Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-10-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:05:00 × athan quits (~athan@syn-098-153-145-140.biz.spectrum.com) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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03:18:01 <haskellbridge> <GunpowderGuy> Is it true that haskell is mainly used by banking instituciones and Crypto currency?
03:18:42 <haskellbridge> <GunpowderGuy> My college Is organizing a trip to hong Kong to see tecnological instutions that mainly work on those fields
03:18:52 <haskellbridge> <GunpowderGuy> * Hong
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03:47:01 <jackdk> I write "boring" business software for an ecommerce company and it's really good for that. Haskell is my favourite general-purpose programming language.
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06:26:34 <yin> hell. haskell is my favourite oop language
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07:46:52 <kqr> @pl \x -> all [f x, g x, h x]
07:46:52 <lambdabot> all . liftM2 (:) f (liftM2 (:) g (return . h))
07:47:12 <kqr> Okay. Not quite what I hoped for.
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07:55:04 <kqr> Wait that's because I've mixed up all and and!
07:56:12 <kqr> @pl \x -> all ($ x) [f, g, h]
07:56:12 <lambdabot> flip all [f, g, h] . flip id
07:56:22 <kqr> okay not better but I'm good with what I have
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09:01:25 <probie> :t getAll . foldMap All
09:01:26 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t Bool -> Bool
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09:02:37 <probie> > map ((getAll . foldMap All) [(> 5), even, (/= 8)]) [1..10]
09:02:38 <lambdabot> error:
09:02:39 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘a3 -> b’ with actual type ‘Bool’
09:02:39 <lambdabot> • Possible cause: ‘getAll
09:03:04 <probie> derp
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09:08:27 <probie> > map (((getAll .) . foldMap (All .)) [(> 5), even, (/= 8)]) [1..10] -- much less convincing
09:08:28 <lambdabot> [False,False,False,False,False,True,False,False,False,True]
09:14:19 <probie> % import Data.Functor.Contravariant
09:14:19 <yahb2> <no output>
09:14:42 <probie> % map ((getPredicate . foldMap Predicate) [(> 5), even, (/= 8)]) [1..10]
09:14:42 <yahb2> [False,False,False,False,False,True,False,False,False,True]
09:14:59 <probie> I was sure I'd seen it somewhere as a newtype
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11:24:49 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> does row insertion ring a bell to anyone wrt algebraic effects?
11:24:53 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> am trying to interpret a paper
11:25:58 <Rembane> Which paper are you trying to interpret?
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11:27:23 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> http://casperbp.net/store/hefty-algebras.pdf
11:27:29 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> part on "row insertions"
11:27:39 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> section 2.2
11:27:57 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> apparently it's from Datatypes a la carte but I can't find it there
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13:06:08 <kqr> It was a long time since I last did Haskell, but I don't remember Hackage being this slow. What has changed and how are you dealing with it?
13:07:52 <__monty__> Hackage isn't slow for me, do you mean Hoogle? There's been recurring problems with it recently, haven't kept up enough to know why.
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13:21:20 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> can the following Lean type be expressed in haskell?
13:21:20 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/jCazZRxEVojmkycJUItjxokl/5fTPquYXkqQ (3 lines)
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13:40:05 <probie> thirdofmay18081814goya: Isn't that just `data MyType = forall a . MyType a`?
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13:42:00 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> probie: yeah!
13:42:05 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> been away from haskell a while heheh
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13:42:25 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty
13:43:15 <probie> I don't think it's particularly useful outside of using `unsafeCoerce` or esoteric things like keeping references to prevent garbage collection.
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14:02:56 <Square> Anyone know of any good teaching material to get your typical Java/C# enterprise developer into Haskell? Possibly something that focuses on mapping what they do all day to Haskell. Less focus on all the things there is to love about Haskell.
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14:13:00 <probie> Sitting in meetings all day is the same in both Java and Haskell
14:14:01 <__monty__> If you emulate Java/C# too closely you'll end up with a bunch of boilerplate and performance issues. So I think it's not a great perspective to start learning Haskell from.
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14:31:32 <Square> __monty__, I'm thinking "-This is how you get your DB, rest frontend, security, logging, unit tests, integration test, etc... up. Feel free to dig deeper into the language aspects when you can serve a list of items."
