Logs on 2024-08-25 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:53:30 | youthlic1 | is now known as youthlic |
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| 02:11:11 | <liamzy__> | __monty__ |
| 02:11:12 | <liamzy__> | sorry |
| 02:11:14 | liamzy__ | is now known as Inst |
| 02:12:01 | <Inst> | https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/program/binarytrees-ghc-8.html |
| 02:12:03 | <Inst> | I mean this stuff |
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| 07:44:09 | <regev> | hey there, haskell newbie here, im currently learning haskell from "Learn you a Haskell" and im reading about typeclasses. I was wondering if someone has a comprehensive chart that shows the hierarcy of the default typeclasses is haskell? |
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| 07:45:11 | <Franciman> | hi regev maybe you can like typeclassopedia |
| 07:45:45 | <Franciman> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia there is a graph here |
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| 10:14:05 | <regev> | hey there, haskell newbie here, im currently learning haskell from "Learn you a Haskell" and im reading about typeclasses. I was wondering if someone has a │ _d0t |
| 10:14:05 | <regev> | │ | comprehensive chart that shows the hierarcy of the default typeclasses is haskell?y |
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| 10:14:59 | <regev> | oops, tried to copy paste :) |
| 10:15:13 | <sm> | you saw Franciman's previous answer ? https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia |
| 10:15:27 | <regev> | typing again so its readable: does anyone have a comprehensive chart of all default typeclasses in haskell? |
| 10:15:44 | <regev> | nope i exited, sorry |
| 10:15:53 | <sm> | well there it is :) |
| 10:16:43 | <regev> | thank you! |
| 10:18:09 | <sm> | don't feel as a newbie you must master all of this |
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| 10:25:33 | <mauke> | doesn't even mention Ix |
| 10:26:38 | <mauke> | as a beginner, the most important classes are probably Show, Eq, Ord, Num |
| 10:26:47 | <mauke> | Enum and Functor if you want to get fancy |
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| 11:19:21 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> Enum and Bounded i can agree but Functor is broadly useful and easy to get an intuition for i would be more undecided on Applicative and Monad but you should still know they exist. |
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| 16:39:56 | <spew> | Hi all, I'm reading Hutton's "Programming in Haskell" and one of the exercises is to implement a readLine :: IO String action that reads a string but allows you to delete characters. |
| 16:40:06 | <spew> | What I came up with is this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EJut3AMm |
| 16:40:27 | <spew> | but I'm wondering if there's a way to do it with some kind of monadic fold instead of using a recursive "go" helper |
| 16:47:19 | <c_wraith> | it certainly could be, but given the structure of what you're doing it wouldn't really make anything cleaner |
| 16:47:58 | <spew> | c_wraith: ty |
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| 16:58:58 | <monochrom> | It is not a fold, it is an unfold. |
| 17:01:49 | <spew> | I was trying to do something with this `takeWhile (/= '\n') <$> (sequence $ repeat getCh)` but it doesn't seem to halt at the newline |
| 17:03:10 | <monochrom> | I/O is not lazy. |
| 17:03:35 | <spew> | monochrom: ty |
| 17:03:45 | <spew> | then I thought I could map over that thing |
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| 17:06:55 | <spew> | perhaps with takeWhileM from Control.Monad.Loops? |
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| 17:15:05 | <EvanR> | :t takeWhileM |
| 17:15:06 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 17:15:06 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: takeWhileM |
| 17:15:06 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 17:15:49 | <EvanR> | Monad m => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a] |
| 17:16:16 | <EvanR> | doesn't seem like what you want |
| 17:16:42 | <EvanR> | somethingM :: Monad m => m (Maybe a) -> m [a] |
| 17:17:10 | <EvanR> | do action to get a's until it fails, return the list of a |
| 17:19:02 | <EvanR> | it's called unfoldM in monad-loops |
| 17:20:11 | <spew> | EvanR: thanks very much! I will check that out |
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| 17:23:39 | <c_wraith> | it's not an unfold, either |
| 17:23:52 | <c_wraith> | it needs to be able to edit previous results |
