Logs on 2024-09-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:48:01 | <monochrom> | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920548901000599 Someone actually tried to give C a denotational semantics. Moreover, "a direct implementation of the semantics, using the programming language Haskell". |
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| 03:55:29 | <Inst> | <|> is sort of bad, sin't it? |
| 03:55:34 | <Inst> | unless it has the right rewrite rules for it |
| 03:55:43 | <Inst> | a <|> b <|> c doesn't fail correctly |
| 03:56:01 | <Inst> | *succeed correctly |
| 03:56:08 | <Inst> | if a short circuits, the second <|> is triggered |
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| 03:58:52 | <jle`> | Inst: what instance are you think of ? |
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| 03:59:51 | <Inst> | let me check maybe again |
| 04:00:32 | <Inst> | yup, alternative maybe |
| 04:00:44 | <Inst> | it'll keep on checking Just values when it can just short-circuit |
| 04:01:56 | <monochrom> | > Just 4 <|> undefined |
| 04:01:57 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 04:02:03 | <monochrom> | Debunked. |
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| 04:03:43 | <Inst> | > Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined |
| 04:03:45 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 04:03:51 | <Inst> | no, the claim is that the second <|> will trigger |
| 04:04:29 | <Inst> | what I want is Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined), which can be provided by rewrite rules, tbh |
| 04:04:50 | <monochrom> | > Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined) |
| 04:04:52 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 04:04:56 | <monochrom> | Debunked. |
| 04:05:01 | <Inst> | ??? |
| 04:05:18 | <mauke> | <|> is left assoc |
| 04:05:20 | <Inst> | the claim i'm making isn't being tested properly, what I mean is that there are two <|>s in the expression |
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| 04:05:39 | <monochrom> | > Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined |
| 04:05:41 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 04:05:44 | <monochrom> | Debunked. |
| 04:05:51 | <Inst> | only the first <|> should trigger, the second should fail through (in an ideal world |
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| 04:06:05 | <Inst> | Just 4 <|> (undefined <|> undefined) should be operationally equivalent to Just 4 <|> undefined <|> undefined |
| 04:06:42 | <monochrom> | I don't know what "trigger" means. Is this Haskell or is this SQL "create trigger"? |
| 04:06:49 | <Inst> | hold on |
| 04:06:58 | <Leary> | You can just declare `(<||>) = (<|>); infixr 3 <||>`; if you want right associativity. |
| 04:07:05 | <monochrom> | But I have shown enough working examples. Where is the breakage? |
| 04:07:10 | <Inst> | hmmm, i can't do this with foldr and infinite lists |
| 04:07:29 | <monochrom> | Your turn to show an example not essay writing. |
| 04:07:36 | <Inst> | assume an inifnite sequence of Just 4 <|> something <|> something... |
| 04:07:52 | <Inst> | this should never evaluate, because the <|> keeps on getting applied |
| 04:07:53 | <mauke> | it's not about correctness, only performance. I think |
| 04:08:15 | <monochrom> | I don't know how to write an infinitely long piece of code. Do you? |
| 04:08:37 | <Leary> | > asum (Just 4:repeat undefined) |
| 04:08:38 | <monochrom> | My disk has only 250GB it can't save an infinite source file. |
| 04:08:39 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
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| 04:09:03 | <Inst> | i thought you could do it with foldr (<|>) Nothing (Just 4 : repeat Nothing), but it'll insert parens |
| 04:09:17 | <monochrom> | foldr is fair. |
| 04:09:27 | <mauke> | (Just x <|> b) <|> c goes through two applications of (<|>); Just x <|> (a <|> b) only goes through one |
| 04:09:28 | <Inst> | but you can't do it with foldr because iirc the parens are implicit |
| 04:09:31 | <Inst> | thanks Leary |
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| 04:09:40 | <monochrom> | > foldr (<|>) undefined (Just 4 : repeat undefined) |
| 04:09:42 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
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| 04:09:48 | <monochrom> | Still no breakage. |
| 04:09:55 | <Inst> | no, but it won't break with foldr |
| 04:10:04 | <monochrom> | OK, what will break? |
| 04:10:05 | <mauke> | it won't break at all |
| 04:10:11 | <Inst> | it's a performance concern, as mauke stated |
| 04:10:16 | <monochrom> | Actual code or it didn't happen. |
| 04:10:26 | <probie> | monochrom: As long as the k-complexity is finite, you can easily "fake it" with a custom fuse mount |
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| 04:10:30 | <monochrom> | For performance you can show actual benchmark. |
| 04:11:09 | <monochrom> | which unsurprisingly imples actual code again. |
