Logs on 2024-10-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:17:58 | <Axman6> | :S |
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| 00:49:48 | <dmj`> | :] |
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| 03:33:18 | <synchrom1> | :/ |
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| 06:19:00 | <jackdk> | :D |
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| 07:09:25 | <dmj`> | =D |
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| 09:04:03 | <Leary> | What do people recommend for CI these days? I basically just want something to check all the components of my library build against tested-with GHCs. |
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| 09:06:13 | <mauke> | if your code is already on github, you can set up a "workflow" or "action" or whatever it's called now |
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| 09:10:24 | <JuanDaugherty> | i just actually CI |
| 09:11:16 | <JuanDaugherty> | which lone wolves can do |
| 09:12:44 | <JuanDaugherty> | another case of semantic drift into grift |
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| 09:20:16 | Digitteknohippie | is now known as Digit |
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| 09:27:09 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: Hecate had a thing |
| 09:28:48 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: https://github.com/Kleidukos/get-tested |
| 09:29:10 | <tomsmeding> | never used, just saw it being announced a while ago |
| 09:29:53 | <Hecate> | hi hi |
| 09:30:10 | <Hecate> | Leary: yeah, get-tested is the best if you use Github Actions |
| 09:30:52 | <Leary> | Cheers. It'll be on github soon, so I'll have a poke at that. |
| 09:31:54 | <tomsmeding> | Hecate: put the keyword "CI" somewhere in the repo description or something, I searched for "Hecate CI haskell" and couldn't find anything, had to search for "actions" on your github |
| 09:32:12 | <tomsmeding> | as you can see it took me more than 1.5 minutes to find it! |
| 09:33:29 | <Hecate> | tomsmeding: got it |
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| 09:38:30 | <Hecate> | unrelated, I have made a thing: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/wiki/Deprecation-Process |
| 09:38:34 | <Hecate> | please gib feedback |
| 09:39:07 | <jackdk> | I'm still on https://github.com/haskell-ci/haskell-ci but it's a bit annoying these days since new releases don't come through to Hackage |
| 09:40:01 | <tomsmeding> | Hecate: you've made a thing again? You make so many things! |
| 09:40:30 | <Hecate> | jackdk: yep |
| 09:40:44 | <Hecate> | tomsmeding: I swear I'll stop |
| 09:40:48 | <Hecate> | when I'm dead. |
| 09:44:19 | <tomsmeding> | exactly as it should be |
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| 12:14:01 | <vektor> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/VrrXMpLr - am I missing something about the way QuickCheck's "within" (aka timeout) is supposed to be used? This thing loops forever. |
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| 12:16:44 | <Leary> | vektor: Non-allocating loop maybe. There's no escape if the GC doesn't have a chance to act. |
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| 12:19:38 | <vektor> | I see. If the presumed loop in my unit under test is also non-allocating I'm a little hosed. I mean, I suppose I could do a substantially more manual approach to troubleshoot. |
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| 12:22:02 | <geekosaur> | compiling the unit with -fno-omit-yields may help |
| 12:23:26 | <vektor> | Looking into it, it might've just been that QuickCheck generates obscenely large test cases and my UUT is simply slower than expected. Seems I should check my assumptions about "sized" and such. |
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| 12:24:56 | <vektor> | As in, I've had test cases terminate gracefully (and then run into the timout) after >10 seconds, which I had thought to be practically impossible. |
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| 14:03:56 | <SrPx> | I've just refactored a "Term" type in Haskell to receive a type argument 'a' (i.e., (PreTerm a)), and created the equivalent of the old Term as 'newtype Term = T (PreTerm Term)'. but now I need to write (T (App _ _)) instead of (App _ _) etc. everywhere. is it possible to make this change work without refactoring the whole codebase? |
| 14:06:55 | <ncf> | pattern synonym? |
