Logs on 2024-09-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:40:58 | <Inst> | did you guys meet Opaque yet? |
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| 00:41:36 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1001.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.Base.html |
| 00:41:48 | <Inst> | data Opaque = forall a. O a |
| 00:42:54 | <Inst> | you can't do anything with it, right? |
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| 00:54:12 | <probie> | You can `unsafeCoerce` it back to the original type |
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| 01:06:45 | <int-e> | I've met GHC.Exts.Heap.Box which is vaguely related. Opaque looks... safer. |
| 01:14:49 | <geekosaur> | I don't think that heap box is intended to be used for anything but analyzing heap boxes… |
| 01:15:08 | <geekosaur> | if you try to use it for anything else, you get to keep the pieces |
| 01:16:05 | <geekosaur> | (you should count yourself lucky it's even possible to introspect the heap from Haskell) |
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| 01:55:32 | <Axman6> | I think the linear prelude has something for using Box for safe mutable data structures |
| 01:55:38 | <int-e> | geekosaur: Its heap representation is exactly the same as that of Opaque. But the type is more dangerous; data Box = Box Any, where type Any = forall a. a. So if you have a non-bottom value in a Box, it comes with `unsafeCoerce` preapplied. |
| 01:56:02 | <Axman6> | https://github.com/tweag/linear-base/blob/master/examples/Foreign/Heap.hs |
| 01:56:07 | <Axman6> | s/prelude/base |
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| 02:26:52 | <Lears> | Axman6: That's a rather different Box: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear-base-0.4.0/docs/src/Foreign.Marshal.Pure.Internal.html#Box |
| 02:28:42 | <Lears> | int-e: You mean Any ~= exists a. a? It's true that values have to be unsafely coerced /into/ a `Box`, but that's not dangerous until you try to unsafely coerce them out. |
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| 04:00:49 | <feetwind> | nix q: i want to just build tests and not run them, anyone know how? |
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| 04:08:18 | <geekosaur> | tritlo, @grayjay on github points out that --constraint='any.happy < 2' should work, and a quick test here indicates it seems to |
| 04:09:15 | <geekosaur> | that said, I don't think that prropagates, so cabal.project.local would still be needed if building a dependent of haskell-lib-parser |
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| 09:16:34 | <eugenrh> | Hi, I couldn't find Haskell 2010 report in epub format, so I want to try using pandoc to convert it using its html version. But I couldn't find any html zip of it.. yet. Where can I find a html archive of the report? |
| 09:17:39 | <mari-estel> | huh isn't there a PDF version available? |
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| 09:18:17 | <eugenrh> | pandoc says it can't convert from pdf |
| 09:18:37 | <mari-estel> | not what i meant |
| 09:18:56 | <arahael> | eugenrh: PDF usually doesn't have reflow support, which is what people usually want if they're asking for epub. |
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| 09:19:40 | <mari-estel> | yeah of course, but considering the age of the document i thought it could be an acceptable compromise |
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| 09:20:29 | <mari-estel> | most epub readers are somewhat comfy also for PDFs |
| 09:20:40 | <opqdonut> | https://github.com/haskell/haskell-report does this help? |
| 09:21:14 | <eugenrh> | there is just the source, not the html files.. No releases... |
| 09:21:55 | <Lears> | Perhaps `wget -r https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/` would do? |
| 09:22:56 | <mari-estel> | from the source opqdonut linked you can generate the HTML. Seems latek and pandoc understands that |
| 09:23:19 | <eugenrh> | yes, before web scaping I thought about asking for an archive... maybe I've missed some place when looking |
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| 09:24:48 | <eugenrh> | I;m only using a small device right now and can't install tex & frineds to generate from source |
| 09:25:17 | <mari-estel> | maybe pandoc can translate the tek directly |
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| 09:59:58 | <tomsmeding> | yeah wget seems like the way to go :p |
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| 10:00:45 | <eugenrh> | I've managed to used wget.. now trying to make an epub.. |