| 04:11:20 | <monochrom> | Not meaningless words like "assume" "infinite". |
| 04:11:24 | <ski> | "it'll insert parens","the parens are implicit" -- ? |
| 04:11:27 | <Inst> | is your point that the repeated applications of <|> is essentially pendantry? |
| 04:12:00 | <mauke> | ski: that's someone thinking in concrete syntax, not expression graphs :-) |
| 04:12:20 | <monochrom> | No, my point is until you show actual example you don't even know what's the true cause. |
| 04:12:33 | ski | graphs expressions against concrete syntax, extrapolates to infinity |
| 04:12:54 | <monochrom> | You are acting like absolute beginners who end up blaming everything except the true cause. |
| 04:13:18 | <mauke> | cause of what? |
| 04:13:44 | <monochrom> | An unspecified breakage. (See that's the 2nd problem.) |
| 04:13:52 | ski | . o O ( "Do not ask whether a statement is true until you know what it means." -- Errett Bishop ) |
| 04:13:55 | <mauke> | monochrom: old news. there is no breakage anymore |
| 04:14:21 | <monochrom> | OK sure. |
| 04:14:35 | <monochrom> | What was the question again? |
| 04:14:46 | <mauke> | <mauke> (Just x <|> b) <|> c goes through two applications of (<|>); Just x <|> (a <|> b) only goes through one |
| 04:14:52 | <mauke> | so why is <|> infixl and not infixr? |
| 04:15:43 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's a poor decision. |
| 04:16:48 | <monochrom> | But even that didn't cause more bottoms than necessary. |
| 04:17:04 | <mauke> | right. it's just less efficient |
| 04:17:19 | <probie> | probably to make it play nicely with other operators under the assumption that one would use `asum` if more than one `(<|>)` was needed |
| 04:18:08 | <Inst> | thanks mauke |
| 04:18:26 | <Inst> | sorry, i'm thinking in terms of the primitive implementation of foldr on lists |
| 04:19:18 | <Inst> | *naive |
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| 04:19:47 | <monochrom> | (>>) is similarly bad. I was a bit disappointed at that too. |
| 04:20:10 | <Inst> | i noticed, but so did GHC team and they have it optimized on O1 and above (iirc) to be equivalent to do semicolon |
| 04:20:43 | <glguy> | don’t miss a chance to write naïve :) |
| 04:21:11 | <Inst> | foldr f z [] = z |
| 04:21:27 | <Inst> | foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs) |
| 04:21:33 | <Inst> | iirc that was in graham, no? |
| 04:21:45 | <mauke> | naïve |
| 04:22:10 | <mauke> | > foldr f z [a,b,c,d] |
| 04:22:12 | <lambdabot> | f a (f b (f c (f d z))) |
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| 04:26:38 | <Inst> | but thanks for the help, i've never used asum before and i think that's the correct solution to griping about infixl |
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| 04:31:54 | <Inst> | I saw someone get around Haskell's lack of f lists with concat [strings...] |
| 04:35:13 | <ski> | "f lists" ? |
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| 04:53:01 | <Inst> | erm, f strings |
| 04:53:34 | <Inst> | i prefer traverse putStr or just otherwise keeping it as a list |
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| 04:54:10 | <Inst> | traverse (foo :: Monad m => a -> m b) list is great |
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| 10:34:35 | <akegalj> | ghc option `-jN` when N is ommited says it builds with number of processors host machine has (https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using.html#ghc-flag--j[%E2%9F%A8n%E2%9F%A9]). If host machine has 1 processor with 4 cores, will N be 1 or 4? |
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| 10:42:25 | <geekosaur> | 4 or possibly 8 (if hyperthreading is enabled) |
| 10:46:29 | <geekosaur> | (hyperthreading is usually disabled because it tends to be a lose) |
| 10:46:55 | <tomsmeding> | (hyperthreading is essentially always enabled on personal computers) |
| 10:47:06 | <tomsmeding> | (it is sometimes disabled on servers) |
| 10:47:53 | <akegalj> | tomsmeding: ty <3 |
| 10:47:59 | <tomsmeding> | akegalj: on linux, $ grep '^processor' /proc/cpuinfo |
| 10:48:31 | <akegalj> | tomsmeding: ok great. I was just confused by core/processor terminology |
| 10:48:44 | <tomsmeding> | for some reason, /proc/cpuinfo uses the same "processor" terminology |
| 10:49:00 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/AqGaf4MW |
| 10:49:08 | <tomsmeding> | akegalj: note that due to hyperthreading, "core" is also an ambiguous word |
| 10:49:42 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: do you have a fancy custom interpreter set in the kernel for .hs files? |
| 10:50:02 | <geekosaur> | well, the real point here is I don't think there's any way in software to determine cores vs. processors unless you have access to the system management bus |
| 10:50:11 | <geekosaur> | no, I pre-compiled that |
| 10:50:18 | tomsmeding | is blind |
| 10:50:26 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: what do you mean with "core" and "processor" here :p |