| 14:08:04 | <int-e> | can you get away with a type alias? |
| 14:08:50 | <int-e> | oh wait, never mind |
| 14:09:04 | int-e | missed the recursion in the newtype |
| 14:09:09 | <SrPx> | int-e: haskell complains `type Term = PreTerm Term` is recursive 💀 |
| 14:09:14 | <SrPx> | @ncf reading rn ty |
| 14:09:14 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: unpf rc bf |
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| 14:34:45 | <Leary> | SrPx: I don't fancy the approach taken by the recursion-schemes library, but it's suitable for making such a change to an existing code base with minimal refactoring. You can keep your old `data Term` and let it generate `data TermF` equivalent to your `PreTerm` and functions for converting between, etc. |
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| 16:16:04 | <zzz> | is there something like a WordMap that works with Word intead of Int in a way that is as efficient as IntMap? |
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| 16:21:24 | <zzz> | i'm obviously trying to avoid Word/Int conversion overhead |
| 16:22:20 | <geekosaur> | not that I'm aware of |
| 16:22:47 | <geekosaur> | if you're absolutely hell-bent on premature optimization, just unsafeCoerce everything |
| 16:24:38 | <zzz> | i'm trying to make negative keys unrepresentable |
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| 16:31:39 | <dolio> | I've written my own partial wrapper using a 'things that can be represented as Int' class (didn't use Enum, because I don't think it's ideal for this). I don't know of any packaged version. |
| 16:32:20 | <zzz> | dolio: yes, i also came to the conclusion that Enum is not ideal |
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| 16:39:18 | <EvanR> | you can use a newtype around Int which is guarded with the module system to not allow negatives |
| 16:39:33 | <EvanR> | and then there's an Enum-based Map |
| 16:39:49 | <EvanR> | oh I'm late |
| 16:40:55 | <EvanR> | but this is a data point in a more general situation where you want to use a subset of Int somewhere without paying performance costs |
| 16:41:34 | <EvanR> | (if you literally wanted to use Word for its own sake, which has additional values that Int doesn't, that's another story) |
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| 16:45:11 | <EvanR> | with a newtype over Int you could use safe coercions instead of unsafeCoerce |
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| 16:46:53 | <zzz> | EvanR: how so? with no performance costs? |
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| 16:47:48 | <EvanR> | normal use of newtype unwrapping gets optimized away as I understand it, but you can also coerce between newtypes that have the same underlying representation |
| 16:47:55 | <EvanR> | in a type safe way |
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| 17:10:34 | <zzz> | sigh i'll just use IntMap and be mindful |
| 17:11:39 | <zzz> | can't forget that minBound is 1000... and maxBound is 01111... |
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| 17:33:33 | <EvanR> | are you actually using the binary representation, but Word and Int feel very much like unsigned and "int" in C |
| 17:34:04 | <EvanR> | defined by their behavior when asked to do things with representable values, not bits |
| 17:34:18 | <EvanR> | (though unsigned has additional guarantees about overflow) |
| 17:34:33 | <EvanR> | (expressed as mod power of 2) |
| 17:35:24 | <EvanR> | it may be that IntMap internally uses the bits |
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| 17:36:02 | <EvanR> | but "can't be negative" is a higher level condition which survives changes in representation and precision |
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| 18:00:01 | <zzz> | EvanR: i'm just used to think in binary, maybe "make negative keys unrepresentable" was a bad way to explain myself |
| 18:00:14 | <zzz> | s/think/thinking |
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| 18:01:07 | <zzz> | thinks like minBound /= 0 trip me up sometimes |
| 18:01:13 | <zzz> | s/thinks/things |
| 18:01:17 | <EvanR> | usually when I see Word, I expect it's because they want the very large values for some reason, or yeah you want all values 0 to 2^n - 1 |
| 18:01:48 | <EvanR> | where n is 64 |
| 18:02:14 | <EvanR> | which is why it doesn't play nice with Int APIs |
