Logs on 2024-10-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 08:10:42 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> what's a way to think about UI responsiveness? reponsiveness here understood as automatic reformating/rerendering of the program to be well-suited to the viewer's screen, e.g. in a mobile app |
| 08:11:14 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> probably would like to distinguish some sort of "core" of the program from responsiveness, which doesn't seem essential to determine the meaning of the program |
| 08:11:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> is responsiveness just an effect like any other? |
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| 08:26:16 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm DOMs probably provide a good justification to model GUIs as trees, and then responsiveness can be treated as some sort of embedding of such trees into a context |
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| 08:29:09 | <tomsmeding> | do note that many a (well-designed) website switches to a significantly different layout when viewed on a small enough screen |
| 08:29:26 | <probie> | I doubt it. Minor changes to the tree can have drastic changes to the UI |
| 08:29:33 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. a layout that cannot just be achieved by inserting or removing line breaks between tree elements |
| 08:30:28 | <tomsmeding> | think also of things like: having a collapsible menu on mobile instead of a toolbar at the top on desktop |
| 08:30:29 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm..... right |
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| 08:31:03 | <tomsmeding> | some people don't like that, but it's a valid design decision that has reasons behind it (conforming to the UI expectations of a different platform) |
| 08:31:46 | <tomsmeding> | (never mind that it's often implemented as page width check, meaning that a narrow desktop browser window may trigger the mobile UI, which is not ideal) |
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| 08:32:34 | <tomsmeding> | for simple websites, heuristics based on rearranging the tree may work well, but if you have precise requirements then that may not cut it |
| 08:33:46 | <tomsmeding> | s/websites/UIs/ |
| 08:33:52 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> can we not think first of some sort of tree which models, not layout, but order of appearance to a user? this is then is an immutable tree which could capture the core, non-responsive aspect of the application |
| 08:34:24 | <tomsmeding> | if you sufficiently abstract the content from the presentation, and allow writing a bespoke renderer, then sure you can do this |
| 08:35:07 | <tomsmeding> | but then that solution is not necessarily very specific to "responsiveness" :) |
| 08:38:54 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> maybe then responsiveness could appear as some sort of map from this order-of-appearance tree to something else? e.g. if an application has three possible layout readjustments, responsiveness could be modeled as a map from the order-of-appearance tree in one of three domains, and each of these domains internally model continuous deformations on the GUI within a certain threshold? |
| 08:39:09 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> i don't know, maybe these domains are also trees? |
| 08:39:15 | <tomsmeding> | sounds reasonable |
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| 08:53:35 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> oooooo if we reverse the direction we get a function that's surjective but not injective and the immutable tree can be thought of as some sort semantics |
| 08:54:18 | <tomsmeding> | is that reverse a function at all? |
| 08:54:29 | <tomsmeding> | is it not possible for multiple "content trees" to result in the same layouts? |
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| 08:55:06 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> tomsmeding: hm an interested in this, would you have a short example? |
| 08:55:12 | <tomsmeding> | not sure! |
| 08:55:20 | <tomsmeding> | it just feels like an unnecessary restriction on the layouting process |
| 08:55:53 | <tomsmeding> | a classical example, though about text formatting and not about layout, is emphasis vs italics |
| 08:56:30 | <tomsmeding> | in TeX, the italics command makes its argument, well, in italics font; the emphasis command does the same thing (output is indistinguishable), but _nesting_ emphasis commands makes the inner text upright again |
| 08:56:38 | <tomsmeding> | "emphasis within italics is upright text" |
| 08:57:15 | <tomsmeding> | not sure if you'd have something like this in layouting, but I wouldn't be surprised if you do |
| 08:57:32 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> that's a great example ty will be thinking about it |
| 08:57:35 | <geekosaur> | which has been the convention in books for over a century |
| 08:57:56 | <tomsmeding> | I have seen emphasis-within-italics few enough times in my life that I cannot judge that :p |
| 08:58:11 | <tomsmeding> | I just know that TeX does this |
| 08:59:12 | <tomsmeding> | (to be honest I always find it somewhat unsightly to see upright text within italics as meaning emphasis, but that's perhaps just me) |
