Logs on 2024-09-14 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:44:04 | <monochrom> | Sure! Iff the algebra of the effect is a free algebra. |
| 00:45:06 | <monochrom> | For example the algebraic effect of putChar and getChar (Plotkin's papers etc call it teletype) is an example. |
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| 01:17:02 | <dmwit> | I'd like to make a parameterized pattern synonym. Is there a way? I tried `pattern Prefix :: String -> String; pattern Prefix s <- (stripPrefix s -> Just _)`, but GHC says s is not in scope. |
| 01:18:44 | <dmwit> | (not in scope on the left, in particular, sorry) |
| 01:20:59 | <c_wraith> | dmwit: you can't pass a *value* argument to a pattern, but... |
| 01:21:22 | <dmwit> | oh I love that |
| 01:21:38 | <dmwit> | Compile-time constants are good enough, thanks for the hint. ^_^ |
| 01:21:55 | <c_wraith> | I played around with this before. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/8ll7FMC7 |
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| 01:23:35 | <c_wraith> | You can do something like: case "foo bar" of PB2 @"foo" s -> s == " bar" |
| 01:23:43 | <c_wraith> | (rename as you desire) |
| 01:25:22 | <c_wraith> | Maybe in ghc 9.12, it can be modified to use RequiredTypeArguments so you don't even need the @ |
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| 01:40:11 | <c_wraith> | (I did just check. While 9.10 has -XRequiredTypeArguments, it can't be used in a pattern's type. Unsure if that's planned to change.) |
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| 01:54:25 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm is there a deeper structure which relates algebraic effects to higher-order effects? |
| 01:55:15 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> i.e. does handling higher-order effects have to be done in an ad-hoc fashion |
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| 02:10:50 | <Leary> | magic_rb: In `data Free f a = Pure a | Op (f (Free f a))`, the algebraic effect `Op :: forall f a. f (Free f a) -> Free f a` is a constructor parametric in `f`; it can only be a free F-algebra for any given F. You later collapse the free F-algebra by supplying an `F (M A) -> M A` for some monad M and A. For comparison, consider an implementation of algebraic effects using delimited control: you first supply an F-algebra `F (Cont R A) -> Cont R A`, then |
| 02:10:51 | <Leary> | within a delimited scope you gain access to a corresponding (non-free) algebraic effect `opF :: forall b. F (Cont A b) -> Cont A b`. |
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| 02:16:50 | <Leary> | thirdofmay: I don't know about "deeper structure", but 'A Framework for Higher-Order Effects & Handlers' unifies various ad-hoc extensions of base algebraic effects by enriching the free monad in a broad and direct (not so ad-hoc) way. |
| 02:18:45 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: neat, will take a look, ty! |
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| 03:47:50 | <albet70> | there is a list [[], [1,6], [2,7], [3], [], [4]] how to get the longest consecutive nunber [1,2,3]? |
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| 03:50:47 | <glguy> | albet70: Check out Data.List.sortOn |
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| 04:35:45 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's a semantic interpretation for haskell's free monad? |
| 04:35:57 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> or a mathematical formalization |
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| 04:36:41 | <EvanR> | free monad and free stuff is from math, haskell's free monad is the bastardization of that xD |
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| 04:36:56 | <EvanR> | so it's already formalized |
| 04:37:36 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> well that's the problem i need the formalization of the bastardized version |
| 04:37:43 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> the thing that allows you to make tree-like structures |
| 04:38:10 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tree-like data structures |
| 04:38:47 | <EvanR> | tree data structures is data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch [Tree a] |
| 04:39:39 | <EvanR> | free monad is the totally uncommitted monad structure |
| 04:40:56 | <EvanR> | like data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) is the totally uncommitted monoid |
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| 04:42:18 | <EvanR> | you may also like "A free monad is a free object relative to a forgetful functor whose domain is a category of monads." |