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| 10:26:03 | <eugenrh> | no, this small and old ereader doesn't render properly the htmls and probably any epub based on it. I think I'll try to give the pdf another chance by finding a way to crop its huge margins, first.. |
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| 10:46:00 | <eugenrh> | ( I've used the online tool croppdf.com . Easy and good. do NOT know if it's safe, too ) |
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| 11:08:04 | <Inst> | come to think of it, does >>= leak? |
| 11:08:24 | <Inst> | term >>= foo >>= bar starts stacking space |
| 11:08:30 | <Inst> | tbh it can't be avoided due to laziness |
| 11:12:34 | <Inst> | well, not really, but whereas >> can be optimized, it's harder to optimize a >>= chain |
| 11:13:01 | <Inst> | . and >=> also has the wrong fixity, i think, but you can't really fix it without losing laziness |
| 11:14:53 | <Inst> | or am i wrong here? |
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| 13:00:21 | <kuribas> | Inst: which instance? |
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| 13:30:59 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: _does_ (>>=) leak? |
| 13:31:21 | <tomsmeding> | `a >>= b >>= c` is exceedingly rare |
| 13:31:36 | <tomsmeding> | in practice it's more like `a >>= \x -> b >>= \y -> c`, which is associated perfectly well |
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| 13:32:33 | <tomsmeding> | the fixity of (.) and (>=>) only influences the nesting order of manually written chains of (.) or (>=>), which are by construction bounded length (your source file is not infinitely long) and GHC can see all of them together |
| 13:33:02 | <tomsmeding> | hence, at least for (.), GHC will be able to beta-reduce the (.) chain very easily |
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| 13:33:12 | <tomsmeding> | (for (>=>) that depends on the monad instance) |
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| 15:37:15 | <monochrom> | "Does >>= leak?" is such a hyperbole. |
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| 15:38:32 | <monochrom> | Do people still use the dark pattern of provocative tactics and great exaggerations to get attention? |
| 15:39:20 | <geekosaur> | just look at the US elections |
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| 15:39:58 | <monochrom> | Heh yeah but I mean in #haskell where challenging the channel has been banned for decades. |
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| 15:44:04 | <glguy> | happy-2.0.1 fixed the indentation change that broke GHC in happy-2.0 |
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| 15:46:09 | <geekosaur> | ++ |
| 15:46:37 | <geekosaur> | haven't gotten that far in my inbox yet but I saw some discussion from that ticket |
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| 15:52:15 | <mauke> | https://github.com/haskell/happy/issues/303 |
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| 15:59:54 | <weary-traveler> | what's "Does >>= leak"? |
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| 16:03:49 | <monochrom> | Exactly. |
| 16:06:11 | <weary-traveler> | monochrom: is that a reference to some discussion elsewhere? or simply earlier in the channel (haven't looked at the logs) |
| 16:06:51 | <monochrom> | Yeah much earlier. 5 hours ago. |
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| 16:26:57 | <weary-traveler> | i see. someone needs to go read the freer paper. |
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| 17:28:02 | <sm> | @where+ FDA https://www.manning.com/books/functional-design-and-architecture Functional Design and Architecture, Granin 2024 |
| 17:28:03 | <lambdabot> | I will remember. |
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| 18:14:02 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, how do you parse a string like '-43a' with megaparse or any parser combinator? -43a is a valid "symbol name" but not a valid number. If parse symbols first that's fine but then I will accidentally parse valid numbers as symbol too |
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| 18:15:44 | <geekosaur> | most parsers including combinator-based ones use a "maximal munch" rule, so if you parse as a number it should fail at the 'a' |
| 18:16:36 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: hmm it will, but it uses 'a' as a terminator an returns -43 as a number |
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| 18:17:07 | <geekosaur> | that's usually handled by the grammar: if 'a' isn't valid following the number then you get a parse error |
