Logs on 2024-10-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:52:28 | <Axman6> | sam113101: traits (among many other features of Rust were strongly inspured by Haskell's type classes - https://readmedium.com/ideas-from-other-languages-that-influenced-rust-8ffb5589b0fe |
| 00:52:37 | <Axman6> | s/Rust/Rust) |
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| 01:15:15 | <sm> | historical trivia from the original 1982 traits paper: "Multiple-inheritance subclassing is a valid and useful method for organizing object-oriented software; as demonstrated by the existence of the Star Workstation. The complexity of the Star WS software has been controlled by object-orientation first, subclassing second and multiple-inheritance third. The Traits Model is a reasonable approach to multiple- inheritance subclassing. ... Eric Harslem |
| 01:15:15 | <sm> | allowed us to apply this unproven software technique to a large and important piece of software - successfully. Dan Ingalls, Alan Borning, and Dave Gifford all later noted the similarities between the traits approach and the flavors approach of the MIT LISP machine. |
| 01:15:55 | <sm> | https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/966873.806468 |
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| 01:42:47 | <meejah> | l/window 41 |
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| 01:49:17 | <dmj`> | rust inlines the instances though I think, haskell uses dictionary passing, and rust doesn't support polymorphic recursion unlike haskell |
| 01:51:08 | <dmj`> | monomorphization and polymorphic recursion don't play well |
| 01:51:24 | <dmj`> | unless you implement something like intensional type analysis |
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| 02:06:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The main reason why I like row types is that they are super versatile. Want to do imperative programming? We have effect systems. Want to do OOP? We have every OOP blessing without its curse. Want to do FP? Sure, just do it as normal. Want to do logic programming? Implement MiniKanren. Want to mix all of them? Sure, everything integrates well |
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| 02:10:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> This even works (or seems to work) for optimizations! Want automatic allocation of ADTs? Evidence passing. Want automatic deallocations of ADTs? Perceus et al. Want to join multiple allocations into one for speed? Just inline and combine. Want unboxing? Evidence-pass the size of the type. Want to specialize a polymorphic record type so it can be unboxed? Just defunctionalize and specialize as normal and then... |
| 02:10:09 | <haskellbridge> | ... evidence-pass the sizes obtained |
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| 02:13:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It even seems to work for generics! Want to use a staged type theory to generate generics at compile time? Just pattern match on the type. Want to do it at runtime? Use recursion, some mapping and clever types. Typecase on the term level? Use the any label. First class patterns? Use the any label. First class messages? Use the any label. Function with arguments in any order? Use the any label and some clever types |
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| 02:14:54 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The list goes on and on. A good row typing system saves a lot of headaches. That is why I want them on my lang lol (oh also this is re:OOP-vs-FP) |
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| 02:53:47 | <monochrom> | I would like row types too. :) |
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| 03:06:10 | <geekosaur> | sadly, it seems all we are going to get is hacks that pretend to be a viable record system |
| 03:07:12 | <geekosaur> | …I wish I understood System F well enough to know why row types supposedly don't fit it |
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| 04:24:01 | <Axman6> | Bowuigi: That sounds like a great blog post to me... got any free time? =) |
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| 05:06:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Sadly not much free time so far, I have a lot of exams these weeks lol |
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| 05:06:57 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> geekosaur System F fits row types really well tho, like HM and F omega (a few papers use all three and don't complain) |
| 05:07:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> System FC/GHC Core might be harder to adapt to though; coercions and all the fancy stuff could become problematic, no idea |