| 04:42:22 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: if we're speaking "Free f a", free monad multiplication is given by "f"? or what is it from the category-theoretical free monad that provides recursion-like properties? |
| 04:42:27 | <EvanR> | https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/free+monad |
| 04:43:08 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah the issue with the ncatlab article is I don't get how it's used as a basis for recursive data structures, if it really corresponds to the category-theoretical free monad |
| 04:43:14 | <EvanR> | it doesn't add recursion either... |
| 04:44:56 | <EvanR> | the key to free stuff is the free-forgetful adjoint functor pair |
| 04:45:30 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: what i'm saying is it doesn't tell us much about why it's useful for defining recursive data structures in haskell |
| 04:45:38 | <EvanR> | that's not what it's for |
| 04:45:53 | <Leary> | thirdofmay: Apart from the fact that `Free f a` ~ `Fix (Const a + f)`, free monads don't really have anything to do with defining recursive data structures. |
| 04:46:42 | <EvanR> | in haskell you use it to define monadic actions against an API defined by a functor |
| 04:46:54 | <Leary> | It sounds like what you actually want to know about is (type level) fixpoint operators. |
| 04:46:56 | <EvanR> | then the actions can be interpreted by a separated runner |
| 04:47:08 | <EvanR> | one or more runners |
| 04:49:30 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: hm right |
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| 06:47:10 | <albet70> | there are three list, take one element from everyone list, to form a new list, which function is for this? |
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| 06:47:32 | <monochrom> | zip3? |
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| 06:51:12 | <albet70> | [1,2] [3] [4,5,6] take one every time from one list, get [1,3,4] [1,3,5] [1,3,6] [2,3,4] [2,3,5] [2,3,6] |
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| 06:53:15 | <Leary> | > sequenceA [[1, 2], [3], [4,5,6]] |
| 06:53:16 | <lambdabot> | [[1,3,4],[1,3,5],[1,3,6],[2,3,4],[2,3,5],[2,3,6]] |
| 06:53:25 | <albet70> | yes! |
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| 07:09:11 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: EvanR Leary initial object in category of algebras over a free monad gives categorical semantics for inductive types |
| 07:13:24 | <JuanDaugherty> | i just noticed this channel is a third of its peak size on freenode |
| 07:16:12 | <JuanDaugherty> | guess there was some blow off to whereever the bridge goes |
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| 07:22:02 | <Leary> | thirdofmay: You might have to flesh that out for us. Or provide a good reference. |
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| 07:27:31 | <albet70> | is there function can check if a list is consective numbers like [1,2,3]? |
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| 07:32:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> isConsecutive [] = True |
| 07:32:16 | <haskellbridge> | isCobsecutive (x : xs) = xs `isPrefixOf` [x + 1 ..] |
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| 07:36:47 | <ski> | > (\xs -> and (zipWith (\x y -> x + 1 == y) xs (tail xs))) [0,1,2] |
| 07:36:48 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 07:38:26 | <Leary> | I also had `all (== 1) . (zipWith subtract <*> tail)`, but Jade's is better. |
| 07:38:44 | <Leary> | Though it gives me evil thoughts. |
| 07:39:08 | <Leary> | :t (`isInfixOf` [minBound .. maxBound]) |
| 07:39:09 | <lambdabot> | (Eq a, Bounded a, Enum a) => [a] -> Bool |
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| 07:50:56 | <albet70> | is there a function can get the sublist which is max length in a list? like [[1,2,3], [4]] the sublist is [1,2,3] |
| 07:51:30 | <tomsmeding> | :t maximumBy |
| 07:51:31 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> a -> Ordering) -> t a -> a |
| 07:51:38 | <tomsmeding> | :t maximumBy (comparing length) |
| 07:51:39 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t1, Foldable t2) => t1 (t2 a) -> t2 a |
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| 08:13:55 | <JuanDaugherty> | :version |
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| 08:14:01 | <JuanDaugherty> | @version |
| 08:14:01 | <lambdabot> | lambdabot 5.3.0.1 |
| 08:14:01 | <lambdabot> | git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot |
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| 08:50:44 | <probie> | A warning that `maximumBy` calls the supplied functions on each comparison, so may be a poor choice for "expensive" functions like `length` |