| 17:23:59 | <c_wraith> | unfolds can't do that |
| 17:24:36 | <c_wraith> | you can abuse an unfold to do the job, but it's not a natural fit |
| 17:24:54 | <EvanR> | you could still do it with unfoldM, by consuming multiple characters if you encounter one to be erased |
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| 17:25:35 | <EvanR> | it's not natural until something is a natural transformation! |
| 17:26:20 | <c_wraith> | what? unfoldM hard commits to output, and you don't recognize that you need to delete something but l you've already committed to it |
| 17:26:41 | <c_wraith> | *until you've committed, that is |
| 17:26:42 | <EvanR> | I don't know what with actual exercise is, I just read "allows you to delete characters" |
| 17:26:57 | <EvanR> | if you know what characters to delete it would work |
| 17:27:06 | <c_wraith> | read as "allows you to hit backspace" |
| 17:27:11 | <EvanR> | oh lol |
| 17:27:18 | <EvanR> | there be dragons |
| 17:27:23 | <EvanR> | terminal control sequences |
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| 17:27:57 | <c_wraith> | eh, it's fine to just output ASCII control codes for an exercise at this level, which is what it's doing |
| 17:28:32 | <c_wraith> | but the point is that you're out of the realm of an unfold unless you're using a reference to smuggle mutation in |
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| 17:47:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yeah no recursion scheme I looked at could modify the past (or see the future, for that matter), histomorphisms see the past, futumorphisms control the future and chronomorphisms do both, but neither is entirely suitable |
| 17:49:02 | <spew> | Bowuigi: thanks very much, thanks to everyone for taking a look |
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| 17:54:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> On a similar topic, I wonder if any total anamorphism returning a finite structure can be turned into a catamorphism. Lean does something similar using well founded recursion and converts these functions into catas over Nat, but I don't know if there's a less "proof-y" way to do this |
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| 17:56:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I'm designing a total configuration language (in a sense, similar to dhall) that's very theory-focused while trying to remain small and efficient in implementation (in a sense, similar to smalltt) |
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| 17:58:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> As I am using recursion schemes paired with heavily simplified recursive types, the less stuff I have to deal with, the better |
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| 21:21:17 | <bert96> | hi, im needing help |
| 21:21:48 | <bert96> | i am wondering if there are people that are currently using the chat, that might be able to help! |
| 21:22:16 | <Rembane> | bert96: Ask the question and we'll see! |
| 21:22:18 | <bert96> | im not too good with haskells "do" notation, presumably because even though i understand monads very well |
| 21:22:35 | <bert96> | that im not good enough to understand what im doing is what monads can do within the do notation |
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| 21:23:10 | <bert96> | heres the task. i have a kind of "language" which is supposed to be based on linear types, but we can forget that bit for now. it is a "stateful" langage |
| 21:23:23 | <bert96> | all functions are replaced with stateful opperators |
| 21:23:45 | <bert96> | they return updated versions of themselves (the linear bit is that the original must not be referenced again, like it is deleted) |
| 21:24:06 | <bert96> | so instead of having functions that return either other functions, or values |
| 21:24:46 | <bert96> | ie one input one output, there is always 2 outputs, since it gives the modified "function" (its actually a mix of a function and the first argument, so just like it has 2 "outputs" it has 2 inputs) |
| 21:24:54 | <bert96> | f s |
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| 21:25:13 | <bert96> | there is now also a "regularization" |
| 21:25:28 | <bert96> | as well as returning output, and modified state function, it gives a "loss" which is accrued |
| 21:25:31 | <monochrom> | If you are not good with "do" notation, you can always stick to >>= |
| 21:25:46 | <bert96> | do notation is great for this, as it allows the new state and output to be bound into scope easily |