| 05:09:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Also GHC is heavily optimized to work with ADTs, naive attempts won't achieve the expected performance. The same thing happened when researchers ported Perceus (+extensions) to OCaml |
| 05:11:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> A quick rundown of the features you need for all the stuff I mentioned would be pretty cool ngl, tho some ideas were born in this chat and have no real implementation or even proper semantics. In particular, I really think the specialization should work, but I never tried writing it down |
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| 05:14:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> What I did try to write is an effect system based on the Van Laarhoven Free Monad. It worked but you need fancy stuff if you want a reasonable feature set (type lambdas, most importantly, and possibly row concatenation, which can't be compiled efficiently yet) |
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| 10:52:35 | <tromp> | I'm getting a compilation error: • No instance for (MonadFail N.NonEmpty) |
| 10:53:49 | <tromp> | doing A b <- ts where ts is N.NonEmpty Term |
| 10:54:08 | <mauke> | what do you want to happen if the pattern doesn't match? |
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| 10:54:27 | <tromp> | looks like it wants to skip those |
| 10:54:38 | <mauke> | ? |
| 10:55:12 | <tromp> | it's after a N.sort $ do |
| 10:55:26 | <tromp> | and followed by just b |
| 10:58:28 | <merijn> | tromp: Any pattern that can fail incurs a MonadFail constraint when used on the left hand of <- |
| 10:58:53 | <merijn> | tromp: And N.NonEmpty (according to GHC) does not have a MonadFail instance |
| 10:59:27 | <tromp> | i took the code from https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/105991/combinatory-conundrum/106008#106008 (top answer) |
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| 11:00:14 | <tromp> | and the author provides the output of running the code |
| 11:00:42 | <kaol> | Monad used to have "fail" as a part of it and old code on the Internet may still expect that to work. |
| 11:01:09 | <tromp> | it's a post from 2017 |
| 11:01:41 | <kaol> | That's "old" for the purpose of this difference. |
| 11:02:24 | <tromp> | oh, i can still run it online with the "Try it online! link |
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| 11:03:28 | <kaol> | They may be using an old GHC version or they may give it a catch all MonadFail instance. But this is the reason it won't work if you try it at home. |
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| 11:04:38 | <kaol> | If your purpose is to just follow some code at home, you may define your own MonadFail instance. But watch out if you think of doing the same in production. |
| 11:04:46 | <tromp> | Thanks for help |
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| 11:07:36 | <kaol> | To expand on this a bit more: Having fail in Monad was always ugly since it's not a part of the definition in category theory and for many monads, you can't really do anything but invoke "error" if a pattern match failure happens and that's a silent source of partial functions. |
| 11:08:53 | <mauke> | ~(A b) <- ts |
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| 11:10:32 | <kaol> | I always forget about lazy patterns. |
| 11:10:57 | <tromp> | yep; that "fixes" it |
| 11:11:29 | <kaol> | Still going to be a run time program breaking event if it happens. |
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| 12:16:21 | <kqr> | Is there a way to specify in a cabal file that certain modules in a library should not be exposed publically, but available to a test-suite? |
| 12:19:12 | <Hecate> | hmm |
| 12:19:29 | <Hecate> | Alas I don't think there's such a granularity of exposure available |
| 12:20:59 | <Leary> | kqr: Put them in a private sub-library. |
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| 12:28:13 | <merijn> | Hecate: Not directly, but Leary's approach works in recent enough cabals |
| 12:28:38 | <kqr> | Leary, Ah, that could work. Do you have an example of that anywhere? |
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| 12:29:08 | <merijn> | kqr: The cabal docs have some examples of multiple libraries and public visibility |
| 12:29:21 | <merijn> | And I *might* have used this trick already, I need to check |
| 12:30:03 | <tomsmeding> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-package-description-file.html#library |
| 12:30:05 | <merijn> | ah, no, I was going to, but didn't get around to it yet |
| 12:30:34 | <tomsmeding> | kqr: a "sublibrary" is just a 'library' block in the cabal file that has a name |
| 12:30:47 | <tomsmeding> | it otherwise works precisely like a library |