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| 18:17:45 | <mauke> | > let a = -1 in (+) 43a |
| 18:17:46 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 18:18:34 | <mauke> | lxsameer: are you parsing a lisp? |
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| 18:19:26 | <lxsameer> | mauke: yupe |
| 18:20:22 | <geekosaur> | yes, what language you're parsing matters too. gcc parses character suffixes after numbers and reports errors if the suffix(es) aren't valid ("error: invalid suffix "a" on integer constant") |
| 18:20:36 | <geekosaur> | because C supports things like 1L, 1ULL, etc. |
| 18:20:41 | <mauke> | aren't numbers just a type of symbol, syntactically? |
| 18:20:57 | <lxsameer> | mauke: technically yes. |
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| 18:21:16 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: i'm in charge of the lang, so I can change the grammar if I want to |
| 18:21:55 | <lxsameer> | mauke: are you suggesting to parse them as symbol and the run another number parser on the symbol ? |
| 18:22:37 | <mauke> | yeah, basically |
| 18:22:57 | <mauke> | if the symbol name cleanly converts to a number, it is a number |
| 18:23:00 | <lxsameer> | mauke: hmmm cool, thank you. I'll give it a shot |
| 18:23:15 | <lxsameer> | mauke: yeah, that makes it much easier |
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| 22:54:16 | <Inst> | monochrom: |
| 22:54:23 | <Inst> | sorry, here's how to show the behavior |
| 22:54:26 | <Inst> | import Debug.Trace |
| 22:55:37 | <Inst> | x <|>> y = traceWith (\u -> show u <> " was evaluated on the left") x <|> y |
| 22:55:46 | <Inst> | Just 3 <|>> Nothing <|>> Nothing |
| 22:56:30 | <Inst> | also, I just discovered you can declare operators in function arguments |
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| 23:03:29 | <Inst> | > with (****) a b = a **** b |
| 23:03:31 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:17: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
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| 23:03:54 | <Inst> | well, it works in 9.10 ghci :( |
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| 23:09:00 | <Inst> | tomsmeding: you CAN stylistically decide to use >>= to make the data flow more obvious, afaik everyone decided to just write functional python with do and <- instead |
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| 23:09:52 | <monochrom> | do-notation still desugars to right-associative uses of >>= |
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| 23:12:55 | <monochrom> | It is fair to say that infixr is better for >>, <|>, >=> in most use cases, and the standard library made the wrong choice. |
| 23:13:07 | <monochrom> | But this is getting blown out of proportion. |
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| 23:18:07 | <monochrom> | Not to mention that "foo <|> (bar <|> x)" is not that hard to write if you find the infixl unsatisfactory. |
| 23:18:38 | <Inst> | ehhh, just pointing out infelicities, it's not a big deal tbh |
| 23:18:47 | <Inst> | it's a good reason not to abuse >>= and =<< for golfing |
| 23:19:01 | <monochrom> | "Does >>= leak?" is not making a big fuzz? |
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| 23:19:52 | <Inst> | i suppose i should apologize for "baby's first exposure to thinking space and spaceleaks with laziness", but it would do no good |
| 23:20:27 | <Inst> | that said, just out of curiosity, when do you introduce Debug.Trace, monochrom? |
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| 23:25:18 | <monochrom> | Being novice in technical matters is not the issue I'm complaining about. |
| 23:25:57 | <monochrom> | The dark pattern of always going hyperbole is. |
| 23:26:35 | <Inst> | criticism acknowledged |
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| 23:50:07 | <Inst> | monochrom: I should have been more careful in wording and asked whether >>= leaks in direct use, i'm still pouring over GHC core output to check whether or not it does on O2 or higher optimizations |
| 23:50:23 | <Inst> | and yeah i'm aware of the () desugaring of do |
| 23:52:17 | <Inst> | the other realistic issue is, that from what i've seen, thinking lazily isn't prioritized in most haskell books i've seen, and there's been commercial users of haskell that've dropped Haskell because they weren't proficient in laziness |
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| 23:58:10 | <Inst> | also, another question |
| 23:58:36 | <Inst> | actually, forget it, maybe another time |
All times are in UTC on 2024-09-20.