Logs on 2024-07-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 11:08:12 | <kqr> | I remember a long time ago someone suggested an `ensure p x = guard p >> pure x` – but I don't see it used very often. Why is that? Am I doing something wrong if I find it convenient rather often? |
| 11:08:22 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40983500 Libera channel sizes (#haskell is number 34 with 551 members) |
| 11:12:00 | <Leary> | kqr: I see (and use) `guard p $> x` often enough. It just doesn't really need a name. |
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| 12:06:39 | <kqr> | Leary, Now $> seems like a good operator I hadn't thought about in a while! That certainly makes it convenient enough without the alias |
| 12:08:03 | <kqr> | Leary, That also relaxes the type from monad to applicative, so that's a bonus. |
| 12:13:42 | <tomsmeding> | kqr: you could have done that relaxation with your version as well if you replace >> with *> :) |
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| 12:24:18 | <kqr> | I'm learning so much today! |
| 12:24:46 | <kqr> | I'm assuming *> and >> are equal in power, but Can *> do something that $> cannot? |
| 12:27:47 | <kqr> | Oh, of course, *> sequences in a second applicative, whereas $> only takes a pure value |
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| 13:54:27 | <cheater> | does anyone here work at github or know anyone at github? i made a popular project that attracted some trolls who reported it and now it's been taken offline. i'm looking for help getting it reinstated. |
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| 14:11:44 | <Maxdamantus> | cheater: in case it helps, there's an unofficial channel ##github and the topic mentions the link https://support.github.com/request/landing |
| 14:12:53 | <Maxdamantus> | or rather, https://support.github.com/request (dunno if there's a difference, not logged in on my current device) |
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| 14:32:29 | <cheater> | yeah i already reached out via the official support |
| 14:32:30 | <cheater> | thanks though |
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| 18:56:44 | <mauke> | data T a b = L a | R b | LR a b -- is there a module that provides a canonical type like this? |
| 18:57:35 | <monochrom> | IIRC "these". I'll check again. |
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| 18:58:08 | <monochrom> | Yeah, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/these |
| 19:06:00 | <mauke> | cool, version 1 changed the API 5 years ago, but the documentation was never updated |
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| 20:21:02 | <phma> | If I use stack rather than cabal, can I blow away my .cabal directory? All the subdirectories of .cabal are from 2021. |
| 20:21:30 | <monochrom> | How about the files inside, are they also that old too? :) |
| 20:21:41 | <dminuoso> | phma: You can always nuke your .cabal directory. |
| 20:21:46 | <dminuoso> | Even while you use cabal. |
| 20:22:29 | <dminuoso> | Worst case you just spend some time recompiling packages one more time. |
| 20:22:52 | <phma> | Sep 4 2023 ghc-8.6.5 |
| 20:22:55 | <mauke> | where is that directory? |
| 20:23:07 | <monochrom> | And redownloading index.tar (hundreds of MB) |
| 20:23:19 | <phma> | ~/.cabal/store |
| 20:23:36 | <monochrom> | 2023 is literally "yesteryear" :) |
| 20:24:35 | <monochrom> | OK the short answer is you can erase .cabal (unless you have customized config and don't want to lose it) |
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| 21:22:44 | <tomsmeding> | it's even easier if you just remove ~/.cabal/store because that's the biggest space eater it doesn't even contain any config |
| 21:23:18 | <c_wraith> | beware... that isn't the path anymore on XDG systems |
| 21:23:32 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, that doesn't make it any less valid to delete it |
| 21:23:35 | <c_wraith> | cabal splits its files over like five XDG entries |
| 21:23:42 | <c_wraith> | for some reason that's "better" |
| 21:23:54 | <monochrom> | No, index.tar is the biggest space eater. >:) |
| 21:24:06 | <tomsmeding> | as far as I know, cabal continues using old-style ~/.cabal if that exists, and I ensure that it exists lol |
| 21:24:24 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: okay you also get to delete ~/.cabal/packages then :p |
| 21:24:58 | <tomsmeding> | (I wasn't lying about my situation, in any case; my 'packages' is 1.4G whereas my 'store' is 39G) |
| 21:25:14 | <tomsmeding> | (I sometimes compile stuff with Dependencies) |
| 21:26:32 | <monochrom> | There was a time I instructed students to use cabal-install on their school account so that they can use HUnit for example. So they had to do an initial "cabal update". Some students reported mysterious failures, and the error messages did not say what's wrong. |
| 21:26:47 | <monochrom> | While other students had no trouble. |
