Logs on 2024-08-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:26 | <EvanR> | don't get histozygoprepromorphisms |
| 00:01:35 | <EvanR> | don't forget for |
| 00:02:22 | <probie> | zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms are a pillar of good software engineering |
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| 00:33:46 | <jle`> | is there any way to use -XPackageImports to qualify between two different sublibraries in the same cabal project |
| 00:33:59 | <jle`> | please dont judge me it's for a good reason |
| 00:34:20 | <jle`> | sorry i mean same cabal package |
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| 00:49:27 | <geekosaur> | I don't think ghc knows enough about cabal's concept of sublibraries. but ask in #hackage |
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| 00:49:47 | <geekosaur> | (although I think the people who woulds know are gone for the day, sadly) |
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| 00:55:50 | <dmj`> | jle`: judged |
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| 01:00:56 | <Axman6> | so judged |
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| 01:33:22 | <dmj`> | can't believe u |
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| 01:37:24 | <monochrom> | Blind guessing but maybe "pkgname:foo" instead of just "pkgname" just happens to do that. |
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| 01:47:38 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> how can I make an unfold that can discard some values? |
| 01:50:15 | <c_wraith> | like that backspace exercise someone was mentioning a couple days ago? |
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| 01:55:22 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> huh i'll try to find it |
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| 01:55:38 | <c_wraith> | well, the conclusion what "that's not an unfold", so it won't help :) |
| 01:55:48 | <c_wraith> | err, the conclusion *was* |
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| 01:57:17 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya: Discarding as not adding anything or removing previous values? |
| 01:57:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: not adding anything |
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| 01:57:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The first one is a futumorphism, the other one is not a recursion scheme AFAIK |
| 01:57:47 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah |
| 01:57:50 | <c_wraith> | Oh. Isn't "not adding anything" the default? |
| 01:57:53 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Ah great, futumorphism it is |
| 01:57:57 | <c_wraith> | Like... just run the calculation again |
| 01:58:05 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah it's a futumorphism |
| 01:58:53 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty |
| 02:00:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Np |
| 02:00:41 | <monochrom> | :( |
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| 02:01:21 | <probie> | Also, you can change your functor to allow a "not adding anything" action, and then use a catamorphism to turn it back to your desired functor (giving you a hylomorphism, so it should be "cheap") |
| 02:01:35 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 02:01:49 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> probie: will play around with this idea too, thanks! |
| 02:02:17 | <lystra> | Hi. I built ghc-9.4.8 and am now building zlib-0.7.1.0. If I have zlib.h/libz.so in a non-standard location, how do I get the build process to look in this non-standard location? |
| 02:03:36 | <monochrom> | Ideally you configure pkg-config to know and output the location, but I am being theoretical. |
| 02:04:26 | <lystra> | monochrom: Thanks. |
| 02:05:00 | <monochrom> | --extra-include-dirs and --extra-lib-dirs should help. |
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| 02:05:56 | <probie> | In the example I linked earlier, that's actually the purpose of my `WithSkip` type. `f4` is actually doing this; it skips even numbers (albeit as `cata f . ana g` instead of `hylo f g`) |
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| 02:14:35 | <lystra> | Does the use of pkg-config and --extra-include-dirs/--extra-lib-dirs assume cabal is being used for the build? |
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| 02:15:44 | <monochrom> | Yes I was assuming cabal. |
| 02:16:23 | <lystra> | We're building without cabal. Sorry I wasn't more specific. |
| 02:16:47 | <monochrom> | But if you're running Setup.hs it should also be --extra-include-dirs and --extra-lib-dirs |
| 02:18:13 | <lystra> | Looks like setting PKG_CONFIG_PATH was sufficient. Thanks! |
| 02:22:28 | <geekosaur> | iirc it's up to the package whether pkg-config is used or not, not cabal-install |
| 02:22:40 | <geekosaur> | (the Cabal library will be used either way) |
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| 02:25:47 | <mauke> | IIRC the big hammer is CPATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH |
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| 02:35:06 | <lystra> | Looks like it uses "pkg-config --libs zlib" but then only uses the -L paths in the output, not -Wl,-rpath if it is in the --libs output. Is there an easy way to add to the RUNPATH of a package? |
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| 05:56:16 | <jle`> | mauke: it doesn't work because : is an illegal character :( |
