Logs on 2024-07-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:55:42 | ← | Volt_ parts (~Volt_@72.252.192.240) () |
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| 03:06:21 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 04:29:50 | <Inst> | by the way, is anyone familiar with sumi.news? It's not that remarkable of a site, but it's a Haskell-powered news aggregator without ads |
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| 12:39:03 | <ncf> | > id :: f a ~ g b => g a -> f b -- type application injectivity |
| 12:39:05 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:39:05 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Typeable b0) |
| 12:39:05 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘show_M11994018058135706268’ |
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| 15:23:12 | <Enrico63> | Hi, can anybody help me understand why I observe discrepancies between the versions (of installed and set tools) in GHCup vs when I do `cabal info`? For instance, if I install and set GHC 9.4.8 or 9.8.2 via GHCup and then do `cabal info ghc`, I get 9.4.8 and 9.8.2 respectively, which is what I expected. However, even though HLS 2.7.0.0 is installed |
| 15:23:12 | <Enrico63> | according to GHCup (and it works because I use it in the IDE), doing `cabal info hls` shows Versions installed: [ Not installed ]. I have also asked the question on stackoverflow at https://stackoverflow.com/questions/78803163/confusion-between-ghcup-and-cabal-as-regards-versions-of-installed-packages-sys, but I haven't got any reply yet. |
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| 15:41:46 | rvalue- | is now known as rvalue |
| 15:44:49 | <sclv> | Enrico63: answered on the stackoverflow question |
| 15:45:25 | <sclv> | `cabal info` is for package info, not executables. so its just not telling you the info you're looking for, and in fact its info on what's installed is these days almost never useful to you at all. |
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| 16:08:25 | <c_wraith> | huh. Typeable is actually deeply weird now, isn't it? |
| 16:09:17 | <danse-nr3> | well if /you/ say that OO... i'm not gonna touch it even with a stick |
| 16:10:21 | <c_wraith> | I mean, it's not really a class anymore. Like Coercible |
| 16:11:06 | <c_wraith> | I've just had to put a Typeable constraint on something that would be inferred from the other constraints if it worked like real classes. |
| 16:11:07 | <dolio> | Yeah, it's not something you can manually specify, or have to request deriving of. |
| 16:11:56 | <c_wraith> | It's really not a problem, just a surprise that I had to specify it. |
| 16:11:57 | <Rembane> | Does Typeable have a flavour like Generic? |
| 16:12:19 | <Rembane> | As in, it's very useful but does not fit the mental model for many other type classes. |
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| 16:12:51 | <c_wraith> | I'd say it fits those two criteria |
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| 16:13:16 | <c_wraith> | Though it goes about it very differently than how Generic does |
| 16:13:25 | <dolio> | I'm not aware of it working any differently with respect to 'superclasses' if that's what you're talking about. |
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| 16:15:57 | <c_wraith> | Well, I'm specifically looking at a case where ghc isn't deriving the constraint `Typeable es' from `Exception (Foo es)`. |
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| 16:16:33 | <c_wraith> | But Typeable is a superclass of Exception |
| 16:16:58 | <c_wraith> | if it was a normal class, the Typeable instance for Foo would add the Typeable constraint on es |
| 16:17:57 | <dolio> | Well, it wouldn't have to necessarily. |
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| 16:19:42 | <c_wraith> | Well. In a technical sense it wouldn't have to, but the way the automatic instances of Typeable work it would add that constraint |
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| 16:32:02 | <c_wraith> | I guess from a perspective of runtime behavior, it probably would cost a lot to pass around all the possible Typeable dictionaries that might be inferred from a type with a lot of parameters |
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| 16:32:37 | <Rembane> | But maybe they can be thrown away if not used? |
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| 16:32:46 | <c_wraith> | So maybe there are cases where it's a visible performance improvement not to infer Typeable constraints and require them to be explicitly requested |
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| 16:35:02 | <dolio> | Now that you say that, I think it might not really be passing around these dictionaries at all. I seem to recall something about it just making them up wherever they're needed, so long as it knows that the 'instance' is valid. |
| 16:35:35 | <dolio> | But, you could explain that in terms of how type classes work. |