| 21:26:51 | tomsmeding | expects ENOSPC |
| 21:27:41 | <monochrom> | Eventually a clever student observed that it's correlated to disk quota. And that was even like 5 years ago when index.tar was merely 500MB. Coincidentally that's more or less their disk quota. |
| 21:27:46 | <tomsmeding> | why does cabal even unpack index.tar from the .gz? I thought .tar files weren't seekable, so unpacking it doesn't really give you any new functionality |
| 21:27:57 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 21:28:33 | <monochrom> | So yeah students who already had other files hit the issue, other students had just enough space and no issue. |
| 21:28:44 | <dolio> | Obviously speed. |
| 21:29:07 | <tomsmeding> | oh I see that cabal does indeede create a separate .tar.idx file... |
| 21:29:17 | <dolio> | Reading the unpacked tar from storage is so much faster than decompressing a much smaller thing in memory. :þ |
| 21:29:39 | <tomsmeding> | it is if you can seek to the thing you need immediately, and the .idx file adjacent to it seems to suggest that that's what cabal is doing |
| 21:29:42 | <tomsmeding> | seeking in a .gz is folly |
| 21:29:48 | <tomsmeding> | (generally) |
| 21:31:58 | <tomsmeding> | someone (tm) needs to do the engineering of serialising a cabal file to just the bits necessary for solving, and then update hackage and cabal to use this packed registry of packages |
| 21:32:40 | <tomsmeding> | index.tar.gz is 118MB currently, surely you can get smaller if you skip all the comments etc., even if you just compress per-file instead of everything together |
| 21:33:10 | <monochrom> | Although, why does it keep the gz file? |
| 21:33:14 | <tomsmeding> | you could even use zstd's feature of learning a dictionary on the whole dataset, and then compressing each individual (packed-serialised) cabal file with that wisdom dictionary |
| 21:33:46 | <tomsmeding> | surely you can get that whole (seekable!) thing below 118MB?! |
| 21:34:04 | <tomsmeding> | (I dunno, keeping the .gz seems pointless to me too) |
| 21:35:22 | <tomsmeding> | zstd compresses 01-index.tar to 92MB in less time than gzip produces 118MB |
| 21:35:37 | <tomsmeding> | it's not like this stuff needs to be backwards compatible |
| 21:38:13 | <tomsmeding> | (like, I appreciate staying with tried-and-trusted older compression tools for things where backwards compatibility is a concern, if you don't want to take the cost of switching to a new-fangled better tool if that incurs the risk of having to switch back later due to issues. But cabal can do what it wishes here, no such concerns) |
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| 21:40:10 | <EvanR> | yes, use xz compression instead |
| 21:40:15 | <EvanR> | and be hacked! |
| 21:40:20 | <tomsmeding> | hah |
| 21:41:08 | <tomsmeding> | one the one hand, there's a point; on the other hand, the _majority_ of haskell packages are more weakly maintained than xz was |
| 21:42:19 | <EvanR> | weakly maintained whatever that means is related to exploits how |
| 21:43:05 | <tomsmeding> | if you have >=2 maintainers with time and energy to devote to the project, it's less likely to be overtaken by a new malicious co-maintainer |
| 21:43:21 | <tomsmeding> | less _likely_, sure, but there's definitely a difference |
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| 21:44:28 | <tomsmeding> | what I meant with "weakly maintained" is essentially "(number of hours per week the maintiners can spend focused on the project) is very low" |
| 21:44:56 | <juri_> | focused on the project? there is ai to do that now. i am now only focused on AI. |
| 21:45:22 | <tomsmeding> | note that I'm not complaining about haskell packages here -- I expect the same (many packages are not very actively mained) is true in other languages too |
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| 21:45:41 | <monochrom> | I focus on myself. Is that OK? #TypeInType |
| 21:46:15 | tomsmeding | assumes juri_ is being sarcastic, but can't quite be sure |
| 21:47:45 | <juri_> | tomsmeding: only half joking. dropped my haskell projects. looking forward to returning to haskell soon, from an AI angle. |
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| 21:49:18 | <tomsmeding> | focusing on AI is fine, as long as you're aware of what exactly you're doing and how these things work. It's the "we have AI to solve $PROBLEM for us" that I was worried about :p |
| 21:49:53 | <juri_> | oh, no, we have AI because we aparently wanted more problems. |
| 21:50:07 | <juri_> | and boy, have we delivered. |
| 21:50:08 | <tomsmeding> | (AI is the new regex?) |
| 21:50:27 | <glguy> | it's not quite as powerful as regex |
| 21:50:29 | <geekosaur> | "now you have two problems" taken to a new level |
| 21:51:57 | <tomsmeding> | glguy: I feel like that could be the motto of what "AI" means these days |
| 21:52:24 | <geekosaur> | these days? |
