Logs on 2024-09-06 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:31:39 | <Axman6> | mauke: Am I missing something in that paper, in the definition of `bookseller` it just ends? Feels like there's lines missing |
| 00:33:34 | <geekosaur> | looks complete to me, the rest is on the first column of the next page |
| 00:34:14 | <Axman6> | ah, runClient is indented, right |
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| 04:27:09 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> thirdofmay18081814goya the magical "|" you were looking for before is called "union type" or "untagged union type". I wouldn't recommend using it and even less inferring it as it is one of the main culprits of TypeScript not behaving that well on type inference |
| 04:29:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> For example, "if x then true else 2" is of type "Bool | Nat" instead of generating an error. The eliminator is in this case "typeof", which is type reflection but at runtime, needing to track more types at runtime rather than just typing a bit more for extra safety |
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| 04:30:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> More generally, union types are variants on the trivial row theory, that is, the one without labels/tags |
| 04:35:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> They also correspond to "v.any" ("v" is any variant, "any" is the "bottom label") in Leijen's 2004 type system, tho that one is static and explicit so either the context desambiguates (by type) or you do via a type application |
| 04:39:52 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> And re:typeclasses, the models that I know about are either THIH's, Agda/Gluon's (records marked as instances and mechanisms for autoinferring applications of those) and intersection types via records and "any". Technically you can also just pass the dictionary yourself, which is possible even in the lambda calculus |
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| 07:39:26 | <tomsmeding> | fr33domlover int-e: it is indeed a long-standing open problem https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/25238#note_582181 |
| 07:40:06 | <tomsmeding> | my summary of the linked issue (after skimming it): the current implementation has problems, but every solution proposed so far is either very hard to implement or suffers from the same or other problems -- or both |
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| 13:15:42 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: Good to know. |
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| 14:28:01 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Bowuigi: thanks a lot for this comment, I'll be researching these. what's THIH btw? |
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| 14:33:03 | <tomsmeding> | @where thih |
| 14:33:03 | <lambdabot> | http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mpj/thih/ |
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| 14:33:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: thanks! |
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| 17:39:31 | <hololeap> | anyone know why rio hasn't been updated in over 2 years? |
| 17:44:20 | <Clint> | did yesod replace it with something else? |
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| 18:01:33 | <hololeap> | yeah, no idea: https://github.com/yesodweb/yesod/issues/1645 |
| 18:01:41 | <hololeap> | anyway, I was just curious |
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| 18:49:57 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> does logic programming have some neat things |
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| 18:51:08 | <dolio> | Sure. |
| 18:52:41 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> dolio: what things in it do you find neat |
| 18:53:49 | <dolio> | Well, usually, the mechanism for computation is similar to the unification that is used for checking types, so it would be very easy to write type checkers with them. |
| 18:54:42 | <dolio> | You just write down the typing rules, more or less. |
| 18:55:02 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> huh cool! |
| 18:55:07 | <ski> | being able to specify things relationally, without explicit demarcation of inputs vs. output gives more flexibility, and, to some extent, reusability |
| 18:55:19 | <ski> | built-in search is cool |
| 18:55:20 | <dolio> | Or, type inference, I guess. |
| 18:55:27 | <dolio> | Not just checking. |
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| 18:56:24 | <ski> | logic programming combines smoothly with constraint programming, into constraint logic programming |
| 18:56:35 | <dolio> | The only part I'm uncertain how you'd handle is generalization. |
| 18:57:42 | <ski> | iirc, lambdaProlog has a primitive for that |
| 18:57:59 | <dolio> | Ah. |
| 18:58:02 | <[exa]> | generalization as in "generic programming" ? |
| 18:58:07 | <ski> | no |
| 18:58:26 | <dolio> | No, at some point you want to say, "take all the unground logic variables and turn them into object variables." |
| 18:58:36 | <ski> | generalization as in `let id x = x in (id False,id [True])' |
| 18:58:48 | <ski> | (inferring `id' here to be polymorphic) |
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| 19:02:35 | <dolio> | It's sort of a logic version of some kind of 'impure' operation. It involves treating a logic variable X in a way that isn't just standing in for a potential solution. You want to ask about the status of the variable itself. |
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| 19:04:27 | <ski> | yes, it's not steadfast |
| 19:04:40 | <ski> | (it breaks commutativity of conjunction) |
| 19:04:54 | <ski> | (at least, as usually done) |
| 19:05:31 | <[exa]> | ah this |
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| 19:58:00 | <briandaed> | I'm lost, suppose I write a small library and want to limit dependencies count, it will expose some list of sum types zipped with some literals, should I use String or Text for literals? |
| 20:00:56 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Text almost always Text |
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| 20:01:43 | <dmj`> | briandaed: text is a boot package so it will always be available in all ghc distributions w/o needing to query hackage. If performance is a big deal then use text, if not just use String, or you could try to keep it generic and let the user decide, there is an IsString class |
| 20:02:18 | <briandaed> | IsString way sounds nice |
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| 20:08:01 | <dmj`> | you could use a type variable and then the API will be constrained on IsString, and no need to embed the IsString constraint inside the datatype w/ existential quantification |
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| 20:12:15 | <briandaed> | hmm.. without IsString constraint compiler complains that it's missing |
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| 20:13:37 | <ski> | add it on the type signatures of the relevant operations |
