Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-09-29 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:44 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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00:06:28 ← dlock23 parts (~dlock23@160.red-81-40-78.staticip.rima-tde.net) (Leaving)
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00:46:06 × alp quits (~alp@user/alp) (Remote host closed the connection)
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00:56:53 <Inst> hum, so this zipper-based conway isn't that bad
00:57:18 × troojg quits (~troojg@user/troojg) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
00:59:16 <Inst> now, instead of having to predefine the data size, i can just select a section from the zippers (that use streams in lieu of lists) and laziness takes care of the rest
01:02:39 × Inst quits (~Inst@user/Inst) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:02:42 × merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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01:05:25 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
01:10:47 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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01:29:34 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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01:31:06 × gmg quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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01:34:45 × merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
01:35:16 × Patrickfield quits (~Patrickfi@net-2-36-176-102.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:36:21 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
01:40:59 × Smiles quits (uid551636@id-551636.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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02:04:46 × merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
02:05:01 × op_4 quits (~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1) (Remote host closed the connection)
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02:08:16 → morb joins (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
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02:21:15 × merijn quits (~merijn@204-220-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
02:21:38 × peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
02:25:39 × cyphase quits (~cyphase@user/cyphase) (Quit: cyphase.com)
02:25:56 × identity quits (~identity@user/ZharMeny) (Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.4))
02:26:06 <probie> Zipper-based involves a huge amount of memory allocation, which is not free
02:27:13 <probie> Unless you need an ever expanding universe, or want to watch things one iteration at a time, just go with hashlife
02:30:02 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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03:08:50 × spew quits (~spew@201.141.99.170) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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03:56:41 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
03:57:06 × tromp quits (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
03:57:39 × rvalue quits (~rvalue@user/lvalue) (Changing host)
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05:51:15 × vincent42 quits (uid574193@id-574193.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Changing host)
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06:14:14 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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07:00:01 × tt123109783243 quits (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
07:00:02 × caconym quits (~caconym@user/caconym) (Quit: bye)
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07:07:46 × tromp quits (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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07:14:52 ljdarj1 is now known as ljdarj
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08:34:57 <apache2> anyone here used some of the libraries for term rewriting, like compdata/compdata-automata? what were your experiences with things that worked / shortcomings?
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13:35:07 <dontdieych2> Building HLS on aarch64, Asahilinux apple M2. error log -> https://gist.github.com/dontdieych/ad02cd5b04c3ded4a2f0e73a165e4a05
13:35:16 <dontdieych2> libHSterminfo-0.4.1.5-ghc9.4.8.so: error: undefined reference to 'del_curterm', version 'NCURSES6_TINFO_5.0.19991023
13:35:42 <dontdieych2> looks like ncurses libtinfo cause problem.
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13:36:04 <dontdieych2> anyone have clue about that?
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13:39:05 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Is your libtinfo present and functional? And of the correct architecture
13:39:13 <dontdieych2> output of `rpm -qa|rg ncurses` --> https://gist.github.com/dontdieych/ffb1bdbf0bebebf0e4d176eead37dd7b
13:39:45 <dontdieych2> ye looks like ok
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13:39:49 <geekosaur> where did you get your ghc install from? did asahi package it?
13:39:59 <dontdieych2> no all of from ghcup
13:40:26 <geekosaur> uh? ghcup doesn't have anything for linux on m2, I'm pretty sure
13:40:41 <dontdieych2> ghcup's hls not working so I tried build manually by `ghcup compile hls`
13:41:21 <dontdieych2> It actually install hls but not working with vscode, neovim. spit out some libtinfo.so.6 error
13:41:40 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Output of "file /home/a/.ghcup/ghc/9.4.8/lib/ghc-9.4.8/bin/./ghc-9.4.8" and "file /lib64/libtinfo.so.6"
13:41:49 <dontdieych2> /lib64/libtinfo.so.6: no version information available <-- like that
13:41:56 <dontdieych2> wait sec
13:43:30 <dontdieych2> /home/a/.ghcup/ghc/9.4.8/lib/ghc-9.4.8/bin/./ghc-9.4.8: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib/ld-linux-aarch64.so.1, for GNU/Linux 3.7.0, BuildID[sha1]=a17309b5708a17c2180c92354d2c5d56183cb8b2, not stripped
13:43:32 <dontdieych2> /lib64/libtinfo.so.6: symbolic link to libtinfo.so.6.4
13:43:52 <dontdieych2> tinfo version mismatch?
