Logs on 2024-08-19 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:30:45	<haskellbridge>	<eldritchcookie> how do i get retrie to compile in ghc 9.10? there is a HLS release that supports 9.10 but to do that they must have compile HLS which needs retrie
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00:43:43	<geekosaur>	retrie is only required if the retrie plugin is; but that is currently disabled on 9.10 (https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/blob/master/haskell-language-server.cabal#L628)
00:45:29	<Axman6>	ghcup has hls available for 9.10 too
00:45:43	<geekosaur>	yes, but it doesn't have the retrie plugin in it
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00:47:18	<Axman6>	sure, I was just questioning the "which needs retrie"
00:48:48	<haskellbridge>	<eldritchcookie> huh, for some reason i thought the best way to determine if it was from a plugin was to read the .cabal file and misread the section it belonged to.
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00:53:12	<monochrom>	Haha "best way ... is to misread ..."
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01:01:11	<geekosaur>	true if you're after amusement 😛
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03:03:20	<slack1256>	[1/3] Reading about the copying GC and the nonmonving GC, both seem to stop the world (STW), is just that the nonmoving GC only STW for the marking phase. The pause length is proportional to the live memory on both cases.[
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03:03:30	<slack1256>	[2/3] So my question is about what you should do if you want (to that you should) to hold 10GBs of linked lists on Gen 1 of the GC. Is the only only store them on compact regions?
03:03:44	<slack1256>	[3/3] It seems other GC on other languages ecosystems, the STW is proportional to the garbage data instead of the live data. So the previous use case is supported out of the box. The generational hypothesis is even more true on functional languages, so I guess the tradeoff make sense. I just want to understand what is the expected action to the programmer.
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03:04:14	<slack1256>	(not* that you should)
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03:27:21	<slack1256>	I guess the answer is really to put more generations via -G3 etc
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07:04:04	<c_wraith>	why would you want to keep them in gen 1 in the first place?
07:04:42	<c_wraith>	(probably a few hours too late to get a reasonable answer)
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07:26:23	<[exa]>	Hi all, explorative question: so I've got this API client which is assembling a large query result from multiple small queries, where many can go in parallel (but the parallelism is better controlled a bit to avoid going complete BFS and wasting all memory for subresults that are not required yet). Is there some existing good way/monad/library to implement this conveniently?
07:26:53	<[exa]>	Normally I'd go plain old IO threads with some kind of semaphore to keep the parallel request count at bay, but that seems crude
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07:29:05	<[exa]>	for bonus features it would be nice to have some possibility to execute stuff speculatively, such as "let's gather some stats before deciding where to go" or "if these requests fail we can just bail out, the other branch will succeed"
07:32:38	<jackdk>	haxl springs to mind, not that I've used it: https://engineering.fb.com/2014/06/10/web/open-sourcing-haxl-a-library-for-haskell/ . But I think that restricts itself to an Applicative
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07:36:30	<Inst>	yup, memoize is broken on 9.10.x
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08:55:06	<ncf>	are you sure about that
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09:37:51	<Inst>	ncf: is it broken specifically if you use a lib + ghc toolchain?
09:37:55	<Inst>	in 9.4 it works
09:38:04	<Inst>	lib + ghci toolchain, rather, it refuses to isntall under cabal install
09:38:09	<Inst>	let me try to do it with a cabal script
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09:39:05	<ncf>	oh i thought this was still about recursion, not a literal build failure
09:39:42	<Inst>	thanks you guys for being so helpful
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09:44:32	<int-e>	Oh. It builds with 9.6, but not with 9.8.
09:44:45	<int-e>	Inst: FWIW the lesson hear is that "broken" is very non-descriptive.
09:45:07	<Inst>	thanks :)
09:45:26	int-e	made the same assumption as ncf.
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10:46:51	<[exa]>	jackdk: haxl actually looks like quite the thing, thanks a lot
10:47:00	<[exa]>	at wurst I'll copy from them. :)
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11:05:40	<Inst>	hmmm
11:06:02	<Inst>	is there a way to get Haskell to compute a limit?
11:07:02	<Inst>	these are cat theory limits, though
11:07:04	<Inst>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-category-0.11/docs/Data-Category-Limit.html
11:09:25	<ncf>	compute? what's the input, what's the output?
11:09:46	<Inst>	I was thinking about a bad joke regarding a certain political figure
11:10:01	<Inst>	"x and disadvantaged minority define the new normal"
11:10:06	<Inst>	"how do they define the new normal?"
11:10:20	<Inst>	"by being paid 63.7% that of [insert privileged group here]"
11:12:43	<Inst>	payOf foo = 0.637 * bar; bar = payOf bar
11:12:49	<Inst>	that'd just be undefined in Haskell
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11:15:38	<Inst>	wow, lisp doesn't have macros for this either
11:16:26	<Inst>	i guess you could define an eDSL and have limits as something that operates on the eDSL
11:17:11	<Inst>	/s/undefined/bottom
11:17:35	<Inst>	solved in offtopic by exa
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11:21:09	<[exa]>	Inst: you'd literally need the eDSL to have a different notion of the let-binding, i.e. a different `=`
11:22:00	<[exa]>	because whatever you do the `=` is going to create the recursion bottom (unless going for absolutely insane trickery with thunk equality matching or so)
11:22:17	<Inst>	yes since = is bound, unless you want to implement it monadically and use <- instead
11:22:42	<[exa]>	in haskell probably best to wrap it in TH brackets, convert to an equation system, and continue as previously
11:23:06	<[exa]>	with `<-` you might want `mdo`
11:23:13	<[exa]>	aka MonadFix
11:23:40	<[exa]>	reactive folks have had success there with similar loopy issues
11:28:32	<probie>	> let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf cos 1
11:28:34	<lambdabot>	0.7390851332151607
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11:30:26	<[exa]>	`zip <*> tail` whew nice
11:30:53	<probie>	@quote zip`ap`tail
11:30:53	<lambdabot>	quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail the aztec god of consecutive numbers
11:31:28	<probie>	take 10 $ zip <*> tail $ [1..]
11:31:36	<probie>	> take 10 $ zip <*> tail $ [1..]
11:31:37	<lambdabot>	[(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7),(7,8),(8,9),(9,10),(10,11)]
11:32:11	<Inst>	whoa, someone else abusing the applicative instance for (a ->)
11:32:40	<Inst>	(i personally wish <*> abuse was considered normal)
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11:34:46	<probie>	It's an idiom that people recognise. It's important to shuffle it around
11:36:09	<probie>	> do{t<-tail;take 10 . (`zip` t)} $ [1..]
