Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-09-25 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:11:11 <EvanR> 1 = abb⁻¹a⁻¹ (obviously)
01:11:14 <EvanR> (ab)⁻¹ = b⁻¹a⁻¹
01:11:17 <EvanR> QED
01:11:36 <EvanR> this is a theorem about groups, but does it only work for groups?
01:11:49 <EvanR> i.e. is group laws too specific
01:16:39 <Lears> Groups are pretty general; they only have a few laws. You're already using identity, invertibility and associativity---that's all of them. I suppose you could weaken associativity to `(w * x) * (y * z) = w * ((x * y) * z)`, but I doubt that gives you anything of interest.
01:17:05 <monochrom> You have used identity, inverse, associativity. So I say yes, you pretty much need a group.
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01:19:08 <Lears> Ah, no; with identity that's not even a weakening: a * (b * c) = (1 * a) * (b * c) = 1 * ((a * b) * c) = (a * b) * c
01:20:12 <EvanR> that's cool
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01:26:42 <EvanR> that formula makes way more sense now, ignoring the mathematical proof of it, after thinking of it like invertible functions. If you want to invert "do b, then do a to the product of that", you have to first undo a then undo b
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01:27:53 <EvanR> waaaaaaaaait
01:28:00 <EvanR> I know how it's too specific
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01:28:23 <EvanR> a group is like a groupoid where all the objects are the same
01:28:36 <monochrom> Right, without commutativity, the undo of "put on socks, put on shoes" is not "take off socks, take off shoes".
01:28:37 <EvanR> shouldn't the same theorem apply to groupoids
01:29:33 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> It does tho
01:29:46 <EvanR> \o/
01:30:11 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The socks example was an example of a groupoid rather than a group
01:30:33 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Unless you are used to putting socks on top of your shoes
01:30:40 <monochrom> :(
01:30:42 <EvanR> lol
01:30:47 <monochrom> OK fine! :)
01:31:02 <monochrom> I think some people do that.
01:31:22 <EvanR> not even people who wear sandals and socks do that
01:31:32 <monochrom> mom used to advise "it's winter, put on two pants". (I declined.)
01:31:43 <EvanR> two pants
01:31:50 <EvanR> left leg and right leg
01:31:55 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> You could use two shirts as an example instead
01:32:01 geekosaur wonders where overshoes fit here 😛
01:32:37 <monochrom> I don't suppose you would put on two layers of overshoes?
01:33:09 <monochrom> The "VHS, UHS, HD, UHD, VVVVUUUUHD" progression applies.
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01:33:57 <EvanR> highspeed CMOS
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01:34:05 <monochrom> I mean, if you start having two layers of overshoes, the outer layer would have to be called something like "ultrashoes" or something ridiculous and soon you will run out of superlatives.
01:34:27 <EvanR> that's why the layers are indexed by an ordinal
01:34:54 <geekosaur> overshoe_{\omega}
01:35:32 <monochrom> haha
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01:36:16 <monochrom> Err, s/HS/HF/ # VHF, UHF
01:37:09 <geekosaur> that made perfect sense until they figured out how to generate and control microwave frequencies
01:37:41 <geekosaur> then they just gave up and switched to Greek suffixes
01:37:46 <geekosaur> err, prefixes
01:38:45 <EvanR> microwaves, nanowaves, picowaves
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01:39:47 <geekosaur> I think you're up to X-rays before you need picowaves? maybe even soft gammas
01:39:56 geekosaur is too tired to work out the math
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01:47:44 <c_wraith> according to wikipedia, that's in the gamma range
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01:50:22 <EvanR> HULK SMASH
01:51:05 <geekosaur> remember how high that dial got turneed up, those might have been femtos
01:51:16 <c_wraith> I have a friend who has both physics training and reads a lot of comics. He claims that Hulks powers come from GAMMA rays, not gamma rays. Whatever that capitalization means.
01:51:38 <geekosaur> beats me
01:52:45 <EvanR> lol
01:53:06 <EvanR> it means he's nucular
01:54:13 <monochrom> Would it also be Ray with upper R?
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01:54:30 <c_wraith> No, Ray claims to have been somewhere else at the time
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02:08:41 <monochrom> haha
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05:22:32 <jle`> i'm going to be traveling to tokyo shortly, anyone know if there is any haskell happenings going on these days over there?
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06:48:17 <bailsman> Is any monoid in the category of endofunctors necessarily a monad?
