Logs on 2024-10-21 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:57:58 | <Axman6> | Henson: Are you able to make a minimal reproducer? it sounds like a fairly easy one to reproduce if it's just using async, MVars and foreign pointers. |
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| 09:14:04 | <kaol> | I have a meta Haskell question: I'm thinking of applying for a Rust job and I don't really know Rust but I've got the impression that they've borrowed a lot from Haskell. And I know imperative stuff like C/C++/Java. Do you have suggestions how I should hand wave my way about it? |
| 09:15:56 | <Rembane> | kaol: Learn to handle the borrow checker, otherwise you should be fine. If you know Haskell you have the capacity to learn abstract programming languages and that will help you in Rust too. |
| 09:16:22 | <Rembane> | ...according to my experiences. :D |
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| 09:22:25 | <Hecate> | eyo Rembane <3 |
| 09:22:29 | <Hecate> | what's up? |
| 09:26:33 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Yo! <3 Long time no see! |
| 09:29:38 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I'm not a rust programmer, but from what I've read I don't think you can hand wave it |
| 09:30:09 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Not much, procrastinating finishing my thesis, looking for a new job but not that seriously, and enjoying the swedish autumn. :D |
| 09:31:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it's an anti hand waving language |
| 09:32:23 | <Rembane> | That's what makes it fast and safe, right? |
| 09:37:07 | <Hecate> | Rembane: good, good :) |
| 09:37:53 | <Rembane> | Hecate: What's new in your world? :) |
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| 09:41:26 | <Hecate> | Rembane: still very busy! but I got some nice SF to read these days so that's really good |
| 09:41:52 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Oooooooooooh. Anything to recommend? |
| 09:41:53 | <Hecate> | I'm reading the "Children of Time" trilogy by Adrian Tchaikovsky |
| 09:42:03 | <Rembane> | Hecate: I've heard good things about it! Now I must read it! |
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| 09:44:02 | <Hecate> | yes! |
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| 09:51:54 | <kaol> | sm: They did allow in the job ad that they'll take people who can learn it. |
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| 09:58:13 | <kaol> | I guess "hand waving" was overstating it, mainly I was just thinking how relevant mentioning Haskell knowledge would be when I tell that I don't know Rust (yet) in the application. |
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| 10:03:06 | <tomsmeding> | kaol: what other imperative languages do you know? |
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| 10:06:10 | <kaol> | tomsmeding: Besides the C, C++ and Java I mentioned: Perl and JavaScript. Some Python and Pascal. Dabbled in a few others that I'll skip. |
| 10:06:26 | <tomsmeding> | (sorry I skipped most of the convo) |
| 10:07:15 | <tomsmeding> | Rust is like: Haskell + haskell mindset (strong typing, care about mutability) <tensorproduct> C++ mindset (resource awareness) + standard imperative programming |
| 10:08:24 | <tomsmeding> | if you can show you have those things, you'll be in a very good place to pick up rust |
| 10:08:38 | <tomsmeding> | you will need to get familiarity and skills with the borrow checker |
| 10:08:46 | <tomsmeding> | which you can't learn beforehand, it takes practice |
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| 10:10:14 | <kaol> | They said that knowing C++ is still a plus if you don't know Rust and I suspect that they would have mentioned Haskell as well but they didn't expect that anyone would know it. |
| 10:10:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> kaol: fair enough |
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| 10:11:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> if you don't know haskell yet, I don't think learning it will be a shortcut to learning rust |
| 10:11:44 | <kaol> | I've used Haskell in production for over 5 years. |
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| 10:11:54 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ah, great |
| 10:12:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> then sure, that's a great thing to mention |
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| 10:12:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I got a job once by mentioning haskell |
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| 10:27:56 | <kaol> | And if anyone happens to have a Haskell job available I'd rather do that instead of telling how I can do something else because I know it. Just mentioning. |
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| 11:06:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> kaol: worth contacting the recent job posters on the discourse and reddit |
| 11:09:48 | <kaol> | I think I know the usual haunts. I was making conversation, or something. Thanks for the insight, I'll try the Rust one at least. |
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| 19:03:54 | <kqr> | I know some people use a synonym `asText = id :: Text -> Text`. Is there something similar for numeric types? It really bothers me to have to create useless variables just because numbers are so generic! |