11:36:11	<lambdabot>	[(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7),(7,8),(8,9),(9,10),(10,11)]
11:36:27	<Inst>	also the code seems flawed
11:36:42	<Inst>	let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf cos 0
11:36:46	<Inst>	> let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf cos 0
11:36:47	<lambdabot>	0.7390851332151607
11:36:51	<Inst>	> let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf cos pi
11:36:52	<lambdabot>	0.7390851332151607
11:37:18	<Inst>	> let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf cos undefined
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11:37:20	<lambdabot>	*Exception: Prelude.undefined
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11:39:17	<probie>	> let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf (\n -> (n + (fromIntegral (round n))) / 2) 0.8
11:39:19	<lambdabot>	1.0
11:39:26	<probie>	> let limitOf = ((fst . head . dropWhile (uncurry (/=)) . (zip <*> tail)) .) . iterate in limitOf (\n -> (n + (fromIntegral (round n))) / 2) pi
11:39:27	<lambdabot>	3.0
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12:02:58	<albet70>	fmap . fmap to unwrap nested list, more one list, more one fmap compose, is this a kind of instiition?
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12:17:11	<ncf>	what's an instiition
12:18:57	<albet70>	intuition
12:22:29	<Inst>	(fmap . fmap) is a common idiom to point a function into a nested list (or, essentially, any two types that support the Functor typeclass
12:22:53	<Inst>	foo :: IO [Int]; foo = pure [1..10]
12:23:05	<Inst>	(fmap . fmap) (+1) foo
12:24:14	<Inst>	(fmap f <$>) or fmap f <$> works as well, etc...
12:25:21	<ncf>	fmap.fmap is fmap for Compose f g
12:26:07	<ncf>	ideally you could do fmap @(\x -> IO [x]) but haskell doesn't have type-level lambdas so instead you indicate how many "layers" of type constructors you want to peel off by composing fmaps
12:30:40	<Inst>	iirc aren't dependent types capable of injecting type-level lambdas into Haskell?
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12:35:48	<ncf>	sounds like a category error
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12:43:43	<lortabac>	I guess allowing instances on unsaturated type-level functions would be a little messy
12:45:27	<lortabac>	does Idris have something like that?
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12:55:17	<SrPx>	is there any alternative front-end to GHC nowadays?
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13:07:33	<Inst>	<probie> It's an idiom that people recognise. It's important to shuffle it around
13:07:33	<Inst>	<probie> > do{t<-tail;take 10 . (`zip` t)} $ [1..]
13:07:38	<Inst>	sarcasm noted there
13:08:01	<Inst>	also afaik, no one ever uses (r ->) in do notation, right? If they do it, it's reader
13:08:15	<kuribas>	Noone should use (r ->), like ever.
13:08:58	<Inst>	i mean people use ReaderT
13:09:09	<Inst>	ReaderT identity as well, they just don't use (r ->)
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13:32:23	<Leary>	[exa]: A straight-forward approach, inheriting nice exception semantics from STM and IO: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/e139dfe025e2ed5a47040106b321dbc3
13:32:42	<Leary>	Not sure if actually helpful; might be too obvious.
13:32:52	<Leary>	But I had fun writing it, so whatever.
13:33:36	<[exa]>	yeah actually helpful too, not sure if I use it but in case I don't go with haxl I'd basically have to code the same
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13:43:25	<int-e>	% mapM_ print ([1,2,3],42)
13:43:25	<yahb2>	42
13:43:46	<int-e>	I swear these tuple instances bite me way more often than the (r ->) ones.
13:45:31	<Rembane>	I use them so much that I hope that I have internalized them
13:45:36	<Rembane>	It's my strategy
13:45:39	<Rembane>	I don't know if it works
13:45:49	<Rembane>	That they exist is fascinating in itself
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13:52:34	<probie>	They're useful from time to time with things like `traverse`
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13:54:36	<lortabac>	I always try to use the most specific function when there is one. No need to use 'fmap' if you need 'map'. That's also why I'm not a big fan of things like classy-prelude
13:55:05	<Rembane>	probie: Yeah, but I think I would prefer to have a newtype for it for clarity.
13:55:22	<Rembane>	OTOH, that's a critique that can be applied to all instances all the time.
13:56:09	<lortabac>	TBH I consider even the obligation to use 'Monad' to chain IO actions a mistake in the language. I don't see why 'bindIO' etc. shouldn't be exposed in Prelude
13:57:03	<Rembane>	lortabac: This makes me curious, do you have more motivation or intuition for this?
13:57:04	<lortabac>	ad-hoc polymorphism should only be used when really needed
13:57:42	<lortabac>	Rembane: well, the most obvious one would be that newcomers now need to learn monads in order to use IO
13:58:01	<probie>	Every new name introduced is a name that needs to be learnt
13:58:10	<lortabac>	of course
13:58:28	<lortabac>	but now they are obliged to learn a hard concept that they don't need at that stage
13:58:28	<Rembane>	lortabac: Not reay, they need to learn the funny do-notation and then they're off to the races.
13:59:01	<lortabac>	yes, books can find a workaround by not mentioning that the 'do' notation is about monads
13:59:14	<lortabac>	but still it is about monads
14:00:31	<Rembane>	Indeed
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14:02:41	<danse-nr3>	i don't get the preference for specific functions, `map` over `fmap`. If one doesn't use basic haskell abstractions, what's the point of using haskell at all
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14:03:53	<probie>	It's about the only non-strict language around with an ecosystem and reasonable performance
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14:08:42	<danse-nr3>	fair point
14:08:54	<danse-nr3>	:t map (++)
14:08:56	<lambdabot>	[[a]] -> [[a] -> [a]]
14:09:33	<danse-nr3>	why would one write code that is less portable though, besides that slight performance improvement?
14:09:48	<danse-nr3>	:t fmap (<>)
14:09:50	<lambdabot>	(Functor f, Semigroup a) => f a -> f (a -> a)
14:10:23	<danse-nr3>	also losing the possibility to interpret its more abstrat meaning and reason in terms of common operation on different instances?
14:11:22	<kuribas>	danse-nr3: some more specific functions may be more efficient, for example stream fusion.
14:11:58	<kuribas>	It's also not less portable if you already restrain the type.
14:13:09	<danse-nr3>	oh, it's not less portable with restrained types then
14:14:28	<EvanR>	ad hoc polymorphism never "needs" to be used, because you can use "record-of-functions" style OOPish pattern to vary behavior from value to value
14:15:09	<EvanR>	but type classes shine when you have a nice logical framework that benefits from the idiosyncracy of type class coherence
14:15:27	<EvanR>	that we can use the + operator in many cases is a nice side effect
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14:16:26	<danse-nr3>	maybe the Num instance is not the easiest to highlight the advantages, but Semigroups, Functors ... if one doesn't like them, go looking for another lazy lang really
14:17:33	<EvanR>	and if you do like Semigroups, Functors, you can still go looking for another language, like scalaz!
