Logs on 2024-08-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:49:47 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i think people in ##rust are out partying and living normal lives, can i ask a simple functional programming-y rust question here? |
| 00:50:25 | <Inst> | "don't ask to ask" |
| 00:51:01 | <geekosaur> | but I don't know why you'd expect it to be any different here |
| 00:51:07 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | impl MyFoo { fn do_something(&self) -> i64 { self.bar + self.baz} } |
| 00:51:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | versus impl MyFoo { fn do_something(foo: MyFoo) -> i64 { foo.bar + foo.baz } } |
| 00:52:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so especially when do_something is a pure function (no mutation of self, for example), i'm having trouble understanding why you wouldn't always pass foo |
| 00:52:18 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | like, why use &self |
| 00:52:36 | <Inst> | i think it got answered in ##rust |
| 00:53:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | eh, i may as well have haskeller opinions if you have something to add... |
| 00:54:06 | <Inst> | a lot of Haskellers don't know Rust, and quite a few Haskellers who know both Rust and Haskell already left for Haskell, so if there's no activity, you could also try ##programming |
| 00:54:18 | <Inst> | erm, left for Rust, not left for Haskell |
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| 10:56:40 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> i can't believe that i complained almost a year ago that lifted-base doesn't compile in GHC 9.8 someone went and made a pull request fixing the issue and for some reason there isn't a fixed version |
| 10:58:02 | <Rembane> | So now you work from trunk? |
| 10:58:41 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> is this message related to my grievances? |
| 10:59:08 | <Rembane> | A bit. I guess your grievances haven't been adressed? |
| 11:01:18 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> absolutely even if i followed the main branch it still doesn't compile |
| 11:02:13 | <Rembane> | Oh, then I misunderstood you. I thought they had solved it but not released it. |
| 11:02:51 | <mauke> | fortunately stack lets you depend on PRs |
| 11:04:46 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> ooh cool is it easy? nix kinda allows the same but you will need 3+ lines of code |
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| 11:27:43 | <rini> | iirc if its on github you can set the ref to "refs/pull/<number>", works in a lot of package managers |
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| 11:29:49 | <rini> | ah, refs/pull/<id>/head |
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| 11:32:25 | <Inst> | this isn't actually memoizing like I think it does, right? |
| 11:32:27 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jxAdrzLz |
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| 11:34:46 | <Inst> | yeah, it's not working the way i think it does |
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| 13:18:16 | <Inst> | is memoize broken? |
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| 13:30:45 | <int-e> | what do you mean by "memoize"? |
| 13:31:27 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/memoize-1.1.2/docs/Data-Function-Memoize.html |
| 13:31:29 | <Inst> | benchmarking this |
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| 14:08:31 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> can someone remind me again why no one uses safe haskell? |
| 14:14:39 | <int-e> | s/noone/only lambdabot/ |
| 14:17:14 | <int-e> | I think it's that there's only one single notion of safety captured by Safe Haskell (designed more or less to prevent access to unsafeCoerce or unsafePerformIO by restricting imports so that the type system can do its job properly) and most people, if they care about this kind of safety, either want something different or something more strict. |
| 14:19:13 | ← | kuruczgy parts (55b66dd3ae@2a03:6000:1812:100::127f) () |
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| 14:45:06 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> lambdabot safe haskell |
| 14:45:21 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> does the bot work from matrix? |
| 14:46:33 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> @help |