13:44:16 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> "file /lib/libtinfo.so.6.4" usefully file doesnt deref symlinks by default
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13:44:37 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> There must be smth weird about your "libtinfo", dont ask me what though
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13:45:53 <geekosaur> the fact that it output a symbol version makes me think it found that symbol with a different version
13:46:30 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Oh right yeah i didnt notice that :(
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13:46:53 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Why would it be expecting a different one, ah ghc is probably not compiled from source?
13:46:57 <int-e> file -L follows symlinks
13:46:59 <geekosaur> um, in fact I see the problem now
13:47:30 <geekosaur> NCURSES_TINFO_5.0.19991023 vs. libtinfo.so.6.4
13:47:31 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> int-e: good to know... i could have guessed given i know that find -L does
13:47:39 <geekosaur> ghc is linked against ncurses 5, not ncurses 6
13:48:49 <geekosaur> (and there was a major compatibility break between 5.x and 6.x, in 6.x every internal type became opaque)
13:50:11 <int-e> so $distro dropped TINFO_5.0 support? My libtinfo.so.6.5 exports NCURSES6_TINFO_5.0.19991023
13:50:49 <geekosaur> typically there's a backward compatibility package (well, two of them, binary/runtime and devel, and here we need the devel one)
13:51:55 <geekosaur> and yes, limited backward compatibility is a build-time option for ncurses
13:52:09 <geekosaur> (easier for terminfo than for curses itself)
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13:56:04 <dontdieych2> install pkg info --> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/osASkuaF
13:56:37 <dontdieych2> ncurses-libs and ncurses-compat-libs both installed. BTW fedora 40 asahilinux
13:57:37 <geekosaur> which devel package(s)?
13:57:55 <geekosaur> (will provide libtinfo.so with no version suffix)
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13:58:44 <dontdieych2> $ rpm -qa|rg ncurses
13:58:46 <dontdieych2> ncurses-base-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.noarch
13:58:48 <dontdieych2> ncurses-libs-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.aarch64
13:58:50 <dontdieych2> ncurses-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.aarch64
13:58:52 <dontdieych2> ncurses-term-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.noarch
13:58:54 <dontdieych2> ncurses-c++-libs-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.aarch64
13:58:56 <dontdieych2> ncurses-devel-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.aarch64
13:58:58 <dontdieych2> ncurses-static-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.aarch64
13:59:00 <dontdieych2> ncurses-compat-libs-6.4-12.20240127.fc40.aarch64
13:59:20 <dontdieych2> installed allof '^ncurse' pkgs.
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14:00:40 <dontdieych2> not sure but if my memories correct hls worked with vscode + haskell extention at least once couple of days aga.
14:00:53 <dontdieych2> with ghcup's hls
14:02:45 <dontdieych2> backup ~/.ghcup, ~/.cabal then reinstall hls ground up. is it good idea?
14:03:26 <dontdieych2> gonna try, nothing to lose
14:03:46 <int-e> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/ncurses/blob/rawhide/f/ncurses.spec hmm... does that mean there's a ncurses-compat-libs package with the 5.0 ABI?
14:05:00 <dontdieych2> int-e: ye installed it already
14:05:23 <dontdieych2> rpm -ql ncurses-compat-libs|rg tinfo
14:05:25 <dontdieych2> /usr/lib64/libtinfo.so.5
14:05:27 <dontdieych2> /usr/lib64/libtinfo.so.5.9
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14:07:18 <dontdieych2> ll /lib64/libtinfo*
14:07:20 <dontdieych2> .rw-r--r--@ 357k root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo.a
14:07:22 <dontdieych2> lrwxrwxrwx@ - root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo.so -> libtinfo.so.6*
14:07:24 <dontdieych2> lrwxrwxrwx@ - root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo.so.5 -> libtinfo.so.5.9*
14:07:26 <dontdieych2> .rwxr-xr-x@ 334k root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo.so.5.9*
14:07:28 <dontdieych2> lrwxrwxrwx@ - root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo.so.6 -> libtinfo.so.6.4*
14:07:30 <dontdieych2> .rwxr-xr-x@ 335k root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo.so.6.4*
14:07:32 <dontdieych2> .rw-r--r--@ 448k root root 1 Feb 09:00 /lib64/libtinfo_g.a
14:08:02 <dontdieych2> so.. tinfo.so.5 is there but whatever reason ghc grab so.6?