| 10:51:02 | <geekosaur> | I'm going with what akegalj seemed to mean by them, one physical package (processor) with multiple cores |
| 10:51:31 | <tomsmeding> | is a core-y thing that is split into two units using hyperthreading, 1 or 2 "cores"? |
| 10:52:18 | <geekosaur> | ask linux |
| 10:52:30 | <tomsmeding> | grep '^processor\|^core id' /proc/cpuinfo |
| 10:52:35 | <tomsmeding> | this is known information in software |
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| 10:53:18 | <tomsmeding> | /proc/cpuinfo apparently talks about 1 chip having N "cores", each having possibly multiple "processors" inside |
| 10:53:24 | <tomsmeding> | (the word "chip" is not mentioned) |
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| 10:54:00 | <tomsmeding> | so according to Linux, my intel i9-10900K has 10 cores and 20 processors |
| 10:54:06 | <geekosaur> | btw "custom interpreter" is not difficult to arrange on linux iirc |
| 10:54:20 | <tomsmeding> | iirc it indeed isn't, but I've never seen anyone do it :) |
| 10:54:28 | <tomsmeding> | (and I misread and thought that was `./np.hs` instead of `./np`) |
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| 10:55:23 | <tomsmeding> | CPU manufacturers tend to talk about a chip having "cores", which may have 2 "threads" each |
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| 10:56:04 | <tomsmeding> | GPU manufacturers lie through their teeth |
| 10:56:26 | <tomsmeding> | (partly because the story is just simply more complex on a GPU) |
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| 10:59:28 | <akegalj> | geekosaur: one more stupid question ... I see that `+RTS -N` enables number of cores for ghc app to run with. Does that mean if I want ghc to compile with multiple cores/processors I have to `ghc -j +RTS -N` in order for ghc to run with more threads or is it enough to say `ghc -j` and this assumes compilers rts will use N threads. I wonder what would happen if I did `ghc +RTS -N` ommiting -j |
| 11:00:10 | <tomsmeding> | try it ;) |
| 11:00:13 | <tomsmeding> | -j should be enough |
| 11:00:31 | <akegalj> | tomsmeding: <3 |
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| 11:00:55 | <geekosaur> | I think it will do `setNumCapabilities` itself in that case, yes |
| 11:01:21 | <tomsmeding> | depending on how exactly ghc itself has been compiled, `ghc +RTS -N` without -j will be mostly the same as `ghc` but with a little more overhead from pointless parallel GC |
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| 21:35:29 | <Rembane> | Do you happen to know in which talk Simon Peyton Jones says the words: "Avoid success at all costs"? And do you happen to have the link to that talk? |
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| 21:38:27 | <c_wraith> | I think it's in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmkqocn0oQ But I didn't double-check |
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| 21:45:41 | <Rembane> | c_wraith: It's a good video, but it's not the one I'm thinking of. IIRC it's a bigger talk with slides. |
| 21:45:53 | <Rembane> | c_wraith: ...I'm searching for. |
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| 21:49:15 | <JuanDaugherty> | so spj has the clay feets |
| 21:49:34 | <JuanDaugherty> | even 12 ya hs wasn useless |
| 21:49:58 | <JuanDaugherty> | hyperbole, distortions, ... . |
| 21:50:12 | <int-e> | the quote was supposed to be 'avoid "success at all cost"' |
| 21:50:38 | <JuanDaugherty> | did wait for it had had enuf by 2 minutes |
| 21:50:43 | <JuanDaugherty> | *didn |
| 21:51:10 | <int-e> | There was a Haskell retrospective paper that went into that for a bit and how people often misunderstood the quote. It is ambiguous :P |
| 21:51:11 | <JuanDaugherty> | the quote is dismissable prima facie |
| 21:51:50 | <dolio> | Who is it quoting? |
| 21:52:26 | <JuanDaugherty> | Rembane? |
| 21:52:29 | <Rembane> | int-e: That's the point right, it's a bit like a dad joke or a pun or something like that. :) |
| 21:52:35 | <Rembane> | dolio: Simon Peyton Jones |
| 21:53:10 | <Rembane> | Ha! I think I found it! https://youtu.be/re96UgMk6GQ?t=1387&si=xit96ICMktdWMzOD |
| 21:53:16 | <Rembane> | It could be in other places too. |
| 21:53:49 | <dolio> | From when? It's definitely older than 7 years. |
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| 21:54:15 | <monochrom> | Around 2000 I already heard it. |
| 21:56:11 | <Rembane> | Oh. Now that's interesting. Because that talk is the oldest place where I've found the quote. |
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| 21:57:11 | <EvanR> | 7 years ago was 2017? xD |
| 21:57:17 | <JuanDaugherty> | yeah |
| 21:57:35 | <monochrom> | > 2024-7 |
| 21:57:37 | <lambdabot> | 2017 |
| 21:57:55 | <EvanR> | I heard it on IRC back in 2009 I think |
| 21:58:35 | <JuanDaugherty> | the last linked talk was in '17 |
