Logs on 2024-09-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:27:34 | <hololeap> | I seem to remember a hierarchy of parsers that roughly correlates to parsing that can be done exclusively with Applicative vs parsing that requires Monad. does anyone know what I'm thinking of? |
| 00:31:05 | <hololeap> | I think it was the chomsky hierarchy |
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| 00:35:31 | <jackdk> | IIRC laziness means that applicative parsers can do a bit more than parse CFGs but I don't recall the details |
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| 01:15:38 | <albet70> | break can break the for loop in python, is there something can break in fmap or filter? |
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| 01:27:39 | <probie> | <bad joke>just call `error` and thiings will break</bad joke> |
| 01:27:43 | <probie> | What does it mean to `break` in a functional language? |
| 01:30:28 | <weary-traveler> | albet70: something like takeWhile ? |
| 01:30:31 | <weary-traveler> | > takeWhile even [0,2,4,5,6,8,10] |
| 01:30:33 | <lambdabot> | [0,2,4] |
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| 01:31:55 | <albet70> | lets assum filter on a list, filter (> 0) [1..22] when the matching item is above five, stop filter the rest, return immediatly |
| 01:32:09 | <athan> | albet70 this is usually done with a fold rather than a uniform mapping or something that's guarateed to affect all cases. If you're "looking" for something, maybe `findIndex` would work. But if you're trying to "do something to everything until a condition is met", I'd reduce the list to something that represents the data you want to manage, then apply your map or what have you. |
| 01:32:45 | <athan> | I forgot about takeWhile, that's a better choice |
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| 01:35:23 | <probie> | % (`runContT` pure) $ callCC $ \break -> forM_ [1..100] $ \i -> do { when (even i) $ lift $ print i; when (i == 42) $ break() } |
| 01:35:23 | <yahb2> | 2 ; 4 ; 6 ; 8 ; 10 ; 12 ; 14 ; 16 ; 18 ; 20 ; 22 ; 24 ; 26 ; 28 ; 30 ; 32 ; 34 ; 36 ; 38 ; 40 ; 42 |
| 01:36:06 | <geekosaur> | rip your sanity |
| 01:36:13 | <weary-traveler> | heh |
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| 01:37:06 | <albet70> | athan , reduce the list to something is already filter |
| 01:40:42 | <geekosaur> | you can do it in multiple steps, you know. if you `takeWhile whatever (fmap …)` the fmap will stop automatically when takeWhile does |
| 01:40:51 | <geekosaur> | (lists are lazy) |
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| 01:42:14 | <weary-traveler> | yeah, perhaps the lack of explicitly mentioning laziness was the missing piece |
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| 02:09:24 | <geekosaur> | also, the actual data structure matters a lot here: lists are inherently lazy, Sets and Maps are inherently spine and key strict (Maps can be value-lazy though) |
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| 02:19:37 | <geekosaur> | > takeWhile (<5) (map (+1) [2,1,4,undefined]) |
| 02:19:39 | <lambdabot> | [3,2] |
| 02:20:36 | <geekosaur> | the `undefined` is never reached because `takeWhile` stops demanding values from the list when `map` produces a 5 |
| 02:21:30 | <geekosaur> | so you generally don't need to explicitly "break" out of a loop, you can let laziness do it for you |
| 02:21:52 | <geekosaur> | > [1..] |
| 02:21:54 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,... |
| 02:22:42 | <geekosaur> | this is the same thing, lambdabot uses a `takeWhile` to limit the output size, so only 28 values are demanded from the technically-"infinite" [1..] |
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| 05:19:25 | <Axman6> | :t callCC |
| 05:19:26 | <lambdabot> | MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a |
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| 05:31:31 | <Leary> | monochrom, thirdofmay18081814goya: Polymorphism induces a subtyping relation. This gives us the universal subtype `forall a. a`. With `exists` we'd also have a universal supertype `exists a. a`. It follows immediately that these are initial and terminal objects (respectively), which are "essentially unique" and hence cannot meaningfully differ from `Void` and `()` (respectively). |
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| 06:09:17 | <Leary> | Addendum: I guess true universality requires impredicativity, but whatever, close enough. |