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14:32:04 <dminuoso> None of these are fun in Haskell. :-P
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14:32:29 <dminuoso> So if you want to scare your developer away, this would be exactly the kind of things I would do in Haskell.
14:32:53 <dminuoso> (Though "security" is a nebulous term here...)
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14:33:31 <__monty__> I think we need to know *why* you are trying to teach Haskell first. Because it sounds like you want to take a bunch of Java/C# developers and have them write in Haskell instead without really benefitting from the language.
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14:36:54 <probie> __monty__: it's interesting that you think that writing Haskell doesn't provide much benefit when doing "boring" things
14:37:09 <Square> It's become apparent our domain is hard to tackle wo a bunch of features present in Haskell. Monadic evaluation / do syntex, GADTs, more-advanced-than-available in Java pattern matching, side effect free constructs, etc. So we need to replace half of our application with Haskell. The devs need to learn parts of it on varying degree from superficial to more advanced.
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14:39:47 <__monty__> probie: That's not an accurate reflection of what I think.
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14:41:02 <__monty__> "We need to not do Java," sounds like a motivation for not giving them Java but in Haskell.
14:41:06 <Square> dminuoso, I was thinking web security. Authorization/Authentication. RBAC and OAuth etc. Just to drop some collection of words that comes to mind. =D
14:41:16 <dminuoso> Square: In that case, the best teaching material is the actual code you are working on.
14:41:32 <dminuoso> It gives your developers motivation to learn the things needed for your code..
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14:42:19 <Square> Good point. I can see what you mean.
14:42:21 <dminuoso> So you're trying to rewrite a full fledged web application, backend and frontend, in Haskell?
14:42:52 <Square> Actually the rewrite is mostly done. The part that is left is integrating it into the existing java app.
14:43:02 <dminuoso> Your own code automatically teaches the idiom they are likely to encounter, the libraries you use, the GHC features you enable...
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14:58:17 <Leonard26> Hello! How are you today? :] I am trying to use the language bindings for Gstreamer, but I am stuck at trying to declare a certain type.
14:58:17 <Leonard26> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gst-1.0.29/docs/GI-Gst-Callbacks.html#t:PadActivateFunction
14:58:18 <Leonard26> The type is called PadActivateFunction, it serves as the name suggests to "activate" a certain element in the application. I have gotten as far as declaring this type with
14:58:18 <Leonard26> type PadActivateFunction = Gst.Pad -> Gst.Object -> IO Bool    as written in the bindings. But now I am stuck and don't know how to go forwards =L
14:58:19 <Leonard26> The type is supposed to later be used in conjunction with a function called padSetActivateFunctionFull
14:58:19 <Leonard26> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gst-1.0.29/docs/GI-Gst-Objects-Pad.html#v:padSetActivateFunctionFull
14:58:20 <Leonard26> This is my code up so far
14:58:20 <Leonard26>   Just decodeSinkPad <- Gst.elementGetStaticPad decode "sink"
14:58:21 <Leonard26>   let myActivateFunction :: PadActivateFunction
14:58:21 <Leonard26>       myActivateFunction decodeSinkPad decode
14:58:22 <Leonard26>   Gst.padSetActivateFunctionFull decodeSinkPad activateFunction
14:58:22 <Leonard26> It is throwing this error
14:58:23 <Leonard26> D:\stack-projects\gtk-intro-twelve\app\Main.hs:275:3: error: [GHC-58481]
14:58:23 <Leonard26>     parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
14:58:24 <Leonard26>     |
14:58:24 <Leonard26> 275 | Gst.padSetActivateFunctionFull decodeSinkPad activateFunction
14:58:25 <Leonard26>     | ^
14:58:25 <Leonard26> I am guessing it is because I didn't write the myActivateFunction correctly. Could you help me out? =(
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15:01:32 <geekosaur> it doesn't look written at all to me, it's just the LHS without an RTS?
15:02:05 <Leonard26> What do you mean?
15:03:23 <geekosaur> `myActivateFunction decodeSinkPad decode` what? that's an expression, not a definition. what is `myActivateFunction` supposed to be doing?
15:06:06 <Leonard26> If I understand correctly, it's supposed to be returning a Bool value, True if it succeded in activating the pad, False if it failed.