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| 18:04:48 | <zzz> | i just hate stuff like length returning Int so that's my problem |
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| 18:06:41 | <EvanR> | yeeeeah |
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| 18:36:07 | <sinbad> | I am having trouble with using the gi-secret package. I'd like to access the default keyring (on my linux machine) using functions from GI.Secret.Functions. In particular, calling passwordLookupSync results in compiling errors, see https://paste.tomsmeding.com/CiR7TchN |
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| 18:38:44 | <sinbad> | Whatever it is worth the same call works with the python bindings to the same libsecret library. |
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| 18:41:59 | <sinbad> | Any advice would be appreciated. |
| 18:42:17 | <briandaed> | shouldn't you use 4 params instead of 3? |
| 18:44:08 | <mauke> | briandaed: why? |
| 18:44:24 | <briandaed> | ok, which version of the package you use right now? |
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| 18:45:10 | <briandaed> | mauke: for the latest package version it takes 4 params, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-secret-0.0.18/docs/GI-Secret-Functions.html#g:method:passwordLookup |
| 18:45:34 | <geekosaur> | ]aren't you confused? I see 3 parameters in the latest version |
| 18:45:53 | <geekosaur> | don't forget the last arrow points to a result type, not a parameter |
| 18:46:20 | <briandaed> | meh, right, I'm blind |
| 18:46:41 | <mauke> | sinbad: do you get a different error if you change the last argument to (Nothing :: Maybe Cancellable)? |
| 18:46:46 | <mauke> | just trying random things here |
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| 18:47:14 | <zzz> | *pseudorandom |
| 18:48:24 | <mauke> | making an educated wish |
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| 18:53:18 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, is there any library similar to rust's tokio in haskell? |
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| 18:54:11 | <identity> | lxsameer: probably the 'async' library is what you're looking for |
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| 18:54:51 | <sinbad> | briandaed: oops, the list of search flags is missing from my call according the most recent doc. I need to check what version I am using |
| 18:55:28 | <zzz> | identity: lxsameer: for networking specifically i recall some other library built on top of async |
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| 18:56:31 | <sinbad> | mauke: where is Cancellable coming from? |
| 18:57:12 | <zzz> | lxsameer: Conduit and Streamly for streams |
| 18:57:33 | <zzz> | Warp for http server |
| 18:58:01 | <zzz> | (Warp is to Haskell what hyper (tokio based) is to Rust) |
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| 18:58:57 | <lxsameer> | zzz: awesome, thank you |
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| 19:05:15 | <mauke> | sinbad: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gio-2.0.35/docs/GI-Gio-Objects-Cancellable.html#t:Cancellable |
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| 19:06:35 | <geekosaur> | one little issue I noticed is that the error mentions `it` which means you were doing this in ghci, not a Haskell program, which might affect things |
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| 19:08:00 | <sinbad> | geekosaur: yes I might. however with the full program I get the same error |
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| 19:12:55 | <sinbad> | I ma using the latest version (0.0.18) and the passwordLookupSync take 3 arguments |
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| 19:22:51 | <zzz> | what should i keep in mind when chosing between `Set x` and `Map x Bool` for setting/checking flags? |
| 19:23:22 | <zzz> | performance-wise |
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| 19:23:40 | <geekosaur> | I think there's less a performance question than a presence issue |
| 19:23:53 | <geekosaur> | that is, do you care about "not specified"? |
| 19:24:56 | <zzz> | no, in the case of going with Map, all keys will be initialized from the start |
| 19:25:09 | <mauke> | Set x ~ Map x () |
| 19:25:36 | <zzz> | i guess from a moral stance, Set is better because the "not specified" case is unrepresentable |
| 19:25:42 | <geekosaur> | well, presumably they will check the value if it's Map x Bool, which will slightly slow things down |
