Logs on 2024-07-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:07:18 | <Unicorn_Princess> | is there any way to assign priority to resolve functional dependencies? e.g. if two instance declarations match, to resolve the conflict by picking a preferred one |
| 02:09:30 | <davean> | There is some stuff for that, but if you've got that its quite possible you have a serious issue. Can you give some more details about when you run into this? |
| 02:12:40 | <Unicorn_Princess> | oh there might be a cleaner way. i just have to specify that two types must differ, then there should be no conflict |
| 02:13:02 | <geekosaur> | "just" |
| 02:13:20 | <Unicorn_Princess> | such a simple thing should be, well, simple, right? ; ; |
| 02:13:24 | <geekosaur> | ("must be the same" can be done in the typechecker; "must be different" requires a runtime witness) |
| 02:13:53 | <geekosaur> | the typechecker can handle "can be different", though) |
| 02:14:37 | <Unicorn_Princess> | 'can be different' is just the default, innit? e.g. data Foo a b |
| 02:14:45 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 02:15:08 | <geekosaur> | but if you want to express that "b" cannot be equal to "a", you have a problem |
| 02:15:30 | <davean> | The thing about a functional dependency is its *functional* it points to *exactly one* |
| 02:15:44 | <davean> | If it didn't, it wouldn't be a functional dependency. |
| 02:15:51 | <davean> | it woudl just be a dependency |
| 02:16:05 | <davean> | So more details would really help |
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| 02:18:19 | <Unicorn_Princess> | working on minimal example |
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| 02:23:22 | <Unicorn_Princess> | here we go: https://play.haskell.org/saved/PfBTmjQp |
| 02:25:06 | <davean> | c determines a b in your example. What you have there *is not a fucntioanl dependency in any way* |
| 02:25:14 | <davean> | I explicitely exactly violates the "functional" part |
| 02:25:57 | <Unicorn_Princess> | in which part does it do that? |
| 02:27:12 | <davean> | "(Frac a b) (Frac b a)" could be equal to "(Frac a x) (Frac x d)" but you claim that it resolves to both Float and Frac a d |
| 02:27:38 | <Unicorn_Princess> | ah yes, that's exactly my question |
| 02:27:39 | <davean> | You can't *functionally* depend to more than one thing, *functional* means exactly one |
| 02:27:50 | <davean> | So this is in no way a functional dependency |
| 02:28:00 | <Unicorn_Princess> | that much i understand |
| 02:28:02 | <davean> | It is specificly a *non*-functional dependency |
| 02:28:34 | <davean> | So you can do multiprarameter type class with preference. |
| 02:28:57 | <davean> | But a b *can not tell you what c is* |
| 02:29:06 | <Unicorn_Princess> | but if i can say in the type signature that a!=d in the "(Frac a x) (Frac x d)" case, then the result type is uniquely determined by the two inputs, i.e. functional |
| 02:29:34 | <Unicorn_Princess> | since it will no longer match the "(Frac a b) (Frac b a)" case |
| 02:29:37 | <davean> | You can prove something is the same |
| 02:29:59 | <davean> | Its a bit hard to prove, and I don't mean like "thats a lot of work" but in general to prove something is different. |
| 02:30:19 | <Unicorn_Princess> | how do i do the preference thing then? |
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| 02:30:55 | <davean> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/instances.html#instance-overlap |
| 02:31:27 | <davean> | Are you sure tehre isn't a good c -> a b chain that you might use? |
| 02:31:58 | <davean> | You are determining things by the result type here, NOT by the left hand types |
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| 02:32:56 | <Unicorn_Princess> | if i understand you correctly, you're saying that "class Mult a b c | a b -> c where" means "determine the types of a and b from c"? |
| 02:33:26 | <davean> | I believe you mgiht have typed something wrong. |
| 02:33:50 | <davean> | That says "Given a and b, we ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHAT C IS" |
| 02:34:33 | <Unicorn_Princess> | that's what i thought, yes |