| 05:56:22 | <jle`> | oops that was for monochrom |
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| 06:17:27 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> any way to get a more detailed error on "non-exhaustive patterns in case"? e.g. what is it the input that couldn't get pattern matched? |
| 06:20:13 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya: append `e -> error (show e)` |
| 06:20:58 | <[exa]> | sadly to show anything useful of the unknown case, you need to carry there some kinda showey implementation |
| 06:21:14 | <mauke> | thirdofmay18081814goya: compile with -Wincomplete-patterns? |
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| 06:37:20 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah that worked, ty! |
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| 06:55:01 | <Axman6> | HLS should also warn you about it in your editor |
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| 07:25:45 | <Umeaboy> | Hi! I guess (not being an expert) that when someone that uses openSUSE decides to package ghc-bootstrap openSUSE has it's own way of handling external files like LICENSE and README.openSUSE. Am I right? |
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| 07:26:07 | <Umeaboy> | I can't get the %doc and %licens working in Mageia 9. |
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| 07:37:58 | <exa2> | Umeaboy: might be better to ask opensuse devs; looks very opensuse specific |
| 07:38:10 | <exa2> | Umeaboy: also what's mageia. :D |
| 07:38:18 | <Umeaboy> | exa2: Fork of Mandriva. |
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| 07:39:20 | <Franciman> | mageia is quite nice, exa2 is it the distro based on spells? |
| 07:39:22 | <Umeaboy> | First came Mandrakesoft, then Mandrake, then Mandriva, then Mandriva fired a lot of people and that's when some of the fired staff decided to fork Mandriva. |
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| 07:40:04 | <[exa]> | not sure tbh, I used mandrake once back in the very old days |
| 07:40:10 | <[exa]> | cool it still lives on |
| 07:41:34 | <Umeaboy> | Yes. |
| 07:41:50 | <Umeaboy> | We need more bug fixers though. :) |
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| 07:45:36 | <geekosaur> | doesn't everyone? |
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| 12:52:57 | <ash3en> | would it make sense to install ghcup with xbps-src on void? or the AUR respectively? |
| 12:54:01 | <geekosaur> | if you do, be aware that you can't update it from within ghcup, you would have to wait for the package to be updated |
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| 13:02:08 | <ash3en> | thanks for the advice. It feels that ghcup is rather stable and updates are not that often. + I would probably maintain the package myself |
| 13:02:15 | <ash3en> | at least in void |
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| 13:18:19 | <ash3en> | ah, I see there were already PR's but it seems they stall |
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| 13:39:29 | <ash3en> | ah and how about xmonad? seems less convenient if one wants to change their config and recompile |
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| 13:54:18 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's the technical term describing the relationship between these two types? "[a] -> [a]" ; "[Int] -> [Int]" |
| 13:55:25 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> and what's the technical term describing the relationship between "forall a. [a] -> [a]" and "[a0] -> [a0]"? |
| 13:56:34 | <zero> | > zip <*> tail $ "abcde" |
| 13:56:35 | <lambdabot> | [('a','b'),('b','c'),('c','d'),('d','e')] |
| 13:56:43 | <zero> | what if i want trigrams? |
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| 13:57:49 | <EvanR> | thirdofmay18081814goya: you specialized a polymorphic type |
| 13:58:20 | <EvanR> | the second one is the same thing just you specialized to an unknown type variable instead of a concrete type |
| 13:58:41 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah I see, thanks a lot! |
| 14:02:52 | <probie> | > zip3 <*> tail <*> tail.tail $ "abcde" |
| 14:02:53 | <lambdabot> | [('a','b','c'),('b','c','d'),('c','d','e')] |
| 14:04:47 | <probie> | > let ngrams n xs = take (length xs - n + 1) $ map (take n) $ tails xs in ngrams 3 "abcde" |
| 14:04:49 | <lambdabot> | ["abc","bcd","cde"] |
| 14:06:16 | <byorgey> | > let ngrams n xs = takeWhile ((==n).length) $ map (take n) $ tails xs in ngrams 3 "abcde" -- alternative requiring less fiddly math |
| 14:06:17 | <lambdabot> | ["abc","bcd","cde"] |
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| 14:14:11 | <probie> | byorgey: less fiddly maths, but that calls `length` on every element, which isn't cheap |
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| 14:17:04 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya: in HM descriptions the removal of "forall" is sometimes called instantiation |
| 14:17:36 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> [exa]: would we distinguish between instantiation and specialization? |
| 14:18:02 | <[exa]> | good question :D |
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| 14:19:05 | <[exa]> | usually specialization is used when you replace variables by constants, instantiation is when you replace foralled-variables by fresh variables that belong into your context |
| 14:19:21 | <[exa]> | so for your examples the first would be more like specialization, and the secon more like instantiation |