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| 19:04:32 | <mauke> | at that point, why not just use a type annotation |
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| 19:06:29 | <kqr> | The thing I'm looking at currently is something like `encodeUtf8 . pack . printf "%040x" . asInteger <$> Random.randomRIO (0, 2^160)`. Where would you suggest slotting in the type annotation? |
| 19:08:31 | <mauke> | 0 :: Integer |
| 19:09:03 | <kqr> | Oh, I did not think of that. That is nice. Thanks! |
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| 19:10:00 | <monochrom> | "abc" :: Text too |
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| 19:11:15 | <monochrom> | But printf is always going to be tough because it has multiple genuine ambiguities. |
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| 19:15:15 | <[exa]> | kqr: had a similar problem recently with peek/poke and Word sizes. Ended up making a bunch of synonyms for peek32 and poke64 etc. |
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| 19:27:18 | <tomsmeding> | kqr: `Random.randomRIO @Integer` is also an option |
| 19:27:39 | <tomsmeding> | (the appropriate type variable is conveniently first in randomRIO's forall list) |
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| 19:28:36 | <tomsmeding> | but if you want an asInteger-like thing, `id @Integer` works fine ;) |
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| 21:44:40 | <sam113101> | does haskell have classes and objects |
| 21:45:07 | <geekosaur> | no |
| 21:45:35 | <geekosaur> | (there are typeclasses but they arfe emphatically not the same thing, and trying to use them for OOP will bite you hard) |
| 21:45:51 | <geekosaur> | Haskell is about functional programming, nit OOP |
| 21:45:54 | <geekosaur> | *not |
| 21:46:17 | <dmj`> | haskell doesn't have subtyping |
| 21:46:36 | <dmj`> | its pass by value by default, not by reference |
| 21:48:15 | <sam113101> | rust has traits instead of classes, is haskell similar? |
| 21:48:42 | <geekosaur> | no |
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| 21:49:28 | <geekosaur> | if you insist on looking for OOP inside Haskell, you will either be sadly disappointed or more sadly mislead into insoluble tangles |
| 21:49:39 | <geekosaur> | Haskell is about functions , not objects |
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| 21:50:50 | <tolt> | sam113101: type classes are closest to traits |
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| 21:55:15 | <sm> | You can build a representation of various kinds of OOP in Haskell, but there's no particular support for it in the language |
| 21:55:33 | <sm> | so it won't be very ergonomic |
| 21:55:53 | <dmj`> | @where comonads are objects |
| 21:55:53 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about comonads. |
| 21:56:16 | <mauke> | @where oohaskell |
| 21:56:16 | <lambdabot> | http://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0509027 |
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| 21:56:33 | <dmj`> | https://www.haskellforall.com/2013/02/you-could-have-invented-comonads.html |
| 21:56:50 | <geekosaur> | little point in pointing a newcomer to something that's severely bitrotted (ghc 6.8 broke it iirc) |
| 21:57:09 | <sm> | indeed |
| 21:57:30 | <Leary> | Yeah, you /can/ write good OOP in Haskell, and people do so without even noticing. What you can't do is directly translate the most common flavour of OOP into Haskell without making a terrible mess. |
| 21:57:33 | <monochrom> | I will say that Rust traits are similar to Haskell classes, but this is harnassing the huge vagueness of "similar" for your comfort, not informative nor normative. "Tuesday is like Monday, but different." https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/tautologies.html #0 |
| 21:58:09 | <dmj`> | sam113101: you won't miss all those null checks in OOP, no "new" in Haskell. |
| 21:59:16 | <dmj`> | not having to deal with null makes you healthier as a person |
| 21:59:57 | <monochrom> | new is orthogonal to OOP. Also null is orthogonal to both OOP and new. OCaml has OOP without null and IIRC without new. |
| 22:00:29 | <geekosaur> | (strongly deprecated since OCaml 2.0 though) |
| 22:00:32 | <mauke> | technically also true of Perl |
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| 22:13:51 | <dmj`> | rust is by default immutable, pass by value, with opt-in laziness and mutability, haskell is default immutable, pass by value, but default laziness and opt-in mutability. rust traits aren't compiled w/ dictionaries, and I don't know how rust existentials are handled |
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| 22:47:49 | <sm> | there are *so many* characteristics within "OOP" and "FP" that are orthogonal or at best related |
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| 22:48:40 | <sm> | until we can name and explain every one of them there'll be no end to the discussions :) |
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| 22:50:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I guess this is all related to today's, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41901577 |
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