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| 21:25:59 | <bert96> | however, i dont like having to also handle the regularizing double |
| 21:26:03 | <monochrom> | If you are not good with >>= either, then your claim of "I understand monads very well" is busted. |
| 21:26:07 | <bert96> | i was wondering if choice of monad could do this |
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| 21:26:37 | <bert96> | i could write something like f s i >>= \ (reg,s',o) -> ... |
| 21:26:49 | <bert96> | but the idea is that its a deep model, with many state functions |
| 21:27:14 | <bert96> | and binding the s' and o variables into scope allows the user to put them as inputs easily |
| 21:27:24 | <bert96> | however, i want all the reg :: Double, to simply be added up |
| 21:27:28 | <bert96> | and not have to handle this |
| 21:27:42 | <bert96> | can i do this with choice of some particular monadic behaviour? |
| 21:28:06 | <monochrom> | Writer (Sum Double) is a monad that can do the addition under the hood. |
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| 21:28:17 | <bert96> | awesome! |
| 21:28:49 | <bert96> | i could write a short example in a paste, so that it could be possible to see how this would translate with use of Writer (Sum Double) ? |
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| 21:34:21 | <monochrom> | % import Control.Monad.Writer ; import Data.Monoid |
| 21:34:21 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 21:34:43 | <monochrom> | % runWriter (tell (Sum 1.1) >>= \_ -> tell (Sum 2.2)) |
| 21:34:43 | <yahb2> | ((),Sum {getSum = 3.3000000000000003}) |
| 21:35:00 | <bert96> | here https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kbAbNFEZ |
| 21:35:53 | <probie> | You almost definitely want `Control.Monad.Writer.Strict` if you're working with `Sum Double` |
| 21:36:14 | <monochrom> | Oh oops yeah. |
| 21:36:19 | <monochrom> | % :quit |
| 21:36:19 | <yahb2> | <bye> |
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| 21:36:27 | <monochrom> | % import Control.Monad.Writer.Strict ; import Data.Monoid |
| 21:36:27 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 21:36:31 | <monochrom> | % runWriter (tell (Sum 1.1) >>= \_ -> tell (Sum 2.2)) |
| 21:36:31 | <yahb2> | ((),Sum {getSum = 3.3000000000000003}) |
| 21:36:34 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 21:36:57 | <monochrom> | That paste doesn't type-check. |
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| 21:37:49 | <monochrom> | Today is one of those days when I join those people who insist that if a program doesn't type-check then it has no semantics. |
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| 21:38:38 | <monochrom> | OK fine this one is just the monomorphism restriction. |
| 21:38:55 | <bert96> | its needing; go :: IO (Reg,(S1,S2),Double) |
| 21:39:32 | <bert96> | i guess i need actually to have it be Sum not IO though... |
| 21:40:42 | <monochrom> | use "type Reg = Sum Double" and have "Writer Reg" and use tell for each number. I showed an example. |
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| 21:44:11 | <bert96> | i have no idea how to do this |
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| 21:44:48 | <bert96> | what do you mean, have "Writer Reg" |
| 21:45:18 | <bert96> | IO (Writer Reg,(S1,S2),Double) does not make sense |
| 21:45:37 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 21:45:38 | <bert96> | how does it maintain the outputs and states as output? |
| 21:45:44 | <bert96> | i dont get how it typechecks? |
| 21:45:46 | <probie> | bert96: https://play.haskell.org/saved/9El1Zcec perhaps something like |
| 21:46:06 | <bert96> | thanks! |
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| 21:49:06 | <bert96> | is there a way to compse together the state functions? |
| 21:49:12 | <bert96> | compose* |
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| 21:52:06 | <bert96> | i was thinking of having a HList, but i guess if there is a binary composition function, i can just have a big nested set of pairs |
| 21:52:42 | <bert96> | maybe its best to just do it in the do scope |
| 21:52:47 | <bert96> | yeah, i think that was the idea |
| 21:53:07 | <bert96> | i guess its just sugar on the types |
| 21:53:12 | <bert96> | ill try and write up what i mean |
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| 22:02:10 | <bert96> | i cant quite get it to typecheck |
| 22:02:10 | <bert96> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/WVRzfdJ5 |
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| 22:03:48 | <bert96> | ah, its ok, i got it |
| 22:03:49 | <bert96> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/JrTnEeWi |