14:18:08	<EvanR>	also lol at another lazy language
14:18:15	<EvanR>	miranda?
14:19:24	<Inst>	/s/miranda/mirandaTM
14:19:48	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone ever do haskell interop with agda/idris?
14:19:56	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> do most things in haskell, do dependent stuff in those
14:20:05	<probie>	Can I even run Miranda on anything other than x86(_64)?
14:21:20	<Inst>	studying C, I finally understand how alien Haskell can be when two basic concepts require "generics" just to use and understand
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14:22:11	<EvanR>	or how alien C, with arbitrary mutation and IO anywhere
14:22:34	<EvanR>	and bizarre undefined behaviors@!
14:22:58	<Inst>	and textbooks that are essentially made up of "this is a footgun, don't use it"
14:23:34	<danse-nr3>	which "two basic concepts" would those be Inst?
14:24:11	<Inst>	IO a, [a]
14:24:17	<Inst>	although tbh, is [a] really that alien?
14:24:41	<EvanR>	you can make [a] in C but it won't be checked by the type system
14:24:48	<EvanR>	void pointer
14:24:55	<danse-nr3>	why would they require "generics"? Or you still mean typeclasses by that?
14:25:02	<lortabac>	danse-nr3: I'm not saying that 'fmap' shouldn't be used, I'm saying we should use the right tool for the job
14:25:18	<EvanR>	Inst, is probably talking about C generics
14:25:44	<Inst>	go afaik finally has generics?
14:25:46	<EvanR>	generics as a term ignores research and is redefined as a different random thing in each language
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14:26:25	<Inst>	i guess generics isn't pure then? or it is, provided you pass it a generator :3
14:26:39	<EvanR>	we don't know until you clarify what generics you're talking about
14:30:21	<Inst>	parametric polymorphism, i guess
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14:30:56	<EvanR>	C can do that through void pointers, with no guardrails
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14:31:06	<EvanR>	so it's not really alien
14:32:54	<Inst>	it looks like something that'd fill up 1-2 pages with footgun warnings
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14:40:47	<lortabac>	danse-nr3: when you have a complex computation, something with multiple layers of Either, Maybe, lists etc. if you use specific types/functions when you get lost you can use typed holes or IDE features to help you follow what is happening. If all you have is fmap's and traverse's, good luck!
14:42:12	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> If you want to see something funny, look up the type of qsort() in C
14:42:40	<probie>	you can use TypeApplications to disambiguate without the need to learn about specific names for each names
14:43:49	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> and if you want to be horrified, check out <tgmath.h>
14:44:05	<lortabac>	probie: I'm talking about how the compiler can help you, not about how you can help the compiler
14:44:34	<EvanR>	it stands for Too Good math
14:46:07	<albet70>	does liftA2 have other names?
14:46:26	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> liftM2
14:46:29	<probie>	`\f x y -> f <$> x <*> y`
14:47:49	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> I should port to Haskell
14:48:14	<dolio>	The compiler helps me by picking the right overloading of functions instead of making me do it manually, with a cornucopia of disambiguating names.
14:48:23	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> ... That renders wrong in Matrix
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14:55:08	<albet70>	what's the name that fmap can work with binary function?
14:55:24	<albet70>	fmap (+) [1..3] [3..5]
14:55:36	<dolio>	liftA2?
14:57:12	<albet70>	no
14:57:38	<EvanR>	:t zipWith
14:57:38	<lambdabot>	(a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
14:57:47	<albet70>	that should be [4,6,8] but (+) <$> [1..3] <*> [3..5] == [4,5,6,5,6,7,6,7,8]
14:58:20	<albet70>	zipWith it is
14:58:21	<dolio>	It's [4,6,8] with ZipList.
14:58:59	<ncf>	> liftA2 (+) (ZipList [1..3]) (ZipList [3..5])
14:59:01	<lambdabot>	ZipList {getZipList = [4,6,8]}
14:59:31	<probie>	All lawful functor instances for a type are identical, but that doesn't hold for applicative
15:01:28	<albet70>	zipWith is related to transpose?
15:01:29	<EvanR>	why would you use zipWith f foo bar when you could use getZipList (liftA2 (+) (ZipList foo) (ZipList bar))
15:01:59	×	lortabac quits (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:55ab:e185:7f81:54a4) (Quit: WeeChat 4.2.2)
15:02:06	<EvanR>	albet70, you might be thinking of zip from languages which use list to stand for tuples
15:02:13	<EvanR>	:t zip
15:02:14	<lambdabot>	[a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
15:02:25	→	segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@23-93-79-84.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
15:02:32	<dolio>	I would definitely use zipWith. But if we're talking about fmap, it's meaningless to generalize to multiple arguments without something like Applicative.
15:02:34	×	euleritian quits (~euleritia@dynamic-176-000-011-067.176.0.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:02:49	<EvanR>	> zip [1,2,3,4] [5,6,7,8]
15:02:51	<lambdabot>	[(1,5),(2,6),(3,7),(4,8)]
15:03:16	<EvanR>	:t zip3
15:03:17	<lambdabot>	[a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [(a, b, c)]
15:03:18	→	euleritian joins (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
15:03:43	<EvanR>	zip in another language :: list of list of value -> list of list of value
15:03:51	<EvanR>	corresponding to transpose in haskell
15:03:51	<albet70>	zip is transpose?
15:04:08	<EvanR>	not in haskell but in a language that doesn't know a tuple from a list
15:06:02	<Inst>	albet78: new here?
15:06:05	<Inst>	albet70
15:08:28	<albet70>	yes, I'm a newbie
15:08:41	<Inst>	welcome, and enjoy Haskell! :3
15:09:10	<Inst>	i hope the type signatures and annotations aren't too hard, that was a big tripping point for me
15:09:23	×	terrorjack4 quits (~terrorjac@static.163.82.63.178.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
15:09:38	<EvanR>	and then once you get type signatures, you go back to the real world and wonder why they're not there in e.g. python
15:09:53	<Inst>	i sort of wish Py stole Haskell's type signature format
15:09:58	×	euleritian quits (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
15:10:08	<Inst>	but, back to Haskell being alien!
15:10:20	<Inst>	(actually Py stealing Idris's typesig format would probably have been better)
15:10:23	<albet70>	that ByteString Lazy Internal String Char stuff are not friendly
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15:10:49	<EvanR>	not even dependent types would safe dynamic language APIs from themselves
15:11:16	<EvanR>	Char is pretty straightforward and exists in many languages
15:11:18	<albet70>	Inst , python have type hint now, and they have pydantic for type check like ts to js I think
15:11:19	<Inst>	also have you done kinds yet?
