Logs on 2024-08-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:42:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> how do I recurse in this fashion? |
| 01:42:46 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/CmOqWlcLzUZizmURmnYiHGeE (4 lines) |
| 01:43:45 | <Axman6> | > iterate (f i) a |
| 01:43:47 | <lambdabot> | [a,f i a,f i (f i a),f i (f i (f i a)),f i (f i (f i (f i a))),f i (f i (f i... |
| 01:43:57 | <Axman6> | hmm, not quite |
| 01:44:31 | <Axman6> | > scanl f i (repeat a) |
| 01:44:33 | <lambdabot> | [i,f i a,f (f i a) a,f (f (f i a) a) a,f (f (f (f i a) a) a) a,f (f (f (f (f... |
| 01:45:09 | <geekosaur> | > scanl (*) i (repeat a) |
| 01:45:10 | <lambdabot> | [i,i * a,i * a * a,i * a * a * a,i * a * a * a * a,i * a * a * a * a * a,i *... |
| 01:47:43 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> thanks!! |
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| 01:57:57 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> out of curiosity, is there a lower level approach? |
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| 01:59:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> through an explicit call to a recursing function |
| 02:01:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * a self-referential function definition |
| 02:01:23 | <Axman6> | I;m not sure what you mean |
| 02:01:41 | <Axman6> | sure, you could write that trivially |
| 02:02:07 | <Axman6> | you could even use fix |
| 02:02:23 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> there's my excuse to learn about fix, ty! |
| 02:03:05 | <Axman6> | I'm struggling to think how you'd do it with fix, but it's definitely possible |
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| 02:05:14 | <Axman6> | but they should all compile to exactly the same thing. if the scanl approach makes sense there's no good reason to use anything else |
| 02:05:41 | <monochrom> | Just use fix to implement scanl. |
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| 02:37:11 | <albet70> | why [] :: [[Int]] is ok? |
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| 02:38:55 | <monochrom> | Why not? |
| 02:39:13 | <monochrom> | [] :: [A] is ok regardless of A. Oh today A = [Int]. |
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| 02:39:52 | <albet70> | like Nothing :: Maybe (Maybe a)? |
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| 02:44:13 | <albet70> | I see, thanks |
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| 03:43:14 | <jle`> | albet70: you could even have Nothing :: Maybe [a] |
| 03:43:25 | <jle`> | the possibilities are endless |
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| 04:09:31 | <Inst> | which does get me to thinking |
| 04:09:48 | <Inst> | [] :: [a], does it imply some form of subtyping? |
| 04:10:05 | <Inst> | as in, would [] :: [Int] be a subtype of [a]? |
| 04:13:41 | <Leary> | Inst: With some care for your quantifiers, we have `forall a. F a` <: `F A`. Also: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/0d3bf054f73c08910a6da2cfb49a4c28 |
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| 04:16:48 | <Leary> | With an `exists` quantifier we would also have an upper bound: `F A` <: `exists a. F a` |
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| 04:30:22 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> wrt. an implementation with "fix", it's not quite "fix (\x -> x ``f`` a)" nor "i ``f`` (fix (\x -> x ``f`` a)" |
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| 04:35:53 | <Axman6> | the easiest mechanical translation would be to expand out the definition of scanl and replace all calls to scanl f z with the first argument to the lambda |
| 04:35:56 | <Axman6> | @src scanl |
| 04:35:56 | <lambdabot> | scanl f q ls = q : case ls of |
| 04:35:56 | <lambdabot> | [] -> [] |
| 04:35:56 | <lambdabot> | x:xs -> scanl f (f q x) xs |
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| 04:52:16 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i see |
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| 05:17:18 | <Axman6> | > take 5 $ fix (\rec x -> x : rec (x `f` a)) i |
| 05:17:19 | <lambdabot> | [i,f i a,f (f i a) a,f (f (f i a) a) a,f (f (f (f i a) a) a) a] |
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| 05:23:45 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Axman6: very cool! thanks |
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| 07:35:00 | <[exa]> | is there some easiest canonical way to "poke" a ByteString into memory pointed to by a Ptr? |
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| 07:36:36 | <jackdk> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.2.0/docs/Data-ByteString.html#g:25 ? |
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| 07:40:22 | <[exa]> | that copies out the CString, which is a little inconvenient |
| 07:40:47 | <[exa]> | at this point I found that I can do `unsafeUseAsCStringLen` and then `copyBytes` but see, there's the `unsafe` keyword there :) |
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| 07:43:17 | <geekosaur> | sadly, I think you can't do this without using unsafe functions |
| 07:44:14 | <jackdk> | At which point you're copying out the bytes, aren't you? |