| 14:47:04 | <Franciman> | maybe there is a lambdabot over there, but here it won't work because haskellbridge puts as a prefix of the message your nick |
| 14:47:05 | <int-e> | nah it doesn't recognize "<eldritchcookie> @help" |
| 14:47:06 | <Franciman> | so you wrote |
| 14:47:08 | <Franciman> | exacl |
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| 14:47:54 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> You gotta summon it properly |
| 14:48:17 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> O mighty lambdabot, |
| 14:48:17 | <haskellbridge> | @help |
| 14:48:17 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 14:49:00 | <int-e> | > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) |
| 14:49:02 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... |
| 14:49:15 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> do i need the lambdabot on the message or only a newline before the command |
| 14:49:15 | <haskellbridge> | @help |
| 14:49:15 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 14:50:35 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> cool |
| 14:50:35 | <haskellbridge> | @help list |
| 14:50:36 | <lambdabot> | list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command]. |
| 14:50:41 | <int-e> | ugh |
| 14:51:17 | <int-e> | Maybe lambdabot should ignore the bridge if that's where this is going? |
| 14:52:25 | <Franciman> | nice hack, people |
| 14:53:44 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> anyways does it have a quote or wisdom command or does it take multiple args for commands? |
| 14:54:14 | <mauke> | @quite |
| 14:54:14 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: quote quit |
| 14:55:05 | <mauke> | @quote me |
| 14:55:05 | <lambdabot> | Vellos says: AVATAR. SMURFS. SAME FUCKING STORY. |
| 14:55:08 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> @quote safe haskell |
| 14:55:29 | <mauke> | @quote safe |
| 14:55:29 | <lambdabot> | koninkje says: <mar77a> who the hell cares how many elements are there and their type! <koninkje> er, people who care about type safety? |
| 14:55:51 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> wow |
| 14:55:51 | <haskellbridge> | @quote safe haskell |
| 14:55:51 | <lambdabot> | No quotes for this person. Maybe you made a typo? |
| 14:56:03 | <mauke> | @quote safe.haskell |
| 14:56:03 | <lambdabot> | No quotes match. Abort, Retry, Panic? |
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| 14:56:21 | <mauke> | @quote mauke |
| 14:56:21 | <lambdabot> | mauke says: the first and foremost task of a haskell compiler is to break haskell programs |
| 14:56:46 | <int-e> | @ghc |
| 14:56:46 | <lambdabot> | Illegal deriving item |
| 14:56:53 | <mauke> | @quote mauke |
| 14:56:53 | <lambdabot> | mauke says: C++ is very efficient in that a single typo can cause several KB of errors |
| 14:56:54 | <vulpine> | @quote lambdabot |
| 14:56:54 | <lambdabot> | lambdabot says: @quote lambdabot |
| 14:57:11 | <mauke> | yes, that's good wisdom |
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| 16:19:20 | <Inst> | > import Data.Function.Memoize |
| 16:19:21 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘import’ |
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| 16:45:39 | <monochrom> | That probably isn't available on lambdabot and yahb2. |
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| 17:00:42 | <Inst> | does anyone still use memoize? |
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| 17:04:57 | <davean> | Some people but not many, because why would you? |
| 17:05:18 | <davean> | You can see even on hackage there are recent direct dependencies though that are legit. |
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| 17:09:34 | <Inst> | i'm trying to figure out why a memoized naive fib doesn't work |
| 17:09:58 | <davean> | Well for that it is irrelivent if people still use it, its not like code rots. |
| 17:10:14 | <davean> | So what "doesn't work" for you? There are a lot of ways for code to not work. |
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| 17:12:53 | <Inst> | time ./someResultingProg, etc... with and without memoize it's the same |
| 17:12:57 | <Inst> | print $ memoize fib 40 where fib :: Int -> Int; fib 0 = 1; fib 1 = 1; fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) |
| 17:13:19 | <Inst> | am i missing something somewhere? |
| 17:13:22 | <davean> | well you're using it wrong. |
| 17:13:28 | <Inst> | i guessed as much |