| 02:34:49 | <davean> | Something along the lines of "c -> a b" is more what you have |
| 02:35:09 | <Unicorn_Princess> | and your suggestion, "c -> a b", means "given c, we know exactly what a and b are"? |
| 02:35:20 | <davean> | Note here that a type might not be specific *until runtime* |
| 02:35:27 | <davean> | Unicorn_Princess: yes |
| 02:35:51 | <davean> | Thats what makes proving inequality problematic on a fundimental level |
| 02:36:16 | <Unicorn_Princess> | the overlappinginstances stuff is deprecated, i assume using it will cause more trouble than it's worth? |
| 02:36:30 | <geekosaur> | the extension is deprecated |
| 02:36:45 | <geekosaur> | there are pragmas these days instead, which give you more fine-grained control |
| 02:37:12 | <Unicorn_Princess> | ah i see |
| 02:37:18 | <davean> | Unicorn_Princess: your actual information has to blow from c to a & b given your example. |
| 02:37:24 | <davean> | *flow |
| 02:37:37 | <davean> | Not that your example might be your entire thing |
| 02:38:26 | <Unicorn_Princess> | this is because haskell determines types 'backwards', i.e. from a desired result type, it figures out the input types? |
| 02:38:38 | <davean> | No haskell does not have a direction |
| 02:38:43 | <davean> | Your *example* has a direction |
| 02:39:04 | <davean> | Because its where the determinant information is |
| 02:39:15 | <davean> | Haskell works from all directions simultaniously. |
| 02:39:49 | <davean> | But, the only place in your example the information can exist in, is in c, thus the only way to work out the types is *from* c |
| 02:40:05 | <davean> | anything else would lead to contradictions |
| 02:40:20 | <Unicorn_Princess> | ah, you mean because they overlap? |
| 02:40:35 | <davean> | yes, and more how they overlap |
| 02:40:52 | <davean> | Some overlaps are more problematic than others |
| 02:42:08 | <davean> | Some overlaps won't lead to cascading problems where the issue could be anywhere. Yours does |
| 02:42:24 | <davean> | Unless you resolve it from C |
| 02:42:37 | <davean> | If you resolve it from c you'll get consistent results |
| 02:42:56 | <davean> | (with that example) |
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| 02:46:49 | <Unicorn_Princess> | hmm i see. since the compiler has trouble determining if two types differ at compile time, it doesn't consider the signature "Mult (Frac a b) (Frac b a)" as more specific than "Mult (Frac a x) (Frac x d)", and so it needs the third element too to disambiguate? |
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| 02:47:08 | <davean> | It doesn't have "trouble" you can't either in general, its not generally possible |
| 02:47:33 | <Unicorn_Princess> | well, that's just a specific kind of 'trouble' >_> |
| 02:47:33 | <davean> | There is, infact, nothing "more specific" about that |
| 02:47:57 | <davean> | If you had something concrete and actually provable, you could prefer it by preference |
| 02:49:25 | <davean> | so you can actually do some preference here with a type equality witness |
| 02:50:38 | <davean> | you could have like "instance (a :~: d) => Mult (Frac a x) (Frac x d)" and "instance Mult (Frac a x) (Frac x d)" for example, with an order |
| 02:50:45 | <davean> | but that won't give you a functional dependency |
| 02:50:56 | <davean> | it could give you an associated type maybe? |
| 02:51:23 | <davean> | but then you'll have other issues because you'll only be forward chaining and never backward chaining |
| 02:51:50 | <davean> | So you'll lose about half of your type inference |
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| 02:56:00 | <Unicorn_Princess> | well i am way out of my type-depth, so what i'm getting from this is it's more trouble than it's worth, even if i could get it to work |
| 02:57:58 | <davean> | I really expect yo uwant something "c -> a b"ish |
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| 03:01:49 | <Unicorn_Princess> | blindly replacing the "a b -> c" with "c -> a b" gets me even more red squigglies. i think i've been pressing my hand against this particular hot stove long enough |
