Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-10-30 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:04 × random-jellyfish quits (~developer@user/random-jellyfish) (Quit: Leaving)
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00:02:14 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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00:40:55 × bliminse quits (~bliminse@user/bliminse) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:41:38 Lears is now known as Leary
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00:52:43 × merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
00:53:54 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
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00:56:35 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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01:05:50 × rselim quits (ce261f06ff@user/milesrout) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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01:08:05 × merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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01:27:14 × Natch quits (~natch@c-92-34-7-158.bbcust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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01:30:19 × jleightcap quits (7bc4014b62@user/jleightcap) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
01:30:20 × samhh quits (7569f027cf@2a03:6000:1812:100::e4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
01:30:20 × Ankhers quits (e99e97ef8e@2a03:6000:1812:100::2a2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
01:30:20 × bwolf quits (c3bc363dd1@2a03:6000:1812:100::180) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
01:30:20 × fvr quits (ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
01:30:20 samhh_ is now known as samhh
01:30:33 → Natch joins (~natch@c-92-34-7-158.bbcust.telenor.se)
01:30:44 × morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:31:00 × ljdarj quits (~Thunderbi@user/ljdarj) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
01:31:06 × Inst quits (~Inst@user/Inst) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
01:31:21 <Axman6> @unmtl ExceptT e (StateT e IO) a
01:31:21 <lambdabot> e -> IO (Either e a, e)
01:31:23 → morb joins (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
01:31:28 <Axman6> @unmtl ExceptT e (StateT s IO) a
01:31:28 <lambdabot> s -> IO (Either e a, s)
01:31:41 <Axman6> @unmtl StateT s e (ExceptT e IO) a
01:31:41 <lambdabot> err: `s -> e (ExceptT e IO, s)' is not a type function.
01:31:54 → bwolf joins (c3bc363dd1@2a03:6000:1812:100::180)
01:31:55 → fvr joins (ef3e56ca8b@2a03:6000:1812:100::3c4)
01:32:15 <Axman6> @unmtl StateT s (ExceptT e IO) a
01:32:15 <lambdabot> s -> IO (Either e (a, s))
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05:01:39 → Inst_ joins (~Inst@user/Inst)
05:04:21 × Inst quits (~Inst@user/Inst) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
05:05:24 × merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
05:06:24 × euphores quits (~SASL_euph@user/euphores) (Quit: Leaving.)
05:07:37 Inst_ is now known as Inst
05:07:41 <Inst> thsi is actually pretty great
05:07:42 <Inst> https://www.schoolofhaskell.com/user/snoyberg/random-code-snippets/set-is-not-a-functor
05:07:51 <Inst> simplest and easiest explanation for why Set cannot be a functor
05:13:10 <monochrom> No, it is a strawman argument with doofus Eq and Ord instances.
05:13:46 <monochrom> simplest and easiest example why I disregard snoyberg arguments.
05:13:59 × monochrom quits (trebla@216.138.220.146) (Quit: ZNC 1.9.0+deb2build3 - https://znc.in)
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05:21:28 × merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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05:49:03 <mauke> monochrom: why strawman?
05:51:54 × merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
05:54:11 <jackdk> It proves that `Set.map f . Set.map g` is not `Set.map (f . g)` but says nothing about the fact that you cannot write `instance Functor Set where fmap = Set.map` (you don't have the `Ord b` in scope that is required by `Set.map`)
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06:05:44 <jackdk> And even then it only proves that non-equivalence in the presence of pathological^Wdoofus `Eq`/`Ord` instances
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06:09:50 <mauke> that's like saying all primes are odd because the counterexample of 2 is "doofus"
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06:37:57 <jackdk> Nah all primes are odd once you correct for measurement error
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06:48:18 <Leary> The instances are lawful if the contents of the newtype cannot be inspected, otherwise they're just awful.
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08:33:42 <Inst> jackdk: isn't that more about implementation details?
08:34:04 <Inst> Actually, I see where monochrom is right and Snoyman's wrong here, because the Haskell Set a is not a proper Set, but its interface assumes it is
08:35:37 <Inst> ah, so you can orphan instance Set into Functor, cool, except it's not a true Set you're orphan instancing but rather a size-balanced binary tree
08:37:37 <Inst> cool, Set exports its constructors so Set is technically broken
08:38:32 <Inst> also, the reason I showed up this time was to ask
08:38:55 <Inst> is it true to say that, ignoring laziness, Haskell has no implicit state?