14:08:06 <geekosaur> won't help with rebuilding it unless there's a libtinfo.so pointing to the 5.9 so and matching include files, though
14:08:54 <dontdieych2> manually `ln -sf` /lib64/libtinfo.so -> libtinfo.so.5 ?
14:09:05 <geekosaur> include files won't match
14:11:23 <int-e> dontdieych2: okay. sorry this is probably not helpful because apparently that ghc links against .6. I was mostly curious.
14:12:03 <int-e> . o O ( I /might/ consider LD_PRELOAD shenanigans depending on mood and phase of the moon )
14:12:49 <int-e> (but I'd also expect to run into trouble with subprocesses that actually want .6)
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14:16:44 <dontdieych2> started ` ghcup compile ghc -j 4 -v 9.4.8 -b 9.4.8`
14:16:57 <dontdieych2> hope to it works
14:17:22 <dontdieych2> -b 9.4.8 , is it right? (whatever, nothing to lose)
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14:18:36 <dontdieych2> bunch of warnings about libinfo
14:19:26 <dontdieych2> there must be some compiler flags for set manually to so.5
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15:55:05 <raehik> If I have a big bit twiddle of `a .|. 0b0001 .|. b .|. 0b1001`, is GHC smart enough to combine the constants into `a .|. b .|. 0b1001`?
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15:56:27 <raehik> Ack. Wasn't there a GHC/Haskell playground that lets you view Core, advertised the other day?
15:56:35 <raehik> I could answer it myself if I had that
15:57:18 <raehik> google found it immediately :) https://play.haskell.org/
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16:07:54 <raehik> Hm. No, GHC wasn't able to combine those. That's a shame. https://play.haskell.org/saved/VfZw28Kb
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16:09:34 <raehik> Bleh, it is an association issue. Putting the constants next to each other has GHC combine them as expected.
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16:11:14 <raehik> (Oops, please read my original example as having constants 0b0001, 0b1000)
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16:16:05 <raehik> Wait, no! The Core leaves the constants separate, but the ASM has them combined. Cool!
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17:55:47 <deepfire> Is this the best place to ask haskell.nix questions, or is there a better channel (.e.g #nixos)?
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17:59:41 <Rembane> deepfire: Try here and see what happens, otherwise some nix channel is better
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18:04:11 <raehik> deepfire: The Nix Haskell Matrix room is great for such questions
18:04:26 <raehik> https://matrix.to/#/#haskell:nixos.org
18:04:52 <deepfire> ooh browser.. but thank you raehik! :-)
18:05:17 <geekosaur> there are non-browser clients, although by default it'll probably suggest app.element.io
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18:05:28 <geekosaur> (I use Nheko via flatpak)
18:06:48 <mauke> the problem with matrix is that it has no good clients
18:07:20 <geekosaur> you haven't seen the trainwreck that's the server side, I take it 😛
18:07:30 <mauke> :-(
18:07:59 <geekosaur> recent releases of synapse have been scrambling room state on a regular basis
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18:49:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> Element on mac is good for me (and Element X on ios is fine)
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18:51:02 <geekosaur> I'm getting lots of weirdshit on the web version in firefox (but not chrome for some reason)
18:51:21 <geekosaur> like none of the UI strings are being looked up and translated
18:52:21 <geekosaur> "timeline|summary|format" for joins/parts, etc.
18:52:24 <haskellbridge> <sm> plenty of changes at https://github.com/element-hq/synapse/releases I see
18:52:42 <haskellbridge> <sm> I do feel like matrix.org got faster yesterday
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18:53:53 <mauke> Element X (Android) is still slow to sync and it keeps showing my (days old) messages at the bottom of the room, no matter what
18:54:14 <mauke> so I effectively have a non-contiguous message timeline
18:54:21 <haskellbridge> <sm> ah, that sucks. Clearing cache in settings didn't help yet ?
18:54:30 <haskellbridge> <sm> I've heard posting a new message can help
18:54:44 <mauke> how do you even create a bug like that?
