Logs on 2024-07-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:02:15 | <dmj`> | there should be a THIH that uses the constraint solving approach |
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| 10:21:27 | <tromp> | what is the type of Church numeral 2 in CoC (Calculus of Constructions) ? Is it Nat = forall(a : *) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a ? |
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| 10:25:14 | <ncf> | all church numerals have the same type |
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| 10:39:46 | <tromp> | got disconnected; hope I didn't miss an answer... |
| 10:40:53 | <ncf> | all church numerals have the same type |
| 10:51:56 | <tromp> | i know |
| 10:52:17 | <tromp> | is that the correct type? |
| 10:52:53 | <ncf> | sure |
| 10:53:25 | <tromp> | is that short for forall(a : *) -> forall(_ : (forall(_ : a -> a)) -> forall(_ : a) -> a ? |
| 10:54:31 | <tromp> | i.e. 4 uses of the Pi constructor? |
| 10:55:49 | <ncf> | yes |
| 10:56:40 | <ncf> | (a : *) → (_ : (_ : a) → a) → (_ : a) → a |
| 10:59:14 | <tromp> | Thanks. Does anyone know of a Haskell implementation of Loader's Number? https://googology.fandom.com/wiki/Loader%27s_number |
| 11:03:16 | <ncf> | that would be cool, but i don't |
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| 13:07:06 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> Why are messages from ncf shown as coming from "haskellbridge" on the Matrix side? |
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| 13:17:54 | <ncf> | um, because i'm on irc? |
| 13:19:06 | <ncf> | test |
| 13:20:20 | <ncf> | yeah i guess that's weird. geekosaur? |
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| 13:31:15 | <EvanR> | test |
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| 14:29:06 | <geekosaur> | "view raw" says your client is sending notices instead of messages |
| 14:29:23 | <geekosaur> | …wait, but it just did that to mine too |
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| 14:30:25 | <geekosaur> | uh oh |
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| 14:30:27 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
| 14:31:04 | <tomsmeding> | test |
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| 14:31:21 | <geekosaur> | foo |
| 14:31:45 | <geekosaur> | working now |
| 14:31:57 | <ncf> | 🐝 |
| 14:32:15 | <mauke> | what happen? |
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| 14:32:24 | <geekosaur> | dunno |
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| 14:32:33 | <ncf> | yay |
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| 14:33:10 | <geekosaur> | I did restart it a couple days ago, maybe they had a bad update (I'm running from their `latest` docker container) |
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| 14:48:53 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone got suggestions for declaring nested records to parse a nested json object? any extension that would allow me to declare a single nested record data type instead of needing to make a new data type for each subsequent nested record? |
| 14:49:18 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> e.g. i'd like to make a data type that models |
| 14:49:18 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/fJODeknIoqILfAADEYDhRSUD (27 lines) |
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| 14:52:11 | <mauke> | with aeson, wouldn't that just be custom FromJSON/ToJSON instances? |
| 14:52:33 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> mauke: yeah but i'd like to declare it in a single data type |
| 14:52:40 | <mauke> | except you don't get "nested records" on the haskell side |
| 14:52:50 | <mauke> | you can do it with a flat record, though |
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| 14:54:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> mauke: yeah purely as a question of presentation i wanted to avoid multiple flat records |
| 14:54:47 | <tomsmeding> | what would the desired set of data types be? |
| 14:54:56 | <tomsmeding> | if you don't want nested records |
| 14:54:59 | <mauke> | ... multiple? |
| 14:55:14 | <tomsmeding> | or is it "I want the normal thing but I want to type less code" |
| 14:55:50 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> mauke: yeah, one record for the "response" data type, and another for each nested record within "response": "identity", "stock", "dimensions", etc. |
| 14:56:53 | <tomsmeding> | there is no extension that will create that set of data types for you from some smaller description of the structure |
| 14:57:05 | <tomsmeding> | you could write some TemplateHaskell and make it though :p |
| 14:57:16 | <cheater> | i was just going to say that TH is one such extension |