| 19:25:44 | <zzz> | but i'm thinking about memory management |
| 19:25:58 | <geekosaur> | it will cost a little more memory, yes |
| 19:26:09 | <geekosaur> | Bool won't cost you mugh though |
| 19:26:18 | <geekosaur> | 3 machine words, I think? |
| 19:26:34 | <geekosaur> | sorry, two |
| 19:26:41 | <geekosaur> | pointer to value, constructor tag |
| 19:27:19 | <zzz> | not only that, i'm guessing Map x Bool will allocate a fixed chunk of memory from the start, while Set x will grow and/or shrink? But this is beyond what i understand about the low levels of GHC |
| 19:27:57 | <geekosaur> | eh? they're both trees, one carries a little extra data |
| 19:28:36 | <int-e> | Map x Bool is persistent; rather than modifying values, "updates" will recreate a path in a tree to the updated key and reuse the other parts of the tree. |
| 19:29:15 | <int-e> | That's also true for Set x, but the tree will be smaller. |
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| 19:29:50 | <zzz> | geekosaur: yes, what i mean is that in the case of Map the tree is always the same size, so there won't be any garbage collection on updates |
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| 19:30:13 | <mauke> | no, there absolutely will be |
| 19:30:13 | <int-e> | zzz: that's not correct |
| 19:30:20 | <mauke> | trees aren't modified in place |
| 19:30:36 | <zzz> | mauke: how do Sets grow? |
| 19:30:45 | <zzz> | and shrink? |
| 19:30:56 | <mauke> | by inserting and removing elements? |
| 19:31:11 | <int-e> | You construct new trees, reusing parts of old trees. The new parts are freshly allocated on the heap. |
| 19:31:29 | <int-e> | Unused old parts will eventually be garbage collected. |
| 19:31:34 | <geekosaur> | the point here is that everything is immutable, so an entire tree limb in either case will be replaced which requires the path to that limb to be replaced |
| 19:31:43 | <geekosaur> | but the popinters to other limbs can be reused |
| 19:32:29 | <zzz> | i see |
| 19:33:21 | <mauke> | simplified example using lists: replace2nd :: a -> [a] -> [a]; replace2nd x (h : _ : rest) = h : x : rest |
| 19:33:42 | <mauke> | replacing ("updating") the second element of a list |
| 19:33:53 | <zzz> | so no low level optimization? i can't reason about performance in these cases, it's way beyond my understanding of Haskell |
| 19:34:01 | <mauke> | rest can be reused, but two new nodes are allocated |
| 19:34:21 | <mauke> | corresponding to the (:) |
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| 19:34:55 | <zzz> | mauke: i understand that |
| 19:35:08 | <mauke> | more specifically, the initial part (up to the second element) of the list has to be recreated, and everything further "down" can be reused as is |
| 19:35:17 | <geekosaur> | iirc the cost of the accounting needed to prove that an in-place update is safe would be higher than assuming it's not |
| 19:35:25 | <mauke> | trees work the same way, only there are two "rest" parts |
| 19:36:51 | <zzz> | right |
| 19:36:58 | <mauke> | in trees, everything "above" the replaced element has to be recreated (i.e. all the nodes back up to the root of the tree), but everything else can be reused |
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| 19:37:36 | <mauke> | which is something like a log(n) cost, assuming your tree is balanced |
| 19:38:29 | <mauke> | geekosaur: perceus/koka does the in-place optimization, doesn't it? |
| 19:38:43 | <mauke> | but that's very different from ghc's memory manager |
| 19:38:48 | <geekosaur> | exactly |
| 19:39:20 | <geekosaur> | I know that someone was poking at using a different memory manager with ghc, but it wasn't perceus |
| 19:40:53 | <geekosaur> | I also know they were finding out that replacing ghc's memory manager is a major project |
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| 20:58:09 | <dmj`> | "cycle free" makes perceus a non-starter for ghc no? |
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| 21:02:10 | <justsomeguy> | Can someone help me understand what Traversable is about? Is `traverse` like an applicative fmap? |
| 21:03:52 | <Rembane> | justsomeguy: It's map but also perform an action on each element |
| 21:04:01 | <mauke> | :t traverse |
| 21:04:02 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) |
| 21:04:10 | <mauke> | :t sequence |
| 21:04:11 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 21:04:21 | <mauke> | hah |