18:55:22 <mauke> I mean, it's showing the right timestamp of when I sent the message, it's just not sorted properly in the history
18:55:31 <haskellbridge> <sm> well... think about how much distributed state this is... and the logic complexities
18:56:02 <mauke> sortBy (comparing timestamp)
18:56:10 <haskellbridge> <sm> I hear you :)
18:57:07 <haskellbridge> <sm> which timestamp
18:57:35 <mauke> I assume each message has an associated timestamp
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18:58:15 <haskellbridge> <sm> I'm guessing there's quite a lot of timestamps flowing around
18:58:20 <geekosaur> "origin_server_ts"
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18:58:55 <haskellbridge> <sm> and which of them do you trust
18:58:57 <monochrom> Stupid bugs are not worth defending.
18:59:32 <mauke> the one it uses to render the message timestamp
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18:59:48 <geekosaur> sm, timestamps are going to screw you no matter what ("falsehoods programmers believe about time" etc.)
18:59:58 <haskellbridge> <sm> it might be stupid, I won't defend it any more, but I bet it's a bit harder than it looks
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18:59:59 <geekosaur> origin server timestamp is about as good as you're going to do
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19:00:08 <mauke> which is 2024-09-25 20:25, but it shows after messages on 2024-09-28
19:00:09 <monochrom> Also, stupid bugs are plentiful.
19:00:18 <mauke> this is purely a frontend/rendering bug
19:00:30 <mauke> if it can display a timestamp on each message, it can sort by that timestamp
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19:01:01 <haskellbridge> <sm> also they are overloaded/underfunded, so things have to wait
19:01:01 <geekosaur> definitely is, I had that bug in some rooms on regular Element for Android but not Element Web or Nheko
19:01:28 <geekosaur> still have no clue why or why it resolved itself eventually
19:01:48 <mauke> sm: I don't see anything about caching in settings
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19:02:21 <mauke> hah, "Deactivate account" isn't localized
19:02:22 <monochrom> My sister just had a coworker making 2nd-year student mistakes. There is a "char buf[N]" holding a nul-terminated string. It is to be passed to a function that doesn't use the nul-terminated convention, instead the (addr, len) convention. The coworker, like my 2nd-year naive students, wrote "f(buf, sizeof(buf))".
19:02:22 <geekosaur> X apparentlyy has some ugly hacl
19:02:25 <haskellbridge> <sm> mauke: it's hidden in Help & About probably
19:02:54 <monochrom> You don't need complexity for stupid bugs. You just need stupidity. Which is pervasive.
19:03:16 <mauke> there is no Help; About is just a bunch of web links
19:03:25 <haskellbridge> <sm> I don't know why they don't put you in charge monochrom , we'd get this mess straightened out :)
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19:03:58 <haskellbridge> <sm> mauke: I don't know element android at all, but every version of element I've used has a Clear Cache somewhere in settings
19:04:40 <haskellbridge> <sm> oh I remember In EX on IOS, in settings, you tap the version string 7 times to unlock a hidden dev settings. :-)
19:05:08 <haskellbridge> <sm> Be careful of the trap! tapping 8 or 9 times risks deactivating account 🤣
19:07:11 <haskellbridge> <mauke> Ah, that did the trick
19:07:49 <mauke> very bizarre
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19:13:56 <deepfire> ..all this makes me wonder, why do people willingly suffer Matrix..
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19:14:52 <deepfire> like it's some sort of golden land of opportunity and adventure
19:15:03 <haskellbridge> <sm> what do you use ?
19:15:26 <haskellbridge> <sm> yes, it kind of is that
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19:43:14 <monochrom> I would think that IRC is what takes willing suffering. :)
19:48:38 <geekosaur> people suffer matrix because it has most of the features of slack or discord but is open source and open spec
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19:50:37 <TMA> I have heard of some mythical IRC future version that is better than everything combined but that suffers one fatal flaw: nobody uses it. I have not checked if it really exists though
19:50:55 <darkling> If a tree falls in the forest, etc...
19:51:03 <geekosaur> that sounds like an incorrect understanding of IRCv3
19:51:28 <geekosaur> it has the extensibility needed to support these features, but nobody has actually implemented any of them
19:51:35 <geekosaur> in either server or clients
19:51:42 <TMA> yes, that might be the name.
19:51:54 <geekosaur> (the server we're on supports IRCv3)
19:53:28 <Rembane> I think Weechat supports some of them. I need to read up on this!