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07:13:31 <Inst> huh
07:13:37 <Inst> Debug.Trace can be so cute
07:14:09 <Inst> foo (x:xs) = traceShowId x + traceShow (show xs) (foo xs)
07:14:14 <Inst> foo [] = 0
07:14:26 <tomsmeding> bailsman: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/monad#definition seems to claim that yes, it is
07:16:20 <c_wraith> Inst: I wouldn't do it that way. The order of evaluation of the arguments to (+) is indeterminate
07:17:08 <Inst> I'm just trying to figure out what "baby's first recursion" would look like with debug.trace
07:17:50 <c_wraith> foo (x:xs) | traceShow (x, xs) False = undefined | otherwise = x + foo xs
07:18:17 <c_wraith> lean on specified evaluation order to get traced output in a specified order
07:18:31 <c_wraith> (guards are always checked top to bottom)
07:19:14 <Inst> you could use let / where with bang patterns for it
07:19:23 <haskellbridge> <sm> The great thing about trace is you can stick it almost anywhere and you'll still get some insight
07:19:41 <Inst> i'm just wondering, does anyone actually introduce Debug.Trace early?
07:20:02 <Inst> what I'm trying to get is the standard recursion diagram generated by Debug.Trace
07:20:02 <haskellbridge> <sm> I think it should be taught early
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07:22:21 <haskellbridge> <sm> insert a trace everywhere, see what you get, remove the excess ones
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07:26:28 <Inst> did trace get reworked recently?
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07:28:26 <Inst> ehhh, eventlog etc have been here forever
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07:34:21 <geekosaur> there are some shortcomings: you're forcing `xs` earlier than the recursion without the `traceShow` might
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07:40:03 <Inst> yeah i guess i'm inexperienced in using Debug.Trace; I've only ever used traceShowId
07:40:18 <Inst> it'd actually be pretty fun to have a breakpoint function in Debug.Trace, though
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07:40:56 <Inst> *action
07:44:59 <geekosaur> what would it do in compiled code?
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07:46:52 <Inst> pause action until keypress
07:47:10 <geekosaur> how does that interact with multiple threads?
07:48:00 <Inst> it wouldn't, and the implementation I'm thinking of right now would bug out if stdin had a buffer :(
07:48:05 <geekosaur> what happens if the user is typing into the program when it fires?
07:49:04 <Lears> @hackage breakpoint
07:49:05 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/breakpoint
07:49:51 <geekosaur> (there are ways around the buffer issue, at least on POSIX. look up `/dev/tty`)
07:50:52 <geekosaur> but in the end there's at most one keyboard and trying to use it for more than one thing at the same time always ends poorly
07:50:52 <Inst> i mean you can imagine people learning Debug.Trace on day one, but the alternatives would either need packages or unsafePerformIO on day 1 :(
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07:54:00 <lortabac> thanks Lears, I didn't know this package
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07:54:37 <lortabac> maybe not 100% reliable but it still looks very useful
07:55:05 <Inst> yeah, thanks @ Learss as well
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07:58:25 <geekosaur> there's also https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/libraries/base-4.20.0.0-1f57/GHC-Exts.html#g:17 whoich iirc is ignored in compiled code and acts as if you (conditionally) set a breakpoint in ghci
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08:01:39 <geekosaur> (source says neither one does anything but iirc it's the codegen that has to actually implement it?)
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08:54:13 <cheater> don't you just hate it when you're reading haskell code and it's just meme code
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09:01:02 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: `breakpoint` doesn't seem to do anything for me either in compiled or in interpreted mode
09:01:36 <tomsmeding> compiling in profiling mode doesn't change anything (I guess it was worth a try)
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09:17:33 <Inst> grrr, how do you write to stdin?
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09:23:06 <mauke> ? ??
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09:26:04 <sm> I saw the breakpoint package work once
09:26:47 <sm> I mean, it worked when I tried it a while back
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09:53:08 <tomsmeding> Inst: stdin is an input channel
09:53:15 <tomsmeding> you don't write to it, you read from it
09:53:46 <tomsmeding> sm: the 'breakpoint' package seems to be a GHC plugin, there's also a suggestively named function at GHC.Exts.breakpoint
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10:10:43 <Inst> tomsmeding: I'm trying to extract the buffer and replace it on use.
10:11:07 <tomsmeding> that sounds like a bad ide
10:11:09 <tomsmeding> *idea
10:11:41 <Inst> Handle__ isn't that bad, tbh, it's mostly IORefs and MVars
10:13:05 <Inst> but w/e, I guess the essence of today's rant is Debug.Trace is awesome and I should use it more
10:14:00 <tomsmeding> beware of relying on its behaviour for "production" code though
10:14:09 <tomsmeding> (whatever "production" means in your context)
10:14:12 <Inst> i think it says so in the name?