| 14:57:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah might be a template haskell question, i have multiple of these i'd like to define. really i just want to have a nice self-contained type declaration i can look at, it's not for any other reason |
| 14:57:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> will look up how i might do this with TH, ty |
| 14:58:18 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.2.3.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#g:2 |
| 14:58:28 | <cheater> | can it be you're just not used to what haskell looks like |
| 14:58:43 | <cheater> | sometimes the best hack is no hack at all |
| 14:58:56 | <cheater> | keep doing things the way god intended |
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| 15:00:12 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> heheh it's possible, but i enjoy typescript's self-contained presentation of this sort of type |
| 15:00:15 | <ash3en> | what is the TH situation? is this not needed magic hackery causing headaches or superior meta programming for pros? |
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| 15:01:05 | <ash3en> | or rephrased: is TH elegant? |
| 15:02:19 | <tomsmeding> | that is in the eye of the beholder :) |
| 15:02:56 | <mauke> | yesn't |
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| 15:07:07 | <ash3en> | intuively it *feels* like a liability and breaking haskell concepts. but otoh it may use haskell to it's fullest! arghh help lol |
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| 15:13:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> there's an anonymous records library that's being maintained |
| 15:13:55 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> "large-anon" |
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| 15:22:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> found someone who already did the work: https://github.com/brandonchinn178/aeson-schemas |
| 15:23:01 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> bless 'em |
| 15:30:41 | <EvanR> | last resort TH is also bad because of compile times |
| 15:30:57 | <tomsmeding> | what is "last resort TH"? |
| 15:31:40 | <EvanR> | just TH |
| 15:32:09 | <EvanR> | metaprogramming = missing language feature |
| 15:32:36 | <tomsmeding> | or experimental language feature |
| 15:32:55 | <tomsmeding> | or language feature that would be nice but would unnecessarily burden the maintainers of the language implementation for something that only you use |
| 15:33:07 | <tomsmeding> | metaprogramming _is_ a language feature |
| 15:33:31 | <tomsmeding> | to the extent that various languages do metaprogramming in vastly different ways |
| 15:34:19 | <tomsmeding> | Rust even has two: macro_rules! and procedural macros |
| 15:35:24 | <EvanR> | it covers all missing language features |
| 15:35:45 | <EvanR> | but not necessarily in the best and most efficient way |
| 15:35:45 | <tomsmeding> | no, there are language features that you cannot cover with most existing metaprogramming designs |
| 15:35:57 | <EvanR> | like what |
| 15:36:08 | <tomsmeding> | IO from a language that doesn't have IO? |
| 15:36:21 | <EvanR> | how does this apply to TH |
| 15:36:28 | <tomsmeding> | you were talking about metaprogramming in general :p |
| 15:36:45 | <EvanR> | yeah there is crippled metaprogramming |
| 15:36:51 | <EvanR> | like C preprocessor |
| 15:37:05 | <tomsmeding> | no matter how good your metaprogramming, if the base language does not have IO, you're not going to metaprogram yourself to IO |
| 15:37:19 | <EvanR> | by IO are you just talking about a type system |
| 15:37:35 | <EvanR> | clearly most languages have I/O |
| 15:37:38 | <tomsmeding> | no I mean stuff like lua where if the host does not give you IO libraries, you _cannot do IO_ |
| 15:38:02 | <tomsmeding> | which is the point of lua as an embedded language, the host can restrict what kind of side effects are possible |
| 15:38:18 | <tomsmeding> | by simply not giving you the functions which would perform those side effects |
| 15:38:21 | <EvanR> | lua has I/O unless you go out of your way to cripple it and move it to the host |
| 15:38:32 | <EvanR> | but I don't know if this matters to the argument |
| 15:38:46 | <tomsmeding> | I took issue with your blanket statements that metaprogramming fixes all problems :p |
| 15:38:53 | <EvanR> | it doesn't really have metaprogramming |
| 15:39:18 | <tomsmeding> | and even assuming that you're in a turing-complete language with side effects etc, you could perhaps theoretically map any kind of code to whatever you want it to mean |
| 15:39:30 | <tomsmeding> | but it's not like that's practical or a decent way to implement a missing language feature :p |
| 15:39:39 | <EvanR> | that's what I was saying |