15:11:20	<c_wraith>	TypeScript gets really funny when trying to describe some existing JS APIs
15:11:34	×	ChaiTRex quits (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection)
15:11:36	<c_wraith>	type that are longer than implementations...
15:11:59	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> ByteStrings get a little easier once you realize there are two (and only two) of them
15:12:11	<EvanR>	and ShortByteString xD
15:12:13	<danse-nr3>	yeah typescript quite poor at being functional
15:12:27	<albet70>	when to unify String [Char] Text, and that Strict Internal Lazy stuff
15:12:35	<EvanR>	do not unify
15:12:35	→	ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex)
15:12:42	<EvanR>	that is wrong and broken
15:12:51	<EvanR>	it's like the belief that there is one number type
15:12:57	<EvanR>	we just haven't found it yet
15:12:57	<EvanR>	no
15:13:19	<EvanR>	what is Internal
15:13:20	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> String = [Char]
15:13:47	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> The bit of the error message that is best ignored
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15:14:22	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> Only Strict vs Lazy matters
15:14:24	<EvanR>	something internal literally called Internal is leaking out into errors ? :(
15:14:27	<Inst>	albet70: kinds tbh probably should be introduced around the same time as parametric types
15:14:36	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> Yes
15:14:47	<Inst>	values have types, type constructors (like Char, or []) have kinds
15:14:49	<albet70>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.3.1/docs/Data-ByteString-Internal.html
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15:15:21	<EvanR>	ok Data.ByteString.Internal is a module name
15:15:23	<Inst>	Data.ByteString.Internal is a module name
15:15:27	→	euleritian joins (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
15:15:40	<EvanR>	many libraries stash internal implementation stuff in an Internal submodule
15:15:40	<Inst>	actually EvanR, you're both better at this and nicer than me, so I'll let you handle it?
15:15:52	<c_wraith>	EvanR: Internal shows up in error messages when you don't have the correct bytestring type in scope. The error message talks about where it's defined in that case, and they're defined in their respective .Internal modules
15:15:55	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Quit: leaving)
15:17:42	<EvanR>	albet70, thing is, [Char] and ByteString isn't even a choice between similars, they are very different for different purposes
15:18:06	<EvanR>	thinking of them both as "string" is confused
15:18:09	<albet70>	yes, [Char] is not ByteString
15:18:18	<EvanR>	so they can't possibly be unified
15:18:31	<albet70>	[Char], String and Text?
15:18:40	<albet70>	ByteString and Word?
15:18:45	<Inst>	are you familiar with the type keyword?
15:18:46	<EvanR>	other programming languages went through a struggle to decide if they want [Char] OR ByteString as their one string type
15:18:52	<EvanR>	it's kind of a disaster
15:19:08	<albet70>	python2 str is bytestring
15:19:14	<Inst>	the type keyword in Haskell is the typedef keyword in C
15:19:20	<Inst>	it creates a synonym for a preexisting type
15:19:25	<Inst>	type String = [Char]
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15:19:40	<EvanR>	python has a complex policy on top of their bytestring to make sure it can represent unicode text properly
15:19:46	<EvanR>	haskell doesn't
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15:19:58	<Inst>	isn't bytestring just raw data?
15:20:06	<Inst>	Word8 vector
15:20:07	<EvanR>	is that like pure energy?
15:20:38	<Inst>	Word in Haskell typically refers to an unsigned integer
15:20:42	<EvanR>	vector of Word8 is an adequate semantics (for strict ByteString)
15:21:42	<Inst>	so it's a vector (array or typed list) of unsigned integers limited to 8 bits
15:21:57	<EvanR>	that's getting into the weeds
15:22:01	<EvanR>	unnecessarily specific
15:22:41	<EvanR>	numbers zero to 255
15:22:54	<Inst>	albet70, still here?
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15:26:41	<fr33domlover>	o/ What's the recommended extensible record package these days? Is vinyl still the thing? I see there's a few more (in particular the 'topaz' package has been updated in 2024, while vinyl hasn't since 2022)
15:27:44	<albet70>	sorry, I was coding
15:29:06	<albet70>	I'm learning that some basic alghrithm for interview, some list stuff
15:29:13	<EvanR>	vinyl probably still works and sometimes you don't need constant updates
15:29:22	<EvanR>	haven't heard of topaz
15:29:45	<Inst>	in py, right?
15:29:55	<EvanR>	one of the dependent map packages might also work in lieu of vinyl
15:30:33	<albet70>	haha, I'm learning Data.List and turn it to py for interview, there's no haskell job around
15:30:57	<Franciman>	albet70: where are you located? Asia/EU/Americas
15:31:24	<albet70>	Data.List is a very very good for people to solve some interview questions
15:31:32	<albet70>	Asia
15:32:04	<Inst>	did you see the Haskell mergesort Data.List.sort yet?
15:32:28	<Inst>	actually that's not really basic :(
15:35:20	<c_wraith>	These days, it's kind of the table stakes for a standard library sort, even in the case where you're not trying to 100% maximize efficiency because of the data structure involved
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15:36:24	<c_wraith>	But like... if your standard library sort isn't O(n) on sorted input, people will want to fix it. :)
15:36:44	<albet70>	quickSort (x:xs) = let smallerSorted = quickSort [a \| a <- xs, a <= x]; biggerSorted = quickSort [a \| a <- xs, a > x] in smallerSorted <> [x] <> biggerSorted
15:37:29	<c_wraith>	that.... is O(n^2) on sorted input
15:37:53	<Inst>	yeah people bash that all the time
15:38:22	<albet70>	it's just for interview time complex is not very important :)
15:38:23	<Inst>	but there's a different problem with that code
15:38:40	<albet70>	quickSort [] = []
15:38:48	<Inst>	yeah :)
15:38:51	<albet70>	quickSort :: (Ord a) => [a] -> [a]
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15:39:23	<Inst>	also, that's going to do two traversals of the list per sort, do you think you can do it in one traversal?
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15:39:44	<Inst>	erm, per level, not per sort
15:40:23	<albet70>	I can't do it now
15:43:30	<EvanR>	I definitely had interviews where they wanted a faster algorithm to solve something
15:43:33	<EvanR>	jerks
15:43:45	<int-e>	lol
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15:44:52	<albet70>	that must be an algrithm engineer job
15:45:37	<EvanR>	yeah. ecommerce
15:45:40	<EvanR>	cutting edge
15:46:05	<albet70>	AI and algrithm engineer are very popular, and it ask very high skills and experience
15:46:27	<Inst>	when is Type replacing * by default, anyways?