| 17:13:44 | <ncf> | the recursive calls need to use the memoised function |
| 17:13:48 | <davean> | look at what you're memoizing, and consider if you think thats a meaningful thing to memoize |
| 17:13:56 | <ncf> | (sorry, spoiled it) |
| 17:14:13 | <davean> | ncf: That does kinda get in the way of learning :-p |
| 17:14:48 | <Inst> | don't worry, i still don't get it |
| 17:15:14 | <c_wraith> | It's less magic than you're hoping for |
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| 17:15:42 | <c_wraith> | It doesn't *modify* a function to be memoized |
| 17:15:48 | <davean> | c_wraith: Doesn't everyone hope for lisp in the end? |
| 17:16:12 | <davean> | yes, it creates a memoized function |
| 17:16:16 | <davean> | it doesn't modify one |
| 17:16:39 | <davean> | you only ever call it once the way you did it so it calculates the value, saves it, and never uses it again |
| 17:16:45 | <ncf> | you want to use memoFix https://hackage.haskell.org/package/memoize-1.1.2/docs/Data-Function-Memoize.html#v:memoFix |
| 17:17:04 | <davean> | ncf: Thats complicated, I'd say he wants to create an alternative fib |
| 17:17:15 | <davean> | but yes |
| 17:17:28 | <davean> | Style differences |
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| 17:18:28 | <c_wraith> | I actually kind of like fix vs memoFix as a demonstration of how using an external combinator for recursion adds some power |
| 17:18:40 | <c_wraith> | but getting into that requires a base understanding of fix |
| 17:18:52 | <davean> | c_wraith: oh it absolutely does, I just think it takes more looking at what is going on than the lazy version |
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| 17:19:17 | <c_wraith> | Yeah, I don't think it's a good starting spot |
| 17:19:30 | <c_wraith> | But it's a cool thing to know about |
| 17:19:51 | <davean> | I totally think he should try to move to it after getting the simpler one working! |
| 17:20:00 | <davean> | Well simpler conceptually, the fix version is simpler to write |
| 17:20:08 | <davean> | (I contend its always more complicated to read though :/) |
| 17:20:38 | <c_wraith> | I use fix to inline loops in IO enough that I've stopped having trouble reading it... |
| 17:20:57 | <davean> | Its nto about trouble reading it, it simply does infact have more state to track |
| 17:21:41 | <ncf> | state? |
| 17:21:42 | <davean> | If the code is how you expect it, you can forget about that indirection, but sometimes it is used in weirder ways and you have to check. |
| 17:22:10 | <davean> | ncf: things in the ast you have to be aware of the values of |
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| 17:24:07 | <Inst> | ehhh, no one cares about fib, tbh, it's a toy, i just can't figure out why i can't get memoize to work |
| 17:24:15 | <Inst> | and the lib itself is obfuscated via template haskell |
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| 17:24:45 | <c_wraith> | so in order for fib to benefit from memoization, the recursive calls must call the memoized version. |
| 17:24:57 | <c_wraith> | But you've hardcoded it to call the non-memoized version |
| 17:25:02 | <c_wraith> | You can |
| 17:25:10 | <c_wraith> | Err. You can't just magically alter that after the fact |
| 17:25:16 | <davean> | Inst: it is? I read the code ... I didn't even see template haskell in it. |
| 17:25:32 | <davean> | c_wraith: in Haskell. |
| 17:25:55 | <davean> | Lisps can :( Its our one weakness. (Well we can with template Haskell I suppose ... but no one does, thats insanity) |
| 17:25:58 | <c_wraith> | true enough. I sort of left thta implied) |
| 17:26:25 | <Inst> | derived instances |
| 17:26:39 | <davean> | Inst: None of the instances on the paths you care about are derived. |
| 17:26:54 | <Inst> | k, it's my fault |
| 17:26:57 | <davean> | c_wraith: well my point here only is that it is a perfectly reasonable thing to want |
| 17:27:20 | <ncf> | Inst: you should try to understand the simple version from the wiki first https://wiki.haskell.org/Memoization#Memoization_with_recursion |
| 17:27:21 | <davean> | Inst: Make a new version of the fib function, and keep it to one instance of memoize |
| 17:27:28 | <ncf> | no template haskell required |
| 17:27:45 | <Inst> | i understand memoization in principle, as in |
| 17:27:46 | <c_wraith> | I guess I could totally see a function that takes a DecQ and rewrites the recursive calls to go via a memoization wrapper instead |