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| 09:18:51 | <geekosaur> | books didn't have many other options back then |
| 09:19:07 | <geekosaur> | (physical lead type; phototypesetting wasn't a thing) |
| 09:20:00 | <tomsmeding> | no underlining available? |
| 09:20:12 | <tomsmeding> | probably other people find that even more unsightly |
| 09:20:25 | <tomsmeding> | I guess with typographical restrictions like that it makes much more sense to do this |
| 09:20:35 | <tomsmeding> | (and hence I wouldn't be annoyed about it) |
| 09:21:08 | <eugenrh> | thirdofmay18081814goya, for what you mean by responsiveness, I've seen in use the term 'convergence'. |
| 09:21:26 | <eugenrh> | Quote: "Convergence can also refer to being able to run the same app across different devices and being able to develop apps for different devices (such as smartphones, TVs and desktop computers) at once, with the same code base." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_convergence |
| 09:21:42 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like something broader than just layout adaptation |
| 09:21:49 | <tomsmeding> | "responsiveness" is a term from web development |
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| 09:28:21 | <geekosaur> | re underlining, you could get such type, but the more kinds of type you required the more expensive printing was. even bold was often simulated as a result ("typewriter bold") |
| 09:28:39 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 09:28:51 | <geekosaur> | because someone had to unload and reload the leads and an additional printing pass had to be made |
| 09:29:01 | <tomsmeding> | I sometimes see simulated boldface in PDFs and it's unsightly and pointless |
| 09:30:16 | <geekosaur> | yeh, it wasn't so pointless back then though |
| 09:30:50 | <tomsmeding> | of course :) |
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| 12:51:06 | <shapr> | GOOD MORNING |
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| 12:58:47 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 12:58:47 | <lambdabot> | earthy says: <earthy> the volume of a pizza with radius z and height a is pi * z * z * a... |
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| 13:05:50 | <tomsmeding> | good quote |
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| 14:06:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> good morning shapr |
| 14:07:54 | <shapr> | o/ |
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| 18:03:50 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 18:03:50 | <lambdabot> | DigitalKiwi says: monochrom: i want edwardk to take one of your courses |
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| 18:10:33 | <geekosaur> | lol |
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| 18:16:25 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 18:17:15 | <monochrom> | I have seen edwardk's work and also met him in person. He already knows more. |
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| 18:37:26 | <EvanR> | monochrom's Haskell Masterclass |
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| 20:03:12 | <dmj`> | we need a Haskell masterclass |
| 20:03:52 | <int-e> | class Mistress a where |
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| 20:05:01 | <monochrom> | Is the dual of that class clown? >:) |
| 20:05:13 | monochrom | acts like a class clown, you see. :) |
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| 20:19:00 | <Enrico63> | Hello. I tried upgrading my GHC from 9.8.2 to 9.10.1, and I only want to keep one because they take space. The point is that installing only 9.10.1 breaks dbus, because the most recent dbus, i.e. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dbus-1.3.6, wants template-haskell <2.22, but the most recent template-haskell <2.22, i.e. |
| 20:19:00 | <Enrico63> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.21.0.0 requires that base be <4.20, but GHC 9.10.1 ships with base 4.20.0.0. I guess the "bug" here is in the .cabal file of dbus, becuse it has a very loose dependency on base (<5) but a tight dependency on template-haskell (<2.22) which itself depends on base. |
| 20:19:01 | <Enrico63> | What is the correct way to deal with this situtation? |
| 20:20:25 | <weary-traveler> | Enrico63: either update dbus, or use a different version of ghc |
| 20:20:35 | <weary-traveler> | latest isn't always better |
| 20:20:43 | <monochrom> | "correct" depends on why you want to move to 9.10.1, how urgent it is. |
| 20:21:23 | <monochrom> | But in case you insist, then the correct way is to update dbus. You can fork it publicly, fork it privately, ... |
| 20:22:17 | <monochrom> | But you can quickly get a preview by saying --allow-newer to see if there is any issue other than just old bounds that can safely be widened. |
| 20:22:50 | <monochrom> | s/widened/relaxed/ # I hate English |
| 20:23:39 | <geekosaur> | if you want to be safer, `--allow-newer=dbus:template-haskell` |
| 20:25:11 | <adamCS> | might also be worth putting that in a "cabal.project" file because there might be more bounds that need relaxing and it gets messy on the command line... |
| 20:25:34 | <monochrom> | I actually didn't know (but would love to know) that syntax. I guess I should read the manual from cover to cover, like I tell other people to. :) |
| 20:26:50 | <adamCS> | (In cabal.project you would have a line "allow-newer: dbus:template-haskell" and then you can add more of them, separated by commas. |