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| 07:58:19 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: Mind my asking, what is the context? |
| 07:59:05 | <dminuoso> | data ByteString = BS {-# UNPACK #-} !(ForeignPtr Word8) {-# UNPACK #-} !Int |
| 07:59:11 | <dminuoso> | Is there any chance you could perhaps just use the ForeignPtr itself? |
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| 08:38:12 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: actually still working on that data structure I was asking about last time... I recall it was you sending me the custom binary writer, right? :] |
| 08:38:32 | <dminuoso> | I cant quite recall, I'm sorry. |
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| 08:38:46 | <[exa]> | np :] |
| 08:39:28 | <[exa]> | I'm writing a huge skiplist where the integer sizes vary, so I have to build it from "behind" to know how much to skip (thus knowing how much to allocate for the skips) |
| 08:39:53 | <[exa]> | and sometimes there's a small binary blob in the skiplist, which is in bytestring before serialization |
| 08:40:03 | <dminuoso> | Oh you mean with a reverse writer? |
| 08:40:12 | <dminuoso> | That sounds like something I would have told you about. |
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| 08:41:17 | <[exa]> | yeah I've got a generic reverse writer, write the whole thing into a dummy one to measure the size, then actually allocate (mmap) a file and write it for the reals |
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| 08:41:57 | <dminuoso> | Why not just realloc? |
| 08:42:17 | <dminuoso> | Oh I see, file. |
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| 10:21:01 | <kuribas> | Anyone going to munihac? |
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| 10:56:53 | <dminuoso> | I probably will. |
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| 12:01:02 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> anyone else is really peeved that wherever there are xN functions they aren't consistent cross module? like zip/zipWith goes up to 7, curry has no variants, and liftM goes until 5 |
| 12:01:54 | <dminuoso> | eldritchcookie: No they are likely just the result of individual people needing a particular function extended to T and upstreaming those patches. |
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| 12:04:14 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> well thoeretically everyone can need it up to the tuple limit of 64, which seems to be a point that we can all agree may be too much |
| 12:04:31 | <dminuoso> | Funny bit, do you know why the tuple limit is at 64? |
| 12:05:37 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> because someone needed 64 valueas of 8 bits if i am not mistaken |
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| 12:08:04 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> if am i remembering correctly someone complained they couldn't you the pack/unpack primop of 64 8 bit integers so they expanded up to that |
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| 12:12:24 | <kuribas> | in idris (a, b, c) is equal to (a, (b, c)) |
| 12:12:29 | <kuribas> | I like it. |
| 12:12:58 | <dminuoso> | eldritchcookie: No the limit used to be higher. But it turns out that for reasons nobody could figure out you would get segfaults if tuples had gotten longer. |
| 12:13:10 | <dminuoso> | And someone decided to just stop spending their time on this, limiting them to 64. |
| 12:13:28 | <dminuoso> | It's unclear whether the memory issue is still there or not, dont think anyone has tried lifting that restriction. |
| 12:13:36 | <dminuoso> | There's still a note about this in one of the GHC files. |
| 12:14:00 | <danse-nr3> | looks like a good idea |
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| 12:25:09 | <lortabac> | kuribas: that's also true in GHC for constraint tuples. But I guess at term-level the performance trade-off was not considered acceptable |
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| 12:26:07 | <dminuoso> | eldrichcookie: 4cf0bb2b9cb6192a212ab74aba3513ba289a47d9 is the last commit I can chase at this point. |
| 12:26:27 | <dminuoso> | Some years ago I did a lot more research on this, but I cannot recall many of the details anymore. |
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| 13:30:31 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> in all cases, any statement containing a "fix" of a function with no final outermost application will necessarily overflow, right? such as "fix (\x -> x + 0)" |
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| 13:33:46 | <ncf> | depends on what you mean by "final outermost application" and "overflow" |
| 13:34:04 | <ncf> | > fix (\x -> 0 : x) |
| 13:34:06 | <lambdabot> | [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0... |
| 13:35:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: I mean any function that recurses like: |
| 13:35:21 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/GaxNZUwXFEhpyeDWiIMmZqQm (7 lines) |
| 13:35:45 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> I mean any function that recurses like: |
| 13:35:45 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/sukGxNokHKqWuIkVwWXXdpMN (7 lines) |
| 13:36:06 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * ``f`` a) ``f`` a) ``f`` |