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| 12:31:13 | <tomsmeding> | so it's essentially just a separate library that happens to be a private component of your package |
| 12:31:34 | <merijn> | And then you can simply re-export the relevant public modules/bindings in the final "public" library |
| 12:31:56 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: so you mean putting _all_ modules in the private sublibrary, and then re-exporting the public modules from the public library? |
| 12:32:06 | <Hecate> | ah indeed, Leary might have what you want there |
| 12:32:21 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Well, all the modules that contain private bits |
| 12:32:38 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I'd keep as much of the "public" stuff in the actual public lib |
| 12:32:50 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 12:32:58 | <tomsmeding> | if you can factor the library that way, that would be nicest |
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| 12:55:14 | <kqr> | Ah, that sounds very nice. Thanks! |
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| 14:37:19 | <famubu> | Hi. When using GADTs extension, it is possible to have like `data NewType :: Ty -> Type where ...`, right? Where `Ty` is another type. |
| 14:37:28 | <famubu> | I'm getting error at the `Type` part. |
| 14:37:35 | <famubu> | Is there an extension that needs to be enabled? |
| 14:37:47 | <famubu> | Error is: Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Type’ |
| 14:37:59 | <geekosaur> | private sublibs work in most versions of cabal, it's public ones that require recent ones |
| 14:45:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> famubu either change Type to * or use NoStarIsType (and maybe import the actual Type kind) |
| 14:46:09 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I thought GADTs enabled NoStarIsType by default tho, might have confused it with DataKinds or something |
| 14:46:36 | <geekosaur> | you still need to import it, I think it's in Data.Kind |
| 14:46:57 | <geekosaur> | ghc doesn't automatically define it with NoStarIsType |
| 14:48:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Ah, that makes sense |
| 14:49:04 | <famubu> | Thanks! Needed to import Data.Kind after having GADTs. |
| 14:49:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Wait how does Type look when you do not have Data.Kind.Type nor StarIsType? |
| 14:49:35 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Like, in the REPL |
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| 14:55:35 | <tomsmeding> | % :k Maybe |
| 14:55:35 | <yahb2> | Maybe :: * -> * |
| 14:56:26 | <tomsmeding> | Bowuigi: GHC defines -XTypeInType by default, and in fact -XNoTypeInType has been unsupported for ages; perhaps this is what you were thinking of? |
| 14:56:49 | <tomsmeding> | % :set -XNoStarIsType |
| 14:56:49 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:56:54 | <tomsmeding> | % :k Maybe |
| 14:56:54 | <yahb2> | Maybe :: Type -> Type |
| 14:56:56 | <geekosaur> | looks to me like it prints "Type" but you can't use it yourself |
| 14:57:00 | <geekosaur> | ahh, consistency |
| 14:58:01 | <famubu> | TypeInType also gives a deprecation warning. |
| 14:58:07 | <tomsmeding> | and it does nothing |
| 14:59:02 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> tomsmeding no, NoTypeInType was supposed to fix the Type :: Type inconsistency, but since Haskell was already logically inconsistent, it was deprecated because it did more harm than good |
| 14:59:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> In particular, now we can get dependent kinds (sort of) |
| 15:00:22 | <tomsmeding> | Bowuigi: that sounds reasonable, but what was the "no" for? What you say doesn't sound like it contradicts what I said :p |
| 15:00:36 | <tomsmeding> | oh that it was the thing you were thinking of I guess |
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| 15:02:59 | <geekosaur> | Bouwigi, NoTypeInType is how ghc used to work. but ghc went the quasi-dependent-types direction, thus TypeInType. (The inconsistency isn't observable in Haskell, but I've seen an Agda proof case for it.) |
| 15:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | oh isn't it? I tried to reproduce it in haskell a while back but I couldn't do it, sounds like that is expected |
| 15:03:31 | <geekosaur> | NoTypeInType was removed because it was becoming too hard to support it while moving forward on Dependent Haskell |
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| 15:04:02 | <geekosaur> | tomsmeding, correct. even in Agda you need to do extra work to observe it |
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| 15:04:25 | <geekosaur> | (Cubical Agda, which IIRC allows it access to the whole lambda cube) |