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| 14:20:17 | <[exa]> | but many sources also clearly use the wording that e.g. "Int->Int" is an instance of "a->a" etc, w.r.t. to substitution instead of explicit forall |
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| 14:21:48 | <[exa]> | I think there will be some authoritative source that draws a line between those but I don't know of any |
| 14:23:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> i see thanks a lot! |
| 14:26:24 | <EvanR> | oh yeah, instantiate good call |
| 14:27:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> when the compiler substitutes "a" for "a0", this is instantiation right? |
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| 14:28:44 | <[exa]> | well, that's substitution. Substitution creates instances of formulas (which is a normal view in symbolic logic I'd say). |
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| 14:29:36 | <[exa]> | I always saw "instantiation" as more of an "active" operation that really kills at least one selected `forall` mark in the formula. |
| 14:30:00 | <[exa]> | opinions may vary though, never got educated in these things formally :) |
| 14:34:05 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i see ty |
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| 14:34:41 | <carbolymer> | seems that list comprehensions don't work with OverloadedLists? |
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| 14:53:21 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: how come? (maybe MonadComprehensions would help there?) |
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| 14:54:32 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya also the first one is the subtyping relation between types in a polymorphic lambda calculus |
| 14:55:38 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: noted ty! |
| 14:55:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Typically A ≤ B meaning "A is less polymorphic than B" (the order might be wrong, I forgot lol) |
| 14:56:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> (≤ is also used for subtypes, of course) |
| 14:57:32 | <carbolymer> | [exa]: not much, not everything is a monad. An example: https://play.haskell.org/saved/aLA3CMPP |
| 14:57:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm, enabling explicit foralls should make them appear in "couldn't match type" errors right? |
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| 14:59:11 | <constxd> | bros |
| 14:59:18 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: yeah the question there is how would you join sets if you'd do something like [a+b | a<-[1,2,3], b<-[2,3,4]] :: S.Set int |
| 14:59:43 | <constxd> | what the heck is loop supposed to be used for (from Arrow) |
| 14:59:59 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: afaik all sane methods basically reduce down to doing it with lists again |
| 15:00:48 | <carbolymer> | [exa]: https://play.haskell.org/saved/OjLIgIg8 isn't that just boils down to removing explicit `fromList` ? |
| 15:01:08 | <carbolymer> | [exa]: without `fromList` it doesn't work |
| 15:06:24 | <[exa]> | hm yeah I see, one would expect the `IsList` to trigger there automatically |
| 15:06:40 | <carbolymer> | exactly |
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| 15:09:52 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: ok seems like you might as well be the first one ever to try this |
| 15:09:58 | <carbolymer> | lol |
| 15:12:07 | <[exa]> | constxd: from the (->) instance it seems like it lets the arrow to generate a side value (potentially infinite I'd say) and eat it at the same time |
| 15:12:15 | <[exa]> | I feel tempted to write fibs this way |
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| 15:14:37 | <[exa]> | constxd: ok let's see |
| 15:14:44 | <[exa]> | % loop f b = let (c,d) = f (b,d) in c |
| 15:14:44 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 15:15:15 | <[exa]> | % take 8 $ flip loop () $ \((), fibs) -> (fibs, 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)) |
| 15:15:15 | <yahb2> | [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13] |
| 15:16:02 | <dminuoso> | constxd: (b, d) :=> (c, d) -> b :=> c |
| 15:16:41 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes its easier to visualize arrow (and other related types) if you imagine the type variable to be like `:=>` or maybe written in infix notation (b, d) `a` (c, d) -> b `a` c |
| 15:17:25 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: tbh might be time to ask in #ghc, the "fix" seems easy unless it breaks something else very horrendously |
| 15:17:55 | <carbolymer> | [exa]: thx |
| 15:17:58 | <dminuoso> | constxd: Further note the internal haddock comment https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1001.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.Control.Arrow.html#loop |
| 15:17:58 | <carbolymer> | just did |
| 15:18:12 | <[exa]> | good luck :) |
| 15:20:07 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: kinda has prolog vibes with the `d` getting unified, like having `func(In1,In2,Out1,Out2)` and twisting it around with `func(B,D,C,D)` |
| 15:20:43 | <[exa]> | (kanren people rejoice) |
| 15:21:21 | <dminuoso> | The Kleisli instance feels a bit more interesting. |
| 15:24:37 | <[exa]> | uses of that are kinda beyond my imagination tho |
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| 16:05:21 | <EvanR> | constxd, when modeling circuits with arrows, loop creates a loop back circuit. Without that you only have combinational logic |
