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Logs on 2024-09-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:44:04 <monochrom> Sure! Iff the algebra of the effect is a free algebra.
00:45:06 <monochrom> For example the algebraic effect of putChar and getChar (Plotkin's papers etc call it teletype) is an example.
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01:17:02 <dmwit> I'd like to make a parameterized pattern synonym. Is there a way? I tried `pattern Prefix :: String -> String; pattern Prefix s <- (stripPrefix s -> Just _)`, but GHC says s is not in scope.
01:18:44 <dmwit> (not in scope on the left, in particular, sorry)
01:20:59 <c_wraith> dmwit: you can't pass a *value* argument to a pattern, but...
01:21:22 <dmwit> oh I love that
01:21:38 <dmwit> Compile-time constants are good enough, thanks for the hint. ^_^
01:21:55 <c_wraith> I played around with this before. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/8ll7FMC7
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01:23:35 <c_wraith> You can do something like: case "foo bar" of PB2 @"foo" s -> s == " bar"
01:23:43 <c_wraith> (rename as you desire)
01:25:22 <c_wraith> Maybe in ghc 9.12, it can be modified to use RequiredTypeArguments so you don't even need the @
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01:40:11 <c_wraith> (I did just check. While 9.10 has -XRequiredTypeArguments, it can't be used in a pattern's type. Unsure if that's planned to change.)
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01:54:25 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm is there a deeper structure which relates algebraic effects to higher-order effects?
01:55:15 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i.e. does handling higher-order effects have to be done in an ad-hoc fashion
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02:10:50 <Leary> magic_rb: In `data Free f a = Pure a | Op (f (Free f a))`, the algebraic effect `Op :: forall f a. f (Free f a) -> Free f a` is a constructor parametric in `f`; it can only be a free F-algebra for any given F. You later collapse the free F-algebra by supplying an `F (M A) -> M A` for some monad M and A. For comparison, consider an implementation of algebraic effects using delimited control: you first supply an F-algebra `F (Cont R A) -> Cont R A`, then
02:10:51 <Leary> within a delimited scope you gain access to a corresponding (non-free) algebraic effect `opF :: forall b. F (Cont A b) -> Cont A b`.
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02:16:50 <Leary> thirdofmay: I don't know about "deeper structure", but 'A Framework for Higher-Order Effects & Handlers' unifies various ad-hoc extensions of base algebraic effects by enriching the free monad in a broad and direct (not so ad-hoc) way.
02:18:45 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: neat, will take a look, ty!
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03:47:50 <albet70> there is a list [[], [1,6], [2,7], [3], [], [4]] how to get the longest consecutive nunber [1,2,3]?
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03:50:47 <glguy> albet70: Check out Data.List.sortOn
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04:35:45 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's a semantic interpretation for haskell's free monad?
04:35:57 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> or a mathematical formalization
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04:36:41 <EvanR> free monad and free stuff is from math, haskell's free monad is the bastardization of that xD
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04:36:56 <EvanR> so it's already formalized
04:37:36 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> well that's the problem i need the formalization of the bastardized version
04:37:43 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> the thing that allows you to make tree-like structures
04:38:10 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> tree-like data structures
04:38:47 <EvanR> tree data structures is data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch [Tree a]
04:39:39 <EvanR> free monad is the totally uncommitted monad structure
04:40:56 <EvanR> like data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) is the totally uncommitted monoid
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04:42:18 <EvanR> you may also like "A free monad is a free object relative to a forgetful functor whose domain is a category of monads."
04:42:22 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: if we're speaking "Free f a", free monad multiplication is given by "f"? or what is it from the category-theoretical free monad that provides recursion-like properties?
04:42:27 <EvanR> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/free+monad
04:43:08 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah the issue with the ncatlab article is I don't get how it's used as a basis for recursive data structures, if it really corresponds to the category-theoretical free monad
04:43:14 <EvanR> it doesn't add recursion either...
04:44:56 <EvanR> the key to free stuff is the free-forgetful adjoint functor pair
04:45:30 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: what i'm saying is it doesn't tell us much about why it's useful for defining recursive data structures in haskell
04:45:38 <EvanR> that's not what it's for
04:45:53 <Leary> thirdofmay: Apart from the fact that `Free f a` ~ `Fix (Const a + f)`, free monads don't really have anything to do with defining recursive data structures.
04:46:42 <EvanR> in haskell you use it to define monadic actions against an API defined by a functor
04:46:54 <Leary> It sounds like what you actually want to know about is (type level) fixpoint operators.
04:46:56 <EvanR> then the actions can be interpreted by a separated runner
04:47:08 <EvanR> one or more runners
04:49:30 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: hm right
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06:47:10 <albet70> there are three list, take one element from everyone list, to form a new list, which function is for this?