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| 16:37:04 | <dolio> | Like, there is no instance `Typeable e => Typeable (Foo e)`, there are just arbitrarily many instances `Typeable (Foo T)`, so there is no `Typeabale T` 'packed in' there. |
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| 16:39:18 | <c_wraith> | I think it has to create an instance dictionary in order for things to work when all that's available locally are constrained type variables |
| 16:40:03 | <dolio> | Given enough time, you could write a program like that yourself, with whatever extension allows you to write instances like that. |
| 16:42:21 | <c_wraith> | But I do see your point - the automatic instances don't add constraints, they're on every concrete type separately |
| 16:42:44 | <dolio> | Yeah, I think that's the mental model comparable to what it's doing. |
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| 16:44:11 | <c_wraith> | That does fit with the behavior I'm observing. So I'll adopt that model to explain why this constraint needs to be specified |
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| 16:58:23 | <dolio> | There probably is enough information in the type rep for it to implement something like the schematic instance, but I guess it'd be complicated. |
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| 17:06:29 | <JuanDaugherty> | generic programming support is the apparent rationale, and it looks like a solidly committed feature |
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| 17:07:57 | <JuanDaugherty> | and potentially a huge time sink |
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| 18:01:36 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | Quick question. What's the difference between data Thing = String and data Thing = Thing String |
| 18:01:39 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | Am I going crazy? |
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| 18:01:47 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | Or where do I read on that difference |
| 18:02:14 | <ncf> | the first one declares Thing as a data type with one constructor named String |
| 18:02:19 | <ncf> | do you mean type Thing = String? |
| 18:02:52 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | Let me check |
| 18:03:11 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | I keep mixing up type vs data holy shit |
| 18:03:49 | <mauke> | 'data Thing = String' creates a type called 'Thing' with a single value called 'String' (which is unrelated to the standard type 'String') |
| 18:04:07 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | https://learnyouahaskell.com/making-our-own-types-and-typeclasses Here the first example is data Bool = True | False |
| 18:04:21 | <mauke> | 'data Thing = Thing String' creates a type called 'Thing', which has a data constructor also called 'Thing', which has a single field of type 'String' |
| 18:04:49 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | Oh shit mauke |
| 18:04:53 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | thanks |
| 18:06:21 | <mauke> | in either case, the data constructors ('String' and 'Thing', respectively) are technically unrelated to the types whose names they share |
| 18:06:42 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | yesssss |
| 18:06:49 | <mauke> | which is why some people prefer 'data Foo = MkFoo ...' |
| 18:07:04 | <monochrom> | in "data Bool = True | False", True and False are data constructors. (Not types.) |
| 18:07:06 | <mauke> | to disambiguate between type constructors and data constructors |
| 18:07:19 | <monochrom> | Another way to say it: they are values. |
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| 18:08:20 | <mauke> | .oO( common values shared by all Haskellers ) |
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| 18:09:03 | <monochrom> | values and types are in separate name spaces, so you can have a value called Bool and a type called Bool and they can be unrelated. No one literally does that, but don't let kind-hearted conventions fool you. |
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| 18:10:34 | <monochrom> | When I teach C, I even show students that this is completely legal and the computer is completely unconfused: "typedef enum coin { HEAD, TAIL } listnode; typedef struct listnode { struct listnode *next; } coin;" |
| 18:11:14 | <dolio> | I do it. :þ |
| 18:11:21 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 18:11:37 | <dolio> | Well, they're probably not completely unrelated. But not just a constructor for the type of the same name. |
| 18:12:06 | <monochrom> | Money and meaningful names are the root of all evil. |
| 18:12:26 | <mauke> | struct stat, stat() // POSIX |
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| 18:13:02 | <mauke> | IIRC C++ has some special disambiguation rules because of stat |
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| 18:13:49 | <mauke> | monochrom: do you also teach them about labels? |
| 18:14:12 | <monochrom> | As in goto? For better or worse, I don't have time to teach goto. |