| 21:04:43 | <mauke> | :t mapM |
| 21:04:44 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b) |
| 21:04:47 | <justsomeguy> | :t sequenceA |
| 21:04:48 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a) |
| 21:04:53 | <mauke> | it's mapM |
| 21:06:18 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@syn-047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:06:50 | <geekosaur> | mm, I thought Perceus had an answer to cycles |
| 21:06:59 | <geekosaur> | and that was what made it of interest |
| 21:07:16 | <mauke> | a container type is traversable if you can apply an effectful function to each element and then invert the nesting, giving an effect that produces a container, not a container full of effects |
| 21:09:03 | <justsomeguy> | When can I leave out type arguments from an instance declaration like `instance Functor List where { ... }` vs `data Three a b c = Three a b c; instance Functor (Three a b) where { ... }`? |
| 21:09:24 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 21:09:26 | <justsomeguy> | Am I trying to match up the kind signature with the number of args? |
| 21:11:08 | <justsomeguy> | (I'm coming back to my code after a long break and nothing makes sense, lol) |
| 21:11:27 | <mauke> | yes, pretty much |
| 21:11:37 | <mauke> | Functor requires an argument of kind * -> * |
| 21:11:54 | <mauke> | i.e. a type constructor of one argument |
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| 21:16:25 | <dolio> | geekosaur: The 'answer' is to not be anything like Haskell. |
| 21:16:42 | <dolio> | Eager evaluation except for 'coinductive' things, which I assume means there's no sharing. |
| 21:16:54 | <geekosaur> | ah |
| 21:17:27 | <geekosaur> | (funny, I was talking with someone in #ghc last night about that consequence) |
| 21:17:27 | <dolio> | Even though nothing about coinduction implies that. |
| 21:18:38 | <geekosaur> | (they're trying to pick up the pieces of GRIN and along the way asked about using STG for strict languages; I strongly advised against, and things like simulating laziness with `() -> x` came up along with their limitations) |
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| 21:19:24 | <justsomeguy> | [justsomeguy(Ziw)] |
| 21:19:26 | <justsomeguy> | [justsomeguy(Ziw)] |
| 21:19:28 | <justsomeguy> | [justsomeguy(Ziw)] |
| 21:19:30 | <justsomeguy> | [justsomeguy(Ziw)] |
| 21:19:37 | <geekosaur> | uh |
| 21:19:49 | <justsomeguy> | Sorry: Middle clicked by mistake. I have to disable that shortcut. |
| 21:20:30 | <justsomeguy> | (Middle click is paste on Linux, apparently.) |
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| 21:20:52 | <geekosaur> | interesting it included your umodes(?) |
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| 21:21:13 | <geekosaur> | and yes, for historical reasons middle click is paste in X11 and possibly carried over into Wayland |
| 21:21:16 | <mauke> | probably double-clicked in the status bar before |
| 21:21:38 | <mauke> | mine currently says: [23:21] [mauke(+Ziw)] [3:LiberaChat/#haskell(+Cnt)] |
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| 21:32:46 | <justsomeguy> | It's kind of neat that I can sometimes solve problems just by trying to compile and correcting the errors one-by-one. |
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| 21:53:58 | <EvanR> | if it type checks, it's right |
| 21:54:40 | <EvanR> | the types are infallible like HAL9000, or the pope |
| 21:54:51 | <monochrom> | That's after you know how to interpret the error messages. :) |
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| 22:03:08 | <justsomeguy> | Haskell error messages can be gnarly, sometimes, when there's a lot of polymorphism. |
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| 22:06:21 | <zero> | just found out that you can have uninitiated record fields. ugh |
| 22:06:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes.. you get good at pattern-matching / distilling them |
| 22:06:44 | <EvanR> | there should be a warning for that |
| 22:06:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> +(error messages) |
| 22:07:00 | <EvanR> | constructing a record without defining all the fields |
| 22:07:11 | <zero> | there is a warning message |
| 22:07:13 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * youwill |
| 22:07:18 | <zero> | imo it should be an error |
| 22:07:18 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> * you will |