| 17:28:02 | <davean> | instance (Bounded a, Enum a) ⇒ Memoizable (Finite a) where is the instance set his stuff goes through |
| 17:28:21 | <ncf> | your earlier snippet is evidence that you don't |
| 17:28:25 | <davean> | c_wraith: Yep, and that would even be sane and supportable. |
| 17:28:50 | <Inst> | term = 1:1:(\u -> term !! (u - 2) + term !! (u - 1) ) <$> [2..] |
| 17:28:52 | <davean> | ncf: nah, if we were lisp and memoize was a macro, his earleir code would have been fine |
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| 17:29:13 | <c_wraith> | davean: until you start to think about mutual recursion, and... there's so much complexity hiding in that idea |
| 17:29:15 | <davean> | ncf: this is less an issue with memoize, and more an issue with haskell not being magic enough |
| 17:29:24 | <ncf> | notice how the fib helper calls memoized_fib, not fib |
| 17:29:32 | <davean> | c_wraith: oh sure, you need to write an entire new structure with everything it touches. |
| 17:29:35 | <Inst> | yeah, i saw |
| 17:29:51 | <davean> | c_wraith: its a lot of code dup, but totally reasonable. |
| 17:30:04 | <davean> | I'd not call the state pretty |
| 17:30:28 | <ncf> | if you only memoise the "end result", you get a function that will (slowly) compute fib 42 once, and then return the result instantly when you ask for it again... but if you then ask for fib 41, it will compute that from scratch |
| 17:30:47 | <Inst> | so fib 0 = 1; fib 1 = 1; fib n = memoize fib (n-1) + memoize fib (n-2) doesn't work? |
| 17:30:49 | <davean> | Yep, this is why I was pointing out where it was used |
| 17:30:51 | <Inst> | that doesn't seem to work in my usage |
| 17:30:55 | <davean> | it doesn't "push down" the memoization |
| 17:31:07 | <davean> | Inst: Thats *two* calls to memoize |
| 17:31:07 | <ncf> | the problem with *that* version is that you lose sharing |
| 17:31:15 | <davean> | Inst: so it'll work, but poorly. |
| 17:31:24 | <ncf> | memoize works by creating a data structure which is shared between calls |
| 17:31:58 | <ncf> | so the memoize call needs to be a top-level definition (or at least at the level at which you intend to use the memoised function) |
| 17:32:32 | <Inst> | iirc from the sample code is seems memoize f = f <$> [someFiniteEnum] !! n |
| 17:32:59 | <Inst> | ugh, forget it |
| 17:32:59 | <davean> | Yep, consider what that does |
| 17:33:02 | <davean> | fib 0 = 1; fib 1 = 1; fib n = memoize $ fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) |
| 17:33:16 | <davean> | Thats closer - see how it wraps the entire calculation? |
| 17:33:26 | <davean> | but thats just conceptually what you need |
| 17:33:35 | <ncf> | that's not well-typed |
| 17:33:40 | <davean> | I said CONCEPTUALLY |
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| 17:33:57 | <davean> | its trivial to make it well typed with a lambda |
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| 17:34:19 | <ncf> | you should have done that! |
| 17:34:28 | <davean> | No I shouldn't have |
| 17:34:42 | <davean> | I wanted it to be as close to his code as possible to show the issue |
| 17:35:08 | <davean> | The correct code is a different thing than showing the issue |
| 17:35:54 | <Inst> | it should be something like this |
| 17:36:19 | <Inst> | fib n = memoize (\u -> fib (u -2) = fib (u - 1) ) n |
| 17:36:21 | <Inst> | i think |
| 17:36:23 | <davean> | fib = memoize $ \case { 0 -> 1; 1 -> 1; n -> fib (n-1) + fib (n-2); } |
| 17:36:38 | <davean> | using a lambda case |
| 17:36:41 | <Inst> | ah |
| 17:36:55 | <davean> | Now, one could pull the 0 and 1 cases out |
| 17:37:21 | <davean> | and not use a lambda case |
| 17:37:34 | <davean> | and your 'n's well |
| 17:37:44 | <davean> | fib = memoize (\u -> fib (u -2) = fib (u - 1) ) |
| 17:37:46 | <davean> | is the same as you wrote |
| 17:38:00 | <davean> | which, correcting your typos, with the 0 and 1 cases, would work. |
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| 17:38:14 | <davean> | But you got there :) |
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| 17:39:37 | <davean> | How you write it is down to style. |
| 17:39:49 | <davean> | Inst: up for talking about the fix version? |
| 17:39:58 | <ncf> | that would not work |
| 17:40:17 | <davean> | hum? |
| 17:40:35 | <Inst> | yeah, sorry, still here |
| 17:40:39 | <Inst> | and sorry on imposing |
| 17:40:46 | <davean> | Inst: this is a channel for this sort of thing. |
| 17:40:51 | <davean> | ncf: what do you mean? |
