Logs on 2024-09-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 10:37:13 | <sprout> | > f (a, b) = (f a, f b) |
| 10:37:15 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:10: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 10:37:33 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@77.242.116.146) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 10:37:36 | <sprout> | > \f (a, b) -> (f a, f b) |
| 10:37:38 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 10:37:38 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Typeable t0) |
| 10:37:39 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘show_M26583726709348514278’ |
| 10:38:10 | <ski> | @type \f (a,b) -> (f a,f b) |
| 10:38:11 | <lambdabot> | (t -> b) -> (t, t) -> (b, b) |
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| 11:55:22 | <tomsmeding> | @type \f -> bimap f f |
| 11:55:23 | <lambdabot> | Bifunctor p => (a -> d) -> p a a -> p d d |
| 11:56:51 | <tomsmeding> | @type join bimap |
| 11:56:52 | <lambdabot> | Bifunctor p => (c -> d) -> p c c -> p d d |
| 11:57:55 | <Rembane> | @type \f -> (f *** f) |
| 11:57:56 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b' c' -> a (b', b') (c', c') |
| 11:58:00 | <Rembane> | :D |
| 11:58:02 | <Rembane> | Sorry |
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| 11:58:46 | <tomsmeding> | @type join (***) |
| 11:58:47 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b' c' -> a (b', b') (c', c') |
| 11:59:24 | <Rembane> | Neat! |
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| 14:30:31 | <Athas> | Today I taught a lecture on free monads. I wonder if the students got any of it. |
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| 14:36:42 | <raehik> | I have two Words (say Word64). How can I efficiently find the index of the first pair of bytes that don't match? |
| 14:37:19 | <raehik> | My intuition says to XOR the Words, then find the leftmost (or rightmost depending on endianness) null byte, for which there's an efficient algorithm out there |
| 14:37:35 | <Athas> | raehik: for efficiency, it is probably best to have a kind of unrolled loop that compares all the eight byte pairs. |
| 14:37:36 | <raehik> | I'm a little hesitant because I can't find any examples out there |
| 14:38:29 | <Athas> | Or do the XOR comparison first, then extract the eight bytes. |
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| 14:39:11 | <raehik> | Athas: I'm trying to avoid single byte operations since they're inefficient (for my Word64) |
| 14:39:19 | <raehik> | what do you mean "extract the eight bytes"? |
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| 14:44:05 | <Athas> | Well, if you want to avoid single byte operations, then it won't apply anyway. |
| 14:44:19 | <raehik> | what won't apply? |
| 14:45:05 | <raehik> | oh I think I see, extract those pairs and do some checks as in your earlier msg |
| 14:45:35 | <glguy> | after you xor you'd want to find the number of leading zeros and then turn that into an index (divide it by 8) |
| 14:45:55 | <c_wraith> | Data.Bits has countLeadingZeroes |
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| 14:49:38 | <raehik> | ahhh that's what I want glguy , c_wraith ! thanks |
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| 14:50:31 | <raehik> | also, any others experiencing hoogle.haskell.org issues? |
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| 15:02:49 | <tomsmeding> | raehik: also see: everything from here to the bottom of the page https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2024/09/23?id=1363304#trid1363304 |
| 15:02:51 | <tomsmeding> | ;) |
| 15:03:13 | <tomsmeding> | probie had some suggestions |
| 15:03:24 | <tomsmeding> | and yes, hoogle is very slow recently |
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| 15:06:18 | <raehik> | tomsmeding: thx :o :D |
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| 16:09:34 | <raehik> | re: idx of first non-match byte: > idxFail = ctz (wordExpect `xor` wordActual) `unsafeShiftR` 3 |
| 16:10:09 | <raehik> | then to obtain the byte itself, > (wordActual `unsafeShiftR` (idxFail*8)) .&. 0xFF |
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| 16:14:03 | <raehik> | a bit longwinded but it lets me chunk literal parsing, while still performing fine-grained "which character failed" error handling |