15:46:39	<EvanR>	I thought AI was supposed to make it so I don't have to be smart
15:46:48	<EvanR>	or creative, or human
15:47:13	<albet70>	gpt 4o even can't produce functional haskell code yet
15:47:24	<Inst>	also btw, EvanR: impure energy can exist
15:47:28	<albet70>	AI is just another search engine I think
15:47:31	<EvanR>	i made working raylib bindings for me
15:47:38	<EvanR>	it, chat-gpt did
15:48:28	<albet70>	you can try to ask gpt 4o to generate a code that get title from a web link, see if it works
15:48:31	←	CATS parts (apic@brezn3.muc.ccc.de) ()
15:48:50	<Inst>	matter-energy is implictly impure energy, no?
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15:49:41	<albet70>	a few days ago, I tried that, the code gpt 4o produced can't work, and some functions it generated I can't find it on hoogle, it may copy it from some people's code
15:50:20	<EvanR>	Inst, are you channelling deepak chopra, this is a haskell channel
15:50:23	<albet70>	but it forget to copy that function's definition
15:50:42	<Inst>	sosrry for being pedantic
15:50:48	<Inst>	but then again, this is a haskell channel :3
15:51:14	<Inst>	well tbh it's not a term of art in physics
15:51:17	<Inst>	so i lose
15:51:28	<EvanR>	not pedantic but mistaking mystic metaphysics for science
15:52:42	<albet70>	use traverse's early return to write a function allEqual work on a list
15:53:36	<EvanR>	haskell code to do an HTTP get?
15:54:16	<Inst>	traverse isn't capable of early return iirc
15:54:26	<Inst>	unless by early return you mean throwing an exception
15:54:42	<Inst>	or it's working on a type that has early return baked in
15:54:46	<EvanR>	it depends on the Applicative
15:55:07	<ncf>	Writer All
15:55:27	<EvanR>	:t traverse
15:55:28	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
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15:56:44	<EvanR>	> sequenceA (Nothing : repeat (Just 'z'))
15:56:46	<lambdabot>	Nothing
15:56:49	<Inst>	(a -> Maybe a) -> [a] -> Maybe [a]
15:57:08	<EvanR>	it either returned early or lambdabot did hypercomputation
15:57:15	<ncf>	or s/Writer/Const/ i guess
15:57:16	<Inst>	hypercomputation?
15:57:26	<EvanR>	it went to the end of the infinite list before returning xD
15:58:22	<Inst>	raw data is a term of art in statistics, though
15:58:27	<ncf>	> getAll . getConst $ traverse (\n -> Const (All (even n))) [1..]
15:58:29	<lambdabot>	False
15:58:35	<albet70>	python try except version: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/guyWwXF9
15:58:50	<EvanR>	well in haskell we don't deal in raw data but in specific datatypes like Word8
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15:59:03	<EvanR>	which isn't special in the abstract haskell world
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15:59:16	<EvanR>	hardware may be optimized to handle it but that's another subject
15:59:22	<Inst>	serialized data, i guess
15:59:42	<EvanR>	you could serialize data using Word7 or Word9
16:00:12	<EvanR>	and raw data in statistics is probably not all Word8
16:00:56	<lisbeths>	i want to return ibis https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/iyr5fx5A/Screenshot_2024-08-19-08-59-08-512_com.termux.jpg
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16:01:49	<lisbeths>	i can do this in ghci but not in a file
16:02:14	<EvanR>	:t id id
16:02:15	<lambdabot>	a -> a
16:02:39	<EvanR>	that's not IO ()
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16:02:58	<EvanR>	the do has no effect there
16:03:04	<Inst>	that's so cool, btw
16:03:08	<albet70>	traverse is another version of fmap, I wonder is there other version of reduce or filter?
16:03:26	<Inst>	that doesn't work in ghci for me
16:03:29	<Inst>	i mean coding on your phone
16:03:42	<Inst>	traverse isn't another version of fmap
16:03:51	×	sprout_ quits (~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net) (Client Quit)
16:03:58	<EvanR>	yafmap
16:04:02	<EvanR>	yet another fmap
16:04:06	<EvanR>	and yeah it's not
16:04:33	<Inst>	lisbeths: I'm curious how you got it working in ghci, though
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16:04:45	<ncf>	there is a sense in which traverse is a generalisation of fmap (set f to the Identity applicative), so you can sort of see it as an "effectful fmap"
16:04:51	<ncf>	:t filterM
16:04:52	<lambdabot>	Applicative m => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
16:04:54	<ncf>	:t foldMapM
16:04:55	<lambdabot>	error:
16:04:56	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: foldMapM
16:04:56	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
16:05:06	<ncf>	:t foldM
16:05:07	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Monad m) => (b -> a -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
16:05:12	<lisbeths>	I am saying I can debug it in ghci but I dont have IO in ghc
16:05:40	<Inst>	you usually get the same error messages when ghc tries to compile
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16:05:46	<EvanR>	what happened to your IO in ghc
16:06:00	<EvanR>	that sounds problematic
16:06:31	<Inst>	albet70: Haskell has a ton of reduce-like functions, tbh
16:06:34	<Inst>	it's in Data.Foldable
16:06:42	<EvanR>	:t fold
16:06:42	<lisbeths>	i never learned IO. I need a function that prints an char to hegin
16:06:43	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
16:06:53	<Inst>	hegin?
16:07:02	<EvanR>	:t putChar
16:07:03	<lambdabot>	Char -> IO ()
16:07:06	<EvanR>	\o/
16:07:47	sprout_	is now known as sprout
16:07:48	<EvanR>	with putChar and getChar you are ready to implement the chinese room paradox
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16:08:58	→	euleritian joins (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
16:09:37	<albet70>	fmap, ap, bind, map,filter,reduce
16:10:10	<albet70>	map is wonderful
16:10:24	<albet70>	what's mapReduce?
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16:10:32	<EvanR>	map followed by reduce
16:10:57	→	segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@c-73-158-62-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
16:10:58	<albet70>	reduce . map?
16:11:31	<EvanR>	... sure
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16:12:01	<EvanR>	map followed by reduce in a general sense marketed by google
16:12:25	<Inst>	accumMapL or accumMapR, iirc
16:12:50	<EvanR>	:t mapAccumR
16:12:51	<lambdabot>	Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
16:13:15	<Inst>	mapAccumL
16:13:18	<Inst>	mapAccumR
16:13:38	<EvanR>	this is slightly different from map reduce
16:14:04	<EvanR>	it's a map which can update a state along the way
16:14:17	<albet70>	function compose give me a intuition, in python map(lambda xs: map(lambda x: f(x), xs), xss) is not intuition, but (fmap . fmap) f xss is very intuition
16:14:49	<Inst>	map reduce filters at the same time
16:14:58	<EvanR>	no
16:15:05	<EvanR>	no filtering
16:15:09	<Inst>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MapReduce ?
