Logs on 2024-09-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:59:06 | <probie> | > let inf = 1000**1000 in let nan = sqrt (-1) in [0 `min` inf, nan `min` inf, 0 `min` nan] |
| 00:59:07 | <lambdabot> | [0.0,Infinity,NaN] |
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| 01:23:20 | <monochrom> | Interesting. :) |
| 01:26:03 | <int-e> | > 1/0 |
| 01:26:05 | <lambdabot> | Infinity |
| 01:26:13 | <int-e> | > 0/0 |
| 01:26:14 | <lambdabot> | NaN |
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| 01:40:04 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 01:41:29 | <probie> | Or for something more terrifying |
| 01:41:32 | <probie> | > M.fromList [(0/0,"foo"),(0/0,"bar")] |
| 01:41:33 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(NaN,"foo"),(NaN,"bar")] |
| 01:42:05 | <probie> | > M.fromList [(0.0, "foo"), (0.0, "bar")] |
| 01:42:07 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(0.0,"bar")] |
| 01:42:36 | <dolio> | > let nan = 0/0 ; inf = 1/0 in (nan `min` inf, inf `min` nan) |
| 01:42:38 | <lambdabot> | (Infinity,NaN) |
| 01:42:42 | <geekosaur> | > M.fromList [(0.0, "foo"), (-0.0, "bar")] |
| 01:42:44 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(-0.0,"bar")] |
| 01:42:59 | <probie> | At least positive 0 is equal to negative 0 |
| 01:43:25 | <int-e> | > 42 `S.member` S.fromList [42,0/0,0/0] |
| 01:43:27 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 01:44:22 | <probie> | I do wish there was a distinction in base between an expected lawful `Ord` instance, and a _required_ lawful `Ord` instance |
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| 01:51:22 | <dolio> | It could be switched to the total ordering relation, I guess. But then -0.0 < 0.0. |
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| 03:33:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Oh no, I'm late for the IEEE 754 weirdness session |
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| 03:34:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> https://posithub.org/ this seems to be another take on its ideas |
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| 07:35:49 | <yin> | wait. why is 42 not a member of the Set? |
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| 07:38:04 | <yin> | oh no, does the search follow the wrong branch? |
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| 07:38:51 | <yin> | > S.member 42 $ S.fromList [0/0,0/0,42] |
| 07:38:52 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 07:38:59 | <yin> | > S.member 42 $ S.fromList [0/0,42,0/0] |
| 07:39:01 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 07:39:10 | <yin> | > S.member 42 $ S.fromList [42,0/0,0/0] |
| 07:39:11 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 07:39:18 | <yin> | yikes |
| 07:39:25 | <probie> | > 42 < 0/0 |
| 07:39:27 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 07:39:35 | <probie> | > 0/0 < 42 |
| 07:39:36 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 07:39:45 | <probie> | > 0/0 < 0/0 |
| 07:39:47 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 07:40:55 | <yin> | > 0/0 < 42 |
| 07:40:56 | <lambdabot> | False |
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| 07:41:22 | <yin> | so it is the search following the wrong branch |
| 07:41:32 | <yin> | how is Set represented internally? |
| 07:44:15 | <yin> | size balanced binary |
| 07:44:19 | <yin> | apparently |
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| 07:48:47 | <yin> | i hold the controversial opinion that programming languages should not try to emulate "numbers" but rather make their (and any type) binary representation as transparent as possible |
| 07:50:10 | <yin> | division should not be this magical operation on bits that lives behind a implementation dependent curtain |
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| 07:53:36 | <yin> | floats should be an obscure package hidden away from the spotlight |
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| 07:56:05 | <yin> | but i also think defaulting to base 10 representation is annoying so maybe i just need to chill |
| 07:57:10 | <yin> | obligatory "i use base 10" joke |
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| 12:16:42 | <dminuoso> | yin: Im not sure whether this is useful. Standards like IEEE 754 exist so mathematical operations behave predictable across differnet CPUs. |
| 12:16:55 | <dminuoso> | Or some approximation to mathematical operations. |
| 12:17:22 | <dminuoso> | And I guess in some sense IEEE 754 is fully transparent with respect to binary representation, since the binary representation is standardized. |
| 12:18:09 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: you were right. I think I've invented a simplification (?) of the shunting yard algorithm |
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| 12:18:50 | <mauke> | only I don't need a full operand stack because there's only ever 0 or 1 pending operands; the rest are already associated with their corresponding operators (on the operator stack) |