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| 20:29:18 | <Enrico63> | But what's the difference between adding allow-newer: something, and removing the upper bound from something? |
| 20:29:38 | <geekosaur> | it's advisory |
| 20:29:42 | <Enrico63> | Oh, wait, I thought we were talking of the .cabal file, but now I see cabal.project being mentioned :/ |
| 20:30:01 | <Enrico63> | Advisory..? |
| 20:30:09 | <monochrom> | Removing upper bounds in *.cabal files sound like very permanent and also international. |
| 20:30:29 | <monochrom> | --allow-newer is just for yourself and you don't have to inflict it on everyone in the world. |
| 20:30:34 | <adamCS> | Allow-newer allows you to do it when compiling something else. So you need not change the other packages. So it allows the solver to pick things forbidden by the bounds and see if they actually compile (and run) |
| 20:30:45 | <monochrom> | cabal.project is also just for yourself. |
| 20:31:30 | <Enrico63> | Ok, I guess I have to stick in my memory that cabal.project is mine and foo.cabal is for everybody? |
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| 20:31:56 | <Enrico63> | But so am I not supposed to have a cabal.project in a repo that I publish? |
| 20:32:12 | <monochrom> | To be fair, if you never upload foo.cabal, then it's also just for yourself. |
| 20:32:34 | <Enrico63> | Well, everything is just for myself if I don't uploade it :D |
| 20:33:13 | <monochrom> | But there is still the distinction between one-off and permanent, even just for yourself. How would you like to pull your hair off? |
| 20:33:32 | <sclv> | the long term right thing is to ask the dbus maintainer tup update the bonds |
| 20:33:34 | <sclv> | bounds |
| 20:33:46 | <Enrico63> | > Removing upper bounds in *.cabal files sound like very permanent and also international. |
| 20:33:46 | <Enrico63> | I meant that if I'm just playing around to understand what's going wrong with versions, is there a diffference between throwing away all bounds and running `cabal build` to see if there's a combination of versions working, and using that allow thing? |
| 20:33:47 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘in’ |
| 20:33:52 | <geekosaur> | (constraints vs. preferences https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.12/cabal-project-description-file.html#cfg-flag--c) |
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| 20:34:24 | <sclv> | the short term solution is just to build with --allow-newer=dbus:template-haskell in the meantime, or in appropriate cabal.project files |
| 20:36:16 | <Enrico63> | I see |
| 20:36:25 | <monochrom> | --allow-newer does not require opening an editor. :) |
| 20:36:53 | <Enrico63> | By the way, dbus seems to build with <= 2.22.0.0 instead of < 2.22, so I might just as well make a PR :/ |
| 20:38:43 | <monochrom> | I'm coming from the opposite of Yoda's. I say "try before commit, there is no do or do not". I would think it's more scientific. |
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| 20:42:49 | <Enrico63> | Thanks everybody! |
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| 21:24:33 | zero | is now known as yin |
| 21:24:46 | <yin> | hey. what's the latest news? |
| 21:25:13 | <yin> | anything exciting happening in the haskellverse? |
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| 22:06:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ICFP happened not long ago, interesting videos |
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| 22:06:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> The Haskell committee and foundation just announced they’re merging |
| 22:07:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> And HF has moved to matrix for chat |
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| 22:08:25 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> There’s an “official Haskell blog” recently set up |
| 22:11:02 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> microhs and hell are a new portable Haskell compiler and a Haskell-like scripting language built on the ghc runtime, respectively |
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| 22:13:10 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Cardano Haskell based blockchain continues to run with 100% uptime |
| 22:13:42 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Funding and sponsorship of ghc and Haskell is slowly growing |
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| 22:15:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> in the Haskell-wasm room, wasm back end with template Haskell support just passed all ghc tests for the first time |
| 22:15:36 | <yin> | sm: thanks! |
| 22:15:51 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> A few things! Excuse the dump |
| 22:16:02 | <yin> | not at all, keep going |
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| 22:28:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> sm: Did ghc plugins with cross compilation get figured out ? |
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| 22:38:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> magic_rb: Don't know about that |
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| 22:57:41 | <geekosaur> | I suspect not |
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