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| 07:04:40 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: isn't haskell impredicative? |
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| 07:12:06 | <Leary> | I meant impredicativity of quantification (quantifying over quantified types). So only if you include ImpredicativeTypes in your definition of "modern GHC Haskell". |
| 07:12:20 | <tomsmeding> | oh, right :p |
| 07:12:25 | <tomsmeding> | I had a brainfart |
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| 13:34:22 | <slack1256> | Hey all, I have a haskell program compiled with ghc that has the RTS making syscalls for it. I do want to run this for openbsd and use the unveil and pledge syscalls. Given the RTS is complex, is it possible to use those syscalls to restrict it? Or in practice the RTS uses everything from the system? |
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| 16:54:47 | <dmj`> | is neohaskell a thing still, or was that just a blog post |
| 16:57:35 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, I feel that my Haskell knowledge is not enough for what I'm doing, any suggestion on how to improve it ? |
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| 16:58:56 | <ncf> | learn what you don't know |
| 16:58:59 | <ncf> | HTH |
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| 16:59:16 | <dmj`> | lxsameer: did you go through the typeclassopedia |
| 16:59:38 | <lxsameer> | nope |
| 16:59:48 | <monochrom> | neohaskell looks like a one-person project now, so expect slower progress than even Knuth's TAOCP volume 4. >:) |
| 16:59:54 | <lxsameer> | wow that's nice |
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| 17:00:25 | <lxsameer> | monochrom: what do you mean exactly |
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| 17:00:42 | <monochrom> | I mean what I wrote, exactly. |
| 17:01:36 | <lxsameer> | ahh sorry, it wasn't for me |
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| 17:05:22 | <dmj`> | monochrom: yea we need a microhs that just does hindley milner + typeclasses, no system F |
| 17:06:14 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 17:06:27 | <monochrom> | I like System F. :) |
| 17:07:39 | <monochrom> | But Hindley-Milner + type classes would be simply Haskell 2010. I don't want to frame that as micro. Instead, it's GHC that's gigantic. |
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| 17:10:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> lxsameer: read code, eg of projects like what you're doing |
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| 17:10:22 | <monochrom> | I like System F (and Yoneda lemma) because they are a great source of homework/exam questions on free theorems. E.g., Prove: If e :: (forall r. (Int -> r -> r) ->r -> r), then e op z = foldr op z (e (:) []) |
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| 17:13:03 | <monochrom> | This year I gave this midterm test question: Prove by induction (on finite lists): filter p . map f = map f . filter (p . f) |
| 17:14:12 | <monochrom> | Then on the final exam: Prove that equation again but this time by free theorems, i.e., replace "filter" by arbitrary "e :: forall b. (Bool -> b) -> [b] -> [b]" and the equation will holds. |
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| 17:16:56 | <monochrom> | ("Clearly", the order of invention was the reverse. I first thought up that equation from free theorems, then buy-one-get-one-free it into two questions.) |
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| 17:19:39 | <monochrom> | OK, System F is not necessary to ask and answer those questions, but it was in the context of System F that I really learned how (forall r. (Int -> r -> r) ->r -> r) is in bijection with [Int]. |
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| 17:20:24 | <monochrom> | (and generally all positive ADTs) |
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| 17:41:25 | <dmj`> | yea for proofs it might be cool, could use agda / coq for that too. But would be nice to have a systemsy haskell |
| 17:47:49 | <[exa]> | dmj`: I'm kinda planning to connect the MicroHS frontend to my stupid 3kB-ish gmachine runner eventually (currently here https://gitea.blesmrt.net/exa/uskel), should be tiny enough. I'll notify here when that happens. |
| 17:48:23 | <dmj`> | [exa]: 404 :/ |
| 17:49:50 | <[exa]> | wait how come |
