Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-09-28 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:40:22 <monochrom> Yes! "join s = zipWith (!!) s [0..]" for the stream monad (representable by ℕ) is generalizable to all representable functors as: join m = liftA2 lookup m (tabulate id).
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01:24:55 <jackdk> monochrom: if package `bifunctors` can have `Biff` and `Tannen`, as well as `Clown`s to the left and `Joker`s to the right, then you can do whatever you want.
01:26:19 <monochrom> haha
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01:54:15 <monochrom> TIL: If two endofunctors are naturally isomophic, then monadness of one of them can be translated to monadness of the other by going through the isomorphism.
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02:39:55 <ski> val tabulate : int * (int -> 'a) -> 'a vector (* in SML. also for lists, &c. *)
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08:59:19 <ncf> monochrom: is that surprising? if two sets are isomorphic then a monoid on one is a monoid on the other
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09:00:25 <ncf> in HoTT naturally isomorphic functors are equal so you can just transport the structure
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10:09:29 <haskellbridge> <aaron> monochrom: "join = (distribute id <*>)"
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10:49:56 <dminuoso> Sigh. At work I'm rewriting some Haskell parts to Python for some operational reasons. By far the biggest price is not having pattern match exhaustiveness checks anymore.
10:50:52 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: write explicit eliminator functions
10:50:56 <tomsmeding> a la `maybe`
10:51:23 <tomsmeding> then the python type checker (if you use one, otherwise a runtime error) will at least alert you that you have the wrong number of matches :p
10:51:30 <tomsmeding> downside: unreadable cases
10:51:44 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: Well this is rather about union types, but regardless. Doing this at runtime just trades programmer time for production outages..
10:52:01 <dminuoso> Hold on, maybe I misunderstand your suggestion
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10:52:22 <tomsmeding> I mean instead of writing `case m of Nothing -> _ ; Just x -> _`, write `maybe m _ _`
10:52:50 <tomsmeding> advantage: exhaustiveness checking is now performed by "supplying the right number of arguments to the function"
10:52:51 <dminuoso> Oh, I see.
10:52:54 <tomsmeding> disadvantage: unreadable
10:53:09 <tomsmeding> disadvantage 2: if you remove _and_ add a case, or change the order, woe you
10:53:10 <dminuoso> I mean for `maybe` it kind of works, but for custom unions it would be.. horrid.
10:53:29 <dminuoso> Well, changing the order could be caught by a type checker
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10:53:46 <tomsmeding> if you're fortunate and the union cases have differently-typed fields
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10:53:51 <tomsmeding> but yeah, not sure how serious this suggestion is :p
10:54:04 <dminuoso> To be fair Haskell has the same problem with functions too.
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10:54:14 <dminuoso> Mixing up two T arguments will be silently accepted.
10:54:18 <dminuoso> If only GHC had a crystal ball
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10:54:23 <tomsmeding> indeed
10:55:05 <dminuoso> That said, Haskell stays in place for our core networking fabric SDN Compiler.
10:55:47 <dminuoso> Nearly 4 years and not a single production outage (caused by a compiler bug). :)
10:56:16 <tomsmeding> s/not/just/?
10:56:21 <tomsmeding> oh
10:56:24 <Rembane> What happens if you use keyword arguments and write a check in the function to see that all members of the dictionary are supplied?
10:56:26 <tomsmeding> compiler meaning your thing, not GHC
10:56:31 <dminuoso> Yes.
10:57:03 <dminuoso> Rembane: The type checker should take care of that.
10:57:05 <dminuoso> I hope?
10:57:22 <Rembane> dminuoso: I don't know, I don't write typed Python. :)
10:57:36 <tomsmeding> oh that would improve on the readability of my dumb suggestion
10:57:43 <dminuoso> I do write types, but I have no faith in python type checkers, they just serve documentation purposes for me.
10:57:47 <Rembane> And you can order things in any order
10:57:51 <Rembane> things = arguments
10:58:32 <tomsmeding> still the syntactic nuisance that the right-hand sides must be expressions, instead of a block
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11:00:08 <Rembane> tomsmeding: That sounds like Python. :D
11:00:33 <tomsmeding> no `do` to turn a block into an expression :p
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11:02:24 <Rembane> Exactly!
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13:23:04 <[exa]> kinda weirdly unsettling that when searching for a good name for `flip const` by types, you only get `seq` and `par`.
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13:52:36 <tomsmeding> [exa]: perhaps people consider it to be below the fairbairn threshold?
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13:58:00 <tomsmeding> (\_ x -> x) is quite short, and (\_ -> id) even shorter
13:58:25 <__monty__> I prefer `const id`
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13:59:03 <__monty__> It hides the "flip" so people don't flip out ; )
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13:59:28 <tomsmeding> on the other hand, if the function one is looking for is "return the second argument", then that's clearly `flip` of "return the first argument"
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14:01:00 <__monty__> It's hard to fly under the radar when all you want is to be pointless.