15:06:28 <Leonard26> It's this right here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gst-1.0.29/docs/GI-Gst-Callbacks.html#t:PadActivateFunction
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15:07:40 <geekosaur> so why isn;t it doing that? It's just sitting there without a body, as far as I can tell. Shouldn't it be `myActivateFunction decodeSinkPad decode = …` for some `…`?
15:08:06 <Leonard26> It feels wrong as I've written it tho, you're right. But what am I supposed to write in it then? It just takes two values, a pad and its parent, and returns a Bool
15:09:04 <Leonard26> Yes I think it should be something like this as well `myActivateFunction decodeSinkPad decode = …` not sure what to put in there tho...
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15:09:47 <c_wraith> I think you've likely wandered off into the weeds.
15:10:31 <c_wraith> that whole module looks like stuff you only interact with to customize behavior when defaults don't do the job
15:12:32 <Leonard26> You're right, but the default behaviour won't get me what I need :(
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15:14:14 <dminuoso> I'd just ask for the whole module to be pasted unmodified (see topic for a link to a website for snippets).
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15:15:06 <dminuoso> Generally when it comes to parse errors you cannot figure out, chances are there's some surrounding artifacts that change the theme. Intuitively Id say you're just not in a do-expression, but Ill wait for the pastie.
15:16:47 <Leonard26> I don't understand what you want me to do. Is the link I've provided not working? There's the whole module right there
15:17:28 <dminuoso> Is my weechat acting up? I dont see a link to a pastie that contains your full code.
15:18:21 <dminuoso> You have only linked to gi-gst on hackage, but not your own gtk-intro-twelve/app/Main.hs contents.
15:18:28 <geekosaur> you pointed to a GStreamer module, not to your code that uses it; you pasted that into the channel, which is generally not helpful as most IRC clients will make it a mess
15:18:48 <dminuoso> Well, not just that, you've very likely cut off the parts that explain the problem. :-)
15:19:13 <Leonard26> Oh, I see. Is there a website I can use to do that then?
15:19:22 <dminuoso> http://paste.tomsmeding.com works great
15:19:30 <geekosaur> the one you weere just asked to use, in the topic?
15:20:52 <dminuoso> Ah, though geekosaur's initial impression is correct.
15:21:40 <Leonard26> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/X8qXy2tR
15:23:45 <dminuoso> Let bindings (in do-expressions) are of the form `let p = e` not `let p e`
15:24:32 <dminuoso> You are missing an equals sign somewhere there. The parser is complaining because it's still looking for an equals sign, found a line break...
15:24:53 <dminuoso> And then the indention went back to the left
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15:26:34 <dminuoso> (You can break the indiviual binding across multiple lines, but you must increase indention for the following lines)
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15:27:13 <Leonard26> Yes I think that's what it's complaining about. I still need to figure out how to use this function tho
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18:25:46 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> wasn't there a language extension that allowed us to have values that are big lambdas?
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18:26:18 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> so that you have values whose type is a polymorphic type
18:27:55 <monochrom> Like id :: a -> a; id x = x ?
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18:28:59 <dmj`> as opposed to small lambdas?
18:29:18 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> yeah
18:29:28 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> monochrom: "id :: forall a. a -> a"
18:30:11 <monochrom> ExplictForall ?
18:30:35 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right but there were no proper polymorphic values somewhere? like in system F?
18:31:19 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> maybe I'm misremembering
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18:32:59 <dmj`> system f loosens the restriction that lambda bound arguments have to be monomorphic
18:35:02 <probie> dmj`: small lambdas (λ; `\` in Haskell) are term level, big lambdas (Λ; `forall` in [GHC's extensions to] Haskell) are type level
18:36:21 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> probie: it would be important to clarify that in system F big lambdas are not type-level
18:36:46 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> they are terms that are typed with universal quantification
18:37:00 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i.e. normalized expressions, so values
18:37:13 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i think I'm just misremembering someone's comment about TypeAbstractions
18:37:16 <monochrom> We don't have syntax for big lambda in terms. We just have syntax for forall in types. But you can't call it "no proper polymorphic values". \x->x is a proper polymorphic value.
18:38:30 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> monochrom: i would want to say type-reconstructs to a polymorphic value instead here, because the syntax is ambiguous and non-canonical
18:38:44 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> or type-infers to a polymorphic value
18:39:11 <monochrom> OK OK we have big lambda since GHC 9.8. It's TypeAbstractions and \(x[@a] -> x) I think.