| 03:03:17 | <glguy> | You could toss out the instance that generates a Float result and be explicit when you think you're done and provide a: Frac a a -> Float accessor |
| 03:03:55 | <Unicorn_Princess> | that's the plan, i think |
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| 08:01:38 | <Unicorn_Princess> | is there a way in haskell to specify the type of a numeric literal, other than (2 :: Float)? something like 2.f32 perhaps |
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| 08:06:25 | <mauke> | don't think so |
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| 08:11:56 | <Unicorn_Princess> | this specifically is my problem: https://play.haskell.org/saved/sliTftDP |
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| 08:12:40 | <Unicorn_Princess> | i've realized i can simplify my units system a lot, since i have so few units i'll actually use, i can simply define what multiplying each pair should produce |
| 08:13:25 | <Unicorn_Princess> | and it seems to work, except now haskell is being picky about the first argument |
| 08:13:40 | <Unicorn_Princess> | (in the case it's a numeric literal) |
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| 08:17:00 | <Lears> | Unicorn_Princess: You might get away with `instance float ~ Float => QMul float ...` depending on what other instances you want, otherwise you just have to annotate the literals. |
| 08:17:53 | <Unicorn_Princess> | what does that syntax mean? |
| 08:18:25 | <Unicorn_Princess> | a ~ in a type signature, scary... |
| 08:18:48 | <Lears> | It's an equality constraint. It means the instances matches /before/ restricting the variable to Float. |
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| 08:22:31 | <Unicorn_Princess> | well i don't understand that, but ghc gets angry after i add in the other instances. hmm. |
| 08:23:58 | <Lears> | OVERLAPPING/OVERLAPS may also help, but again, it depends on the instances. |
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| 08:30:31 | <Unicorn_Princess> | hm, they really shouldn't be overlapping tho. anyway, here's what happens: https://play.haskell.org/saved/RJi0C7Co |
| 08:30:53 | <Unicorn_Princess> | and i really don't understand how those instances conflict |
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| 08:38:57 | <Lears> | Yeah, that's not the instance heads overlapping, it's the fundeps conflicting again. To be consistent with the first instance (`float, Qty a -> Qty a`) the second (`Qty DMass, Qty DMassFrac -> Qty DMass`) would need `Qty DMassFrac` on the RHS. |
| 08:39:11 | <Lears> | Anyway, just rollback to before the equality constraint and get used to annotating. |
| 08:39:29 | <Unicorn_Princess> | yeah i think i'll go with that, thanks for trying :) |
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| 08:40:20 | <Unicorn_Princess> | i'll just make an "as_grams :: Float -> Mass" function to make it ergonomic |
| 08:40:54 | <Unicorn_Princess> | so "as_grams 12" instead of "12 .* g" |
| 08:41:16 | <Unicorn_Princess> | or rather "(12 :: Float) .* g" |
| 08:42:55 | <Lears> | Another option would be: `grams :: Float -> Mass`, then: (12 `grams`) |
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| 10:01:25 | <danse-nr3> | i find haddock's module descriptions slightly awkward. They begin with {-|, but there is nothing to be written straight after the | |
| 10:04:14 | <danse-nr3> | | is visually leading attention towards what follows it on the same line. It's catchy to the point that i always start with uppercase afterwards (in function docstrings) because it looks better |
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| 10:33:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> danse-nr3: are you talking about needing at least one space after the | ? |
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| 10:33:42 | <danse-nr3> | no i mean that in haddock examples (and in my common usecase) there is nothing to be written in the | line |
| 10:34:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I'm still mystified, sorry :) |
| 10:34:39 | <danse-nr3> | maybe because the metadata come before the plain text https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/latest/markup.html#the-module-description |