| 18:14:28 | <mauke> | labels are the only thing in C that have function scope |
| 18:14:33 | <mauke> | and they live in their own namespace as well |
| 18:15:11 | <monochrom> | I would rather spend time torturing them with function pointers of functions that take moar function pointer arguments than teach them goto. :) |
| 18:15:22 | <mauke> | that's just induction :-) |
| 18:15:36 | <monochrom> | yeah and higher-order common sense |
| 18:16:34 | <mauke> | switch (n % 3) { case 0: printf("%d is divisible by three\n", n); break; defualt: printf("%d is not evenly divisible by three\n", n); break; } |
| 18:16:36 | <monochrom> | Wait, if I have "void f(void) { int x; ... }", doesn't that x also have function scope? |
| 18:16:37 | <mauke> | ^ good bug |
| 18:17:03 | <mauke> | monochrom: sort of. technically it's block scope |
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| 18:17:12 | <monochrom> | Oh! That, right. |
| 18:17:38 | <mauke> | it just covers the entire function because it's the first declaration in the function body |
| 18:17:40 | <monochrom> | yeah labels have to exceed block and be delimited by only the enclosing function. |
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| 18:18:50 | <monochrom> | Sorry, what is the bug there? |
| 18:19:13 | <mauke> | it doesn't output anything if n is not divisible by 3 |
| 18:19:49 | <monochrom> | Oh! "defualt" is not "default". |
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| 18:20:21 | <mauke> | mixing case labels and regular labels is always great fun |
| 18:21:30 | <mauke> | int *ptr; goto L1; { L2: printf("n = %d\n", *ptr); goto L3; int n; L1: n = 42; ptr = &n; goto L2; } L3: ; // I think this is technically legal C |
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| 18:28:41 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | I just found this notation `::=`. What is it called? (So I could google) |
| 18:28:50 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | google is annoying as it doesn't seem to pick up these weird characters |
| 18:29:02 | <dolio> | Looks like formal grammaer specification. |
| 18:29:17 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | Is it not haskell notation? |
| 18:29:31 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | I know that the walrus operator is usually for assignment of values to variables |
| 18:29:35 | <LawrenceBerkheim> | at least from maths |
| 18:30:06 | <dolio> | Someone could have come up with a Haskell operator with that name, but I haven't seen it. |
| 18:30:12 | <dolio> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form <-- I have seen this. |
| 18:30:24 | <monochrom> | Every author uses ::= for their custom purpose. |
| 18:30:36 | <monochrom> | Similarly, ~ |
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| 18:31:06 | <yushyin> | but BNF is likely |
| 18:31:37 | <monochrom> | Similarly, , ; : @ ! |
| 18:32:22 | <monochrom> | Or rather, every language has its own idea what to use , ; : @ ! for. |
| 18:32:46 | <monochrom> | I know languages in which list literal syntax is [1;2;3] not [1,2,3]. |
| 18:32:54 | <dolio> | As they should. |
| 18:33:01 | <monochrom> | Good luck asking "what does ; mean?" without context. |
| 18:33:16 | <mauke> | everybody wants the colon |
| 18:33:17 | <danse-nr3> | ; is noisy |
| 18:33:46 | <monochrom> | That's a tautology. Only the unit type is not noisy. |
| 18:33:49 | <mauke> | [|1;2;3|] |
| 18:34:05 | <danse-nr3> | , is less noisy |
| 18:34:35 | <dolio> | Should use nbsp to separate list elements. Least noisy. |
| 18:34:45 | <mauke> | (1 2 3) |
| 18:35:01 | <Rembane> | LIST(1,2,3,4,5) |
| 18:35:21 | <mauke> | pushmark 3 2 1 |
| 18:35:36 | <monochrom> | NOOOO! First do Gödel numbering. Then use nbsp to express the number in unary. >:) |
| 18:35:37 | <dolio> | Can't just use normal spaces, because that's application. |
| 18:36:07 | <mauke> | no, you can do application with just juxtaposition |
| 18:36:37 | <yushyin> | yesterday i had to read about hocon, where elements are either separated by , OR \n ... |
| 18:36:42 | × | placidusax quits (~user@user/meritamen) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 18:36:49 | <mauke> | [(sqrt)x] -- application |
| 18:36:56 | <mauke> | [sqrt x] -- two elements |
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| 18:37:14 | <monochrom> | Well that's just like Haskell and shell scripts where commands are separated by ; or \n |
| 18:38:09 | <monochrom> | and Lean's tactic proof sublanguage, too :) |
| 18:38:53 | <mauke> | if you squint wrong, perl's list separator is one or more commas |
| 18:39:16 | <monochrom> | hee hee |
| 18:39:17 | <yushyin> | :) |
| 18:39:20 | <jle`> | in nix it's nice, list items are separated by spaces |
| 18:39:30 | <mauke> | [1, 2,, 3,,, 4] # this is ok |
| 18:39:50 | <monochrom> | I think Larry Wall explicitly stated that Perl is designed to be squintable like that because "inspired by natural language flexibility" |
| 18:40:03 | <yushyin> | jle`: but many want to change that to commas |