| 22:04:12 | <bert96> | so yeah, im still wondering about the composition semanticx |
| 22:04:32 | <bert96> | is there a way to get this looking slightly more like a DSL? |
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| 22:04:52 | <bert96> | loke, loading everything into it, processing it, and then getting it back into the form without the writer visible |
| 22:05:10 | <bert96> | i guess this basically does that, but its not like, idk. general enough? can you see what im getting at? |
| 22:05:41 | <bert96> | i guess 'go' kind of resembles a composition function |
| 22:05:52 | <bert96> | im not sure how to handle "scope" though |
| 22:06:02 | <bert96> | like, if you have this bivariate associator, thats one thing... |
| 22:06:10 | <bert96> | idk, maybe you just rewrite the go function |
| 22:06:26 | <bert96> | instead of trying to use it as a composition... i cant quite get my head round the difference |
| 22:06:45 | <bert96> | like, because then you can have as many functions as you like, and to do scoping handles all that |
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| 22:07:18 | <bert96> | but it kind of then, doesnt seem to meet the criteria of a well formulated DSL, which for some reason i think would have this bivariate composition opperator, i think is a mistaken idea |
| 22:07:59 | <bert96> | the pair, extends simply to a list, but then the list of states, for example, doesnt easily handle the internal scoping of how these are interrelated |
| 22:08:18 | <bert96> | i like how the 'do' version like this seems to handle the regularization though |
| 22:08:33 | <bert96> | its actually one of the nicest use cases for a monad other than IO that iv seen |
| 22:08:49 | <bert96> | (been coding haskell for almost decades by this point) |
| 22:10:14 | <bert96> | i guess the closest i could come up with would be replacing the tuple in 'go' with a HList, but then, since it dosent change length, it might as well just be a tuple of whatever length, and the built in syntax handles it all |
| 22:10:33 | <bert96> | can anyone see anything obvious thats missing from this, if it were to be presented as a "package" |
| 22:10:51 | <bert96> | or alternatively, just let me know that these considerations parse sensibly |
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| 22:13:19 | <bert96> | im kind of torn between, rewriting the addReg style do blocks for f and g with a common function |
| 22:13:50 | <monochrom> | If you also have state then it's "StateT ??? (Writer (Sum Double))" or "WriterT (Sum Double) (State ???)" I don't know which. |
| 22:13:52 | <bert96> | but that forces the user to put them in a specific type, and i cant tell if thats better or worse than having them have to write these addReg stanzas in |
| 22:14:25 | <bert96> | monochrom: hmm... im not sure how to use the State monads semantics here |
| 22:14:43 | <monochrom> | There are multitudes of tutorials on that. |
| 22:14:44 | <bert96> | do you think that would handle the compositionality considerations im contending with? |
| 22:15:09 | <bert96> | monochrom: right, but doing them would not result in me being able to answer that question |
| 22:15:37 | <bert96> | i have about another half hour alloted to this, ill just go with the version as is if i cant figure it out before then |
| 22:15:56 | <bert96> | id like to get it right though, so any help would really be appreciated |
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| 22:17:09 | <bert96> | probie: do you know how to do both the state and the writer bit at the same time? |
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| 22:20:10 | <bert96> | i mean, presumably it would just become more messy |
| 22:23:52 | <bert96> | ok, iv read, https://wiki.haskell.org/State_Monad |
| 22:24:04 | <bert96> | but literally, i have no idea how i would write the combination |
| 22:24:35 | <bert96> | i basically get how the bind function works, but i really have trouble translating that through to an implementation |
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| 22:28:03 | <geekosaur> | have you looked at the definition of RWST? |
| 22:28:44 | <bert96> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.0.1.0/docs/Control-Monad-RWS-Lazy.html |
| 22:28:47 | <bert96> | this? |
| 22:28:57 | <bert96> | seems like it might be basically what im trying to derive? |
| 22:29:02 | <bert96> | what do you think? |
| 22:29:21 | <bert96> | might be good to see the example rewritten in this style... |
| 22:29:41 | <bert96> | the third "reg" value seems to appear in the types of this library |
