Logs on 2024-08-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:16:21 | <albet70> | :t lift |
| 01:16:23 | <lambdabot> | (MonadTrans t, Monad m) => m a -> t m a |
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| 01:20:56 | <albet70> | fmap lift f into m a? |
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| 01:24:30 | <albet70> | :t lift id |
| 01:24:31 | <lambdabot> | MonadTrans t => t ((->) a) a |
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| 01:55:22 | <SrPx> | is GHC WASM still extremely experimental, and expected to have terrible performance (like thousands of times slower than native) or am I doing something wrong? |
| 01:55:30 | <SrPx> | SO: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/78890346/simple-recursive-sum-when-compiled-from-haskell-to-wasm-is-quadratic |
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| 01:59:10 | <geekosaur> | definitely still experimental and has performance issues, but that seems excessive |
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| 02:17:19 | <monochrom> | Perhaps traversing a stack is linear-time, so traversing a stack linearly many times is quadratic time. |
| 02:18:19 | <monochrom> | I wouldn't worry about the very naive and undesirable approach of "f n = n + f (n-1)". |
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| 02:18:54 | <monochrom> | Show me that `foldl' (+)` exceeds linear time, then I will worry. |
| 02:19:33 | <monochrom> | Or binary-search-tree lookup exceeds O(tree height) time. |
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| 02:23:41 | <monochrom> | This is what's wrong with people mistaking Project Euler for "learn a new language" by writing brute-forcing algorithms. |
| 02:24:06 | <monochrom> | Combined with their entitlement attitudes, they now expect brute-forcing to be constant-time operations! |
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| 02:30:05 | <Axman6> | We'll see who's laughing when we finally have quantum computers, HA HA HAAA! |
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| 02:33:32 | <monochrom> | That will be people like David Deutsch (creator of the quantum factorization algorithm) and Jonathan Dowling (author of Schrödinger's Killer App: Race to Build the World's First Quantum Computer) who are not afraid of linear algebra with complex numbers and maybe a little bit of number theory. |
| 02:33:52 | <monochrom> | which mean none of the brute-forcing code monkeys. |
| 02:34:32 | <monochrom> | Quantum computer is just vector spaces over the complex numbers. |
| 02:34:38 | <monochrom> | s/computer/computing/ |
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| 02:51:11 | <albet70> | "it's probably worth reminding that lifts should respect that standard laws lift id == id and lift (f . g) == (lift f) . (lift g)" in https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2395697/what-is-lifting-in-haskell, that lift is not from Control.Monad.Trans.Class, right? what he mean is fmap? |
| 02:52:07 | <monochrom> | That's fmap. |
| 02:52:18 | <dolio> | Depends. |
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| 02:52:55 | <dolio> | In a Kleisli category, id = return and (.) = (<=<). Then those are rules for MonadTrans. |
| 02:53:22 | <monochrom> | Fortunately, "fmap" is still right for that. >:) |
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| 02:56:25 | <dolio> | I guess they're not quite right, but they're rules if you made the operation (lift .) instead. |
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| 06:40:23 | <dminuoso> | 02:17:19 monochrom │ Perhaps traversing a stack is linear-time, so traversing a stack linearly many times is quadratic time. |
| 06:41:59 | <dminuoso> | So I do wonder, whether constant time access of memory is really a useful assumption - and I'm not just referring to things like black hole theorems, but cache hierarchies. |
| 06:42:13 | <dminuoso> | (Funnily this extends to not just caches but NUMA architectures as well) |
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| 06:43:14 | <dminuoso> | Especially since if a discussion starts off with "performance issues" its safe to say that the discussion is clearly centered around real-world hardware and its behavior |
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| 06:43:33 | <dminuoso> | So we should take real-world implementations and behavior into account for asymptotics. |
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| 07:06:39 | <Leary> | dminuoso: There are much more fundamental issues to resolve first, like replacing the irrelevant concept of asymptotics entirely. Let's actually model runtime costs within the applicable finite domain, constants included. |
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| 08:18:36 | <Franciman> | yes monochrom and haskell is just assembly |
| 08:19:13 | <Franciman> | lol |
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| 09:40:43 | <albet70> | whats the function name that fold with initial value? |
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| 09:43:38 | <albet70> | foldl |
| 09:45:07 | <danse-nr3> | or foldr. They have significant differences in terms of the evaluation dynamics, there is a good post on haskell wiki about it |