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| 17:59:08 | <[exa]> | Athas: what did you use as examples btw? |
| 17:59:26 | <[exa]> | btw hoogle seems very down recently |
| 17:59:55 | <raehik> | for me too ;_; |
| 18:03:01 | <geekosaur> | https://hoogle.mangoiv.com makes a good alternative, as does stackage's hoogle |
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| 18:07:34 | <Athas> | [exa]: these ones: https://diku-dk.github.io/ap-notes/chapter_4.html |
| 18:07:42 | <Athas> | Important examples were memoisation and async. |
| 18:07:49 | <Athas> | And logging I guess. |
| 18:07:52 | <Athas> | Nothing very fancy. |
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| 18:12:18 | <ski> | "This is an instance of "\higher-rank polymorphism\", where we abstract not over types , but type constructors ." -- no, this is just a higher-order type, it's not higher-rank at all |
| 18:12:52 | <Athas> | That's right, that's a typo. |
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| 18:14:20 | <[exa]> | Athas: o nice |
| 18:14:31 | <ski> | s/e by itself/f by itself/ |
| 18:15:55 | <[exa]> | Athas: the fibs memo example is super nice |
| 18:16:15 | <ski> | (if you think of `Functor' as a dictionary data type, then its data constructor would be higher-rank, yes. also, operations on higher-order data types would often be higher-rank (just as operations on parameterized data types would often be polymorphic, but that data type is still not itself polymorphic)) |
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| 18:21:10 | <[exa]> | Athas: I was explaining these once and kinda started with "join without actual join" and then I was mocking IO ("for the unit tests, if you'd ever want to do that") which went pretty well, I think people saw that as a very annoying thing in general so some relief was welcome |
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| 18:33:01 | <Athas> | [exa]: my initial explanatio for why this was interesting was also as a more principled form of mocking. I just hope the students are sufficiently versed in software engineering to grasp that concept. Sadly, I doubt it. |
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| 18:42:42 | <[exa]> | Athas: well, I guess that if anyone wanted to learn, they managed. :) |
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| 19:53:58 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> is there an instance of cryptographic message-passing that is not modeled by: a message, a sender, a receiver, a channel, an encryption key, and a decryption key? |
| 19:59:58 | <monochrom> | Does /dev/null count? >:) |
| 20:00:11 | <monochrom> | "The data sink model" |
| 20:00:23 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> monochrom: will read up on that, ty |
| 20:00:35 | <geekosaur> | *snicker* |
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| 20:04:11 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya: stuff with ephemeral keys (DH-like) doesn't have exact enc/dec keys, and various groupy protocols get pretty wild in there (see partial homomorphic encryption) |
| 20:04:39 | <monochrom> | Don't laugh, in education (and in business before they went paperless), secure destruction of exam papers is a thing to protect student privacy and avoid exam question leaks. Profs can put past exam papers into a locked box at the department; some company comes periodically to pick them up and shred them before sending to recycling. |
| 20:04:41 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> [exa]: ty for recs! |
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| 20:05:27 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya btw sounded a bit like an XYZ question, any reason why you'd need such a messaging protocol? |
| 20:06:08 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> am just thinking about modeling security in a distributed system |
| 20:06:12 | <[exa]> | monochrom: oh man |
| 20:06:27 | <[exa]> | monochrom: we got exact protocol on retaining and then destroying the paper exams |
| 20:06:40 | <[exa]> | there are folks who have whole cabinets of this stuff |
| 20:07:27 | <[exa]> | thirdofmay18081814goya: ah so. good luck there. :D |
| 20:07:40 | <[exa]> | (spoiler: secure distributed systems kinda emerge from doing everything right locally) |
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| 20:22:26 | <monochrom> | There is also an oxymoron in "messaging but no message no sender no receiver". It's why I thought of /dev/null instinctly. |