08:39:22 <Inst> i.e, all state is explicit and is notated in the type system (IO / State / Reader ... etc)
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08:46:24 <ph88> Could any type wizards have a look at this code? https://play.haskell.org/saved/io5gf3oy
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08:53:15 <Inst> hmmm, weird, Set(..) should import all the constructors
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08:56:29 <tomsmeding> ph88: https://play.haskell.org/saved/gbALp3A0
08:57:37 <tomsmeding> ph88: a let-binding is lazy, so it cannot generate any type evidence: to be certain that the type evidence you discover (such as equalities) is actually valid, you have to evaluate the proof (the GADT constructor) to WHNF
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08:58:20 <tomsmeding> GHC goes even further and disallows the let-binding altogether, I'm not sure what the technical reason for that is, but it couldn't work anyway
08:59:04 <tomsmeding> (indeed, a bang pattern is insufficient, you really need a case)
08:59:15 <tomsmeding> something to do with scoping of existential type variables, probably
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09:03:31 <tomsmeding> ph88: if you don't like the case then a pattern guard also suffices https://play.haskell.org/saved/HDgQPO9u, and you can even put the `let childName2` as a guard too
09:05:35 <Inst> ah, I misread the CPP, Set only exports the type if it's not ni Testing, so it's opaque
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09:05:47 <tomsmeding> Inst: looking at the haddocks is easier :p
09:05:56 <tomsmeding> the constructors are only exposed from the .Internal module, which seems fine
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09:08:31 <Inst> what's going on with Set, anyways?
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09:09:03 <Inst> empty :: Set a; i.e, without constraint
09:09:30 <Inst> it's possible to create a Set using Set.singleton that, ummm, can't have elements added to or removed from it
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09:12:02 <Inst> i mean, unless i'm wrong about Set, i'm going to stop kicking the tires, I don't think much of containers
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09:15:38 <tomsmeding> that is possible
09:15:41 <tomsmeding> why is that a problem?
09:16:25 <tomsmeding> you can fully consistently create a one-element set and then request a list of all elements in the set in increasing order
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09:16:44 <tomsmeding> not sure what's wrong with that
09:16:49 <tomsmeding> though it's not terribly useful
09:17:07 <Inst> thanks for showing i'm probably wrong about Set being weird
09:17:38 <tomsmeding> the type class system ensures that if you ask for an Ord a dictionary, then you'll always get the same one
09:17:53 <tomsmeding> so Set doesn't need to "save" the dictionary somehow when creating a new set, it can just request it whenever it needs it
09:18:15 <tomsmeding> and you can create a singleton set without needing the dictionary, so why ask for it?
09:23:53 <Inst> so it's a performance optimization
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09:24:11 <Inst> is Set generally (not always) more performant than list, given that it's an ordered size-balanced binary tree?
09:24:25 <tomsmeding> for what operations?
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09:24:39 <tomsmeding> some things are faster for Set, some things are slower
09:25:23 <mauke> preflex: quote
09:25:23 <preflex> <bos> i'm very pleased by the recent progress of the C++ standard. it's gradually eroding the performance advantage of C++ compilers over GHC, without the simons having to do anything.
09:25:29 <mauke> cool, so that's working again
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09:26:01 <Inst> (remember back when people were bragging that GHC was 80% of C++ performance? ;_;)
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09:30:01 <tomsmeding> c++ _compilers_, or the code _generated_ by c++ compilers?
09:31:56 <merijn> ooh, I just joined at the right time for some pedantic opinions :>
09:32:09 <merijn> What are we praising/criticising about C++? ;)
09:33:00 <tomsmeding> https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell?id=1391621#trid1391621
09:33:23 <tomsmeding> sorry, not much depth here :p
09:33:26 <tomsmeding> also /me afk
09:33:33 <mauke> c++ compilers :-)
09:34:07 <merijn> I mean, C++ compilers were never that far ahead of GHC in terms of compilation times anyway >.>
09:34:07 <mauke> preflex: seen merijn
09:34:07 <preflex> merijn was last seen on #haskell 0 seconds ago, saying: I mean, C++ compilers were never that far ahead of GHC in terms of compilation times anyway >.>
09:34:16 <mauke> good, good
09:34:21 <merijn> :O
09:34:49 <merijn> This is like seeing a corpse come back to live
09:34:54 merijn pats preflex
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09:36:49 <mauke> preflex: calc 2 ( + 3
09:36:49 <preflex> 5
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09:56:59 <ph88> tomsmeding, thanks that fixed it for me! How did you know about this solution? And how did you know this was the problem?