19:53:37 <geekosaur> I mean, it already has a spec for typing notifications but good luck finding clients that use it
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19:54:52 <monochrom> Also, "future version" is euphemism for vapourware. :)
19:54:57 <Rembane> I don't want typing notifications, they stress me out.
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19:55:37 <haskellbridge> <sm> agreed, turn them off
19:55:45 <monochrom> In the case of IRCv3, the theory has been around for decades. You can bet it will stay as theory forever.
19:56:05 haskellbridge sm doesn't send them but still receives them, when that's allowed... which is cheating
19:56:12 <geekosaur> neh, they'll start showing up after everyone has already abandoned IRC
19:56:43 <monochrom> Yeah that too. :)
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19:57:48 <geekosaur> (matrix has typing notifications. if someone takes more than about 30 seconds I'm always like "shit or get off the pot already")
19:58:23 <yushyin> seems like weechat has +typing support since sept. 2021 o.O
19:58:26 <haskellbridge> <sm> lol yeah sometimes in a chat the typing indicator comes and goes.. for minutes.. yet you can't look away
19:58:49 <monochrom> Um you don't believe in taking time to write and proofread properly before pressing enter? :)
19:59:31 <monochrom> OK OK I will write and proofread properly in emacs before pasting into matrix. :)
19:59:47 <TMA> hey IPv6 is around since 1995 and it is slowly gaining traction: 1998 IETF draft standard, 2017 internet standard, 2024 my internet provider offers IPv6 connectivity and assigns addresses upon request...
19:59:57 <haskellbridge> <sm> I don't think typing notifications come over the irc bridge, you're fine monochrom :)
20:00:09 <TMA> more patience is needed for IRCv3 :)
20:00:23 <haskellbridge> <sm> so, who's going to build the actually good matrix client in haskell ?
20:00:43 <haskellbridge> <sm> or an actually good server for that matter
20:01:00 <haskellbridge> <sm> (which is easier ? I'm guessing client)
20:01:33 <geekosaur> hell, I keep thinking about writing a bridge in Haskell, especially after learning that the heisenbridge author/maintainer is apparently stepping back
20:01:35 <__monty__> Not a fan of GlIRC?
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20:01:54 <haskellbridge> <sm> geekosaur: yes!
20:02:02 <glguy> __monty__: glirc isn't a matrix client
20:03:42 <geekosaur> I'm not sure either one is easier. servers have to deal with e.g. the nightmare that is room sync between federated servers; clients have to do all the heavy lifting for pretty much every feature
20:04:02 <__monty__> glguy: Well, not with that attitude. But my cursed Bitlbee-libPurple-PurpleMatrix+<a sprinkling of Bash> makes *any* IRC client a Matrix client ; )
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20:04:42 <glguy> I guess. For me the only thing worse than using Matrix would be using Matrix via an IRC client
20:05:02 <geekosaur> you mean weechat-matrix?
20:05:04 <haskellbridge> <sm> geekosaur: yeah :-/ uh.. a bot then ?
20:05:06 <__monty__> Yeah, it's pretty horrendous. But so are all the Matrix clients if I'm to believe the people I talk to.
20:05:22 <geekosaur> yeh, they all have big problems
20:05:43 <geekosaur> and the matrix spec is a moving target that I'm not sure client devs can keep up with
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20:07:46 <pdxleif> What's the option to get GHCi to show the foralls in type signatures explicitly?
20:08:10 <geekosaur> -fprint-explicit-foralls, unsurprisingly
20:08:28 <Rembane> Speaking of chats... I must post this: https://xkcd.com/1782/
20:11:43 <__monty__> Especially when Element does an Olm rugpull with a big ol' CVE.
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20:13:42 <haskellbridge> <sm> I would say don't believe all the matrix client bashing you hear. The experience probably depends on platform , memory, and rooms/activities
20:14:49 <__monty__> Sure, but I'm on old hardware and in big rooms so I'm not likely to have the best of times.
20:15:31 <haskellbridge> <sm> yeah, it depends. On an older machine I can imagine the element web app might be the best option
20:16:12 <haskellbridge> <sm> and element x, the newer lighter element replacement, probably doesn't run on your machine yet
20:16:54 <haskellbridge> <sm> Rembane :)
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20:20:09 <__monty__> I think the web app doesn't work for me anymore. Not enough hardware acceleration or something.