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| 09:52:04 | <albet70> | why python function can have variable parameter? I dont see that in haskell, for example, reduce in python take two parameter is behavior like foldl1, but with three parameter is foldl, map in python with two parameter is fmap, with three is zipWith |
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| 09:53:37 | <albet70> | how that a function can be a binary and unary at the same time |
| 09:54:08 | <albet70> | function overloading in other language? |
| 09:54:12 | <probie> | All python functions take an extra two hidden parameters; *args and **kwargs, and the syntax "hides" that |
| 09:56:17 | <probie> | I `f` excepts one parameter, and I call it like, `f(x,y,z,key=val,magic=bad)` what happens is that `f` is called with that one parameter set to `x`, `*args` set to `[y, z]` and `**kwags` set to `{ "key": val, "magic", bad }` |
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| 10:00:44 | <probie> | Haskell just doesn't support any of this. If you want to take a list of args, add that as a parameter, if you want key->value pairs, add that as a parameter. Implicit optional and named arguments make currying harder |
| 10:01:31 | <probie> | that said, it's not impossible to have both; I'm fairly sure OCaml does |
| 10:01:34 | <albet70> | variadic functions |
| 10:05:25 | <probie> | That said, functions in Haskell _can_ be variadic by (ab)using the type class machinery |
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| 10:05:55 | <danse-nr3> | i discourage going for that. Just make a sum type with the alternatives |
| 10:05:59 | <jackdk> | Variadic functions confuse more than they assist IME |
| 10:06:34 | <probie> | > printf "%f %s %d" (pi :: Double) "is not" (3 :: Int) :: String |
| 10:06:36 | <lambdabot> | "3.141592653589793 is not 3" |
| 10:06:43 | <probie> | :t printf |
| 10:06:44 | <lambdabot> | PrintfType r => String -> r |
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| 11:35:58 | <dminuoso> | probie: To call them "hidden parameters" is a bit.. strange. |
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| 11:37:09 | <dminuoso> | And saying that all functions take them is more than an exaggeration too. |
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| 11:37:29 | <dminuoso> | Because you're heavily conflating internal implementation with external behavior. |
| 11:37:50 | <dminuoso> | All haskell functions are variadic because they are just passed on a potentially infinite stack in STG. |
| 11:37:57 | <dminuoso> | The haskell syntax just "hides" this. |
| 11:38:08 | <dminuoso> | Its also true, but not useful to say. |
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| 11:40:00 | <dminuoso> | Also, nothing stops you from just accepting [Dynamic] and `Map String Dynamic` arguments but your pride. |
| 11:40:45 | <dminuoso> | Unless you are also willing to acknoledge that dealing with these unshaped/untyped types is a bad idea. |
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| 11:42:00 | <kuribas> | In haskell you use combinators instead of variadic functions. |
| 11:42:05 | <kuribas> | For example, the format library. |
| 11:42:21 | <kuribas> | Each combinator does just a single thing. |
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| 11:44:43 | <dminuoso> | Heck, at least the [Dynamic] thing works relatively easy. You can pattern match a bunch of arguments easily: foo a1:a2:_ = g (fromDyn a1) (fromDyn a2) |
| 11:44:58 | <dminuoso> | It blows up about as nicely as python code does. |
| 11:45:22 | <kuribas> | probably nicer |
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| 13:20:15 | <Leary> | Unsolicited pro-tip of the day: when disentangling IO from STM for bonus atomicity, `join . atomically`, `Monoid a => Monoid (STM (IO a))` and `$>` are your friends. |
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| 13:33:36 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> where does cabal look for build tools used in build-tool-depends? |
| 13:42:43 | <ncf> | hackage |
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| 14:13:33 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> sorry my mistake, where does cabal store the executables after downloading them? the library dependencies are stored in package databases for which exist tools to manipulate and work with which comba |
| 14:14:13 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> which combination of format + Env var do i need to manually do that? |
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| 14:26:46 | <rini> | probie: ocaml has optional arguments, but you have to name them when calling: foo ~arg:1 |
| 14:29:07 | <rini> | I actually wish haskell had this, but the type system gives you lots of alternatives anyway |
| 14:29:21 | <rini> | I really like how blaze-html does attributes for example |
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| 14:35:46 | <EvanR> | in languages which has 1 API function that takes a random combination of arguments, sometimes a string with an embedded configuration language, I always want differently named functions with different APIs |