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| 09:19:32 | <Squared> | I like Miso alot for SPA's, but as for any such there is a bit of overhead with message passing. If you just want a create a super simple database backed website in haskell what could be a good alternative? Ease of use prioritized here. |
| 09:22:39 | <Squared> | .../minimal effort |
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| 12:06:28 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: sorry had gone to sleep, https://maciejcs.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/free-monads-and-their-algebras/ |
| 12:07:41 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> initial object in category of algebra over endofunctor is categorical semantics for inductive types: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/initial+algebra+of+an+endofunctor#semantics_for_inductive_types |
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| 12:09:04 | <Franciman> | what do you demand of an object to make it a semantics of a formal system? |
| 12:10:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Franciman: be able to prove two derivations in the formal system are the same, beyond syntactic identity |
| 12:10:53 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> in a satisfactory way |
| 12:11:12 | <Franciman> | very demure |
| 12:11:15 | <Franciman> | thanks |
| 12:11:43 | ski | . o O ( proofnets ) |
| 12:11:57 | <Franciman> | proofnets are semantics for proofs? |
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| 12:12:45 | <ski> | proofnets is an attempt to get rid of more of the accidental syntax of proofs/derivations |
| 12:13:22 | <Franciman> | yes |
| 12:13:47 | <Franciman> | so you think semantics is actually a more polished syntax? :P |
| 12:13:59 | <Franciman> | would be nice to have a syntax directly working as semantics |
| 12:14:17 | <Franciman> | according to herr thirdofmay18081814goya |
| 12:14:24 | <Franciman> | definition |
| 12:16:08 | <ski> | just mentioning it as something potentially interesting for (e.g.) thirdofmay18081814goya to check out |
| 12:16:37 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> watching a conference about them as i wait for coffee to wake me up |
| 12:16:52 | <leah2> | anything on proofnets that requires less exegesis than girard? |
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| 12:17:10 | <Franciman> | yes leah2 there is something |
| 12:17:18 | <Franciman> | i think you can look at erhard's work? |
| 12:17:21 | <Franciman> | wait |
| 12:17:39 | <Franciman> | sorry, retoré https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030439750100175X |
| 12:17:46 | <Franciman> | also abrusci |
| 12:17:55 | <JuanDaugherty> | TIL: perplexity |
| 12:17:57 | <ski> | hm, i recognize that name, at least |
| 12:18:12 | <ski> | @wn perplexity |
| 12:18:13 | <lambdabot> | *** "perplexity" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" |
| 12:18:13 | <lambdabot> | perplexity |
| 12:18:13 | <lambdabot> | n 1: trouble or confusion resulting from complexity |
| 12:18:34 | <JuanDaugherty> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perplexity |
| 12:19:13 | <Franciman> | leah2: another source to get into proof nets is going via Linear Substitution Calculus by Accattoli and Kesner |
| 12:19:38 | <Franciman> | it is a lambda calculus formalism that is isomorphic to proof nets for MELL iirc |
| 12:19:38 | <JuanDaugherty> | but apparently its also a tool brand name and SMOG like measure on arkiv |
| 12:19:58 | <ski> | (hm, i think i saw in some paper a reference to some paper by Abrusci (&al ?), on non-commutative logic) |
| 12:20:05 | <leah2> | Franciman: thx |
| 12:21:22 | <Franciman> | ski: i think retoré has done work on non communist logic too |
| 12:21:26 | <Franciman> | err commutative* |
| 12:21:44 | <JuanDaugherty> | freudian |
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| 12:21:47 | <ski> | yea, i wasn't sure if i'd seen that name or not |
| 12:24:04 | <Franciman> | ski: looking at dblp i see abrusci working on lambek calculus |
| 12:24:48 | <Franciman> | lol i'm scared of reading: Formal Ontologies and Coherent Spaces. J. Appl. Log. 12(1): 67-74 (2014) |
| 12:25:41 | ski | . o O ( "RedPRL is the People's Refinement Logic, a next-generation homage to Nuprl" <https://github.com/redprl/sml-redprl> ) |
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| 12:26:25 | <ski> | sounds exciting (and abstruse), Franciman :p |
| 12:27:16 | <Franciman> | ski: hmm it seems related to semantic web ontologies |
| 12:27:42 | <Franciman> | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570868313000487?via%3Dihub <- if you care |
| 12:28:03 | <Franciman> | sounds fun tho, because they say they provide a geometrical way to work with ontologies |
| 12:28:12 | <ski> | i know some people have applied categorical methodology to ontologies |