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| 12:51:05 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: interesting |
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| 12:53:13 | ski | was at one point thinking about doing operator precedence parsing, with delimited continuations |
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| 13:04:34 | <[exa]> | btw anyone here uses yi? i just kinda tried and it seems surprisingly good so far |
| 13:04:59 | <[exa]> | (yi the editor) |
| 13:06:58 | <JuanDaugherty> | it's still maintained? |
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| 13:08:07 | <JuanDaugherty> | a lil bit apparently |
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| 13:14:09 | <[exa]> | not sure if it's maintained but it seems to just work™ |
| 13:14:25 | <Leary> | I tried yi a few years back and it was pretty usable, but it didn't support everything that vim does for me out of the box. Trying to extend it to do so led me to the conclusion that it's not well architected, but perhaps someone with time on their hands could resolve that in refactoring. |
| 13:14:46 | <[exa]> | for sure looks like a cool base to do editors |
| 13:15:20 | <JuanDaugherty> | it's a holdover from the leksah era at the ignorant masses level of conceptualization |
| 13:16:43 | <JuanDaugherty> | if ignorant hs masses isn an oxymoron |
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| 13:20:07 | <mauke> | looking at https://www.engr.mun.ca/~theo/Misc/exp_parsing.htm#shunting_yard, it is not immediately obvious that the first operand (x) always ends up as the left child of the first operator (* or +, respectively) |
| 13:20:41 | <mauke> | but it is true regardless of what other operators follow, so you can always associate x with the first operator immediately |
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| 13:22:17 | <[exa]> | JuanDaugherty: I love that ignorant mass |
| 13:22:20 | <mauke> | similarly, if the second operator has higher precedence than the first (x + y * z), you end up with a stack of [(y *), (x +)] |
| 13:23:10 | <mauke> | otherwise (x * y + z), the whole tree constructed so far becomes the left operand of the second operator: [((x * y) +)] |
| 13:23:32 | <JuanDaugherty> | [exa], it does appear to be compiling after the usual fumbles |
| 13:24:36 | <JuanDaugherty> | but didn |
| 13:24:57 | <[exa]> | I just took it from debian repos |
| 13:24:59 | <[exa]> | lol |
| 13:25:11 | <JuanDaugherty> | lol |
| 13:25:31 | <[exa]> | from there I kinda inferred it's VERY STABLE |
| 13:26:01 | <JuanDaugherty> | didn i say 'a lil bit'? |
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| 13:26:58 | <[exa]> | mauke: the "x is left child of 1st operator" seems okay to me because there's literally no other operator that could pop it |
| 13:27:44 | <[exa]> | (btw no idea why everyone does two stacks in the explanations, it's plain confusing) |
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| 15:06:02 | <fr33domlover> | "WARNING: weak pointers to ordinary non-primitive Haskell types are particularly fragile, because the compiler is free to optimise away or duplicate the underlying data structure" |
| 15:06:02 | <fr33domlover> | So can I (but should I?) use an `Int#` as te key to a `Weak`? I never used these primite with-hash-suffix types, is there any example? Or is it better to use Weak with an IORef as the docs suggest? |
| 15:06:28 | <fr33domlover> | *primitive |
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| 16:06:56 | <tomsmeding> | fr33domlover: you can't even use an `Int#` as the key to a `Weak`; `k` must be a lifted type |
| 16:07:27 | <tomsmeding> | (lifted + boxed, to be more precise) |
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| 16:07:51 | <tomsmeding> | lifted means that it has an undefined value: Int is lifted because `undefined :: Int` is a thing |
| 16:08:01 | <tomsmeding> | undefined :: Int# is not something you can create |
| 16:08:13 | <tomsmeding> | (this is why unlifted values feel "strict") |
| 16:08:29 | <tomsmeding> | boxed means that it is represented by a pointer on the heap, instead of the actual value |
| 16:08:40 | <fr33domlover> | tomsmeding: So which types are allowed? Which types are primitive but lifted and boxed? |
| 16:08:44 | <tomsmeding> | an Int# is unboxed unlifted, meaning that it's an actual 8-byte thing directly |
| 16:09:09 | <tomsmeding> | Int is boxed lifted, so it's a pointer (which may point to a bottom value) to something else (an Int#) |
| 16:09:10 | <int-e> | fr33domlover: ByteArray# is one of those |
| 16:09:33 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: ByteArray# is unlifted |
| 16:09:39 | <int-e> | but boxed |
| 16:09:44 | <tomsmeding> | indeed |
| 16:13:08 | <tomsmeding> | the kind of the `k` type parameter to mkWeak is Type |