| 20:23:19 | <monochrom> | If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, is it still a messaging system? >:) |
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| 20:34:10 | <EvanR> | a tree with no defined operations |
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| 20:38:25 | <[exa]> | stuff that happened in RealWorld |
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| 20:56:46 | <EvanR> | stays in RealWorld |
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| 21:02:07 | <geekosaur> | depends on whether you count the microbiome >.> |
| 21:02:34 | <monochrom> | Haha didn't think of that. :) |
| 21:02:47 | <Rembane> | Do microbiome hear? |
| 21:03:03 | <geekosaur> | as vibration, yes |
| 21:03:09 | <monochrom> | They certainly have multitudes of messaging systems. :) |
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| 21:05:07 | <Rembane> | Oh. Sweet! :D |
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| 21:07:10 | <EvanR> | the tree falling event's influence propagates out at the speed of light exerting causal influence on everything in the future light cone |
| 21:07:55 | <EvanR> | so you really have to have a good alibi to claim "no one heard it" |
| 21:08:13 | <monochrom> | I was in a Faraday cage. |
| 21:08:39 | <EvanR> | I was in the LIGO detector |
| 21:08:54 | <EvanR> | it takes a collision of black holes to get through into there |
| 21:09:06 | <Rembane> | I slept, was drunk, and wasn't even there. It was his fault! |
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| 21:09:24 | <monochrom> | I was in a quantum computer, so nothing from the outside entangled with me. |
| 21:09:45 | <EvanR> | are you kidding, those things are full of wormholes |
| 21:10:05 | <monochrom> | Yeah but it was strictly an intranet. |
| 21:10:30 | <monochrom> | I entangled with myself. Are you happy now? >:) |
| 21:12:23 | <EvanR> | gross |
| 21:12:56 | <Rembane> | Do you have iptables installed on your quantum computer? |
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| 21:14:39 | <darkling> | No need. You just have some observer give it a really hard stare every so often. |
| 21:15:23 | <Rembane> | So everything collapses? |
| 21:15:41 | <darkling> | It's the only way to be sure. |
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| 21:17:44 | <Rembane> | Safety first! |
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| 23:45:21 | <raehik> | Is there a way to force a type variable to be inferred, in a `data` declaration? |
| 23:45:59 | <raehik> | I have `data Magic (a :: k) = Magic`, which is fine, but `:t Magic` gives `Magic :: forall k (a :: k). Magic a` |
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| 23:47:18 | <raehik> | Alternatively, can I do what I want with a pattern synonym? |
| 23:47:33 | <geekosaur> | I'm not even sure what you want |
| 23:47:35 | <Lears> | What /do/ you want, though? |
| 23:47:50 | <geekosaur> | ^5 |
| 23:48:14 | <raehik> | I want `Magic :: forall {k} (a :: k). Magic a` |
| 23:48:36 | <raehik> | I want to force `k` to be inferred (because for my uses it will be) |
| 23:48:45 | <Lears> | Perhaps GADTSyntax will allow it? |
| 23:49:39 | <raehik> | hmm not sure how I would write it with GADT syntax (I don't use them much) |
| 23:50:11 | <Lears> | `data Magic a where Magic :: forall {k} (a :: k). Magic a` |
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| 23:50:44 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/type_applications.html#manually-defining-inferred-variables which confirms it's only supported with GADTSyntax |
| 23:52:06 | <geekosaur> | and gives an example thereof |
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| 23:53:38 | <raehik> | thank you very much Lears , geekosaur ! I simply never knew that and didn't find it with my googling |
| 23:54:46 | <geekosaur> | it is kinda unfortunate that this isn't what one normally thinks of with "inferred" (type inference being the usual thing) |
| 23:55:20 | <raehik> | the pattern synonym worked as well, I didn't know they were fine with foralls |
| 23:55:40 | <geekosaur> | I personally think more of "visibility" than "inference" here |
| 23:55:41 | <raehik> | but the GADT is perfect |
| 23:55:57 | <raehik> | geekosaur: Yeah, agreed. I went by the name in the docs |
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