| 12:28:15 | <Franciman> | and we all know what geometrical entails in this world of machine learning algorithms working on maifolds |
| 12:28:22 | <Franciman> | do you have any link, ski ? |
| 12:28:49 | <ski> | hm. maybe "Seven Sketches in Composability" has some relevant link in references |
| 12:28:59 | <Franciman> | thanks |
| 12:29:10 | <ski> | (it does have a chapter on applying CT to databases) |
| 12:30:03 | <ski> | but i know i've seen some paper link on ontology stuff with CT, i think either ##prolog, or #logicmoo |
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| 12:30:55 | <ski> | maybe dmiles could recall a link |
| 12:32:32 | <Franciman> | sorry ski https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05316 is this the seven sketches you refer to? |
| 12:38:11 | <ski> | yes, or <http://www.dspivak.net/7sketches.pdf>. also <http://brendanfong.com/7sketches.html> |
| 12:38:30 | <Franciman> | ty |
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| 12:53:26 | <[exa]> | monochrom: btw the interval tree from yesterday _is_ a really nice exercise in the end, even for implementation case analysis (the range splitting explodes very easily unless you fold the logic into data) |
| 12:55:03 | <[exa]> | `Map beginIdx endIdx` is a pretty good representation, and you can assume the C-style open-ended intervals to make it really nice |
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| 13:05:58 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Leary thanks but what you explained went way over my head, ill have to sit down and actually analyze what you said lol |
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| 17:04:56 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: alternative formulation: suppose that we want to define a recursive data type X. then we're looking for T such that X = T(X). i.e., we're looking for a fixed point. a free monad is able to express such a fixed point |
| 17:06:36 | <monochrom> | But free monads are a bit less general. |
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| 17:08:41 | <monochrom> | For free monads, the fixed point equation is X(A) = T(A,X(A)), where T has the form T(A,R) = A + F(R), where F is a functor. |
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| 17:10:46 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm right |
| 17:11:01 | <monochrom> | [] does not fit that form, and even ignoring that form is still not a free monad, for example. |
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| 17:11:37 | <monochrom> | But each [A] is a free algebra. :) |
| 17:13:03 | <monochrom> | [A] = F([A]) where F is the functor F(R) = 1 + A*R. |
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| 17:17:07 | <monochrom> | Fortunately, you can see how X(A) above is also a free algebra, using the functor G(R) = A + F(R). |
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| 18:23:29 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, how do you add a dependency flag to your cabal and ghci workflow? for example one on my dependencies has a flag -f json. |
| 18:23:51 | <lxsameer> | when I add it to my ghc-options cabal is happy and builds, but ghci yells at me |
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| 18:24:17 | <tomsmeding> | lxsameer: I take it you have a *.cabal file? Do you have a cabal.project file too? |
| 18:24:17 | <sclv> | you can specify a flag for a dependency in a cabal.project file |
| 18:24:21 | <davean> | use cabal repl |
| 18:24:26 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
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| 18:24:38 | <tomsmeding> | also that, plain ghci will not work in a cabal project |
| 18:25:03 | <geekosaur> | well, it will if you use environment files, but they'll also bite your ass at some point |
| 18:25:24 | <lxsameer> | tomsmeding: yeah i have both |
| 18:25:26 | <sclv> | also if your dependency has a flag that changes the exposed api surface area, then that is a Bad Practice and they shouldn't do that (not that you necessarily can control that) |
| 18:25:34 | <tomsmeding> | lxsameer: if you want to see how to write flags: look at a freeze file, i.e. `cabal freeze` and then look at cabal.project.freeze |
| 18:25:34 | <lxsameer> | ah, ok so not the main file |
| 18:25:40 | <tomsmeding> | that file is valid syntax for a cabal.project |
| 18:25:46 | <lxsameer> | cheers |
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| 18:26:06 | <sclv> | here's some example syntax in the docs https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#solver-configuration-options |
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| 18:26:45 | <monochrom> | Yeah putting it cabal.project is cleaner than remembering that you have to say "cabal install --lib ... tons of options to sets flags ..." |
| 18:27:00 | <geekosaur> | --write-environment-files=always |