| 10:35:11 | <danse-nr3> | but i guess that if i don't add metadata i can start right after the | |
| 10:35:15 | <danse-nr3> | could work for a while |
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| 11:28:37 | <guy> | hi |
| 11:28:44 | <guy> | im trying to find a replacement for a library |
| 11:28:52 | <guy> | i was using a version with HMatrix |
| 11:28:55 | <guy> | but it uses blas |
| 11:28:59 | <guy> | (lapack) |
| 11:29:16 | <guy> | which id ont want to have to install each time, as i forget how, and its not platform independent |
| 11:29:38 | <guy> | anytime i use the import with the HMatrix dependency i get stuck searching around online, and its killing my productivity at critical times |
| 11:29:40 | <guy> | gaussianSample |
| 11:29:46 | <guy> | is the function i wish to replace |
| 11:30:02 | <guy> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hmatrix-0.16.1.5/docs/src/Numeric-LinearAlgebra-Random.html#gaussianSample |
| 11:30:34 | <guy> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hmatrix-0.16.1.5/docs/Numeric-LinearAlgebra-HMatrix.html#v:gaussianSample |
| 11:30:40 | <guy> | (snd link is better) |
| 11:31:03 | <guy> | it takes a list of means and a covariance matrix |
| 11:31:21 | <guy> | does anyone know of a package that offers an alternative to this function that does not rely on Clibs? |
| 11:31:35 | <guy> | or alternatively would anyone be willing to help me rewrite it? |
| 11:31:54 | <guy> | its quite complicated to do properly and relies on some cholitsky factorisations and stuff i dont want to have to do this |
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| 11:32:57 | <guy> | i can find plenty of libraries with the gausin distribution on a line, but not many (any?) that do it in nd |
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| 11:54:14 | <guy> | ok i found a good how to here |
| 11:54:15 | <guy> | http://5.178.65.204/topic/details/how-to-correctly-build-cabal-project-using-hmatrix-under-windows-10/29169 |
| 11:54:51 | <guy> | basically; |
| 11:54:52 | <guy> | pacman -S mingw-w64-x86_64-blas mingw-w64-x86_64-lapack |
| 11:55:01 | <guy> | C:\msys64\mingw64\bin |
| 11:55:06 | <guy> | (on path) |
| 11:55:19 | <guy> | (using msys2) |
| 11:55:25 | <guy> | derp |
| 11:55:27 | <guy> | ciao |
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| 14:38:29 | <liberalogica> | i am trying glirc |
| 14:40:07 | <EvanR> | nice |
| 14:41:17 | <liberalogica> | terminal management looks neat, although it's not obvious how to interact with the app (through a prefix or some key combination?) |
| 14:41:46 | <liberalogica> | i'll move to offtopic i guess |
| 14:45:45 | <EvanR> | there's a channel for it? |
| 14:45:48 | <EvanR> | #glirc ? |
| 14:46:24 | <liberalogica> | seems so, thanks |
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| 16:49:13 | <cheater> | what the hell is that url? |
| 16:50:40 | <cheater> | apparently, it's everyerror.com |
| 16:50:46 | <cheater> | how did he end up with an IP? |
| 16:50:52 | <cheater> | so weird |
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| 18:22:59 | <prolic_> | mauke - hi my friend |
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| 18:25:57 | <prolic_> | FYI: I was working on reviving the outdated and unmaintained HsQML library for Haskell, which adds Qt5 support with Qt Quick QML. Yesterday I made it work and run for the first time. |
| 18:26:00 | <prolic_> | https://github.com/prolic/HsQML |
| 18:29:36 | <EvanR> | admirable |
| 18:33:58 | <juri_> | yay. :) |
| 18:37:22 | <prolic_> | I'm trying to get some demos running right now |
| 18:38:18 | <geekosaur> | 👍 |
| 18:42:08 | <prolic_> | https://github.com/prolic/hsqml-demo-morris/ |
| 18:42:30 | <prolic_> | HsQML-based implementation of Nine Men's Morris (written in Haskell) |
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| 22:35:48 | <prolic_> | https://github.com/prolic/hsqml-demo-notes |
| 22:35:57 | <prolic_> | a second demo on Qt5 in Haskell made running |
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| 23:53:53 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
All times are in UTC on 2024-07-24.