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| 17:50:25 | <dmj`> | [exa]: oh the URL was including ")," at the end, derp |
| 17:50:39 | <[exa]> | ah my bad I should spacinate |
| 17:51:13 | <Lears> | Or <URL>, as is the convention. |
| 17:51:25 | <dmj`> | [exa]: I'm curious how it will fare because I don't think microhs uses generational GC, and haskell allocates a lot and unknown function calls make generational GC a requirement for perf I think |
| 17:53:35 | <[exa]> | the cut from microhs will probably be somewhere just before they do the abstraction to kombinators, gc is from this one |
| 17:54:36 | <dmj`> | ah thats pretty cool |
| 17:54:44 | <[exa]> | the current one is minimalistic (1-level generational) but the code is like...50 instructions? |
| 17:55:54 | <dmj`> | in microhs? or you wrrote a gc in asm |
| 17:56:00 | <[exa]> | I guess I could do 2level in sensible space but I got all my free hackin time pretty much burned up lately, so yeah, might take some time |
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| 17:56:36 | <dmj`> | the fact you have any generational at all is impressive |
| 17:56:53 | <[exa]> | https://gitea.blesmrt.net/exa/uskel/src/branch/master/include/gc.s#L110 |
| 17:57:05 | <[exa]> | not sure how generational is 1 generation tho |
| 17:57:22 | <[exa]> | lemme check, might be it's not generational (I'm bad at nomenclature) |
| 17:57:54 | <[exa]> | ah yes "technically generational" |
| 17:58:07 | <[exa]> | but the only time the 2 generation coexist is the gc time |
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| 19:57:24 | <lystra> | I am building pandoc from source. How do I build its dependencies to install to a separate package database, apart from the GHC package database? I tried "runhaskell Setup configure --package-db=<pandoc package db>" but that throws a warning showing unavailable dependencies: https://gist.github.com/twwlogin/e979d9d2b084f3df04d48362e15b9f05. Setting GHC_PACKAGE_PATH throws a warning about this variable being incompatible with Cabal. Any ideas? |
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| 20:01:55 | <sclv> | lystra: with a new cabal just cabal-install it? |
| 20:02:49 | <lystra> | sclv: You mean don't install from source? I know that is an option but would still like to build from source. |
| 20:03:07 | <sclv> | cabal install builds from source |
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| 20:04:21 | <lystra> | cabal configure --package-db=<blah>/cabal build/cabal install? |
| 20:04:43 | <sclv> | you don’t need to configure |
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| 20:04:58 | <sclv> | “cabal install pandoc”. done |
| 20:05:30 | <lystra> | I need to build the dependencies though. |
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| 20:05:37 | <sclv> | this will put the deps in the new store, not the standard ghc pkgdb |
| 20:05:40 | <sclv> | automatically |
| 20:07:12 | <lystra> | cabal install pandoc --package-db=<blah> --prefix=<blah>? |
| 20:07:59 | <sclv> | no. no package-db argument. it doesn’t install in the main packagedb regardless but its own special “store” thats nix-style |
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| 20:08:22 | <sclv> | if you really want you can specify your own —store-dir but there’s no need |
| 20:09:08 | <sclv> | literally just “cabal install pandoc” |
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| 20:19:31 | <lystra> | I tried that and get https://gist.github.com/twwlogin/2e4537d450950d284f418e38668002b1. If I run "cabal build", the dependencies get installed to ~/.cabal/packages. But, I need to distribute this so need the dependencies centrally located. |
| 20:19:34 | <geekosaur> | it sounded to me like they want something they can carry to other systems? |
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| 20:19:55 | <geekosaur> | but that's going to be really painful, and changing the pkgdb won't help b ecause it references the store |
| 20:20:20 | <geekosaur> | I don't think cabal-install caters to that use case |
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| 20:21:07 | <lystra> | Doesn't GHC_PACKAGE_PATH support multiple package databases? |
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| 20:22:12 | <geekosaur> | it does, but (a) the store is not the package db (b) if you go that route you need to use only ghc and Setup.hs, not cabal |
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| 20:22:51 | <geekosaur> | because cabal doesn't support multiple stores, and doing it manually with Setup.hs will teach you why |