| 18:27:08 | <geekosaur> | (or cabal.project equivalent) |
| 18:27:21 | <geekosaur> | but, as I said, eventually it'll bite your ass hard |
| 18:27:54 | <geekosaur> | it's like "cabal hell" but limited to your project because they're written to local build directories |
| 18:28:33 | <tomsmeding> | *project directories, right? |
| 18:28:38 | <tomsmeding> | ghc won't look in dist-newstyle |
| 18:28:39 | <geekosaur> | once you start building up different versions, ghc will start grabbing wrong versions of deps |
| 18:28:41 | <lxsameer> | cabal.project.local would be acceptable right? |
| 18:28:45 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 18:28:55 | <geekosaur> | tomsmeding, source dirs |
| 18:28:57 | <tomsmeding> | cabal.project.local is for stuff you don't want to push |
| 18:29:17 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: right. My definition of "build directory" is "dist-newstyle" :p |
| 18:30:15 | <monochrom> | I still use cabal-install --lib, but now I keep it in directory-local env files. :) |
| 18:30:42 | <tomsmeding> | it's not that it can't work, but if you don't need it, better not have to think about doing it right |
| 18:32:51 | <geekosaur> | yep. still has this problem lurking, thoiugh. it's safest with a freeze file and nuking the env files any time you update the freeze file. I *think* that will avoid the worst issues |
| 18:32:59 | <monochrom> | Its just for study notes. A different topic to learn uses a different directory, e.g., I have one directory for learning hmatrix, a different one for learning sqlite and the sqlite-simple package. They won't interfere with each other. |
| 18:34:05 | <monochrom> | More seriously projects like my https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc are properly cabalized. |
| 18:34:51 | <monochrom> | Basically iff I would just want to say "make" if it were C, I cabalize for Haskell. |
| 18:35:03 | <dmj`> | would be interesting to make a language that compiles to sqlite VM instructions, w/ a static type system |
| 18:35:12 | <tomsmeding> | the thing with C is that the step from `make` to something else is humungous |
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| 19:39:07 | <cheater> | tomsmeding: why are freeze files necessary to have a dependency flag? |
| 19:39:20 | <tomsmeding> | cheater: they aren't |
| 19:39:32 | <geekosaur> | it's just a convenient way to see where dep flags fit in |
| 19:39:35 | <tomsmeding> | I just pointed to them as an example of how the syntax works |
| 19:39:43 | <cheater> | ahh |
| 19:39:45 | <cheater> | gotcha, thanks guys |
| 19:39:55 | <tomsmeding> | because freeze files contents are the same language as what goes in cabal.project |
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| 20:04:57 | <__monty__> | tomsmeding: I keep hearing good things about Meson. |
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| 20:15:01 | <geekosaur> | the point, I think, was more that moving from make to anything else is a "complete build system rewrite" deal, not a simple migration |
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| 20:15:16 | <geekosaur> | (and possibly redesign) |
| 20:17:02 | <geekosaur> | none of the make alternatives are drop-in replacements |
| 20:18:03 | <geekosaur> | even early ones like cake (roughly, a cross between make and ccache) took a lot of work |
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| 20:23:21 | <tomsmeding> | __monty__: does meson do dependencies? |
| 20:23:35 | <tomsmeding> | as long as there are no dependencies to be built/installed, I can do with make just fine |
| 20:24:17 | <EvanR> | this? https://cakebuild.net/ |
| 20:24:23 | <tomsmeding> | preprocessing source files is no problem, multiple different configurations can be done with variables |
| 20:24:35 | <tomsmeding> | make is perfectly fine UNTIL one needs anything involving external dependencies |
| 20:24:45 | <geekosaur> | no, I'm talking about one from back in 1989ish |
| 20:25:11 | <geekosaur> | it was aware of configurations, cached build products, and shared them across configurations when possible |
| 20:25:55 | <geekosaur> | its downfall was that by far the most common pair of configurations is "devel / production" (debug-forward vs. optimization-forward), where the possible sharing is pretty much 0 |
| 20:26:12 | <geekosaur> | oh, and defining configurations was messy |
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| 20:27:21 | <geekosaur> | https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Cake%3A-a-fifth-generation-version-of-make-Somogyi/3e973b5c9af7763d70cdfaabdd1b96b3b75b5483 |
| 20:29:51 | <geekosaur> | in practice, make+ccache turned out to be more practically usable |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-09-14.