| 13:36:11 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> I mean any function that recurses like: |
| 13:36:11 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/lPaKvKMdEyvIVRlpaDnkxWmc (7 lines) |
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| 13:45:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> we can make a scan-like version which will not diverge, but as it is it would necessarily diverge right? |
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| 13:47:24 | <mauke> | > fix (\x -> 0 + x) :: Expr |
| 13:47:26 | <lambdabot> | 0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0 + (0... |
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| 13:52:50 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> mauke: hm where is "Expr" from? |
| 13:53:29 | <EvanR> | final outermost application, maybe you mean head of the expression, or in another language tail position |
| 13:54:02 | <EvanR> | what's the only other thing it could be besides application, case of? |
| 13:55:42 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-reflect-0.3.3 |
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| 14:00:09 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: hm right, I'm reading on the definition, I think I mean that the function has no final tail position |
| 14:00:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> mauke: hm thanks, necessarily these are only printed strings that cannot be used in actual statements right? |
| 14:00:30 | <EvanR> | final is a weird word for this at least in haskell |
| 14:00:47 | <EvanR> | Expr isn't a string |
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| 14:02:43 | <EvanR> | normal order evaluation evaluates the head of the expression first, not last |
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| 14:03:48 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: right, so such a function must overflow right? |
| 14:03:59 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> we never get to a statement we can evaluate |
| 14:04:57 | <EvanR> | if the next top expression was always application and never a lambda or constructor, it would never terminate |
| 14:05:06 | <EvanR> | but it didn't think that was your scenario |
| 14:05:16 | <EvanR> | you said there was NO application |
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| 14:05:44 | <EvanR> | s/it/I/ |
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| 14:06:47 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> no last such application right |
| 14:06:52 | <EvanR> | last? |
| 14:07:04 | <EvanR> | last in time? |
| 14:07:23 | <EvanR> | in an infinite loop that makes sense, no end |
| 14:07:52 | <EvanR> | but you said outermost so it sounded like you were talking about space, and so I think maybe you have some fundamental misconception |
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| 14:07:58 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> I'm not sure, I think I need to delve a bit deeper on how this all, I'm not sure I can give a strictier meaning to last from my current understanding |
| 14:08:05 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> on how this all works* |
| 14:08:14 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> to 'last' |
| 14:08:47 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what general topic should clear this up? how an interpreter works? |
| 14:08:51 | <EvanR> | in the infinite expression above 0 + (0 + (0 + (..., it's a good example to disentangle all the kinds of concepts |
| 14:09:12 | <EvanR> | question, can you evaluate this expression to WHNF |
| 14:09:22 | <EvanR> | what about normal form |
| 14:09:32 | <EvanR> | what else do you need to know to answer |
| 14:10:29 | <EvanR> | now how an interpreter works but how lazy evaluation works |
| 14:10:51 | <EvanR> | and how that's different from evaluation in an eager language |
| 14:11:11 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: will start reading on WHNF, normal form, and lazy evaluation. thanks a lot for the keywords |
| 14:11:38 | <EvanR> | weak head normal form |
| 14:12:17 | <EvanR> | and haskell doesn't have statements, only expressions |
| 14:12:33 | <EvanR> | even do notation desugars to an expression |
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| 14:15:51 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> Huh. Are newtypes transparent wrt WHNF? |
| 14:16:52 | <dolio> | They're just the underlying thing, if that's what you mean. |
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| 14:19:35 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> I mean you can't just say "evaluate until the outermost layer is a lambda or a constructor" |
| 14:20:54 | <EvanR> | pretend newtypes don't exist |
| 14:21:51 | <EvanR> | > Identity undefined `seq` 'a' |
| 14:21:53 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
| 14:22:26 | <EvanR> | > Just undefined `seq` 'a' |
| 14:22:28 | <lambdabot> | 'a' |
| 14:25:13 | <EvanR> | you can also point out strict fields as another caveat |
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| 14:30:22 | <lortabac> | thirdofmay18081814goya: I'm not sure I understand your question. If you meant "do all 'fix' applications necessarily diverge?" then no |