| 18:40:19 | <jle`> | i wasn't aware there was controversy |
| 18:40:26 | <mauke> | in this case you have to squint because this , is not a separator at all, it's infix list concatenation |
| 18:40:32 | <mauke> | well, most of them |
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| 18:45:07 | <danse-nr3> | hmm good point, why is list concat : rather than ,? |
| 18:45:08 | × | zzz quits (~z@user/zero) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 18:45:53 | <danse-nr3> | 1:2:3:[] versus 1,2,3,[] |
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| 18:46:22 | <danse-nr3> | i guess , got in the syntax before getting the opportunity |
| 18:46:27 | <ncf> | tuples would be ambiguous |
| 18:46:34 | <monochrom> | That : is not list concat. It's prepend one element, not concat two lists. |
| 18:46:40 | <danse-nr3> | oh right, good point ncf |
| 18:46:51 | <danse-nr3> | probably better for , to stay in the syntax |
| 18:47:08 | <danse-nr3> | yeah right monochrom, squeezing the last neuron juices here |
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| 18:48:25 | <monochrom> | Let me provide the last straw. |
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| 18:48:40 | <monochrom> | In Haskell, we write "term :: type" and "head : tail". |
| 18:48:50 | <monochrom> | In SML, it's "term : type" and "head :: tail" |
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| 18:49:18 | <ncf> | or you know Every Other Functional Language |
| 18:49:37 | <danse-nr3> | was some reasoning about frequency of usage i think, although personally i use term - type more than head - tail |
| 18:49:49 | <monochrom> | And both actually make sense in their respective idiomatic code and the consideration of "higher frequency <-> shorter name" |
| 18:50:15 | <danse-nr3> | huffmann coding heh :) |
| 18:50:46 | <danse-nr3> | a nice post about writing it in haskell featured in haskell weekly recently |
| 18:51:08 | <monochrom> | That one defeats itself. |
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| 18:51:28 | <danse-nr3> | ? |
| 18:52:27 | <monochrom> | 1st stage bothers to use a binary search tree to avoid expensive sorting. Then 2nd stage not only does expensive sorting, but insertion sort to top it off. |
| 18:53:09 | × | placidusax quits (~user@user/meritamen) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 18:53:52 | <danse-nr3> | oh, admittedly i did not read the code that carefully |
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| 18:55:49 | <Lears> | I wrote a thing: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/trials-tribulations-for-transitivity |
| 18:55:55 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) |
| 18:56:06 | <monochrom> | The proper algorithm that everyone knows: The same priority queue holds both individual chars and general Huffman trees. You start off with purely individual chars, sure; but intermediate states will have a mix of both. |
| 18:56:46 | <monochrom> | That article: BST for priority queue for individual chars, but put the Huffman trees in a flat list by insertion sort. |
| 18:57:13 | <danse-nr3> | that's why posts that are editable on github are awesome |
| 18:57:29 | <danse-nr3> | Lears are you Leary? |
| 18:57:37 | <monochrom> | Oh, like I actually have time to go correct them. |
| 18:58:01 | <danse-nr3> | well ... fair |
| 18:58:59 | <monochrom> | Instead, it is much more efficient to just refer people to well established correct textbooks. |
| 18:59:00 | <Lears> | Yes. This is my alt nick. |
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| 18:59:20 | <danse-nr3> | cool i'll check the link then =D |
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| 19:01:28 | <danse-nr3> | title was intriguing anyways, but i'm quite tired at this hour |
| 19:02:32 | <monochrom> | Some years ago another blog post made a wrong monad to explain monads. The blog post also made it to HWN. |
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| 19:05:03 | <danse-nr3> | hmm looks very interesting but a bit above my head at the moment |
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| 19:07:11 | <monochrom> | data M a = M Integer a; pure a = M 0 a; M x a >>= k = case k a of M y b -> M (x + y + 1) b |
| 19:07:34 | <danse-nr3> | (i was referring to Lears' post) |
| 19:07:46 | <monochrom> | I put it on my exam and asked my students "why does it break a monad law?" and the students saw what's wrong. |
| 19:08:53 | <dolio> | Did anyone answer, "it doesn't"? |
| 19:08:55 | <monochrom> | Generally, blog posts are of poor quality. |
| 19:09:05 | <monochrom> | I think no. |
| 19:09:17 | <dolio> | That students name was Albert Einstein. |
| 19:09:56 | × | placidusax quits (~user@user/meritamen) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 19:10:07 | <mauke> | it's fine as long as you don't add an Eq instance |
| 19:11:58 | <monochrom> | The blog post added something stronger than an Eq instance: The Integer field is meant to be observable. |
| 19:12:20 | <mauke> | instance Monoid Integer where { mempty = 0; mappend x y = x + y + 1 } -- there, now it's just Writer |