| 16:05:41 | <EvanR> | what is means in other applications of arrow depends |
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| 16:12:30 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> is there a hindley-milner type interpreter somewhere? define types and type variables and get resulting inference |
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| 16:15:29 | <byorgey> | thirdofmay18081814goya: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hindley-milner-type-check ? |
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| 16:19:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> byorgey: neat! thanks |
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| 16:50:37 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: I guess `loop` is sort of like half-a-fix. |
| 16:51:50 | <dminuoso> | An inverse of `second` |
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| 16:59:39 | <byorgey> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Yampa#Primitive_signal_functions |
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| 17:07:18 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> myFunc2 val [x] = if x /= val then [x] else [] |
| 17:07:18 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/HymUlGZdDMNxLouQHiwMJkfu (3 lines) |
| 17:07:46 | <geekosaur> | the start of that might have been lost, I was restarting docker for an update |
| 17:09:57 | <geekosaur> | (actually you're fine, matrix-side gets held and sent when the bot returns, it's irc that gets dropped but there wasn't any activity) |
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| 17:14:00 | <EvanR> | the internet duct tape held |
| 17:16:09 | <monochrom> | combinational logic : feedback circuit :: pure function : mutable state :) |
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| 17:16:52 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya byorgey: oh wow a nice package. Other than that, highly recommend to just smash one together in prolog, it's a 30 minute exercise with lots of edu value |
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| 17:20:13 | <monochrom> | in which 29 minutes are spent on just emulating haskell ADT by prolog function symbols. >:) |
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| 17:41:43 | <[exa]> | monochrom: educative on all fronts! |
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| 18:09:13 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm |
| 18:09:18 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> how do I evaluate types with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/compare-type-0.1.1/docs/Type-Compare.html? |
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| 18:25:54 | <tomsmeding> | what do you mean with "evaluate"? |
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| 18:27:51 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: how do I get "Compare LT LT" to produce "EQ"? |
| 18:28:28 | <tomsmeding> | is _is_ the same, i.e. if you write `Compare LT LT` in a Haskell file, then that will be the same as if you'd written `EQ` there |
| 18:28:36 | <tomsmeding> | but if you want to "see it happen": try `:k! Compare LT LT` in ghci |
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| 18:30:24 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: ah! that's it, thanks! |
| 18:31:07 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: what exactly is the difference between ":k" and ":k!"? I see it clearly, but what is it doing? |
| 18:31:55 | <tomsmeding> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/ghci.html#ghci-cmd-:kind |
| 18:32:19 | <tomsmeding> | there have been ghc versions where the ! didn't do anything; that regressed at some point and got fixed later again |
| 18:32:24 | <tomsmeding> | I believe that was before 9.0 |
| 18:34:36 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: thanks a lot! had googled variations of "ghci commands"and never found this, or found results without"!` explanation |
| 18:34:43 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * commands" and never found this, or found results without"!\" |
| 18:34:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * without"!" |
| 18:34:53 | <tomsmeding> | hint: bookmark the GHC user guide, there's lots of good info in there :) |
| 18:35:04 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> will do |
| 18:35:09 | <tomsmeding> | in particular I've also bookmarked this page specifically https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/table.html |
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| 19:04:21 | <monochrom> | I just use /usr/local/ghcup/ghc/9.4.8/share/doc/ghc-9.4.8/html/users_guide/index.html |
| 19:04:40 | <monochrom> | (I told ghcup to put itself in /usr/local instead of $HOME) |
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| 19:17:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> [exa] re:prolog I definitely recommend trying to model every type system you care about in a logic lang (Prolog, miniKanren or anything similar), not just HM. I was actually doing a tool for this (using natural deduction syntax like in papers) but I got stuck in the "interpret pure prolog-like rules but with complete search and some constraints" part. An idea was to try to adapt miniKanren with interleaving search... |
| 19:17:28 | <haskellbridge> | ... and constraints into a static setting, but no idea how to do that |