16:15:46	<EvanR>	reduce means you are getting a summary value
16:15:56	<EvanR>	map means you get something the same size as the input
16:16:13	<EvanR>	filter is a weird special case
16:17:39	<EvanR>	it makes sense for list... and there's this Witherable thing
16:18:43	<albet70>	it's late here, good night
16:18:47	×	pavonia quits (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
16:18:49	<Inst>	good night :)
16:19:10	<Inst>	do you think he's somehow doing Standard Chartered?
16:20:04	<Inst>	probably not
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16:22:30	<lisbeths>	i think my terminal may have the wrong locale? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/AFBMNhho/Screenshot_2024-08-19-09-21-38-808_com.termux.jpg
16:23:17	<glguy>	lisbeths: you should run the executable not the object file
16:23:53	<glguy>	GHC will make the executable executable; you won't need to chmod anything
16:24:10	<EvanR>	you tried to run the .o file
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16:25:06	<lisbeths>	i dont see a .exe I see a .hi
16:25:46	<glguy>	it won't have a file extension
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16:29:41	<lisbeths>	that worked hut it broke when I switched to putChar https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DeyPDHRO/Screenshot_2024-08-19-09-28-46-638_com.termux.jpg
16:31:22	<lisbeths>	could it be fastlisp-compiler.hs~ from emacs
16:32:13	<EvanR>	:t "h"
16:32:14	<lambdabot>	[Char]
16:32:17	<EvanR>	:t 'h'
16:32:18	<lambdabot>	Char
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16:32:27	<EvanR>	different quotes
16:33:03	<EvanR>	'h' is a Char while "h" is sugar for 'h':[]
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16:33:34	<lisbeths>	ok I have output
16:33:59	<lisbeths>	oroblem = solved for now
16:34:06	<EvanR>	you're not getting proper error messages
16:34:22	<EvanR>	it should have given you type errors for that mistake
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16:35:25	<rini>	is there a better way to say this: doIO <&> (>>= doMaybe)
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16:40:20	<lisbeths>	trying to define kestrel with lambda as let https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/eSddvGSU/Screenshot_2024-08-19-09-39-40-348_com.termux.jpg
16:41:03	<EvanR>	you didn't put ->
16:43:05	<lisbeths>	yep and I s/putchar/putChar
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16:48:49	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> given a type is there a way to automatically produce a value for it?
16:50:17	<EvanR>	:t undefined
16:50:18	<lambdabot>	a
16:50:52	<EvanR>	if that's not allowed it depends
16:52:00	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> that's a start ty
16:52:36	<geekosaur>	thirdofmay18081814goya, there is no way to generate values for an arbitrary unconstrained type. there are various constraints that provide ways to generate non-bottom values (for example, Arbitrary from QuickCheck, Default from data-default, Monoid from base)
16:52:52	<EvanR>	@djinn a -> b -> a
16:52:52	<lambdabot>	f a _ = a
16:53:08	<EvanR>	@jinn (a,b) -> (b,a)
16:53:09	<lambdabot>	f (a, b) = (b, a)
16:53:35	<mauke>	IIRC oleg has a "djinn"-like method
16:53:39	<lisbeths>	attempting to use let more deeply https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/D3K3GI3P/Screenshot_2024-08-19-09-52-47-869_com.termux.jpg
16:53:54	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: I see ty
16:54:22	<EvanR>	lisbeths, you're not using let at all
16:54:44	<lisbeths>	im not using haskell's let
16:54:50	<mauke>	you need to indent that whole thing
16:55:09	<lisbeths>	how many spaces, four?
16:55:09	<EvanR>	in what sense are you using let
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16:55:22	<mauke>	if "main" is in column 1, all parts of main's body must be indented at least 1 space
16:56:28	<mauke>	<mauke> I should port to Haskell <- that was supposed to say "port <ciso646>"
16:56:36	<mauke>	pwned by markdown
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17:03:50	<lisbeths>	forgot -> in last one. in this one type error https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/XWONhEUt/Screenshot_2024-08-19-10-02-45-353_com.termux.jpg
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17:05:00	<lisbeths>	i need these to be of anonymous type
17:05:41	<mauke>	kestrel putChar '1' putChar '0' == putChar putChar '0' == type error
17:05:53	<lisbeths>	ah
17:05:55	<EvanR>	you forgot or added too many arguments
17:06:17	<EvanR>	thank goodness for the type system because that code is hard
17:07:10	<mauke>	:t ?wtf putChar '0' :: IO ()
17:07:11	<lambdabot>	(?wtf::(Char -> IO ()) -> Char -> IO ()) => IO ()
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17:08:59	<lisbeths>	its just basic church encoding https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/nnhCzTyK/Screenshot_2024-08-19-10-08-18-242_com.termux.jpg
17:09:56	<lisbeths>	i have no idea how haskell types work
17:10:54	<mauke>	yes, now you're running into the problem that lambda isn't let
17:11:09	<mauke>	specifically, function arguments aren't polymorphic (by default)
17:11:20	<lisbeths>	u wot m8
17:11:29	<lisbeths>	y lambda no let
17:11:32	<mauke>	> (\id -> (id 'x', id ())) (\x -> x)
17:11:34	<lambdabot>	error:
17:11:34	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match expected type ‘Char’ with actual type ‘()’
17:11:34	<lambdabot>	• In the first argument of ‘id’, namely ‘()’
17:11:44	<mauke>	> let id = \x -> x in (id 'x', id ())
17:11:45	<lambdabot>	('x',())
17:12:17	<lisbeths>	id shouldnt have an x
17:12:58	<mauke>	?
17:13:01	<lisbeths>	solution: make new lambda that supports let
17:13:46	<EvanR>	> (\x -> let y = x in y) 'a'
17:13:48	<lambdabot>	'a'
17:14:17	<mauke>	> ((\id -> (id 'x', id ())) :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (Char, ())) (\x -> x)
17:14:18	<lambdabot>	('x',())
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17:16:14	<EvanR>	let polymorphism
17:16:19	<lisbeths>	🤔
17:16:22	<EvanR>	let generalization
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17:16:37	<lisbeths>	indeed, poly moph ism.......