| 19:12:36 | <monochrom> | Why did Einstein say it doesn't? |
| 19:12:59 | <dolio> | It's clearly the quotient such that the number doesn't matter. |
| 19:13:24 | <dolio> | Just keeping track behind the scenes. |
| 19:13:53 | <danse-nr3> | it's like saying "generally, IRC messages are of poor quality" monochrom. Just can't compare blogs with books (yet) |
| 19:15:38 | <monochrom> | That is why I am only in a few channels where I have seen good quality. |
| 19:16:16 | <monochrom> | Similarly there are a few blog authors I have identified as good quality. |
| 19:16:41 | <danse-nr3> | have you got a blog yourself with links? Heh, i am old |
| 19:17:11 | <monochrom> | For random strangers you have to work at the level of "doubtful quality until proven otherwise". Likewise youtubers etc. |
| 19:17:58 | <monochrom> | I don't know whether it counts as "blog", but my haskell articles are at https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/ |
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| 19:19:20 | <danse-nr3> | once upon in a time i liked someone's site and then browsed to the links page where they would recommend their favourites. In those times, there were "sites" |
| 19:19:55 | <dolio> | Are you a member of any webrings? |
| 19:19:56 | <monochrom> | mauke: That breaks a monoid law. |
| 19:20:20 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 19:20:46 | <mauke> | yes, but now the Monad instance is fine |
| 19:20:52 | <mauke> | it's called "information hiding" |
| 19:21:06 | <JuanDaugherty> | danse-nr3, what are there now instead of 'sites'? |
| 19:21:27 | <JuanDaugherty> | if anything |
| 19:21:27 | <danse-nr3> | profiles on social networks |
| 19:21:34 | <JuanDaugherty> | i c |
| 19:21:50 | <mauke> | https://www.okmij.org/ftp/ good site |
| 19:22:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Webring-style sites still exist tho, mostly at Gemini and Gopher, but they exist |
| 19:22:26 | <dolio> | Wow. |
| 19:22:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Search engines were added for convenience, but they aren't strictly necessary |
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| 19:23:26 | <JuanDaugherty> | i call that a grabbag of stuffs landing, stuffs thought cool or interesting or whatever by the owner |
| 19:23:59 | <JuanDaugherty> | occasionally relevant some central thing then not so grabbaggy |
| 19:25:06 | <JuanDaugherty> | as often as not bitrotted |
| 19:25:23 | <monochrom> | mauke: If the Integer field is hidden information, I respect that, I don't have a qualm. But in the blog post, exposing the Integer field is the whole point of that example, IOW it's as bad as adding deriving Eq. |
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| 19:25:52 | <mauke> | yeah |
| 19:26:04 | <dolio> | I wasn't seriously suggesting that it was a good example. |
| 19:26:06 | <mauke> | were they trying to count binds or something? |
| 19:26:15 | <monochrom> | Yeah. |
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| 19:26:19 | <mauke> | unfortunate |
| 19:26:35 | <dolio> | But, there can be subtleties with similar examples. |
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| 19:26:49 | <monochrom> | Maybe I'll find the link and then stop whining about it further. Sorry! |
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| 19:27:10 | <dolio> | Can you print an approximation to a real number? |
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| 19:29:22 | <dolio> | Every computable function ℝ -> ℚ is constant. |
| 19:30:00 | × | danse-nr3 quits (~danse-nr3@user/danse-nr3) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 19:30:40 | <dolio> | But what if the actions of printing 'arbitrarily chosen' approximants in ℚ are actually considered the same IO action? |
| 19:32:44 | <monochrom> | This: https://betterprogramming.pub/monads-are-just-fancy-semicolons-ffe38401fd0e |
| 19:33:19 | <monochrom> | Err OK I think they didn't make us sign up to read the whole thing back then. |
| 19:33:43 | <Lears> | It's fine to write a monad that counts binds, you just need to remember that return trivialises and hence cancels an adjacent bind---the identity of that Monoid is -1. |
| 19:33:59 | <monochrom> | Yeah |
| 19:34:41 | <yushyin> | monochrom: https://archive.is/V8T6z |
| 19:35:24 | <monochrom> | Nice thanks. |
| 19:36:19 | <JuanDaugherty> | https://github.com/chippyash/Monad actual thing |
| 19:40:11 | <ncf> | Lears: why -1? |
| 19:40:33 | <ncf> | actually, what monoid? |
| 19:42:05 | <Lears> | The one that mauke wrote above, which turns the monad in question into Writer. |
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| 19:51:18 | <ncf> | oh, backlog |
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| 20:26:02 | <edwardk> | dolio lives! |
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| 20:31:44 | <dolio> | I do. |
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| 20:34:35 | <davean> | edwardk lives |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-07-29.