10:14:21 <tomsmeding> it's a debugging tool -- yes it says so in the name
10:14:27 <tomsmeding> it's an awesome debugging tool
10:14:59 <tomsmeding> but it can be tempting to "forget" that the output that you're using very effectively is actually coming from trace calls
10:15:12 <Inst> yeah, i had a phantom bug with someone's library as a consequence :(
10:15:15 <tomsmeding> that's not a situation you really want to be in
10:16:14 <Inst> i'm just trying to get to the stage where i'm comfortable enough with Debug.Trace so that it can demonstrate recursion, I just don't think in terms of Debug.Trace for that
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10:22:44 <ski> @quote refreshing.desert
10:22:44 <lambdabot> chromatic says: My productivity increased when Autrijus told me about Haskell's trace function. He called it a refreshing desert in the oasis of referential transparency.
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10:40:48 <Inst> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0cihXTeH
10:41:30 <Inst> whoops, it's a bug :(
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10:42:25 <ski> (`trace` ())
10:43:12 <Inst> needs parens
10:43:16 <Inst> i mean in the output
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13:00:01 <haskellbridge> <carbolymer`> in this command: "cabal build all --enable-tests -j --ghc-option=-j4", the "--ghc-option=j4" seems redundant? (machine has 4 cores)
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13:02:55 <haskellbridge> <carbolymer`> that --ghc-option if for the building ghc, or the runtime of the produced binary?
13:03:18 <haskellbridge> <carbolymer`> -with-rtsopts would be for runtime I guess
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13:21:47 <haskellbridge> <carbolymer`> I see that "cabal build all -j --semaphore" should be enough (for latest ghc and cabal), is that right?
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14:59:20 <Inst> probably could be cleaned up further
14:59:20 <Inst> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/cyYgn3MX
14:59:42 <Inst> would be more fun to mod it into a foldr or foldl', and the parens behavior is undesirable
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18:27:27 <sm> @where hoogle
18:27:28 <lambdabot> https://hoogle.haskell.org
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18:28:15 <sm> @where+ shoogle https://www.stackage.org
18:28:16 <lambdabot> I will never forget.
18:28:19 <sm> @where+ mhoogle https://hoogle.mangoiv.com
18:28:19 <lambdabot> Done.
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18:30:34 <monochrom> mango
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18:31:19 <geekosaur> maybe you want the main one to point to the others as backups?
18:31:58 <monochrom> Yeah no one will actually remember the passwords "shoogle" and "mhoogle".
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18:32:27 <monochrom> @where has absolute zero discoverability.
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18:34:41 <haskellbridge> <sm> no-one remembers many of these, but I at least can search and find them: https://haskell-links.org/?q=hoogle (new ones will show up in a few minutes)
18:34:57 <haskellbridge> <sm> how'd you mean geekosaur ?
18:35:22 <haskellbridge> <sm> hayoo.. that could be dropped I think
18:35:49 <monochrom> Putting all 3 URLs under "@where hoogle"
18:36:21 <ski> or at least mentioning the other ones, from the main one
18:36:37 <haskellbridge> <sm> IME where doesn't handle that too well, it's easiest when each entry is one url
18:37:18 <haskellbridge> <sm> but at least I can type "hal hoogle" in browser address bar and see them all
18:37:28 <haskellbridge> <sm> where should do a similar search showing multiple matches IMHO
18:37:34 <monochrom> @where paste
18:37:34 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
18:37:56 <monochrom> That should mean @where stores arbitrary text as long as there is no newline.
18:38:33 <ski> @where Io
18:38:34 <lambdabot> Raphael L. Levien's language with continuations as fundamental structure, described in his paper "Io: a new programming notation" (1989-09-10) at <http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=70931.70934> and
18:38:34 <lambdabot> in chapter 2 of Raphael A. Finkel's book `APLD', implementations `Amalthea',`Ganymede' - (perhaps you were looking for `@wiki Introduction to IO' ?)
18:38:44 <monochrom> But meh, I don't even use hoogle, so I won't do anything about it.
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18:39:22 <haskellbridge> <sm> yes, it can do it, but I personally find that single-link entries are most useful (for my web app in particular, and for overall simplicity and searchability)
18:39:42 <haskellbridge> <sm> feel free to try other arrangements, you can update with @where+
18:40:01 <haskellbridge> <sm> anyway, once hoogle comes back noone will remember these :)
18:41:31 <haskellbridge> <sm> btw I never remember, who operates lambdabot - is it you ski ?
18:41:44 <geekosaur> int-e
18:41:48 <geekosaur> @version
18:41:48 <lambdabot> lambdabot 5.3.0.1
18:41:48 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
18:41:50 <haskellbridge> <sm> ah yes, thanks
18:41:53 <geekosaur> hm, wrong one
18:41:58 <geekosaur> @where L.hs
18:41:58 <lambdabot> what lambdabot has in scope is at https://silicon.int-e.eu/lambdabot/State/Pristine.hs
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18:42:34 <haskellbridge> <sm> @where hayoo
18:42:45 <geekosaur> need to split it into two lines
18:42:50 <haskellbridge> <sm> @where hayoo
18:43:09 <haskellbridge> <sm> ..something..