18:39:16 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i.e. "\x -> x" is polymorphic only in the derived sense of a property of the type inference algorithm, not as the property of a term
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18:40:07 <monochrom> Err, \ @a x -> x
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18:42:18 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> monochrom: ah this was it!
18:42:21 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> nice thanks a lot!
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18:46:35 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> monochrom: hm having a bit of trouble using it properly. having better luck?
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18:47:21 <monochrom> I have never used it. I only saw https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/type_abstractions.html
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18:48:40 <monochrom> IMO you should simply consult the GHC user's guide.
18:49:20 <monochrom> (That's what I did every time I needed something, e.g., that's where I learned GADTs)
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18:51:02 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> good point ty
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18:52:38 <Lears> @where+ rtfm https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/
18:52:38 <lambdabot> Okay.
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20:24:02 <cheater> ok no, let's not be assholes to people trying to learn
20:24:10 <cheater> @where- rtfm
20:24:10 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: where+ where
20:24:16 <cheater> how do we get rid of that
20:24:29 <geekosaur> @where rtfm
20:24:29 <lambdabot> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/
20:24:42 <monochrom> IIRC @where+ with the original key but empty new value
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20:25:32 <geekosaur> oh right
20:25:35 <geekosaur> @where+ rtfm
20:25:35 <lambdabot> It is forgotten.
20:25:51 <geekosaur> @where manual
20:25:51 <lambdabot> I know nothing about manual.
20:26:04 <geekosaur> @where+ manual https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/
20:26:04 <lambdabot> Okay.
20:26:36 <cheater> the @help on lambdabot could use a little once-over
20:26:49 <cheater> nbd tho
20:27:56 <cheater> man, standard chartered sure is having problems retaining employees
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20:38:20 <probie> cheater: any idea why?
20:38:39 <cheater> my guess is bad culture
20:38:56 <cheater> 0 information about that one though
20:39:05 <geekosaur> cheater, https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/pull/205
20:39:16 <geekosaur> although I think this particular one needs to be added
20:39:49 <tomsmeding> thirdofmay18081814goya: in particular this page is a good bookmark https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/table.html
20:40:09 <geekosaur> unfortunately you can see how long it's been mouldering; I don't think whoever's currently maintaining it cares about the help
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20:40:58 <cheater> that's nice but otoh i'm not about to go chasing a bot's source code to find out how a command works
20:41:07 <cheater> it feels like something only someone running the bot would remember to do
20:41:39 <geekosaur> point is it's supposed to be committed, then the online help will do something useful
20:41:43 <cheater> tomsmeding: oh yeah
20:41:51 <cheater> geekosaur: oh. it's not?
20:42:01 <cheater> see that's my 11 pm thinking quality
20:42:40 <geekosaur> \it's an outstanding pull request that the maintainer hasn't even bothered to comment on
20:42:41 <cheater> jeez it's been sitting for 2 years
20:42:42 <cheater> yeah
20:42:52 <cheater> maybe the maintainer died
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20:44:44 <monochrom> The economics of volunteer efforts.
20:45:07 <monochrom> (Alternatively or equivalently, "what economics?".)
20:46:24 <cheater> microsoft was right when in the 90s they stated in an internal memo that linux is communism
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20:46:51 <cheater> now everyone's dozing off at the conveyor belt!!!
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21:03:44 <sm> you can also find the GHC guide at
21:03:50 <sm> @where ghc-guide
21:03:50 <lambdabot> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide
21:04:37 <sm> along with cabal-guide, stack-guide. Also I will note that RTFM is a time-honoured traditional hacker's salutation.
21:05:59 <sm> lambdabot's operator is int-e
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21:09:13 <sm> if someone gets energised they could start running their own updated lambdabot. Keeping it running reliably long term is harder.
21:15:42 <geekosaur> operator, yes. someone else had taken over maintenance, and last I heard was trying to get an upstream package updated that doesn't build with modern GHC (I think because of MonadFail?)
21:15:48 <geekosaur> but that was 2 years ago
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23:59:33 <Zer000> whoa wait a second, my application just changed the way it calculates numbers but all I did was add a print statement! I'm looking at the diff and besides print out a list (generated purely from two Integers), I refactored a very simple toInteger call to be it's own variable name using let. How the heck is this possible?? Before my application was crashing because it was trying to use (!!) with a negative index on a list.

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