| 16:13:14 | <tomsmeding> | can't pass a ByteArray# in there |
| 16:15:28 | <int-e> | :t GHC.Internal.mkWeak# |
| 16:15:30 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:15:30 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: ‘GHC.Internal.mkWeak#’ |
| 16:15:30 | <lambdabot> | No module named ‘GHC.Internal’ is imported. |
| 16:15:42 | <int-e> | :t GHC.Base.mkWeak# |
| 16:15:43 | <lambdabot> | a -> b -> (GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld -> (# GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld, c #)) -> GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld -> (# GHC.Prim.State# RealWorld, GHC.Prim.Weak# b #) |
| 16:16:07 | <int-e> | that type lies; a and b are levity polymorphic |
| 16:16:32 | <tomsmeding> | % :t GHC.Base.mkWeak# |
| 16:16:32 | <yahb2> | GHC.Base.mkWeak# ; :: forall {l :: GHC.Types.Levity} {k :: GHC.Types.Levity} ; (a :: TYPE ('GHC.Types.BoxedRep l)) ; (b :: TYPE ('GHC.Types.BoxedRep k)) c. ; a ; ... |
| 16:16:39 | <tomsmeding> | (I set some flags in yahb2) |
| 16:17:07 | <tomsmeding> | but it would make no sense if there's no sensible way to use mkWeak -- why would it exist then? |
| 16:17:07 | <geekosaur> | was just about to do that |
| 16:17:07 | <int-e> | I found a use in the library with MutVar# s a and stopped looking. |
| 16:17:22 | <int-e> | boxed unlifted objects work |
| 16:17:29 | <tomsmeding> | with mkWeak# |
| 16:17:34 | <tomsmeding> | but surely mkWeak exists for a reason? |
| 16:17:37 | <int-e> | oh |
| 16:17:57 | <int-e> | @hoogle mkWeak |
| 16:17:57 | <lambdabot> | System.Mem.Weak mkWeak :: k -> v -> Maybe (IO ()) -> IO (Weak v) |
| 16:17:57 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Weak mkWeak :: k -> v -> Maybe (IO ()) -> IO (Weak v) |
| 16:17:57 | <lambdabot> | Control.Concurrent mkWeakThreadId :: ThreadId -> IO (Weak ThreadId) |
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| 16:19:30 | <tomsmeding> | the haddocks for Weak essentially say "don't use mkWeak"? |
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| 16:19:56 | <tomsmeding> | well, it says "don't set a finalizer with mkWeak" |
| 16:20:06 | <int-e> | I think the fat WARNING in the docs basically says that that function is not fit for use. |
| 16:20:06 | <tomsmeding> | (then why does mkWeak take an optional finalizer?) |
| 16:20:14 | <tomsmeding> | but then why does it exist??? |
| 16:20:21 | <int-e> | But it could make that fact way clearer. |
| 16:20:37 | <tomsmeding> | accursedUnutterablePerformIO should not be used in general, but there are legitimate use cases (if you're a GHC hacker) |
| 16:20:40 | <int-e> | I can't answer that; I'd speculate that there are historical reasons. |
| 16:20:43 | <fr33domlover> | I guess I'll just use mkWeakIORef unless there are other nice options |
| 16:20:49 | <tomsmeding> | fr33domlover: that sounds like the correct approach |
| 16:21:31 | <int-e> | As in... I imagine people learned the hard way that mkWeak can't be used. But never removed it somehow. Maybe there's a ticket for that? :) |
| 16:22:44 | <geekosaur> | at the end of the warning there's an observation about memo tables and such, maybe that's why it's kept? |
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| 16:23:51 | <int-e> | geekosaur: hmm, plausible |
| 16:24:02 | <tomsmeding> | found something, but not quite the issue we want yet https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/6130 |
| 16:25:14 | <tomsmeding> | ah https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/7250 |
| 16:25:59 | <tomsmeding> | and here is the warning https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/39b9f94a73895dd0f90dd4e12f78e3052b548de1 |
| 16:26:46 | <geekosaur> | the other thing that comes to mind is mkWeakThreadId |
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| 16:40:23 | <glguy> | Perhaps mkWeak is for making a weak reference to a thing that already has a finalizer |
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| 17:47:58 | <dminuoso> | 16:20:37 tomsmeding │ accursedUnutterablePerformIO should not be used in general, but there are legitimate use cases (if you're a GHC hacker) |
| 17:48:18 | <dminuoso> | I thought the primary use case for accursedUnutterablePerformIO was actually libraries like `text` |
| 17:48:40 | <dminuoso> | Oh no, bytestring. |
| 17:48:42 | <tomsmeding> | which is written by? ;) |
| 17:48:58 | <dminuoso> | Good question, let me git blame chase that. |
| 17:49:29 | <tomsmeding> | :p maybe they aren't quite active GHC hackers, but slightly less pithily, my point was that it's folly to try to use it unless you know very well what GHC will do with it |
| 17:49:53 | <tomsmeding> | so its documentation is plastered with warnings, rightfully, but there's still a reason for the function to exist |
| 17:50:23 | <tomsmeding> | now geekosaur made a good point that the documentation for mkWeak actually mentions a possible use case, so there is a reason for the function to exist |