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06:47:32 <monochrom> zip3?
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06:51:12 <albet70> [1,2] [3] [4,5,6] take one every time from one list, get [1,3,4] [1,3,5] [1,3,6] [2,3,4] [2,3,5] [2,3,6]
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06:53:15 <Leary> > sequenceA [[1, 2], [3], [4,5,6]]
06:53:16 <lambdabot> [[1,3,4],[1,3,5],[1,3,6],[2,3,4],[2,3,5],[2,3,6]]
06:53:25 <albet70> yes!
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07:09:11 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: EvanR Leary initial object in category of algebras over a free monad gives categorical semantics for inductive types
07:13:24 <JuanDaugherty> i just noticed this channel is a third of its peak size on freenode
07:16:12 <JuanDaugherty> guess there was some blow off to whereever the bridge goes
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07:22:02 <Leary> thirdofmay: You might have to flesh that out for us. Or provide a good reference.
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07:27:31 <albet70> is there function can check if a list is consective numbers like [1,2,3]?
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07:32:16 <haskellbridge> <Jade> isConsecutive [] = True
07:32:16 <haskellbridge> isCobsecutive (x : xs) = xs `isPrefixOf` [x + 1 ..]
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07:36:47 <ski> > (\xs -> and (zipWith (\x y -> x + 1 == y) xs (tail xs))) [0,1,2]
07:36:48 <lambdabot> True
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07:38:26 <Leary> I also had `all (== 1) . (zipWith subtract <*> tail)`, but Jade's is better.
07:38:44 <Leary> Though it gives me evil thoughts.
07:39:08 <Leary> :t (`isInfixOf` [minBound .. maxBound])
07:39:09 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Bounded a, Enum a) => [a] -> Bool
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07:50:56 <albet70> is there a function can get the sublist which is max length in a list? like [[1,2,3], [4]] the sublist is [1,2,3]
07:51:30 <tomsmeding> :t maximumBy
07:51:31 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> a -> Ordering) -> t a -> a
07:51:38 <tomsmeding> :t maximumBy (comparing length)
07:51:39 <lambdabot> (Foldable t1, Foldable t2) => t1 (t2 a) -> t2 a
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08:13:55 <JuanDaugherty> :version
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08:14:01 <JuanDaugherty> @version
08:14:01 <lambdabot> lambdabot 5.3.0.1
08:14:01 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
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08:50:44 <probie> A warning that `maximumBy` calls the supplied functions on each comparison, so may be a poor choice for "expensive" functions like `length`
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09:19:32 <Squared> I like Miso alot for SPA's, but as for any such there is a bit of overhead with message passing. If you just want a create a super simple database backed website in haskell what could be a good alternative? Ease of use prioritized here.
09:22:39 <Squared> .../minimal effort
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12:06:28 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: sorry had gone to sleep, https://maciejcs.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/free-monads-and-their-algebras/
12:07:41 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> initial object in category of algebra over endofunctor is categorical semantics for inductive types: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/initial+algebra+of+an+endofunctor#semantics_for_inductive_types
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12:09:04 <Franciman> what do you demand of an object to make it a semantics of a formal system?
12:10:46 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Franciman: be able to prove two derivations in the formal system are the same, beyond syntactic identity
12:10:53 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> in a satisfactory way
12:11:12 <Franciman> very demure
12:11:15 <Franciman> thanks
12:11:43 ski . o O ( proofnets )
12:11:57 <Franciman> proofnets are semantics for proofs?
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12:12:45 <ski> proofnets is an attempt to get rid of more of the accidental syntax of proofs/derivations
12:13:22 <Franciman> yes
12:13:47 <Franciman> so you think semantics is actually a more polished syntax? :P
12:13:59 <Franciman> would be nice to have a syntax directly working as semantics
12:14:17 <Franciman> according to herr thirdofmay18081814goya
12:14:24 <Franciman> definition
12:16:08 <ski> just mentioning it as something potentially interesting for (e.g.) thirdofmay18081814goya to check out
12:16:37 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> watching a conference about them as i wait for coffee to wake me up
12:16:52 <leah2> anything on proofnets that requires less exegesis than girard?
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12:17:10 <Franciman> yes leah2 there is something
12:17:18 <Franciman> i think you can look at erhard's work?