| 22:07:27 | <EvanR> | you can set warnings = errors xD |
| 22:07:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes, that's what -Werror is for |
| 22:08:02 | <EvanR> | but since any given value may be an undefined or an infinite loop, it still doesn't fully save you |
| 22:08:24 | <EvanR> | strict fields in the record will make it easier to notice sooner |
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| 22:09:25 | <monochrom> | uninited fields = initialized to undefined |
| 22:10:47 | <EvanR> | [1, let x = x in x, 4, 8, 16] |
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| 22:11:04 | <EvanR> | can I haz warning |
| 22:11:26 | <sm> | oops sorry for edits |
| 22:12:25 | <EvanR> | IRC returns you to a jane austen-like time where you had to write out your whole message with no typos and perfect grammar the first time |
| 22:12:55 | ← | sm parts (~znc@plaintextaccounting/sm) () |
| 22:13:54 | <monochrom> | Clearly, I only simulate to write perfectly the first time by proofreading and editing multiple times before I press enter. :) |
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| 22:15:04 | <EvanR> | nobody got time for that |
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| 22:17:17 | <sm> | I'll try that again: |
| 22:17:20 | <sm> | I admire your vision EvanR, I shall try to keep it in mind. |
| 22:17:30 | <zero> | enter keys should require higher actuation force than the others |
| 22:17:47 | <EvanR> | they should require a license |
| 22:18:03 | <int-e> | EvanR: don't give the manufacturers ideas |
| 22:18:13 | <zero> | [ ] I have read and agree to the terms of pressing this key. |
| 22:18:58 | <EvanR> | keyboard not detected. Press any key to continue |
| 22:19:10 | <int-e> | EvanR: though it'll probably be structured differently; you get the return key for free but enabling backspace will require a subscription |
| 22:19:13 | <zero> | _Select all squares with *traffic lights*_ |
| 22:19:20 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 22:20:24 | <zero> | "Before pressing this key: Have you considered a donation? [ ] 5$ [ ] 10$ [ ] 20$ (other options) |
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| 22:20:51 | <tomsmeding> | the keys will have small embedded LEDs that make crude pictures, and you should press the keys that look like traffic lights |
| 22:21:43 | <zero> | You have reached your daily limit for the Enter key. Please wait XX seconds. TIRED OF WAITING? CLICK [HERE] FOR ENTER PREMIUM* |
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| 22:23:48 | ljdarj1 | is now known as ljdarj |
| 22:24:23 | <EvanR> | probably something that will be on phones first |
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| 22:29:56 | <geekosaur> | to be shortly followed by apps that will defeat it |
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| 22:30:41 | <Rembane> | The circle of life |
| 22:30:59 | <zero> | create the problem, sell the solution |
| 22:32:01 | <zero> | this message brought to you by NordVPN |
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| 22:41:37 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 22:45:38 | <zero> | i also just found out that you can't use lazy annotations without StrictData :( |
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| 22:45:51 | <zero> | that's a shame |
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| 23:08:33 | <zero> | help |
| 23:08:43 | <zero> | i have the following line: |
| 23:08:44 | <zero> | quotRem x y = join bimap toEnum $ on quotRem fromEnum x y |
| 23:09:39 | <zero> | why does eta reducing this to |
| 23:09:49 | <zero> | quotRem = join bimap toEnum . on quotRem fromEnum |
| 23:10:04 | <dibblego> | those two expressions are not equivalent |
| 23:10:34 | <zero> | cause a type mismatch in bimap? |
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| 23:11:45 | <zero> | dibblego: they're not? |
| 23:12:08 | <Leary> | `\f g x -> f (g x)` and `\f g x y -> f (g x y)` are not the same. You want the latter and are using the former. |
| 23:12:12 | <dibblego> | quotRem x = join bimap toEnum . on quotRem fromEnum x |
| 23:12:25 | <dibblego> | quotRem = (join bimap toEnum .) . on quotRem fromEnum |
| 23:12:33 | <dibblego> | -- (done without a type checker) |
| 23:12:58 | <int-e> | :t (.)(.)(.) |
| 23:12:59 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c |
| 23:13:09 | <zero> | i see it now. ty |
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