20:20:26 <haskellbridge> <sm> geekosaur, re "clients have to do all the heavy lifting for pretty much every feature". Actually the element folks have built much of it into a library, used by EX but intended for other client devs as well.
20:20:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> But it's rust. I'm not sure how callable that would be from haskell.
20:21:09 <__monty__> It tells me it doesn't support my browser but I'm running Firefox 130.0.1, which is not that old unless I'm mistaken?
20:21:46 <haskellbridge> <sm> __monty__: that seems like the latest, it's what I have
20:22:00 <haskellbridge> <sm> weird, any other browser you could try ?
20:22:57 <__monty__> Don't want to try Chrome so not really I don't think?
20:23:58 <haskellbridge> <sm> it should definitely be working in firefox, seems worth bugtracker investigation
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20:26:26 haskellbridge sm found a few alternatives at https://www.tecmint.com/linux-web-browsers . Anyway, hope something works
20:27:03 <geekosaur> app.element.io refused to run on konqueror 😞
20:27:18 <geekosaur> (after producing a lot of untranslated ui strings on my firefox)
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20:33:47 <haskellbridge> <sm> challenge: build a super-lean minimal matrix client in hell or microhs
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20:34:57 <haskellbridge> <sm> for the former, your building blocks are: https://chrisdone.github.io/hell/api
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20:41:06 <haskellbridge> <sm> hmm, not much about networking in there
20:41:26 <haskellbridge> <sm> but that's a quick PR away
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20:45:06 <deepfire> geekosaur: is there a way to circumvent nheko's insistence on failing without it being able to access "secure storage"?
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20:45:35 <geekosaur> I have no idea, I've never seen that
20:45:49 <geekosaur> might require some part of the KDE services (kwalletd?)
20:46:16 <deepfire> "Nheko could not connect to the secure storage to save encryption secrets to. This can have multiple reasons. Check if your D-Bus service is running and you have configured a service like KWallet, Gnome Keyring, KeePassXC or the equivalent for your platform. If you are having trouble, feel free to open an issue here: https://github.com/Nheko-Reborn/nheko/issues"
20:47:06 <geekosaur> `dbus-launch nheko`?
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20:58:15 <deepfire> ok, I had to cave in and come up with a secret storage backend
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21:17:50 <[exa]> is it a good practice to put optimization flags into a cabal file, or is there some mechanism that defaults stuff well from the environment? (also, does the default include -O or not?)
21:20:22 <[exa]> (in my case there's a few executables and stuff like -fexpose-unfoldings and -fspecialise-aggressively gives ~20x speedup for free)
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21:22:09 <dolio> Cabal does -O by default.
21:23:37 <dolio> I don't recall if you can test for someone saying to optimize less, or if you'd have to use a flag for that, but maybe you should do that in case someone wants to build faster.
21:23:59 <dolio> And by "do that" I mean turn off those optimizations in that case.
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21:30:59 <[exa]> hm maybe I should simply provide some kind of install copypaste that has the inlining -f's in it
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21:31:33 <[exa]> "if you forget the 2 flags, stuff is gonna get veeeeeeeeeeery slow"
21:32:18 <[exa]> dolio: anyway thanks for confirming the -O, I looked at some docs and it didn't look very obvious there
21:33:21 <monochrom> I used "cabal install -v" to discover it. :)
21:33:39 <geekosaur> cabal file no, cabal.project{,.local} yes
21:33:52 <monochrom> Then I went on to read source code to find out you can do https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cabal-cabal.xhtml#O2
21:34:17 <geekosaur> https://github.com/geekosaur/xmonad.hs/blob/hilfy-2023/cabal.project.local
21:34:51 <monochrom> It is somewhere in the docs since the vast improvement some years ago. But not back in my days.
21:35:00 <dolio> The docs for `optimization:` also tell you this.
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21:35:57 <andrewboltachev> Hello! CT question: category Set is known to have objects as sets, and arrows as functions between them. Here this diargam: https://main.andrewboltachev.site/toolbox/logicore1/6ac02cce-49ba-47c2-acef-b592e53d2fa1/7/ displays simple algebraic type, similar to (Int, [String]). Is it possible to have a category where Objects are things like (_, _), [_], Int, String, and arrows -- connections between them like fst, snd, * (the argument for
21:35:57 <andrewboltachev> the [*] type)?