| 19:18:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The other hard part was mixfix parsing, but I got a decent grammar distilled from the "Parsing mixfix expressions" paper. Fun stuff |
| 19:18:27 | <[exa]> | mixfix is fun |
| 19:19:32 | <[exa]> | I'm normally just parsing lists of whatever properly parenthesized first, and then run a shunting-yardish algorithm over that to actually resolve operators |
| 19:20:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Parsing it without bactracking dozens of times is a challenge, that's why I modified the algo in the paper to my preffered syntax conventions |
| 19:21:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I could drop all that into megaparsec and have a natural deduction (with actually natural syntax) parser, but I still can't do the "cooler prolog" part |
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| 19:24:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Unlike with prolog, miniKanren has straightforward and easily accesible algorithms for search and constraints. Most of what I could find on prolog was either too vague or unrelated to the implementation. So now I want to know how to those miniKanren algos statically |
| 19:26:18 | <[exa]> | yeah I want to learn enough kanren once to do something like so |
| 19:26:57 | <[exa]> | in prolog all the constrainty libraries are quite macro-heavy |
| 19:28:54 | <[exa]> | (macros as in term_expansion/2) |
| 19:33:10 | <monochrom> | I should learn miniKaren too. Prolog is becoming archaic and feeling like poorly designed. |
| 19:34:23 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ghc will throw an ambiguous variable error iff ":k! expression" has no normal form right? |
| 19:34:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> * implies |
| 19:35:10 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh i mean |
| 19:35:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> if ghc throws an ambiguous variable error then will follow that ":k! expression" has no normal form right? |
| 19:36:08 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh, "then it follows that ":k! expression" has not been resolved to a normal form..? |
| 19:36:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what am I even saying |
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| 19:38:13 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> : with respect to the annotation rules of the haskell type system, what rule produces the ambiguous type error? |
| 19:39:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> AFAIK when no rule allows GHC to instance a type variable when trying to evaluate an expression |
| 19:40:08 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So it isn't a rule what triggers this, but rather the lack of them |
| 19:40:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> No wait that was when solving constraints |
| 19:41:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It still about type variables though |
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| 19:41:59 | <geekosaur> | I think you were right the first time. Constraints come into it as the primary means of instancing otherwise-unknown type variables |
| 19:42:07 | <geekosaur> | aiui |
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| 19:44:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Why does "Nothing :: Maybe a" not toggle it but "empty :: Collection ce e -> ce" does (assuming Collection is a type class without fundeps representing, well, collections)? |
| 19:45:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Is it because it can't know what to execute until "e" is instanced? |
| 19:45:34 | <geekosaur> | I think so |
| 19:46:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> So the ambiguous variable error in kinds has a similar origin |
| 19:46:29 | <monochrom> | Monomorphism restriction disallows "var = expr" to have a type-class-polymorphic type. |
| 19:46:30 | <geekosaur> | also, under what circumstances? I think ghci has extended typing rules that allow Nothing and [] to be typed, but won't work for something like Collection? |
| 19:46:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The trick here is probably defaulting |
| 19:47:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Specially if there isn't an instance for "Collection [something] ()" |
| 19:47:46 | <geekosaur> | (ExtendedDefaultRules, which you can turn on for compiled programs but is disrecommended there) |
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| 19:49:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> If normal form evaluation doesn't halt at the type level in any language you either get a "max recursion depth exceeded" (like with type classes) or compilation never fails to terminate. Not sure which one does GHC but it likely is one of those |
| 19:58:51 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya: iirc ambiguity errors were normally triggered when a forall binds an unused variable, e.g. `show . read :: (Read a, Show a) => String -> String`. (Normally that would get defaulted to ().) |
| 20:00:41 | <[exa]> | (in your previous examples, `Nothing :: forall a. Maybe a` is perfectly okay, but the other thing lacks the knowledge of `e` |
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| 20:13:27 | <tomsmeding> | Bowugi: thirdofmay: type class constraints can result in ambiguity errors because a type class constraint is an _implicit argument_: if you have a function `foo :: Collection ce e => ce`, then that `Collection ce e` part is an _argument_ of foo |