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| 20:16:31 | <[exa]> | briandaed: what are you doing with the literals in your library? might be useful to just completely abstract out the literal type. |
| 20:17:02 | <briandaed> | need them for lookup table, searching by 'name' |
| 20:17:40 | <dmj`> | sounds like an Ord key constraint |
| 20:17:43 | <[exa]> | yourfunction :: Ord lit => lit -> something -> something ? |
| 20:17:46 | <[exa]> | yap |
| 20:17:50 | <dmj`> | ^ |
| 20:17:52 | <ski> | will the library need to use string literals, or only the user of the library ? |
| 20:18:16 | <[exa]> | briandaed: people may like to replace literals with integers etc. |
| 20:18:54 | <briandaed> | not in this case, I need to convert between iso639-1/2/3 codes and language name, i.e. "English" |
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| 20:19:39 | <[exa]> | ah okay then integers is not it |
| 20:22:10 | <[exa]> | are the literals somehow surprisingly long? |
| 20:22:40 | <[exa]> | if it's language codes and names I guess it's rarely going over 16 chars, right? |
| 20:22:49 | <briandaed> | exactly |
| 20:24:21 | <[exa]> | will you need to compare or match excruciating heaps of them? |
| 20:24:31 | <[exa]> | if not, go string |
| 20:25:48 | <[exa]> | if yes, comparing text may get faster in cases |
| 20:26:10 | <briandaed> | yeah but String seems to be so hated, some libraries (i.e. Protolude) ban them completly, IsString looks to be a good compromise, user will decide what is expected type |
| 20:26:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Technically you could store the entire string into a number, that would be faster than both text and string |
| 20:27:07 | <[exa]> | :] here we go |
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| 20:28:07 | <briandaed> | sounds like a hack, but it would be quite big numbers I think and not too userfriendly |
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| 20:29:13 | <[exa]> | btw with IsString, you'd need to convert to your storage type anyway, right? |
| 20:29:44 | <[exa]> | (because otherwise you'd go back to (IsString lit, Ord lit) => ... ) |
| 20:30:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> You need 128 bits for 16 ASCII characters, decent enough |
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| 20:32:41 | <geekosaur> | briandaed, the downside of IsString is that you can get into situations where things get converted a lot, especially if you use mono-traversable to further paper over the differences between String and Text |
| 20:33:29 | <geekosaur> | and of course going through a typeclass adds its own overhead |
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| 20:34:01 | <EvanR> | do string literal Text get precompiled or are they converted at runtime |
| 20:34:25 | <EvanR> | if not how do you do that |
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| 20:35:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The longest ISO language name is "Norwegian Nynorsk", 17 bytes (136 bits), tho endonyms may be longer |
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| 20:35:35 | <briandaed> | both enums and literals hardcoded, the question was to go with strings (base) or with texts(additional dependency), bet on IsStrin |
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| 20:36:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Hmmm a trie using the codes may be even faster. Anyway, strings should be fine tbh |
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| 20:37:25 | <briandaed> | as for names as Int(eger)s, even for just 128bits I doubt they are supported by ghc/hardware, probably will land as Integers so again not too fast, not that I need so much optimizations here |
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| 20:38:42 | <monochrom> | string literal Text are converted at run time. |
| 20:39:29 | <monochrom> | Fortunately, one once. |
| 20:39:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Huh, TIL, I guess flatparse uses TH because of that |
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| 20:41:00 | <monochrom> | text comes with GHC, so it is not very terrible to depend on text. Although, that was changed once and may change again one day. |
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| 20:48:33 | <EvanR> | is there a way to specify a pre-made Text in the code |
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| 20:49:07 | <monochrom> | The only pre-made Text is empty. |
| 20:49:43 | <briandaed> | monochrom: oops I didn't know that, but indeed https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/libraries/index.html Text is there |
| 20:50:13 | <monochrom> | OK if you break the abstraction layer you can write a primitive array and wrap it in the internal Text constructor. |
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| 20:52:43 | <EvanR> | can you even make a pre-made primitive array? xD |
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| 20:54:00 | <monochrom> | Hrm now I have to check the GHC user's guide... |
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| 20:57:05 | <monochrom> | Yeah probably can't. |
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| 21:05:55 | <monochrom> | OK the closest you can get is turn on MagicHash, then things like "hello"# is a UTF-8 NUL-terminated sequence, and the type is Addr# so you get the address of where that sequence is statically stored. |
| 21:06:50 | <dolio> | There might be a way to write rules that take advantage of that. |
| 21:07:26 | <geekosaur> | people keep requesting support for Text literals. the frustrating point is that, as they are compiled in, they already are — but you can't get at that form directly, the runtime always converts it to String |
| 21:07:45 | <dolio> | I.E. I thought string literals end up as something involving those hash strings at some point during compilation. Not sure how reliable it is, though. |
| 21:09:34 | <geekosaur> | they always are, because storing String literals in an executable would be a massive waste of space |
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| 21:10:01 | <geekosaur> | even compressing out the list structure, it'd be 4 bytes vs. (usually) 1 per character |
| 21:12:15 | <monochrom> | I was wrong about UTF-8. It's ISO-Latin-1. |
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| 21:13:59 | <dolio> | Example core: main = putStrLn (ghc-prim:GHC.CString.unpackCString# "hello"#) |
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| 21:16:24 | <monochrom> | Likewise for OverloadedString with Text. Basically Data.Text.Show.$wunpackCStringAscii# "hello"# |
| 21:17:09 | <dolio> | Okay, so they do hook into that somehow. |
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| 21:17:48 | <EvanR> | that's hilarious, it's already optimized but you can't get to it |
| 21:20:28 | <dolio> | You can get it with rules. That's how text does it. |
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