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> web page |
| 23:31:49 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> webserver/db/effect system |
| 23:31:55 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> +with |
| 23:32:57 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * system/etc |
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| 23:39:36 | <davean> | Many of the xkcd April 1st comics are open sourced. They're all rush jobs but they're open sourced. I wouldn't call them ideal examples - nothing put together with a few days from concept to release is anything but shortcuts, but they're out there. |
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| 23:47:38 | <cheater> | they're in haskell? |
| 23:47:48 | <cheater> | davean: |
| 23:48:26 | <davean> | Yes? |
| 23:48:37 | <cheater> | oh cool |
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| 23:59:28 | <xacktm> | there's 3 backend haskell examples for http://realworld.io |
All times are in UTC on 2024-07-08.