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21:37:12 <monochrom> Yes, Set again.
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21:37:53 <dolio> Between which two objects is `fst` supposed to be an arrow?
21:38:19 <dolio> I assume (,) is the domain, but what is the codomain?
21:38:23 <andrewboltachev> monochrom: I tried. but faced some problems. E.g., is (_, _) a set?
21:38:55 <monochrom> No. But for each set X and Y, (X,Y) is a set, most people write XxY.
21:38:57 <andrewboltachev> dolio: codomain is something that will be in place of the first element of (_, _)
21:39:16 <dolio> But what actually is it? :)
21:39:51 <andrewboltachev> (_, _) is a product type with two parameters :-) sort of...
21:40:08 <dolio> No, what is the codomain object?
21:40:44 <andrewboltachev> one example is Int is a type with 0 parameters. other example maybe other type, even the same like another (_, _)
21:41:59 <andrewboltachev> "fst" arrow from (_, _) might even point to itself. similar to data Stream a = Cons a (Stream a)
21:42:52 <andrewboltachev> yet to be honest one idea I had is using sets and functors. e.g. if I have type Int, I can construct [Int]
21:44:06 <andrewboltachev> *category Set and functors
21:47:02 <andrewboltachev> 'cause real goal is to refactor this data structure by, say, applying a function to some of "leaf nodes"
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21:50:59 <andrewboltachev> What I need seems intuitively very clear, I already implemented alsmost all that I need: https://github.com/andrewboltachev/matcher/blob/master/src/Logicore/Matcher/Core.hs
21:51:23 <andrewboltachev> I only cannot reason about it category-theoretically
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21:52:33 <ncf> are we supposed to read these 2759 lines to understand this "intuitively very clear" thing you're talking about?
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21:53:22 <dolio> You can create a category where objects are pairs (n, F : Set^n -> Set). Then, an arrow (m, F) -> (n, G) explains how to select a list of n sets from a list of m sets, together something that maps F applied to the m sets to G applied to the n sets selected in the first part.
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21:54:02 <dolio> Possibly with some kind of naturality involved.
21:54:15 <dolio> Anyhow, something like that is a possibility.
21:57:11 <andrewboltachev> ncf: no. just trying to proof that I made something real, not just idea
21:59:28 <andrewboltachev> dolio: so, is n a number (e.g. 3) and Set^3 -> Set a function from three sets to one?
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22:01:10 <andrewboltachev> dolio: well, Set^3 is a category of triplets like (a, a', a'')
22:01:45 <dolio> A functor.
22:02:26 <andrewboltachev> ok F is a functor. that's how we make a functor from more than one set to one essentially
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22:03:57 <dolio> Yes. But what you're talking about is assembling many different arities of functors into a single category. So that requires having some way of relating different arities to make any sense.
22:04:34 <andrewboltachev> Yes. thanks a lot for the idea! I'll research it
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22:06:12 <dolio> Also, depending on what exactly you want to do, you might need not just numbers, but lists indicating whether the argument is covariant or contravariant, and so on.
22:06:40 <dolio> But all the examples were covariant functors.
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22:09:22 <andrewboltachev> https://app.diagrams.net/#G1lKco0mv66sGjTyMSMU1g-ogSE5PIbdzc#%7B%22pageId%22%3A%22YBh8yTivGdvy1ecIg6Zf%22%7D
22:09:57 <andrewboltachev> dolio: Maybe coproduct will give rise for contravariant functors in the idea you've given
22:10:21 <dolio> No. Exponentials will.
22:10:25 <andrewboltachev> ah
22:10:30 <dolio> I.E. functions.
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22:13:06 <andrewboltachev> coproducts (in ADTs) have been a problem (or main point of interest?) for me in this (bigger) idea that I research
22:13:51 <andrewboltachev> in, for example "Categorical Databases" by David Spivak et al they talk about a "Database instance" functor C -> Set
22:14:54 <andrewboltachev> but I believe it only works for them 'cause single "database table" is like a product of fields: (e.g. first_name, last_name, email, password etc)
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22:17:13 <andrewboltachev> if I generalize the idea (which I want) and the "generalized table" has also coproducts, e.g. either "pickup" or "delivery" (for a web store like Amazon perhaps) then how do they map coproduct onto Set
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22:22:00 <hololeap> andrewboltachev: https://www.parsonsmatt.org/2019/03/19/sum_types_in_sql.html ?