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09:58:22 <tomsmeding> mauke: what is... that syntax?
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09:58:53 <tomsmeding> ph88: I guess having run into this problem head-first, somehow figured out how to solve it, and then having had to use this solution about 300x times since?
09:58:55 <tomsmeding> :p
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09:59:13 <tomsmeding> I very disproportionally write heavily typed code so this comes up rather often
09:59:26 <tomsmeding> preflex: calc 2 + ( 3
09:59:26 <preflex> 5
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09:59:37 <tomsmeding> preflex: calc 2 * (3 + 4)
09:59:37 <preflex> 14
09:59:43 <tomsmeding> preflex: calc 2 * 3) + 4
09:59:43 <preflex> 10
09:59:53 <tomsmeding> unused parentheses are just... unused?
09:59:57 <tomsmeding> preflex: calc 2 * (3 + 4
09:59:57 <preflex> 14
10:00:06 <tomsmeding> preflex: calc 3 + 4) * 2
10:00:06 <preflex> 14
10:00:08 <tomsmeding> :o
10:00:12 <tomsmeding> interesting
10:01:08 <ph88> tomsmeding, genius :D
10:01:12 <mauke> enhanced infix notation
10:01:18 <tomsmeding> ph88: if you read the error closely, it also has a hint about what's happening. It says "type variable `a1' would escape its scope", and that the variable is bound my MkEntity
10:01:30 <tomsmeding> so apparently that a1 referes to the 'a' in MkEntity's signature
10:01:34 <tomsmeding> *refers
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10:01:45 <tomsmeding> so what does it mean that 'a' _escapes its scope_?
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10:02:24 <tomsmeding> this has to do with how haskell treats existential types; if you have an existential type variable, then such a thing is _scoped_: it's introduced by some scoping construct (a function argument, case, lambda, etc.), and has some unknown yet rigid meaning inside of that scope
10:02:35 <ph88> i had a feeling about scoping. Though i didn't realize it was because of the let-binding and a case would fix that. Is there any documentation to read about let-bindings and scoping issue?
10:02:37 <tomsmeding> and to preserve soundness, the external type of that construct cannot mention the existential type variable
10:02:50 <tomsmeding> 'let' doesn't make a suitable scope
10:03:25 <ph88> you mentioned before that the let binding is lazy, thus not creating the suitable scope ?
10:03:46 <tomsmeding> ph88: dunno, but this paper is related (it presents a generalisation to Haskell's type system that does allow more flexible existentials) and it's sure to include an explanation of the status quo :p https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3473569
10:03:50 <tomsmeding> (I read this a few years ago)
10:03:58 <tomsmeding> ph88: yes, I think that's what's happening
10:05:03 <mauke> preflex: calc 2 3 *)+ 4
10:05:03 <preflex> 10
10:05:45 <tomsmeding> ph88: hm, seems the paper doesn't really explain the status quo
10:06:24 <tomsmeding> but there are bits and pieces here and there
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10:08:19 <tomsmeding> ph88: second bullet point here https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/existential_quantification.html#restrictions
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10:08:47 <tomsmeding> apparently it's "otherwise the implementation gets even more complicated" :D
10:08:49 <ph88^> thanks! i'll see if i can understand it
10:11:08 <tomsmeding> lol, re the third bullet point: the fact that newtypes cannot be existential leads to this data type https://hackage.haskell.org/package/some-1.0.6/docs/Data-Some.html having a very evil implementation
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10:11:30 <tomsmeding> apparently this is not sufficient reason to lift the restricion :p
10:11:56 <tomsmeding> nice, this list is cool, I should have read it years ago
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10:12:51 <ph88> You mean this list? https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/existential_quantification.html#restrictions
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10:16:48 <tomsmeding> yes
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10:50:50 <jackdk> oh that's evil
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11:11:14 <tomsmeding> ph88: I wrote some text for the error message index so that you can find some of this wisdom there too :) https://github.com/haskellfoundation/error-message-index/pull/548
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11:30:32 <ph88> nice !
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11:34:05 <ph88> tomsmeding, where is your pull going to show up? in the compiler error message or documentation?
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11:37:30 <tomsmeding> ph88: here https://errors.haskell.org/messages/GHC-46956/
11:37:47 <tomsmeding> from GHC 9.6 onwards the diagnostics include a [GHC-46956] marker
11:37:54 <tomsmeding> and in the playground that also links to the error index
11:38:19 <tomsmeding> (try compiling your paste in the playground with >=9.6 ;) )
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11:54:36 <Guest77> asdf
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12:56:57 <Guest77> hello, do we have something like haskell from scratch where they give you a quick guide about haskell overview and how to install it etc
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12:58:52 <Hecate> Guest77: https://www.haskell.org/get-started/ ?