| 22:31:58 | <bert96> | wow, if i type |
| 22:31:58 | <bert96> | https://www.bing.com/search?q=%2bsimple+RWST+example+haskell&filters=rcrse%3a%221%22&FORM=RCRE |
| 22:31:59 | <bert96> | bings AI just generates the example as the top result1 |
| 22:32:18 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 22:33:57 | <bert96> | im going to see if the GPT can spoonfeed me better than the canadians |
| 22:37:34 | <bert96> | check this! https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jGhhv4hF |
| 22:37:53 | <bert96> | chatGPT ftw; https://chatgpt.com/share/12785964-4265-4ac6-b2da-51afb2a42cdd |
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| 22:42:25 | <probie> | Does that typecheck? |
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| 22:44:27 | <bert96> | idk... it seems to be messing up somehow |
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| 22:44:41 | <bert96> | im not sure if it has made `i' a phantom type by mistake |
| 22:44:56 | <bert96> | but i cant understand the RWST formalism because of how it handles the i variable anyway |
| 22:46:45 | <bert96> | yeah, i dont think it qute does it right... |
| 22:46:45 | <bert96> | https://chatgpt.com/share/12785964-4265-4ac6-b2da-51afb2a42cdd |
| 22:47:02 | <bert96> | can anyone that actually understands this get it into a form that doesnt confuse me!? |
| 22:47:17 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 22:49:06 | <bert96> | i get screenblind pretty bad ofter a nasty head injury |
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| 22:50:41 | <bert96> | gona take a break now, if theres a nice typechecking paste when i get back, i will owe you internet prompts |
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| 23:00:17 | <bert96> | damn, no code paste |
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| 23:00:49 | <bert96> | the thing i dont think i get about the state formalism as presented by the RWST monad is how it handles (or fails to handle) composite states |
| 23:00:59 | <bert96> | i think that what i was doing is different in this regard |
| 23:01:13 | <bert96> | the situtation seems to use the state repeatedly |
| 23:01:23 | <bert96> | eg, examples repeatedly incrament the state |
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| 23:01:41 | <bert96> | in my setup, many different states are composed together, and usually only modified once |
| 23:02:01 | <bert96> | for this reason, i *dont* think that what im trying to do fits into the RWST formalism |
| 23:02:08 | <bert96> | and that the suggestion is basically a misnomer |
| 23:02:33 | <bert96> | instead of the monad handling the composition of states, it handles the composition of state updates |
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| 23:02:41 | <bert96> | this is clearly not the same |
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| 23:02:54 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 23:03:09 | <bert96> | i have never thought that the state monad does anything much at all |
| 23:03:35 | <bert96> | its interesting what the GPT managed to do though in terms of refactoring though |
| 23:04:32 | <bert96> | so after all this deliberation, it seems like this is the accepted version; |
| 23:04:33 | <bert96> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/JrTnEeWi |
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| 23:05:05 | <bert96> | can anyone say anything before i go, about how this appears in terms of an interface for a stateful paradigm with regularizer? |
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| 23:06:30 | <bert96> | ok, thats me offskis then. thanks for your help this evening |
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| 23:09:57 | <monochrom> | I was suspecting that they were fishing for solutions instead of wanting to learn. The use of chatgpt proved it. |
| 23:10:40 | <monochrom> | But the first sign was when I pointed out "there are multitudes of tutorials" they were like "but that won't answer my question". |
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| 23:15:37 | <monochrom> | Also one more data point for the negative correlation between understanding and claiming "I understand". |
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| 23:28:46 | <jle`> | i have had 0 luck with chatgpt and haskell ever |
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| 23:46:58 | <probie> | Sometimes I tempted to sign up so I can see what kind of garbage ChatGPT generates |
| 23:48:20 | <probie> | s/I tempted/I'm tempted/ |
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