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| 14:36:03 | <EvanR> | it's great that haskell basically does this, whether or not it is required |
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| 14:47:47 | <merijn> | eldritchcookie: Executables installed by cabal are installed inside the global store (i.e. where the libraries are too) |
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| 14:49:27 | <merijn> | ~/.cabal/config should have settings to control where executables are put and whether they are symlinked or copied |
| 14:54:07 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> so can i assume it will look for the executables in CABAL_DIR? |
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| 15:10:33 | <merijn> | I think the store is by default a sub directory of CABAL_DIR, so kinda? |
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| 17:06:44 | <Leary> | A while back I posted my small (~120 loc) incremental computation implementation here. I've since made it more robust and averse to repeating work, if anyone's interested: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/da963da122946d981b4b143cbcf3dd73 |
| 17:07:17 | <Leary> | Disclaimer: I've not yet tested my changes, only handwaved that they're correct. |
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| 17:41:46 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:54:49 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, does anyone has any nix configuration to build static haskell binaries? |
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| 18:21:44 | <lxsameer> | I'm trying to build my project statically linked. But it links againt libelf for some reason. Is that normal? |
| 18:22:11 | <JuanDaugherty> | on linux |
| 18:22:39 | <lxsameer> | yupe |
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| 18:22:58 | <JuanDaugherty> | i meant elf is the basic executable format there |
| 18:23:29 | <lxsameer> | yeah i know, but why to link against it? |
| 18:24:07 | <JuanDaugherty> | to so stuff, fancy stuff, this am hs |
| 18:24:13 | <JuanDaugherty> | *to do |
| 18:24:51 | <JuanDaugherty> | fancy basic in this case |
| 18:25:10 | <JuanDaugherty> | maybe if ur llvming |
| 18:25:24 | <lxsameer> | no llvm |
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| 18:31:43 | <EvanR> | no libelf here |
| 18:32:33 | <lxsameer> | hmmm i don't know why, i don't see any like to libelf on my other projects either |
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| 18:34:53 | <geekosaur> | are you using a ghc with dwarf-unwind? I believe it needs -lelf and -ldw in that case |
| 18:36:51 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: probably, is that for debugging mode or something? |
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| 18:37:20 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 18:38:17 | <geekosaur> | it means you get readable backtraces. but it requires a nonstandard ghc/rts build; the standard ones from e.g. ghcup or stack don't include it |
| 18:39:20 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: ah ok, so probably the default ghc in Nixpkgs comes with dwarf data support |
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| 20:30:14 | <esnos> | How can I hide only Applicative implementation of [], but still have Applicative class and [] defined? |
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| 20:32:08 | <glguy> | esnos: no, you can't hide instances |
| 20:32:22 | <c_wraith> | esnos: the only real way to do that is put the Applicative instance and all code that uses it in a module that isn't normally imported. instances are exported automatically and transitively, though, so it's very hard for this to end up being worth anything |
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| 20:39:46 | <EvanR> | you can use a newtype wrapper / unwrapper to choose an alternate instance for [] |
| 20:40:05 | <esnos> | I understand, thanks for answers. I will probably just use wrapper then |
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| 21:21:15 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> could "reflex-dom" eventually become more comfortable than "React" jsx for someone skilled? it feels unwieldy |
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| 21:26:28 | <c_wraith> | reflex has a very high learning curve |
| 21:26:56 | <c_wraith> | I've honestly never made it to the "comfortable" side of it. |
| 21:27:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> the frp part is one thing, but what I'm wondering about is "reflex-dom" particularly |
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| 21:34:51 | <c_wraith> | reflex-dom is not really much more to learn that reflex by itself. You need to think more in terms of DOM than HTML, but if you've been doing web stuff for a while that part should be familiar. |
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| 21:55:17 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I see thanks for comments! |
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| 23:59:41 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
All times are in UTC on 2024-08-20.