| 15:39:52 | <tomsmeding> | then why do you say "it covers all missing language features" |
| 15:39:57 | <tomsmeding> | technically correct, maybe |
| 15:40:27 | <tomsmeding> | still, I could want interactive hole filling in haskell |
| 15:40:28 | <EvanR> | stop argeeing! |
| 15:40:32 | <tomsmeding> | is that a language feature or a compiler feature? |
| 15:40:39 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 15:40:59 | <tomsmeding> | as in, "technically correct if you choose unhelpful definitions of the words in question" |
| 15:41:13 | <tomsmeding> | anyway this discussion got longer than it was meant to lol |
| 15:41:36 | <tomsmeding> | sorry for the rant |
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| 15:52:51 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's your preferred approach to refinement types in haskell? |
| 15:52:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> liquid haskell? |
| 15:54:18 | <EvanR> | smart constructors |
| 15:55:00 | <EvanR> | liquid haskell is another language |
| 16:05:24 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: hm, you can't call these in type declarations |
| 16:05:50 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> +(if you want to use refinement types to declare other types) |
| 16:05:59 | <EvanR> | in liquid haskell? |
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| 16:06:24 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> no in standard haskell |
| 16:08:37 | <EvanR> | haskell doesn't have refinement types |
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| 17:22:54 | <amjoseph> | tromp thanks for posting that! would never have expected that the [sequence whose limit is the] proof-theoretic ordinal for CoC can be computed by such a short program. i'm a bit surprised, however, that they didn't *prove* that it actually computes that. you should be able to prove it in coq since iirc CiC has strictly greater consistency strength. anyways, TIL; thanks. |
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| 17:25:36 | <amjoseph> | tromp (also) maybe try asking sridhar ramesh? |
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| 17:55:51 | <mauke> | :t \x y -> ?f x y <= EQ |
| 17:55:52 | <lambdabot> | (?f::t1 -> t2 -> Ordering) => t1 -> t2 -> Bool |
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| 18:54:53 | <stefan-__> | is it possible to check if a FilePath exists (and if not show an error) when extracting CLI params via optparse-applicative? |
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| 18:59:06 | <mud> | stefan-__: Not saying you definitely shouldn't do that, but: be careful of the pattern of check-first for files. It leads to race conditions, things can change between when you check and when you actually use it. |
| 18:59:23 | <mud> | You're usually better off just dealing with the error _as_ you use the file, because you're going to have to do it there anyway. |
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| 19:21:58 | <EvanR> | boldly open the file and if there is a reasonable thing to do other than crash in case of a problem, catch the specific exception |
| 19:24:01 | <EvanR> | or in a more complicated application, check the result of the async thread tasked with doing something with that file |
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| 20:29:17 | <stefan-__> | mud + EvanR: thanks, maybe this even better fits separation of concerns, in the way that optparse-applicative is really only used for CLI param parsing |
| 20:30:23 | <raehik> | I want to sort a list-like `f a`. I have an `a -> a -> Ordering`. Is there a way I can do this polymorphically over `f`? |
| 20:31:07 | <ncf> | raehik: https://elvishjerricco.github.io/2017/03/23/applicative-sorting.html ? |
| 20:31:37 | <mreh> | what about using Foldable? |
| 20:32:30 | <raehik> | mreh: Foldable is for folding operations. I don't want to fold the list to a single value |
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| 20:32:44 | <raehik> | I can't see an `f a -> f a` operation in Foldable |
| 20:32:47 | <mreh> | :t toList |
| 20:32:48 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> [a] |
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| 20:33:10 | <mreh> | half way there |
| 20:33:29 | <ncf> | you obviously need Traversable |
| 20:33:45 | <ncf> | or something equivalent |
| 20:34:14 | <raehik> | mreh: this lets me sort `f a`, but at the cost of going between List, which isn't really what I was looking for |
| 20:34:27 | <mreh> | raehik: listen to ncf |
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| 20:34:49 | <raehik> | ncf: thanks for that, looks interesting! |
| 20:34:52 | <mreh> | You want to substitute elements in the functor for each other, traversable sounds like a good fit to me |