| 15:04:55 | <dolio> | No, cubical agda is something else. |
| 15:04:56 | <tomsmeding> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 15:05:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> No wait the Russell paradox doesn't need a Cubical Type Theory |
| 15:05:41 | <geekosaur> | oh okay, shows what I know 😛 |
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| 15:07:05 | <dolio> | It's not super easy to come up with the right terms just from Type : Type. Less easy than in set theory. It's somehwat easier if you allow other features than just functions, I think. |
| 15:09:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> https://ionathan.ch/2021/11/24/inconsistencies.html this explains many inconsistencies better than I can rn, Girard-Russell is the first one |
| 15:12:27 | <dolio> | Anyhow, it doesn't really matter, because that would be the most difficult way to write a fixpoint operator in Haskell. |
| 15:12:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> {-# OPTIONS --type-in-type #-} |
| 15:12:30 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/JmsRildBqQawmqczaGKzvBaA/0Vl4TQmPlUs (27 lines) |
| 15:13:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yeah definitely, TypeInType is better for this use case |
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| 15:17:45 | <mauke> | https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/JmsRildBqQawmqczaGKzvBaA/0Vl4TQmPlUs RIP unicode |
| 15:17:52 | <mauke> | it's served with no encoding |
| 15:18:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> That is how type theory felt at first lmao |
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| 15:32:41 | <geekosaur> | hm, it renders okay here. browser settings? |
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| 15:33:51 | <geekosaur> | I'm a bit busy today but I'll file a bug upstream if there isn't one already (serving pastebins is new; it used to hand that off to Synapse but that was disabled recently) |
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| 15:37:56 | <mauke> | haha, the "repair text encoding" menu entry fixes the display in firefox, but then it immediately asks me if I want to translate the page from Greek to English |
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| 15:38:28 | <geekosaur> | lol |
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| 15:43:11 | <dolio> | Yeah, that version uses a data type, which makes it easier. |
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| 15:45:34 | <mauke> | geekosaur: apparently firefox defaults to latin-1 in the absence of any encoding information and there is no way to change that default |
| 15:46:27 | <geekosaur> | interesting. not even an extension? (I think Chrome has an extension for fancy encoding defaults including per-site defaults) |
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| 15:47:39 | <mauke> | extensions can mess with response headers, so there probably is an add-on for that |
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| 15:50:56 | <geekosaur> | hm, the above said, I think those are served directly by my nginx instance so I'll probably need to mess with its config. should still be documented though |
| 15:51:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Brave mobile also defaults to not-UTF-8, maybe it is standard? |
| 15:53:23 | <mauke> | I mean, the web predates utf-8, so it makes sense to make it opt-in and fall back to an 8-bit encoding |
| 15:56:30 | <geekosaur> | yes, it's an old standard |
| 15:56:37 | <geekosaur> | but it's 2024, not 1998 |
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| 15:56:53 | <c_wraith> | backwards compatibility is a curse |
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| 15:58:26 | <geekosaur> | and it's not difficult to attempt decode as UTF-8 and fallback to ISO8859-1 |
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| 15:59:08 | <c_wraith> | I think browsers stopped doing that because some documents are ambiguous, and they'd change encoding as you browsed around a site |
| 15:59:18 | <c_wraith> | which was awful for reproducability |
| 16:00:29 | <c_wraith> | anyway, text/plain is a complete lie of a mime type. There's no such thing as plain text when encodings exist! the ;charset hack makes it usable, but the mime type itself is still a lie |
| 16:00:56 | <geekosaur> | maybe Firefox stopped doing it (and relatives: Brave is Firefox with the branding and tracking removed, no?). Chrome still seems to do it |
| 16:03:34 | <yushyin> | brave is chromium-based, afaik |
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| 16:04:59 | <geekosaur> | hm, seems so. which one's the un-trackered Firefox? |