| 17:40:52 | <Inst> | a bit tired |
| 17:40:54 | <ncf> | if you add the 0 and 1 cases inside the lambda, you're back at Inst's first version. if you add them outside, you need to eta-expand so that all cases have the same number of arguments, and then you lose sharing |
| 17:41:18 | <ncf> | davean: i guess you can write down the exact code you're thinking of and we can check if it works |
| 17:41:19 | <davean> | ncf: we're not back at Inst's first version? |
| 17:41:32 | <ncf> | oh you're right my bad |
| 17:41:41 | <davean> | I did write the code down |
| 17:41:45 | <davean> | for the lambdacase version |
| 17:41:54 | <ncf> | yeah that version is fine |
| 17:42:44 | <Inst> | i mean i'm too tired to continue, was waiting for assistance for a bit |
| 17:42:45 | <davean> | as for the sharing, I wasn't going to get into it, but I'm not sure if the conditional above the binary search trees, or more uniform code by having 0 and 1 in the binary search tree is faster, but its just a matter of performance. |
| 17:43:31 | <davean> | You don't need to share the 0 and 1 cases, and its a VERY microoptimization on if you should or not, that will depend on your processors speculation, etc. |
| 17:43:59 | <davean> | Inst: well then, I'll just sketch it up for you to contemplate later |
| 17:44:08 | <Inst> | thanks for being so nice |
| 17:44:49 | <Inst> | i'm just weirded out though |
| 17:44:56 | <Inst> | maybe it's the problem with O0 |
| 17:45:06 | <davean> | memoFix (\fib -> \case { 0 -> 1; 1 -> 1; n -> fib (n-1) + fib (n-2); }) |
| 17:45:38 | <davean> | let fib = memoFix (\fib' -> \case { 0 -> 1; 1 -> 1; n -> fib' (n-1) + fib' (n-2); }) |
| 17:45:54 | <davean> | I should write it so it doesn't trip you up :) |
| 17:45:55 | <ncf> | davean: by that i meant that fib n = memoize (\u -> fib (u - 2) + fib (u - 1)) n will not work, because the call to memoize is not shared |
| 17:46:05 | <Inst> | fib u = memoize (\v -> case v of; 0 -> 1; 1 -> 1; n -> fib (n - 1) + fib (n - 2) ) u |
| 17:46:34 | <Inst> | no visible performance improvement here, which is weird |
| 17:46:48 | <ncf> | yeah that's what i'm saying |
| 17:47:02 | <davean> | ncf: ah yes, you're right, I got too focused on keeping it close to their code |
| 17:47:10 | <ncf> | it might work if you define it in a where block, if the compiler is smart enough to lambda-lift it (which i think it is?) |
| 17:47:17 | <Inst> | but the lambda case version works |
| 17:47:24 | <Inst> | fib = memoize $ \case {...} |
| 17:47:48 | <davean> | Yah, I was thinking in the lambda case version :( |
| 17:47:53 | <davean> | Because lambda case is pretty |
| 17:48:21 | <ncf> | seems like it isn't: fib n = go n where go = memoize (\u -> fib (u - 2) + fib (u - 1)) doesn't work |
| 17:48:32 | <ncf> | at least in ghci |
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| 17:50:19 | <ncf> | i mean let-float it or whatever |
| 17:50:38 | <ncf> | as in remove the vacuous dependency on n |
| 17:50:51 | <davean> | Yah, -O0 interacts weird. This is also how profiling can change code flow :( |
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| 18:04:58 | <geekosaur> | there's a hidden option in 9.8/9.10 that might allow it to work (-fno-unoptimized-bytecode-for-interpreter) |
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| 18:12:09 | <davean> | Yah its better to write it so it doesn't need it ideally ... but yes, good chance that would help. |
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| 18:19:39 | <monochrom> | My https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/fix.xhtml explains how to use fix or turn your direct recursion into using fix. Then you just s/fix/memoFix/ |
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| 18:20:34 | <monochrom> | More broadly there is a whole idea called "open recursion" that covers this and generally boasts how extensible it is. |
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| 18:21:35 | <monochrom> | For example, in class-based OOP, a class that can be subclassed is an open recursion in types. Here, "open" = "extensible". |
| 18:22:02 | <monochrom> | or perhaps s/types/type templates/ |
| 18:29:15 | <monochrom> | My https://www.vex.net/~trebla/tmp/Loeb.hs connects memoFix with the löb combinator by noting that the data structure is a representable functor. :) |
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| 18:35:50 | <Inst> | cool, 9.10 is out |
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