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| 20:38:00 | <raehik> | my thought process was "what if I had a `Vector a` and wanted to sort it quickly", but... I can't see a sort op in the vector package. huh |
| 20:39:34 | mreh | wonders how does one update a collection using multiple concurrent `Event (f a -> f a)`s in reflex... |
| 20:39:46 | <mreh> | raehik: what flavour of Vector? |
| 20:40:05 | <mreh> | and what does quickly mean? |
| 20:40:16 | <raehik> | Any, say Primitive |
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| 20:40:53 | <raehik> | quickly as in init a new vector of the same size and write into it |
| 20:41:39 | <mreh> | I would just convert between Vector a and [a] and back again probably |
| 20:41:53 | <raehik> | perhaps stream fusion permits simply going through List |
| 20:42:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> `vector-algorithms` has fast sorts |
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| 20:42:56 | <raehik> | Ah! yes, fantastic. I knew of that pkg too haha |
| 20:43:03 | <raehik> | it does in-place sorts so hard to Hoogle |
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| 20:55:28 | <raehik> | I've used mutable vectors before and I still had to search around to confirm how to do basic things (`modify`)... |
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| 21:03:06 | <raehik> | it'd also be nice if vector-algorithms endorsed certain sorts for different usages. I had to go through each module to check docs instead. perhaps that's the intended experience but felt a bit long-winded |
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| 21:09:46 | <EvanR> | haskell is fairly far down the road from "just sort my list-like thing I don't care how you do it" |
| 21:10:00 | <EvanR> | starting with how there's no generic "list-like" data structure |
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| 21:10:30 | <EvanR> | you have to decide what string, what number, what whatever based on whether you're optimizing engineering effort or performance for the task |
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| 21:13:43 | <raehik> | EvanR: Right, I agree. vector-algos gives many options for sorting |
| 21:14:20 | <raehik> | I was lamenting the lack of any package preamble or introduction. I don't want a button that says "just use this", I was hoping for a general overview |
| 21:15:21 | <raehik> | (perhaps you were looking at earlier messages, I was specifically keen on Vectors now) |
| 21:17:20 | <monochrom> | There is the issue of having heard of vector-algorithms in the first place. But suppose we're past that, then maybe you haven't seen the life hack of: click on any module, then click on "Index". |
| 21:18:03 | <monochrom> | BTW I also wish the "Index" link were on the package front page on hackage. |
| 21:20:04 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: it is |
| 21:20:09 | <tomsmeding> | [Index] under Modules |
| 21:20:49 | <monochrom> | Ugh OK now I see but it's ant-size that's why I never saw it. |
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| 21:21:22 | <tomsmeding> | I myself am quite partial to Quick Jump, which is also brought up if you press the 's' key on the keyboard on any module page (and, for many packages -- but apparently not this one -- on the package front page) |
| 21:21:53 | <tomsmeding> | I found the link by searching for "index" on the page :p |
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| 21:26:43 | <raehik> | monochrom: if that's the intended experience then all good I suppose. individual modules have great docs but the user is apparently expected to click around until they're happy with the algo they find |
| 21:27:23 | <raehik> | I was hoping for some benches and high-level notes. not actively complaining or searching for a fix |
| 21:27:32 | <monochrom> | I don't think it's intended. But I think people trust too much into hierarchies. |
| 21:28:00 | <raehik> | monochrom: as in module hierarchies? unclear what you mean |
| 21:30:09 | <monochrom> | OK let me describe my own dilemma. I teach multiple courses, over multiple semesters. Should my directory tree structure be "semester/course" or should it be "course/semester"? (Answer: "tree" is already wrong right there. Should be a matrix.) |
| 21:31:41 | <monochrom> | I even sometimes torment my C-and-Unix students with: "The prof was using the former but now changes his mind and wants to migrate to the latter! Write a shell script for that..." |
| 21:31:43 | <raehik> | you're absolutely right I hate hierarchies too. we need a filesystem based on tag matrices NOW |
| 21:33:31 | <raehik> | the current answer is, sadly, an overabundance of symlinks |
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