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22:24:30 <andrewboltachev> hololeap: well, this is for SQL, but I rather mention "Categorical Databases" :-)
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22:25:12 <hololeap> ok
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22:26:03 <andrewboltachev> hololeap: also, some ppl say that having extra constraints in SQL will make db perform slower. (some even say that Foreign keys make it slow)
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22:26:40 <andrewboltachev> so one approach is to have e.g. "type" column and then several nullable columns, where each subset is for particular type etc etc
22:27:06 <geekosaur> depends on the db, really. sqlite will be bad, postgresql should be reasonable
22:27:29 <geekosaur> mariadb is poor
22:28:25 <hololeap> the article mentions three different approaches, including nullable columns
22:28:26 <andrewboltachev> yes I worked with ppl who denied fks in Postgres in "pursuit" for performance
22:29:13 <geekosaur> postgres has this thing where it's slower than simpler dbs for small tables, but scales far better than other databases as they get larger and more joins are involved
22:29:14 <andrewboltachev> hololeap: thanks. sorry
22:30:20 <hololeap> it's cool I just threw it out because at first glance it seemed vaguely relevant to the backlog I bothered to read
22:30:31 <hololeap> lol
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22:31:03 <andrewboltachev> geekosaur: I believe there's a lot of science happening under the hood of Postgres :-)
22:31:18 <monochrom> Why is sqlite bad with foreign keys? If I create an index for the foreign key column, will it be much better?
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22:31:37 <geekosaur> sqlite's just bad at jpining; it works best with single flat tables
22:31:47 <geekosaur> this is the price of being small and simple
22:31:50 <andrewboltachev> (didn't learn how to read output of EXPLAIN yet)
22:32:50 <geekosaur> basically it has no clue about query optimization, so where postgresql and even mariadb will optimize joins to at leats some extent, sqlite will keep brute-forcing them
22:33:26 <geekosaur> (for example it doesn't know how to use relative table sizes to determine when it's better to do the join from the other direction)
22:34:04 <geekosaur> and keeps no key statistics so it can't use those to similarly optimize how to do joins
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22:34:43 <geekosaur> this kind of stuff means postgresql has higher overhead, but that overhead is fairly fixed so it becomes a smaller part of the cost as tables/indexes get larger
22:34:44 <__monty__> I'm skeptical working around the lack of foreign keys would usually be more performant than letting the DB engine do its thing.
22:35:29 <geekosaur> sounds like second generation nosql to me
22:35:42 <andrewboltachev> yes that team used JSONB
22:36:03 <andrewboltachev> i.e. two column tables — uuid and data (jsonb)
22:36:04 <geekosaur> unsurprisingly, nosql dbs are terrible at sqlish things
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22:36:37 <andrewboltachev> but PostgreSQL is good at nosql (if you want it). Or is it?
22:37:12 <geekosaur> the higher overhead means it's usually not that great at them. tbh I'd use sqlite at that point
22:37:34 <andrewboltachev> ah
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22:37:52 <geekosaur> it's doing a lot of bookkeeping to optimize sql-style queries, if you do nosql with it that's all wasted
22:38:47 <geekosaur> (sorry, my inner db wonk is showing 🙂 )
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22:39:02 <andrewboltachev> geekosaur: I sometimes optimize ORM calls :D (e.g. call 1 time instead of N)
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22:41:14 <andrewboltachev> geekosaur: do you use esqueleto or sth?
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22:43:02 <andrewboltachev> geekosaur: and have you seen "Categorical databases"? And if yes, do you think it brings anything useful
22:44:17 <geekosaur> I don't actually do databases any more (since 1996)
22:44:51 <andrewboltachev> wow
22:44:55 <geekosaur> but that was around when the open source community picked up postgres, ripped out the research-quality QUEL engine, and started building a production-quality SQL engine to replace it
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23:20:07 <geekosaur> (also, re "Categorical Databases", I'm a programmer/sysadmin who's picked up a very little bit of abstract mathematics from hanging out in here; I expect that paper would be gobbledygook to me)
23:20:13 <geekosaur> whoops, missed
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23:41:18 <monochrom> :)
23:41:47 <monochrom> There is a chance David Spivak's writing can made sense to practical people. Afterall, he wrote like "CT for engineers".
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