| 20:13:47 | <tomsmeding> | but it's not an argument that you supply: GHC infers what the argument should be, and supplies it for you |
| 20:13:57 | <tomsmeding> | but that means that GHC must be able to figure out what it should pass! |
| 20:15:18 | <tomsmeding> | and that means that the type variables must be instantiated _enough_ that precisely one instance matches; when that is so, GHC knows it should take that instance dictionary (a record containing the definitions of the class methods in that instance) and pass it for you |
| 20:16:40 | <tomsmeding> | well, either that, or there must be some other place for GHC to get that implicit argument from; if that `foo` was called inside some other function (say `bar`) that itself has a constraint, then GHC can use the implicit argument of `bar` to pass as the implicit argument to `foo` |
| 20:16:52 | <tomsmeding> | this is a very operational way of seeing things, but I find it helpful |
| 20:17:38 | <EvanR> | this story makes typeclass constraints sound like implicit parameters |
| 20:17:58 | <EvanR> | meanwhile there's another feature which is literally called implicit parameters, and I'm wondering what the difference is |
| 20:18:17 | <[exa]> | EvanR: wasn't there a library that actually implemented this |
| 20:18:25 | <[exa]> | I'd say acme-something |
| 20:18:58 | <geekosaur> | EvanR, not much aiui |
| 20:19:11 | <geekosaur> | they even use constraint syntax |
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| 20:22:35 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: -XImplicitParams implicit parameters you can override manually |
| 20:22:39 | <dmj`> | Bowuigi: are you working on implementing LSS in Haskell |
| 20:22:45 | <tomsmeding> | you can't provide a local overriding instance |
| 20:22:55 | <tomsmeding> | (well, you can with `withDict`, but that's black magic) |
| 20:23:14 | <tomsmeding> | hence, conversely, type classes give you confluence whereas implicit parameters don't |
| 20:23:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> dmj` not yet, I have to actually make a lang before that lol |
| 20:24:09 | <dmj`> | Bowuigi: you can start bottom up, why not |
| 20:25:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Because I want the lang itself rather than the optimization |
| 20:25:51 | <dmj`> | well you'll need both eventually, plus the elaboration will take 100% of the time |
| 20:26:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Roc implements both LSS and Perceus if you want to see it in action ASAP. Not Haskell but close enough |
| 20:26:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Koka and Lean both implement Perceus but not LSS. Morphic implements both |
| 20:27:17 | <dmj`> | Bowuigi: I think Roc wants to use it, but doesn't, https://github.com/roc-lang/roc/issues/5969 |
| 20:27:27 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> thanks a lot for all the comments! very helpful stuff |
| 20:27:40 | <dmj`> | I don't think those languages have package managers either |
| 20:27:50 | <dmj`> | maybe Lean does |
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| 20:29:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> dmj` Roc doesn't have it at the type level, but it is present at the value level (it's on the main page as well) |
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| 20:32:45 | <dmj`> | hmm, unless you're accumulating the lambda sets as part of the type system, I don't think you have it |
| 20:33:53 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Also Lean has lake (a package manager) IIRC |
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| 20:38:02 | <dmj`> | Bowuigi: does Lean allow for cyclic data structures? I think this ref. counting technique requires the heap to be a DAG. Or something fancy is going on |
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| 21:12:58 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> do people use something else than a small anonymous function for this? "(\x f -> f x) val lambdaCaseExpression"? |
| 21:13:15 | <tomsmeding> | :t (&) |
| 21:13:16 | <lambdabot> | a -> (a -> b) -> b |
| 21:13:20 | <tomsmeding> | (Data.Function) |
| 21:13:51 | <tomsmeding> | but I tend to just 'case val of' ;) |
| 21:17:06 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> neato ty! |
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| 21:17:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: might have multiple arguments hehe |
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| 21:17:48 | <mauke> | :t flip id |
| 21:17:49 | <lambdabot> | b -> (b -> c) -> c |
| 21:18:05 | <tomsmeding> | ($) = id |
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| 21:19:11 | <mauke> | :t [id, ($), ask, asks] |
| 21:19:12 | <lambdabot> | [(a -> b) -> a -> b] |
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| 21:22:43 | <tomsmeding> | :t ask `fmap` id |
| 21:22:44 | <lambdabot> | b -> b |
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| 22:04:08 | <dmj`> | Bowuigi: I bet lambda sets could be added to Haskell syntax, then you could just desugar into a first order language |
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| 22:09:23 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> can I check whether a type is a subtype of another in the repl? |
| 22:09:59 | <geekosaur> | last I checked Haskell didn't have subtypes |
| 22:10:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: isn't "Functor f => f Int" a subtype of "Maybe Int"? |
| 22:10:59 | <davean> | No but it does unify. |