| 16:07:34 | <c_wraith> | there are hundreds of them, and they're all basically forgotten. (Lots try to keep the old plugin architecture around too, and fail to keep up with security patches because backporting them is hard) |
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| 17:05:27 | <geekosaur> | mauke: does that paste work any better now? |
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| 17:09:18 | <geekosaur> | (supposedly it should be serving as utf8 now. but I won't be in a position to check until I get back from counseling later this afternoon) |
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| 17:15:16 | <geekosaur> | nemmind, it didn't bother to tell me the container was failing to load 😞 |
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| 17:17:45 | <geekosaur> | okay, back up, should be serving utf-8 explicitly |
| 17:19:20 | <dolio> | Oh, that isn't actually the easier version I expected. It's just removing all the lines in Hurken's paradox. |
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| 17:34:58 | <yushyin> | geekosaur: librewolf |
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| 18:01:21 | <monochrom> | geekosaur: I can confirm that `curl -i that_url` receives header "content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8" now. |
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| 18:16:00 | <mauke> | geekosaur: displays fine, dev tools show "text/plain; charset=utf-8" |
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| 18:18:17 | <mauke> | other firefox forks I've vaguely heard of: waterfox, pale moon, iceweasel, icecat |
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| 18:24:25 | <monochrom> | I think I heard of iceweasel. |
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| 18:24:56 | <monochrom> | But we're talking about "back in my days 1-2 decades ago" :) |
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| 20:18:06 | <geekosaur> | yeh, iceweasel I didn't think was even around any more |
| 20:18:16 | <geekosaur> | I think ubuntu used to ship it at one point |
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| 20:23:28 | <mauke> | IIRC the patches debian applied meant they couldn't safely use the "firefox" trademark/branding anymore, so they switched to iceweasel |
| 20:25:18 | <tomsmeding> | iirc not even the specific patches they applied, but that they applied patches at all |
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| 20:30:00 | <geekosaur> | that sounds right, yes |
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| 20:52:07 | <tomsmeding> | I tried using the new Control.Exception.annotateIO to annotate an exception thrown by an `error` call somewhere deep in a recursive function. But I'm not seeing those annotations in the output, while HasCallStack and -prof annotations do. Should I enable something first? |
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| 21:33:37 | <tomsmeding> | hm, I do see them in a reproducer; looks like my problem is specific to Hedgehog |
| 21:36:06 | <tomsmeding> | hm, but hedgehog just calls displayException... |
| 21:37:37 | <tomsmeding> | can one sensibly catch exceptions in IO inside unsafePerformIO? |
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| 21:51:28 | <geekosaur> | not really |
| 21:53:10 | <tomsmeding> | I see, and annotateIO is based on catching and rethrowing an exception |
| 21:55:08 | <geekosaur> | hedgehog is known to do something or other with output (unsure whether it's stdout, stderr, or the RTS's output which may map to stderr but is handled differently (`debugBelch2` in `HsBase.h`, which for example is foreign-imported by `Debug.Trace`) |
| 21:55:53 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: this is not about output handling, really; here, hedgehog calls displayException on an exception it gets from user (test) code https://github.com/hedgehogqa/haskell-hedgehog/blob/94dfee5f9f4c5ba4280d4d294fc414e8caea50a1/hedgehog/src/Hedgehog/Internal/Property.hs#L919 |
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| 21:56:18 | <tomsmeding> | that exception, in my case, is thrown within an unsafePerformIO block, and within that block it is repeatedly annotated (hopefully) with annotateIO |
| 21:56:49 | <tomsmeding> | that displayException comes straight from Control.Exception, and in a simple test ( https://play.haskell.org/saved/kXwMJ4AK ), that does definitely include the annotation |
| 21:57:17 | <tomsmeding> | so if there is something finicky with catching exceptions in unsafePerformIO then that's the most likely cause |
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| 22:00:45 | <geekosaur> | I know `bracket` and friends don't work, but I think the lower level catchers do |
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