18:43:10 <haskellbridge> @where hayoo (I forgot)
18:43:10 <lambdabot> http://hayoo.fh-wedel.de/ -- See also Hoogle: http://haskell.org/hoogle http://fpcomplete.com/hoogle
18:43:19 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur> .
18:43:19 <haskellbridge> @where hayoo
18:43:22 <haskellbridge> <sm> there's a multi-url one
18:43:30 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur> argh, got a space inserted
18:43:49 <haskellbridge> <geekosaur> (my client is being a little weird, took multiple tries to even send that)
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18:45:01 <int-e> @seen int-e
18:45:01 <lambdabot> You are in #esolangs, #haskell-offtopic, #ghc and #haskell..
18:45:20 <ski> @seen mmorrow
18:45:20 <lambdabot> I haven't seen mmorrow.
18:45:25 <sm> @seen lambdabot
18:45:25 <lambdabot> Yes, I'm here. I'm in ##villagegreen, #lambdacalculus, #esolangs, #scannedinavian, #bfpg, #kmonad, #xmonad, #haskell-it-offtopic, #haskell-cs, #haskell-tw, #haskell-es, #haskell-au, #haskell-it, #
18:45:25 <lambdabot> haskell-cn, #haskell-ghcup, #haskell-lens, #haskell-in-depth, #haskell-offtopic, #haskell-blah, #haskell-beginners, #ghc and #haskell
18:45:41 <ski> @seen TheHunter
18:45:42 <lambdabot> I haven't seen TheHunter.
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18:47:54 <geekosaur> And yes, references to Hayoo can go now
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18:48:09 <sm> @where+ hayoo
18:48:09 <lambdabot> It is forgotten.
18:48:19 <geekosaur> It'll take HF involvement to bring Holumbus back to usability
18:48:42 <geekosaur> (that being the research-project search engine on which Hayoo had been based)
18:48:43 <haskellbridge> <sm> good:
18:48:43 <haskellbridge> @where links
18:48:43 <lambdabot> https://haskell-links.org collected Haskell links and search tools, including @where links
18:48:55 <haskellbridge> <sm> bad (why doesn't this work ?):
18:48:55 <haskellbridge> @where where
18:48:56 <lambdabot> ^^^^^^
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18:50:16 <monochrom> It works, IMO.
18:50:43 <haskellbridge> <sm> I expected it to find one of these links: https://haskell-links.org/?q=where
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18:51:39 <geekosaur> same thing as with the @seen above, LB handles it itself
18:51:49 <monochrom> Isn't that a haskell-links.org problem, not an @where problem?
18:51:52 <geekosaur> probably that's not a good idea here
18:52:17 <geekosaur> no, I think @where shouldn't intercept that lookup
18:52:33 <geekosaur> it's not doing anything useful
18:52:35 <monochrom> Oh speaking of self-reference.
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18:54:18 <monochrom> My colleagues shared the story that a CS prof entered law school and took CS courses for electives, and after thoroughly checking the rules, he enrolled in a CS course he taught and it's perfectly legal. >:)
18:54:19 <sm> I was just wondering why the "where" search pattern should be handled specially and give an obscure error
18:54:47 <geekosaur> it's not an obscure error, it's a smart-ass self-ref
18:55:08 <geekosaur> it should go
18:55:18 <sm> bah.. whoosh way over my head
18:56:02 <sm> I must be more alert to jokes from tools :)
18:56:11 <geekosaur> (smart-ass responses are an early days thing, most of them probably shouldn't be a thing any more)
18:57:04 <sm> 👍🏻
18:57:45 <int-e> That @where where response isn't built in; it's a normal entry in its "database".
18:58:19 <geekosaur> you sure? haskell-links.org is pulling from that db and sm says that's not what it gets?
18:58:20 <Franciman> do you use a relational database for lambdabot?
18:58:28 <geekosaur> it's all text
18:58:31 <Franciman> nice
18:58:34 <geekosaur> flat text files
18:58:43 <Franciman> good old string
18:58:44 <geekosaur> granting that they're read into Maps internally
18:58:46 <monochrom> Probably quadratic-time search.
18:58:58 <monochrom> OK just kidding
18:59:45 <int-e> yes I'm sure.
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19:00:34 <int-e> Franciman: this particular thing is stored as a gzip-compressed text file that stores keys and associated strings alternatingly
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19:01:53 <int-e> geekosaur: you can see that none of the keys is "where".
19:02:42 <ski> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
19:02:42 <lambdabot> "\"#$%&'()*+,\""
19:02:57 <int-e> (The key is labelled "ID". So either it's filtered because ^^^^^^ is not a link, or it doesn't search by ID)
19:04:36 <sm> yes I see - haskell-links.org ignores entries without a url. I had forgotten.
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All times are in UTC on 2024-09-25.