| 22:11:08 | <geekosaur> | type theoretically, but Haskell is not type theory |
| 22:12:02 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> davean: is there a way to check whether two types unify? |
| 22:12:26 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: hm right |
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| 22:17:27 | <davean> | thirdofmay18081814goya: Thats exactly what type checking is. |
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| 22:25:36 | <EvanR> | can you construct a Functor f => f Int ? |
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| 22:38:17 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> we can get something like that by using |
| 22:38:17 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_matrix/media/v3/download/kf8nh.com/syRpstTSDKPDUYCofoigqgqd (3 lines) |
| 22:38:51 | <EvanR> | well that is something else |
| 22:39:04 | <EvanR> | there you are hypothesizing it exists |
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| 22:39:19 | <EvanR> | if someone gives it to you what could be done with it |
| 22:39:33 | <EvanR> | but doesn't address how to really create it |
| 22:39:43 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> right I'm stating it exists and the compiler should tell me whether I've stated a contradiction |
| 22:39:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> on the type-level |
| 22:39:56 | <EvanR> | no... |
| 22:40:12 | <EvanR> | hypothetical arguments are valid |
| 22:40:34 | <EvanR> | e.g. id :: Void -> Void, not an error |
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| 22:42:36 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> whoops I meant |
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| 22:43:34 | <EvanR> | that's the same thing |
| 22:43:42 | <EvanR> | equivalent |
| 22:43:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> no this one actually typechecks |
| 22:44:27 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> the other one was "haskell f :: forall f. (Functor f => f Int -> Maybe Int)" |
| 22:44:59 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 22:45:27 | <EvanR> | ok within the context, unknown f can't be proved equal to Maybe |
| 22:48:12 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> am a bit puzzled about their relationship however, the one with "f :: (forall f. Functor f => f Int) -> Maybe Int" does have the desired behaviour of telling us when the types unify but I don't understand why. I do understand that "f :: forall f. (Functor f => f Int -> Maybe Int)" with "f = id" is saying that ALL functors taking "Int" unify with "Maybe Int", which is false and doesn't typecheck |
| 22:49:19 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> whoops meant to use different symbols for the function and the functor |
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| 22:50:31 | <ncf> | id :: A → B iff you can implicitly coerce an A into a B iff A is a subtype of B. not rocket science |
| 22:50:53 | <EvanR> | the first one uses higher order polymorphism |
| 22:51:08 | <ncf> | well A and B stand for polytypes here |
| 22:53:41 | <EvanR> | anyway my intuition says you can't possibly create a forall f . Functor f => f Int |
| 22:53:42 | <EvanR> | xD |
| 22:54:21 | <dolio> | Pick f = Const Void |
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| 22:55:03 | <ncf> | the first-order one tells you that, in context (f : Type, Functor f), f Int is not a subtype of Maybe Int |
| 22:56:39 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: which one is the first-order one? |
| 22:56:53 | <ncf> | the one that's not higher-order |
| 22:57:11 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: why does "[Int]" fail? |
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| 22:59:38 | <EvanR> | that's either not a value or is a string |
| 23:00:30 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: need a couple of keywords to read up on this, is the technical term "first-order polymorphism" vs "higher-order polymorphism"? |
| 23:00:52 | <ncf> | higher-rank is more common |
| 23:00:57 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: ah right I understand what you meant now |
| 23:03:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ncf: ok i see thanks! and we say "(forall f. Functor f => f Int) -> Maybe Int" uses higher-rank polymorphism while "forall f. (Functor f => f Int -> Maybe Int)" involves a rank 1 type instead? |
| 23:04:30 | <ncf> | yes |
| 23:04:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> great thanks a lot! |
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| 23:21:55 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm any good references on rank 1 types and higher-rank polymorphism? books covering these maybe |
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| 23:29:21 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tapl i think |
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| 23:30:13 | <glguy> | are you wanting to know what it is or how to implement it? |
| 23:30:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> glguy: what it is and why it produces different results wrt the typechecker |
| 23:31:50 | <glguy> | have you already seen this? https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/rank_polymorphism.html#arbitrary-rank-polymorphism |
| 23:32:26 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> glguy: no! will be reading this, thanks a lot |
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