| 21:52:51 | <juri_> | it's a good tool, used properly. just like make, sed, and haskell. |
| 21:53:01 | <tomsmeding> | "AI" was a broad term in the past, now apparently it refers to LLMs only :p |
| 21:53:01 | <juri_> | looking forward to using them all at the same time. |
| 21:53:28 | <dolio> | That's not true. |
| 21:54:01 | <dolio> | It's even more broad and meaningless now, because people just put "AI" on their product with no meaning. :þ |
| 21:54:04 | <geekosaur> | I'm seeing continued research into other aspects of AI |
| 21:54:07 | <juri_> | oh, it's also the greatest theft since the americas were colonized, but.. |
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| 22:04:12 | <monochrom> | I too am against saying the broad "AI" for the specific "LLM". But people already have been saying the super-broad "computer" for the super-specific "PCs running Windows" for decades. It's a lost cause. |
| 22:05:02 | <monochrom> | Fortunately, in RTS gaming circles, "play against AI" exists too. >:) |
| 22:05:38 | <dolio> | I thought a computer is a mathematician engaging in formal symbol manipulation. |
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| 22:06:33 | <EvanR> | I thought the computer was the CRT monitor |
| 22:06:55 | <monochrom> | Consider also "engineers". |
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| 22:08:47 | <monochrom> | Hell, "math" for "at-most-real-number arithmetic", too. |
| 22:08:56 | <monochrom> | "Do the math." |
| 22:09:19 | <dolio> | Nobody does real number arithmetic. |
| 22:09:50 | <EvanR> | I learned a square root on paper algorithm once |
| 22:10:10 | <monochrom> | I wrote some Haskell code for it too :) |
| 22:10:18 | <dolio> | See, that's a special, easy case. |
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| 22:13:29 | <monochrom> | Darn, I didn't write some Haskelll code for it. I wrote psuedo-Algol. |
| 22:14:09 | <monochrom> | Oh wait, it has "yield". I wrote pseudo-Algol-with-Yield *facepalm* |
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| 22:23:21 | <geekosaur> | a computer is someone who operates a room-sized calculator 😛 |
| 22:23:56 | <sprout> | a computer traditionally was a cleric that did computations |
| 22:24:02 | <sprout> | often a woman |
| 22:24:22 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone ever use a ring in haskell |
| 22:25:00 | <EvanR> | Int with addition? |
| 22:25:05 | <EvanR> | and multiplication |
| 22:25:13 | <EvanR> | it's a good one |
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| 22:26:11 | <juri_> | thirdofmay18081814goya: I abused a list, making it function as a ring. |
| 22:26:33 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> but like an interesting one |
| 22:26:53 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> cool |
| 22:27:10 | <juri_> | i did mapping operations with it: mapWithFollower, mapWithNeighbors, and mapWithPredecessor. |
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| 22:27:48 | <juri_> | that way i could process a "not ring", and get a "not ring" as the result. |
| 22:29:10 | <juri_> | https://github.com/Haskell-Things/HSlice/blob/master/Graphics/Slicer/Math/Definitions.hs#L217 |
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| 22:44:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> juri_: neat! thanks for link |
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| 23:09:32 | <monochrom> | Ugh, so ring as in cyclic list, circular buffer? |
| 23:10:53 | <monochrom> | This is why I wrote https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html #11 |
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| 23:13:08 | <c_wraith> | oh man. If someone says "ring" in here, I just automatically assume they mean the algebraic structure. |
| 23:13:54 | <monochrom> | Among movie junkies, The Ring has a horror vibe. >:) |
| 23:14:38 | <monochrom> | And among Japanese movie junkies, it has a "watered down Hollywoodized vibe, not as good as the original" vibe, too. >:) |
| 23:15:09 | <monochrom> | This is what's wrong with meaningful words. Everyone has a different meaning! |
| 23:15:21 | <geekosaur> | I made that comment in the matrix channel… (re algebraic structure) |
| 23:15:31 | <monochrom> | "The best thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" |
| 23:16:05 | <monochrom> | Consider even how among mathematicians, 0 may or may not be a "natural number". |
| 23:16:29 | <monochrom> | (But thank God at least they agree on what "0" is. Maybe? :) ) |
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| 23:25:01 | <monochrom> | A decade ago someone uploaded a package to hackage called "api" and posted in haskell-cafe to announce it and said it's a package for APIs. |
| 23:25:21 | <monochrom> | I was like "ugh at least have the courtesy to call it web API". |
| 23:25:40 | <monochrom> | And this circles back to calling LLM "AI", too. |
| 23:29:27 | geekosaur | remembers that |
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