| 21:58:41 | <Zer000> | Man I am having the weirdest out of memory issue: this line runs out of memory unless I change n from 100,000 to 10,000: let potentialRoots = [firstRootBytenr - (n * rootSpacing), firstRootBytenr - ((n - 1) * rootSpacing), firstRootBytenr] |
| 21:58:49 | <Zer000> | everything is a Word64 |
| 21:59:19 | <mauke> | I bet it's not this line |
| 21:59:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Youre probably missing a strictness annotation somewhere |
| 21:59:33 | <Zer000> | and my code isn't even right, it's building a list with three things in it, but I wanted to use the [n1, n2...n] syntax |
| 21:59:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But we need way more context to actually see whats up |
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| 22:00:20 | <Zer000> | mauke, oh so it's how my list gets used? |
| 22:01:08 | <Zer000> | You're probably right... maybe i should profile my program then |
| 22:02:22 | <int-e> | hmmm https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2009-April/021173.html references the motto :P |
| 22:02:30 | <Rembane> | int-e: Good stuff! :D |
| 22:02:51 | <c_wraith> | Zer000: note that that line creates a list that's only three elements long. did you want [x, y .. z] instead? |
| 22:03:43 | <mauke> | <Zer000> and my code isn't even right, it's building a list with three things in it, but I wanted to use the [n1, n2...n] syntax |
| 22:03:51 | <c_wraith> | oh, whoops |
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| 22:04:59 | <Zer000> | magic_rb are you replying to me from matrix? I got confused by the briding for a second |
| 22:05:26 | <Zer000> | you guys should use the matrix appservices bridge IMO it's way better but slightly more annoying to set up |
| 22:05:39 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Zer000 yes is it showing up weirdly on the irc side? |
| 22:05:50 | <Zer000> | It looks like someone is replying to you |
| 22:06:10 | <int-e> | Tge motto appears in these slides from 2003. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/wearing-hair-shirt-retrospective-haskell-2003/ (via https://es.costashine-autospa.com/wg-cgi/marc.info/?l=haskell-cafe&m=120491982137885&w=2 ) |
| 22:06:10 | <Zer000> | Like this: haskellbridge: <magic_rb> Zer000 yes is it showing up weirdly on the irc side? |
| 22:06:49 | <int-e> | hmm, that second link is suspicious, should be https://marc.info/?l=haskell-cafe&m=120491982137885&w=2 |
| 22:07:21 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Zer000 ah, i should finally get around to using heisenbridge to interact with this room, works much better in my experience |
| 22:08:02 | <Rembane> | int-e: This gets even better! Thank you! |
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| 22:11:06 | <int-e> | That timing feels about right to me; my memory isn't good enough to say whether the motto was conceived then or has an earlier origin. |
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| 22:11:20 | <monochrom> | Haha "gives too much power to implementers?" came true. |
| 22:12:39 | <Rembane> | The most powerful implementers! |
| 22:12:40 | <int-e> | hugs was still alive in 2003 |
| 22:13:26 | <int-e> | Heck we had a cambric explosion of Haskell compilers for a while. Darwin killed them all or something. |
| 22:14:48 | <Rembane> | Too few lovely islands for them to thrive? |
| 22:14:55 | EvanR | sues GHC for being a monopoly |
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| 22:16:12 | <int-e> | (Realistically none of them had much staying power, and people who would've implemented Haskell around 2000 are now implementing new languages instead. A trend that maybe started with Clean? I don't really know, but it's an early example that I remember.) |
| 22:16:48 | <Rembane> | That seems reasonable. And I think it's better for the world to have more languages rather than having more implementations of Haskell. |
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| 22:18:53 | <JuanDaugherty> | the hybrids thrived in niches, curry e.g. |
| 22:19:58 | <JuanDaugherty> | u need a uni with a renewable labor pool |
| 22:20:44 | <JuanDaugherty> | and not just some guy in a dept |
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| 23:03:43 | <c_wraith> | can you allow-newer a native dependency? |
| 23:04:55 | <c_wraith> | the cairo package seems to depend on librsvg-2.0 < 2.51 and debian stable currently packages 2.54 |
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| 23:05:34 | <c_wraith> | err. the svgcairo package. |
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| 23:06:17 | <c_wraith> | Huh. I suppose I could have just tried. It seems to be trying to build now, at least. |
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| 23:09:11 | <c_wraith> | didn't actually work. Seems it's not passing correct flags to pkg-config. |
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| 23:53:13 | Axma52822 | is now known as Axman6 |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-09-18.