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| 14:30:31 | <lortabac> | > fix (_ -> 0) |
| 14:30:33 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:30:33 | <lambdabot> | Pattern syntax in expression context: _ -> 0 |
| 14:30:39 | <lortabac> | > fix (\_ -> 0) |
| 14:30:41 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 14:31:07 | <lortabac> | in order to recurse you need to call the argument of the lambda. If you don't call it recursion doesn't happen |
| 14:31:23 | <lortabac> | but maybe I misunderstood your question |
| 14:32:02 | <EvanR> | I think the question is based on a complete misunderstanding of what is even being evaluated |
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| 14:35:25 | <lortabac> | > fix (\f n -> if n == 1 then n else n * f (n - 1)) 10 -- factorial of 10 |
| 14:35:27 | <lambdabot> | 3628800 |
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| 14:36:11 | <lortabac> | in order to stop the recursion you just don't use the recursive argument |
| 14:37:41 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: would you say the revised haskell 98 report is a good source? |
| 14:37:58 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> lortabac: thanks for the examples, am a bit confused so I'll do more reading |
| 14:38:03 | <EvanR> | that's a good read |
| 14:38:17 | <EvanR> | a good source |
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| 16:53:30 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> Why not go for the 2010 (current) version? |
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| 17:12:12 | <mreh> | looks like hoogle is down |
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| 17:17:34 | <davean> | mreh: its restarting. |
| 17:17:46 | <davean> | Its restart is like 20+ minutes :( |
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| 17:19:57 | <mreh> | gotta rebuild that database I guess |
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| 17:21:06 | <davean> | I'm sure someone could give its codebase some love and care. |
| 17:21:28 | <davean> | It could use it. |
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| 17:39:22 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> mauke: ah had not seen this report was out |
| 17:39:30 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty |
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| 17:47:05 | <davean> | mreh: back up |
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| 17:53:51 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> only with denotational semantics can I prove a haskell function has some property, right? |
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| 18:07:06 | <EvanR> | not the only way |
| 18:07:37 | <EvanR> | but it might boil down the what the property is |
| 18:07:51 | <EvanR> | but there are many modes of reasoning out there |
| 18:08:09 | <ncf> | you need some kind of semantics to even *state* the property you want to prove |
| 18:08:58 | <EvanR> | not necessarily, the property may be written out, and you just have to use rules of syntax to get something that matches the literal statement |
| 18:09:41 | <EvanR> | which can be confusing when haskell's semantics are given as something that looks very close to the syntax |
| 18:10:17 | <EvanR> | but what is the property! |
| 18:10:39 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> divergence of a recursive function |
| 18:12:39 | <EvanR> | i.e. f ⊥ = ⊥ ? |
| 18:12:47 | <EvanR> | f x = ⊥ |
| 18:12:52 | <EvanR> | for any x |
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| 18:13:54 | <EvanR> | you know it's semantics because ⊥ is involved |
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| 18:36:04 | <probie> | Does anyone have much experience getting TH to work when cross-compiling? The docs about how to use an "external interpreter" are a bit vague. |
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| 18:44:18 | <geekosaur> | pretty sure no matter what you do, you're in for extreme pain |
| 18:46:02 | <probie> | I think it's even worse because the cross compilation target is wasm |
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| 18:47:03 | <geekosaur> | actually I'd expect that to be simpler, the ghc-iserv that is built in the wasm cross-compiler should just work with -fexternal-interpreter |
| 18:47:32 | <geekosaur> | a normal cross-compiler would require you to run its ghc-iserv on a machine (or emulator therefor) compatible with the target |
| 18:51:34 | <probie> | Maybe I should just try it myself and see what happens (I'm asking on behalf of someone else and haven't actually tried anything) |
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| 19:56:36 | <probie> | So unless I'm doing something wrong, it doesn't build a ghc-iserv at all |
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| 20:53:54 | <dmj`> | probie: I've ran ghc-iserv on an iPhone, where the build machine sent build requests to the iPhone to compile TH splices over the network. It was not fun. |
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| 22:28:20 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> turns out proving a recursive function diverges is an absolute pain, you need heavy domain theory |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-08-22.