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14:23:03 <[exa]> __monty__: +1 insightful
14:23:32 <[exa]> anyway I made k'nst just to make my opinion completely obvious
14:23:34 [exa] hides
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14:24:47 <tomsmeding> "when in doubt between two suboptimal solutions, choose the third solution that is even worse than both; then at least everyone will be equally annoyed"? :p
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20:45:52 <haskellbridge> <sm> entering this room on matrix always takes longer than others, because IRC channels have a lot more joins/leaves than matrix rooms I suspect
20:46:29 <haskellbridge> <sm> I supposed filtering those out would be a msitake
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20:47:14 <geekosaur> it's not ideal but suspect it's necessary until/unless merijn fixes his setup
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21:15:45 <cheater> who tried static ls
21:15:55 <cheater> it's looking good
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21:54:54 <haskellbridge> <sm> wizardry: https://chrisdone.com/posts/tour-of-hell 's implementation
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22:11:21 <Inst> okay, screw comonads, i just don't see the advantage over lenses/optics besides not requiring TH / manual writing of lenses
22:12:00 <Inst> if there's an HTML library designed to use optics, would that be a substantial advantage over lucid / blaze?
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22:18:45 <dmj`> @package type-of-html
22:18:45 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-of-html
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22:20:44 <Inst> i'm aware of it, but is it designed to use optics?
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22:24:04 <bud> hello haskell people!
22:24:37 <geekosaur> 👋
22:25:23 <bud> i found this really cool, video editor built with haskell that i wanted to try, but the build fails.
22:25:53 <bud> https://owickstrom.github.io/komposition/ <- video editor, https://github.com/owickstrom/komposition <- repo
22:26:04 <bud> i use Arch btw
22:26:05 <geekosaur> sadly, the ground is littered with such cool projects that bitrotted when the author was promptly hired by someone and possibly under NDA
22:26:33 <geekosaur> that said, Arch is something of a warning sign. at minimum, try using `-dynamic`
22:26:56 <geekosaur> but you may have to toss Arch's ghc and libs and start over with ghcup: Arch's Haskell ecosystem is a mess
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22:27:07 <bud> installation instruction say it is easiest installed with "stack"
22:27:56 <bud> i installed stack followed by `stack install` got errors on compiling "ffmpeg-light"
22:28:05 <geekosaur> I don't know off the top of my head how you would force stack to pass -dynamic to everything necessary
22:28:23 <bud> might be related to this: https://github.com/acowley/ffmpeg-light/issues/69
22:28:54 <bud> install docs, also have this sidenote: >If you know your way around building Haskell programs, you might want to build it using Nix or regular Cabal, instead.
22:29:07 <bud> https://owickstrom.github.io/komposition/user-guide/installation/
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22:29:35 <geekosaur> do you get that exact build error? "error: ‘AVStream’ has no member named ‘codec’"
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22:31:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> by our standards, getting that far is pretty good! :) (I didn't; ghc 8.6 is too old for macs)
22:32:28 <bud> geekosaur: https://0x0.st/XgTo.txt
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22:33:11 <haskellbridge> <sm> internet says "AV_CODEC_CAP_TRUNCATED has been removed in ffmpeg 6"
22:33:22 <geekosaur> okay, your problem is that `ffmpeg-light` requires an older `ffmpeg` than Arch ships
22:34:06 <geekosaur> and apparently either nobody has updated it or other dependencies are preventing newer versions are being used
22:34:27 <geekosaur> were this a cabal build I'd try --allow-newer=ffmpeg-light
22:34:41 <geekosaur> not sure how you do that with stack, I don't use that much
22:34:56 <bud> i think it is possible to install with cabal also
22:35:14 <bud> https://github.com/owickstrom/komposition/blob/master/komposition.cabal
22:35:17 <geekosaur> make sure the instructions aren't as out of date as the software
22:35:30 <geekosaur> (stack uses .cabal files)
22:35:40 <geekosaur> cabal 1.x was a royal mess
22:35:48 <bud> maybe easiest for me would be to install nix
22:35:51 <geekosaur> and 2.x+ behave rather differently
22:36:01 <bud> and install with nix
22:36:03 <haskellbridge> <sm> for some value of "easiest"
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22:41:07 <haskellbridge> <sm> or maybe you can install "ffmpeg5.1" package ?
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22:41:53 <bud> too late, im nixing now
22:42:47 <bud> also arch has ffmpeg4.4 but no 5.1, 4.4 probably work, but again, im nixing now.
22:43:20 <bud> not exactly sure but i think it is compiling gtk3 now..
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22:45:07 <haskellbridge> <sm> soon this battle station will be fully operational
22:45:23 <monochrom> haha
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23:27:07 <bud> build failed in nix also, i give up. stay strong haskell people, thanks for help!
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