17:16:37	<mauke>	let therebelight
17:17:14	<EvanR>	beware therebedragons
17:17:35	<lisbeths>	needing into lambdae polymorphae
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17:17:58	<Inst>	hmmm
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17:18:09	<Inst>	i'm wondering, does Haskell have any functions that declare themselves to be undefined behavior?
17:18:27	<EvanR>	:t unsafeCoerce
17:18:28	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: unsafeCoerce
17:18:45	<Inst>	unsafeCoerce afaik is platform dependent
17:19:10	<Inst>	sorry, I just thought it would have been funny to have a function named undefinedBehaviorCoerce
17:19:17	<Inst>	undefinedBehaviorCoerce = unsafeCoerce
17:19:18	<Inst>	there
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17:20:00	<lisbeths>	moly porphic types can change into a wet dog and into a wet dog jumping. whereas lambdas wants to be one type
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17:21:12	<lisbeths>	anonymously typed named polymorphic lambda calculi
17:21:33	<lisbeths>	of type clojure
17:21:35	<EvanR>	"anonymously typed"
17:21:36	<EvanR>	?
17:21:40	<lisbeths>	yes
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17:21:55	<lisbeths>	I think thats an ocaml terminology
17:22:26	<lisbeths>	type * -> *
17:22:54	<glguy>	anonymously typed probably only makes sense in a language that generates new types for certain kinds of syntax like how in rust or c++ you get an unnamable, freshly generated type when you use a lambda expression
17:23:05	<glguy>	but it doesn't really make sense to use that terminology in Haskell
17:23:17	<lisbeths>	I dont know haskell terms
17:23:33	<lisbeths>	I was raised by angry bash devs
17:23:38	<EvanR>	* -> * doesn't seem right
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17:23:47	<glguy>	That's fine, we'll just have you tell you when you use terms that don't make sense
17:24:01	<lisbeths>	sudo arem are f *
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17:26:20	<lisbeths>	I dont know my next course of action
17:26:49	<lisbeths>	need more different kinds of lambdas
17:27:04	<mauke>	have you tried using an untyped language?
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17:27:22	<EvanR>	anonymous record type or tuple is just a record type or tuple type it seems
17:27:22	<lisbeths>	what if I use a krivine machine
17:27:23	<glguy>	if you want to make some Haskell progress you might start with something like https://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html
17:27:39	<lisbeths>	narrow subset of haskell
17:28:04	<lisbeths>	krivine machine has non typed lambdas
17:28:31	<glguy>	Once you know what you're doing you can start worrying about implementing other abstract machines like that
17:29:10	<lisbeths>	krivine machine be only quad-functional its lets say 40 lines if you're me
17:29:49	<lisbeths>	ill use haskells let to build it
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17:30:46	<lisbeths>	uhhh is let l3xical?
17:32:44	<glguy>	The variables introduced by let are lexically scoped
17:33:10	<mauke>	unless you cheat
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17:36:10	<EvanR>	let x = y; y = x in y
17:36:47	<EvanR>	look y is referenced before it is defined
17:36:52	<lisbeths>	let does not seem to want in https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/AdjCdVbI/Screenshot_2024-08-19-10-35-39-442_com.termux.jpg
17:37:17	<EvanR>	get rid of do
17:37:26	<EvanR>	you didn't need it before either
17:37:41	<EvanR>	or else use the do-version of let
17:37:48	<EvanR>	which doesn't use in
17:37:49	<lisbeths>	doh!!!!
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17:38:59	<lisbeths>	success
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18:04:26	<monochrom>	Yeah Haskell is lexically scoped.
18:05:07	<monochrom>	I had some fun showing students that bash's "local" is dynamically scoped. They were horrified.
18:06:37	<monochrom>	On the bright side, I also had some fun using dynamic scoping to explain free theorems, as in explaining how to define the relation for a forall type.
18:07:20	<monochrom>	(The only application of dynamic scoping I have personally identified so far.)
18:08:34	<mauke>	could've shown them perl, too
18:10:23	<monochrom>	My course doesn't have time to teach perl. :)
18:10:42	<monochrom>	But OK, 2 decades ago the old version of that course included Perl.
18:10:43	<mauke>	perl (around version 2? 3? not sure) started with 'local' and dynamic scoping, then perl 5 added 'my', which declares proper lexically scoped variables
18:11:10	<monochrom>	Ah. I think I learned Perl 5 only.
18:11:32	<mauke>	perl 5 is where it became a real programming language :-)
18:12:18	<mauke>	adding local variables, general data structures, objects/methods/classes, first-class functions, and all the fun stuff
18:13:23	<mauke>	or you could go the Common Lisp route where LET creates either a lexical or a dynamic binding, depending on whether the identifier in question has the funny bit set
18:13:42	<mauke>	so you can never tell what (LET X ...) does in isolation
18:14:09	<mauke>	; er, that's (LET ((X 42)) ...), I think
18:17:17	<monochrom>	Yikes funny bit.
18:17:45	<monochrom>	Yeah the syntax is (let ((var1 expr1) (var2 expr2) ...) body)
18:18:32	<monochrom>	Always looks like more parens when you just want one variable, and forget that the syntax is designed to accomodate more.
18:18:37	<mauke>	I don't think "funny bit" is official terminology. I think it's actually called "special"
18:20:14	<mauke>	anyway, Common Lisp is great when you really need the semantics of your local bindings to depend on the exact identifiers you use
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19:18:44	<Inst>	monochrom, re that easy case
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19:19:06	<Inst>	hmmm, i'm wondering if it's possible to express that concept using fix
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19:21:41	<monochrom>	Tautologically and superficially, all programs can be expressed using fix.
19:23:06	<c_wraith>	(fix const) (the rest of the program)
19:23:07	<monochrom>	Example: "f = True" can be rewritten as "f = fix (const True)".
19:24:00	<c_wraith>	whoops, I needed a . in there
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19:27:23	<int-e>	monochrom: why not const True fix
19:30:14	<ncf>	:t fix . const
19:30:15	<lambdabot>	c -> c
19:30:17	<ncf>	:t ($ fix) . const
19:30:18	<lambdabot>	c -> c
19:30:24	<ncf>	fun
19:34:34	<ncf>	const <*> f = id @(domain of f)
19:37:22	<monochrom>	Can we meet in the middle? const (fix (const True)) fix >:)
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19:38:19	<monochrom>	OK, I have found that I have a serious error in my type inference tutorial.
19:39:14	<monochrom>	Coincidentally I am planning to give the exam question "infer the type of \f -> let x = f x in x", and when solving it myself I saw my omission.
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19:40:35	<monochrom>	For a recursive equation like "x = f x", you create an unknown ux for x, infer "f x" under x::ux, unify the answer with ux, then you can generalize.