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13:01:04 <Guest77> Thank you buddy Hecate
13:01:14 <Hecate> 👍
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13:05:51 <ph88> tomsmeding, great ! i made them clickable in my terminal too https://bpa.st/7KOIC
13:07:11 <Leary> ph88: Do you need something like that? They're magically clickable in my terminal and I didn't even do anything.
13:08:35 <ph88> Leary what terminal do you use ?
13:08:55 <Leary> kitty
13:12:19 <ph88> didn't work for me, i use alacritty
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15:24:07 <tomsmeding> ph88: you might want to include the [] in the regex
15:24:14 <tomsmeding> but cute!
15:24:57 <tomsmeding> but yeah, ghc uses terminal escape codes that make the thing automatically clickable, but far from all terminals support it
15:25:08 <tomsmeding> gnome-terminal does, apparently kitty does; st does not, and apparently alacritty does not
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15:25:50 <tomsmeding> (side note: why is the error number reported for a hole (`_`) the "variable not in scope" error, that makes little sense)
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15:38:32 <mauke> makes sense to me :-)
15:38:45 <mauke> since you can never bind _, it's never in scope
15:38:53 <tomsmeding> I guess :p
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15:45:11 <tomsmeding> but I felt it was worth a separate example in the error index :) https://github.com/haskellfoundation/error-message-index/pull/549
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16:39:15 <ph88> tomsmeding, on haskell playground the [ ] are also not included in the clickable links ... so i just made it the same as that
16:39:53 <tomsmeding> ph88: that's true, but now your regex might be overly sensitive :p
16:40:11 <tomsmeding> not sure if you can say "match this regex, but only this part is a link"
16:40:12 <ph88> tomsmeding, not sure what's up with alacritty perhaps it can read the terminal escape codes but still needs you to bind an action to that or set highlighting preferences ..
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16:41:07 <ph88> ah sensitive regexes :>
16:41:21 <tomsmeding> apparently this is supported in alacritty, because someone reports imperfections with it https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/issues/8055
16:41:41 <tomsmeding> oh but maybe that's with hints, not with the escape code
16:44:01 <tomsmeding> ph88: https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/commit/694a52bcffeffdc9e163818c3b2ac5c39e26f1ef
16:44:06 <tomsmeding> new in 0.11 apparently
16:45:13 <ph88> weird i have alacritty 0.13.2 and i didn't see it working ..
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16:45:31 <ph88> GHC 9.6.6 dunno if the escape codes were added already in that version
16:45:50 <tomsmeding> ah! no
16:45:51 <ph88> i'll leave it for now, perhaps give it another look in a year or so
16:45:59 <tomsmeding> good call!
16:46:08 <tomsmeding> 9.10 seems to have introduced them
16:46:16 <ph88> ah ye makes sense
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17:53:54 <slack1256> Is there a quick check generator for html already defined on a package?
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18:37:23 <ph88> tomsmeding, have you used linear types yet ?
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19:59:13 <lxsameer> hey folks, I need to extract all the dependencies (direct and indirect test and prod) of a haskell project using cabal as a library. but it seems cabal does not expose all the functionality through the cabal lib. Do you know any solution for this?
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20:06:21 <geekosaur> typically you `cabal build --dry-run` and extract it from `dist-newstyle/plan.json`, using either `cabal-plan` or `jq`
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20:09:10 <lxsameer> geekosaur: I'm trying to use cabal as a library
20:10:17 <geekosaur> Cabal-the-library doesn't understand those concepts
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20:10:35 <geekosaur> the direct dependencies must already be built and their dependencies aren't even known
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20:10:58 <geekosaur> this is a large part of why cabal-the-program and later stack were written
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20:12:49 <lxsameer> geekosaur: ahh got it. Thank you
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20:17:12 <lxsameer> geekosaur: do I need to enable anything special to get the plan.json file? the build dry run didn't generate it
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20:18:40 <geekosaur> It should have, plan.json pretty much is the dry run
20:19:18 <geekosaur> I can't double check right now though, a bit busy
20:19:38 <lxsameer> geekosaur: cheers, thank you
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20:33:06 <geekosaur> sorry, it's dist-newstyle/cache/plan.json
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20:34:20 <lxsameer> geekosaur: found it, cheers
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22:19:51 <tomsmeding> ph88: I have written TH code that _generates_ code with linear types
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