| 17:50:36 | <tomsmeding> | but it seemed for a bit (to me) that there wasn't |
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| 17:52:39 | <dminuoso> | Introduced by commit 703b1210b8a77009de593c2ab2ae2ac57f9f9636 |
| 17:52:45 | <dminuoso> | Author: Don Stewart <dons@cse.unsw.edu.au> |
| 17:53:02 | <dminuoso> | Who I dont think was involved in GHC |
| 17:53:19 | <tomsmeding> | but also not quite a nobody |
| 17:53:19 | <dminuoso> | Oh he did hack a bit on GHC actually. |
| 17:53:37 | <tomsmeding> | okay my claim was maybe a bit strong :) |
| 17:53:40 | <dminuoso> | He's responsible for some of GHC stream fusion. |
| 17:54:10 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Oh no worries, this just turned into some quest of curiosity - not to prove you wrong. |
| 17:54:51 | <dminuoso> | The git commit however suggests that perhaps Simon Marlow was involved in the idea, or perhaps even wrote it - unclear. |
| 17:56:00 | <tomsmeding> | "courtesy Simon M" is definitely suggestive |
| 17:56:01 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 17:56:16 | <dminuoso> | +-- Just like inlinePerformIO, but we inline it. |
| 17:56:41 | <tomsmeding> | which is a comment above... inlinePerformIO |
| 17:56:45 | <dminuoso> | It's quite curious how its dangerous consequences were not obvious back then, or perhaps GHC wasn't as aggressive in let floating bacl then |
| 17:56:49 | <tomsmeding> | feels recursive |
| 17:57:03 | <tomsmeding> | definitely |
| 17:57:13 | <dminuoso> | I think that's just a typo, probably meant to read `unsafePerformIO` |
| 17:57:24 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 17:58:49 | <dminuoso> | Actually no, that's not let-float (which is the opposite direction, should not cause faulty code) |
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| 18:03:12 | <monochrom> | I think the causality is the other way round. Dons wanted to make bytestring faster, so he helped with the yak shaving of adding stream fusion. |
| 18:03:31 | <monochrom> | bytestring and/or text. |
| 18:04:21 | <int-e> | It was named `inlinePerformIO` then :-) |
| 18:04:33 | <int-e> | And then the bugs piled up. |
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| 18:04:55 | <int-e> | (good times) |
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| 18:05:43 | <int-e> | (ah the name was mentioned already, of course) |
| 18:06:50 | <monochrom> | theUnsafePerformIOWhoMustNotBeNamed >:) |
| 18:07:11 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like it's a person ;) |
| 18:07:17 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, maybe it is |
| 18:08:33 | <int-e> | dminuoso: "it's quite curious" -- IIRC it only broke if the compiler could actually see two bytestring allocations of the same size... which easily happens when you have a lot of them, but not so easily in small test cases |
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| 20:33:08 | <biberao> | hi |
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| 20:54:01 | <geekosaur> | int-e, not quite: it saw two assignments to "the same place" inside a loop, but inlinePerformIO removes the barrier that keeps such things from being hoisted out of the loop |
| 20:55:02 | <geekosaur> | allocate-and-store, that is, so it hoisted the allocate and stored it multiple times |
| 20:55:21 | <int-e> | yes and that only happens if the allocations have the same size |
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| 20:55:37 | <int-e> | as seen by the compiler; since the allocation size is an argument for the allocation function |
| 20:57:54 | <int-e> | (I didn't try to explain the bug; I tried to explain why it made it into a release of bytestring without anyone noticing) |
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| 21:29:20 | <dmj`> | monochrom: VoldemortIO |
| 21:30:09 | <dmj`> | accIO lumos |
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| 21:58:42 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 22:30:25 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what is the terminal counterpart of the empty type? |
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| 22:32:19 | <monochrom> | The unit type, (). |
| 22:33:19 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah nice, ty! |
| 22:34:36 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> is there a type T that satisfies: for all x, x subtypes T? |
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| 22:49:13 | <monochrom> | Although there is no subtyping in Haskell, if you retreat this record type {x::Int, y::String} as a subtype of this other record type {x::Int}, then extrapolating to the extreme, the universal supertype is the 0-tuple, i.e., unit again. |
| 22:54:31 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i see, ty! |
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