12:17:21 <Franciman> wait
12:17:39 <Franciman> sorry, retoré https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030439750100175X
12:17:46 <Franciman> also abrusci
12:17:55 <JuanDaugherty> TIL: perplexity
12:17:57 <ski> hm, i recognize that name, at least
12:18:12 <ski> @wn perplexity
12:18:13 <lambdabot> *** "perplexity" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:18:13 <lambdabot> perplexity
12:18:13 <lambdabot> n 1: trouble or confusion resulting from complexity
12:18:34 <JuanDaugherty> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perplexity
12:19:13 <Franciman> leah2: another source to get into proof nets is going via Linear Substitution Calculus by Accattoli and Kesner
12:19:38 <Franciman> it is a lambda calculus formalism that is isomorphic to proof nets for MELL iirc
12:19:38 <JuanDaugherty> but apparently its also a tool brand name and SMOG like measure on arkiv
12:19:58 <ski> (hm, i think i saw in some paper a reference to some paper by Abrusci (&al ?), on non-commutative logic)
12:20:05 <leah2> Franciman: thx
12:21:22 <Franciman> ski: i think retoré has done work on non communist logic too
12:21:26 <Franciman> err commutative*
12:21:44 <JuanDaugherty> freudian
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12:21:47 <ski> yea, i wasn't sure if i'd seen that name or not
12:24:04 <Franciman> ski: looking at dblp i see abrusci working on lambek calculus
12:24:48 <Franciman> lol i'm scared of reading: Formal Ontologies and Coherent Spaces. J. Appl. Log. 12(1): 67-74 (2014)
12:25:41 ski . o O ( "RedPRL is the People's Refinement Logic, a next-generation homage to Nuprl" <https://github.com/redprl/sml-redprl> )
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12:26:25 <ski> sounds exciting (and abstruse), Franciman :p
12:27:16 <Franciman> ski: hmm it seems related to semantic web ontologies
12:27:42 <Franciman> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570868313000487?via%3Dihub <- if you care
12:28:03 <Franciman> sounds fun tho, because they say they provide a geometrical way to work with ontologies
12:28:12 <ski> i know some people have applied categorical methodology to ontologies
12:28:15 <Franciman> and we all know what geometrical entails in this world of machine learning algorithms working on maifolds
12:28:22 <Franciman> do you have any link, ski ?
12:28:49 <ski> hm. maybe "Seven Sketches in Composability" has some relevant link in references
12:28:59 <Franciman> thanks
12:29:10 <ski> (it does have a chapter on applying CT to databases)
12:30:03 <ski> but i know i've seen some paper link on ontology stuff with CT, i think either ##prolog, or #logicmoo
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12:30:55 <ski> maybe dmiles could recall a link
12:32:32 <Franciman> sorry ski https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05316 is this the seven sketches you refer to?
12:38:11 <ski> yes, or <http://www.dspivak.net/7sketches.pdf>. also <http://brendanfong.com/7sketches.html>
12:38:30 <Franciman> ty
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12:53:26 <[exa]> monochrom: btw the interval tree from yesterday _is_ a really nice exercise in the end, even for implementation case analysis (the range splitting explodes very easily unless you fold the logic into data)
12:55:03 <[exa]> `Map beginIdx endIdx` is a pretty good representation, and you can assume the C-style open-ended intervals to make it really nice
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13:05:58 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Leary thanks but what you explained went way over my head, ill have to sit down and actually analyze what you said lol
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17:04:56 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: alternative formulation: suppose that we want to define a recursive data type X. then we're looking for T such that X = T(X). i.e., we're looking for a fixed point. a free monad is able to express such a fixed point
17:06:36 <monochrom> But free monads are a bit less general.
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17:08:41 <monochrom> For free monads, the fixed point equation is X(A) = T(A,X(A)), where T has the form T(A,R) = A + F(R), where F is a functor.
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17:10:46 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm right
17:11:01 <monochrom> [] does not fit that form, and even ignoring that form is still not a free monad, for example.
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17:11:37 <monochrom> But each [A] is a free algebra. :)
17:13:03 <monochrom> [A] = F([A]) where F is the functor F(R) = 1 + A*R.
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17:17:07 <monochrom> Fortunately, you can see how X(A) above is also a free algebra, using the functor G(R) = A + F(R).
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18:23:29 <lxsameer> hey folks, how do you add a dependency flag to your cabal and ghci workflow? for example one on my dependencies has a flag -f json.
18:23:51 <lxsameer> when I add it to my ghc-options cabal is happy and builds, but ghci yells at me
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18:24:17 <tomsmeding> lxsameer: I take it you have a *.cabal file? Do you have a cabal.project file too?