| 20:23:36 | <lystra> | That's fine. We built a bunch of other packages with Setup but we installed them to the main package db. Usually we run "runhaskell Setup configure/build/install". |
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| 20:24:58 | <lystra> | Using Setup configure --package-db, we installed "digest" to /usr/local/pandoc. Now we need to build "zip-archive" which depends on "digest" but cannot get "Setup configure" to find the "digest" package. |
| 20:25:02 | <geekosaur> | (or you can do it the way the ghc build does it for bootlibs, which involves copying all the artifacts into the package db entry directory and modifying the package.conf to point to them) |
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| 20:34:34 | <lystra> | How do I get Setup to find a dependency outside of the GHC package db? |
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| 20:36:22 | <[exa]> | lystra: can you put them into cabal.project? |
| 20:37:37 | <lystra> | The dependencies? zip-archive, for example, already has the dependencies in zip-archive.cabal. |
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| 20:38:32 | <[exa]> | I meant this: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.8/cabal-project.html?highlight=haddock-executables#specifying-the-local-packages |
| 20:38:46 | <[exa]> | you literally point it to a .cabal file of another package |
| 20:38:54 | <[exa]> | oic but your problem is likely more complex |
| 20:39:06 | <[exa]> | assume you're building the packages for some other packaging system? |
| 20:39:15 | <lystra> | Yes. |
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| 20:39:42 | <sclv> | lystra: responding to your message way above you can use —store-dir to change where the dependencies are installed |
| 20:40:03 | <lystra> | And I no nothing about Haskell. Just trying to learn the minimum possible to do this. But we do this for Python, Perl, Tcl, etc. |
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| 20:41:27 | <[exa]> | lystra: ah ok. Might be quite useful to have a look at how distros do this |
| 20:41:34 | <monochrom> | Setup cannot find dependency outside of the GHC package db. |
| 20:42:16 | <monochrom> | distros do their own dependency chasing and run each package's Setup in a correct order. |
| 20:42:30 | <lystra> | I've looked at the Fedora build but all dependencies are in the same directory. They don't have a separate location for where dependencies are stored for pandoc. We can do the same but we've historically placed dependencies with the program requiring them. |
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| 20:44:09 | <[exa]> | lystra: perhaps nix? (I thought it does separate the dependencies) |
| 20:44:36 | <lystra> | monochrom: Well, that's a bummer. Ok, thanks. |
| 20:44:39 | <sclv> | also one above error is “pandoc” is just a library. you want “pandoc-cli” for the executable |
| 20:46:07 | <sclv> | “cabal install pandoc-cli —store-dir=XXX |
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| 20:50:33 | <lystra> | cabal install --help doesn't mention --store-dir. This is with cabal --version returning 3.8.1.0. |
| 20:51:50 | <lystra> | Looks like --store-dir needs to be placed before the command (i.e. "install"). |
| 20:52:12 | <monochrom> | Would it be --installdir? Since this is an exe we're talking about. |
| 20:54:03 | <monochrom> | Err nevermind, the goal was to choose where to store dependencies, not the final exe. |
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| 21:33:05 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what part of haskell can't be modeled by system f? |
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| 22:12:29 | <monochrom> | I think all of it can. |
| 22:13:24 | <geekosaur> | the only thing I can think of is that it doesn't handle typeclasses "raw", but it's not really supposed to; they become constraints and explicit records of functions |
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| 22:35:19 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm i see, ty! |
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| 22:47:17 | <geekosaur> | also notable, constraints are not part of Hindley-Milner which is the basis of standard Haskell (the Haskell Report vaguely waves at "extended" when discussing this) |
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