19:40:45	<monochrom>	I forgot "unify the answer with ux".
19:41:49	<mauke>	what does that give you? (a -> a) -> b?
19:41:50	<monochrom>	So now the inference procedure I taught is broken. (\f -> let x = f x in x) becomes wrongly (ux -> ufx) -> ufx
19:41:55	<mauke>	oh
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19:42:29	<monochrom>	Now I have to think up a different exam question :(
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19:43:01	<c_wraith>	ask them to infer the type of loeb
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20:00:13	<scubagear>	Any recommended FRP libraries for games? Seems Yampa or Dunai can do SDL. Reflex seems a popular FRP library but it looks like it's more oriented to web apps.
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20:19:27	<scubagear>	Hm seems you could actually do SDL2 with Reflex. That's interesting.
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20:59:30	<[exa]>	Is there a warp/wai middleware that would make sure there's not too many concurrent requests being processed at once?
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21:00:19	<monochrom>	Would it be some kind of thread pool?
21:00:55	<monochrom>	Can it be solved by hardware? I.e., buy a 20-year-old 486. >:)
21:01:08	<monochrom>	Use a dial-up modem. >:)
21:01:43	<monochrom>	Wait, 486 is 30-year-old.
21:02:00	<Rembane>	The classic off by a decade error
21:02:38	<monochrom>	Time flies like a morphism. Fruit flies like an object.
21:03:09	<[exa]>	let's emulate the 486 in software tho
21:04:28	<Rembane>	Brrrrrrrrrrrrm
21:04:55	<[exa]>	my point is that with literally each web service I was running ever, we had to very carefully make sure that there are limits and it's not going to go explode (e.g. cause OOM) by someone simply opening enough connections and making them wait in the right moment.. now, looking at wai, warp, scotty, etc., there's absolutely no real treatise of these
21:05:00	<[exa]>	so kinda concerned
21:05:29	<[exa]>	perhaps I'm missing something obvious (is warp somehow magically resistant to this kind of DoS?)
21:05:39	<monochrom>	I think you do one-thread-per-client and limit that with a thread pool.
21:05:40	<EvanR>	it's probably not resistant
21:05:46	<EvanR>	security is hard
21:06:06	<EvanR>	DOS is pretty easy
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21:07:54	<monochrom>	You also have on-call experts who block IP addresses at the firewall/router in real time.
21:08:07	<monochrom>	maybe s/on-call/on-duty/
21:08:08	<[exa]>	monochrom: any fav implementation of the threadpool? or I just wing it with a TChan or so?
21:08:21	<EvanR>	MVar [ThreadID]
21:08:26	<monochrom>	I don't have one. I haven't done this.
21:08:27	<EvanR>	lol
21:09:01	<[exa]>	monochrom: yeah btw we've had these experts
21:09:10	<EvanR>	you don't really need a thread pool in concurrent haskell, you just spawn forkIO threads in the acceptor thread using your connection limit strategy
21:09:26	<EvanR>	java uses threadpools because they use "heavy weight" OS threads
21:09:39	<EvanR>	which are apparently slow enough to overengineer threadpools for everything
21:09:54	<[exa]>	EvanR: "connection limit strategy" is there something ready for this?
21:10:05	<[exa]>	maybe I just need to find where is the connection limiting knob for warp :D
21:10:22	<EvanR>	ok "it must be a wai middleware" makes it less trivial
21:10:56	<[exa]>	monochrom: you don't know why you pay them for like half a year and then the dns DDoS comes, and they have the passwords from the AS blackhole :D
21:11:11	<[exa]>	EvanR: doesn't really need to be a middleware
21:11:24	<[exa]>	more like anything that I don't need to do from scratch again :D
21:12:21	<[exa]>	otoh the MVar with thread IDs (+ an integer) might fit in like 10 lines
21:12:38	<EvanR>	that was basically a joke
21:12:51	[exa]	sad
21:12:55	<EvanR>	no need to hold onto dormant thread IDs
21:13:01	<EvanR>	just forkIO on demand
21:13:27	<EvanR>	but this is something that would be done inside the wai middleware
21:13:39	<EvanR>	aiui
21:15:01	<EvanR>	the core Var I imagine is a TVar Int saying how many free slots are left, each request thread being wrapped in a finally which bumps the Int back
21:15:26	<EvanR>	which if the acceptor thread is waiting for 0 to go above 0, wakes up the acceptor thread
21:16:54	<[exa]>	ok there's 2 WAI ratelimiting middlewares in hackage but no concurrency limiting one
21:17:30	<[exa]>	I'll assume that I'm searching wrong for today and see tomorrow, if there's still nothing I'll just code this :D
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21:17:36	<[exa]>	EvanR monochrom: thanks a lot!
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22:11:59	<esnos>	Hi, do you know why here I get "parser: parse error on input '\|'" in this code?
22:12:08	<esnos>	g s =
22:12:08	<esnos>	let result = runParser (Parser f) s
22:12:08	<esnos>	in \| isNothing result = Nothing
22:12:08	<esnos>	\| otherwise =
22:12:11	<esnos>	let Just (fRest, strRest) = result
22:12:14	<esnos>	in first fRest <$> runParser (Parser a) strRest
22:13:06	<geekosaur>	you can't put guards after "let ... in"
22:13:53	<geekosaur>	what you can do is put the definition of `result` in a `where` clause and use it within guards
22:14:07	<esnos>	So I have to just use guards with where, or let with case of?
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22:14:47	<ncf>	or let with MultiWayIf
22:15:35	<EvanR>	or guards on top level definitions
22:16:08	<mauke>	why use let at all
22:17:02	<mauke>	g s = case runParser (Parser f) s of { Nothing -> Nothing; Just (fRest, strRest) -> first fRest <$> runParser (Parser a) strRest }
22:19:49	<esnos>	mauke: I just wanted to know if I can do that
22:21:26	<esnos>	I'm trying to read Haskell languare report and there is line
22:22:09	<geekosaur>	guards always come before the =
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22:22:25	<esnos>	lexp → let decls in exp, which means that there must be expression after "in", so guards are not expressions and case of are?
22:22:50	<mauke>	guards are attached to a pattern
22:22:52	<geekosaur>	case of is an expression, yes. guards are part of a definition, not an expression
22:23:02	<geekosaur>	or patterns in general, yes
22:23:31	<geekosaur>	(exception: with MultiWayIf you can write `if \| ...`, but it only works with `if`)
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22:24:45	<mauke>	> case Just 5 of { Just x \| even x -> True; _ -> False }
22:24:47	<lambdabot>	False
22:27:02	<esnos>	Ok, I think I understand now, thanks everyone for help
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