18:24:17 <sclv> you can specify a flag for a dependency in a cabal.project file
18:24:21 <davean> use cabal repl
18:24:26 <geekosaur> ^
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18:24:38 <tomsmeding> also that, plain ghci will not work in a cabal project
18:25:03 <geekosaur> well, it will if you use environment files, but they'll also bite your ass at some point
18:25:24 <lxsameer> tomsmeding: yeah i have both
18:25:26 <sclv> also if your dependency has a flag that changes the exposed api surface area, then that is a Bad Practice and they shouldn't do that (not that you necessarily can control that)
18:25:34 <tomsmeding> lxsameer: if you want to see how to write flags: look at a freeze file, i.e. `cabal freeze` and then look at cabal.project.freeze
18:25:34 <lxsameer> ah, ok so not the main file
18:25:40 <tomsmeding> that file is valid syntax for a cabal.project
18:25:46 <lxsameer> cheers
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18:26:06 <sclv> here's some example syntax in the docs https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#solver-configuration-options
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18:26:45 <monochrom> Yeah putting it cabal.project is cleaner than remembering that you have to say "cabal install --lib ... tons of options to sets flags ..."
18:27:00 <geekosaur> --write-environment-files=always
18:27:08 <geekosaur> (or cabal.project equivalent)
18:27:21 <geekosaur> but, as I said, eventually it'll bite your ass hard
18:27:54 <geekosaur> it's like "cabal hell" but limited to your project because they're written to local build directories
18:28:33 <tomsmeding> *project directories, right?
18:28:38 <tomsmeding> ghc won't look in dist-newstyle
18:28:39 <geekosaur> once you start building up different versions, ghc will start grabbing wrong versions of deps
18:28:41 <lxsameer> cabal.project.local would be acceptable right?
18:28:45 <geekosaur> yes
18:28:55 <geekosaur> tomsmeding, source dirs
18:28:57 <tomsmeding> cabal.project.local is for stuff you don't want to push
18:29:17 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: right. My definition of "build directory" is "dist-newstyle" :p
18:30:15 <monochrom> I still use cabal-install --lib, but now I keep it in directory-local env files. :)
18:30:42 <tomsmeding> it's not that it can't work, but if you don't need it, better not have to think about doing it right
18:32:51 <geekosaur> yep. still has this problem lurking, thoiugh. it's safest with a freeze file and nuking the env files any time you update the freeze file. I *think* that will avoid the worst issues
18:32:59 <monochrom> Its just for study notes. A different topic to learn uses a different directory, e.g., I have one directory for learning hmatrix, a different one for learning sqlite and the sqlite-simple package. They won't interfere with each other.
18:34:05 <monochrom> More seriously projects like my https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc are properly cabalized.
18:34:51 <monochrom> Basically iff I would just want to say "make" if it were C, I cabalize for Haskell.
18:35:03 <dmj`> would be interesting to make a language that compiles to sqlite VM instructions, w/ a static type system
18:35:12 <tomsmeding> the thing with C is that the step from `make` to something else is humungous
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19:39:07 <cheater> tomsmeding: why are freeze files necessary to have a dependency flag?
19:39:20 <tomsmeding> cheater: they aren't
19:39:32 <geekosaur> it's just a convenient way to see where dep flags fit in
19:39:35 <tomsmeding> I just pointed to them as an example of how the syntax works
19:39:43 <cheater> ahh
19:39:45 <cheater> gotcha, thanks guys
19:39:55 <tomsmeding> because freeze files contents are the same language as what goes in cabal.project
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20:04:57 <__monty__> tomsmeding: I keep hearing good things about Meson.
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20:15:01 <geekosaur> the point, I think, was more that moving from make to anything else is a "complete build system rewrite" deal, not a simple migration
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20:15:16 <geekosaur> (and possibly redesign)
20:17:02 <geekosaur> none of the make alternatives are drop-in replacements
20:18:03 <geekosaur> even early ones like cake (roughly, a cross between make and ccache) took a lot of work
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20:23:21 <tomsmeding> __monty__: does meson do dependencies?
20:23:35 <tomsmeding> as long as there are no dependencies to be built/installed, I can do with make just fine
20:24:17 <EvanR> this? https://cakebuild.net/
20:24:23 <tomsmeding> preprocessing source files is no problem, multiple different configurations can be done with variables
20:24:35 <tomsmeding> make is perfectly fine UNTIL one needs anything involving external dependencies
20:24:45 <geekosaur> no, I'm talking about one from back in 1989ish
20:25:11 <geekosaur> it was aware of configurations, cached build products, and shared them across configurations when possible
20:25:55 <geekosaur> its downfall was that by far the most common pair of configurations is "devel / production" (debug-forward vs. optimization-forward), where the possible sharing is pretty much 0
20:26:12 <geekosaur> oh, and defining configurations was messy
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20:27:21 <geekosaur> https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Cake%3A-a-fifth-generation-version-of-make-Somogyi/3e973b5c9af7763d70cdfaabdd1b96b3b75b5483
20:29:51 <geekosaur> in practice, make+ccache turned out to be more practically usable
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