Logs on 2024-11-04 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 09:48:03 | <kqr> | Is it possible to something like `import Foo.Bar hiding (module Foo.Bar.Lens)` or am I relegated to hiding each lens individually? (The reason is simply that the optic names happen to collide with other things.) |
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| 10:07:49 | <geekosaur> | individually. source module information is lost on re-exports |
| 10:16:37 | <kqr> | Thanks! |
| 10:17:55 | <geekosaur> | (technically, the re-exports are symbols and there's no way to tag a symbol with its origin, its origin is always considered to be the object file it was found in) |
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| 10:31:04 | <kqr> | Maybe this is personal and you don't to not answer which is fine. Thing is I used to do a lot of Haskell almost 10 years ago, but then work and other things got in the way so I'm only recently getting started again. However, I do recognise yorour nickname as one of the people who were active also back then. How have you been able to keep it up? Are you using it for work, or is there something |
| 10:31:06 | <kqr> | else? |
| 10:31:39 | <kqr> | The reason I ask is I would also like to be as knowledgeable about the technical details! But I suspect that comes with a tonne of experience. |
| 10:32:11 | <geekosaur> | Personal, but I've been active the whole time, yes. And went from contributor to primary maintainer of xmonad, among other things. |
| 10:32:48 | <geekosaur> | But I've also been active in a lot of other areas since around 1983, which is why I know the technical details (they're actually derived from the way the system linker works, not Haskell as such) |
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| 10:33:44 | <kqr> | Aha! That's neat. And thanks for maintaining XMonad – it's the only window manager that can read my thoughts. |
| 10:33:49 | <geekosaur> | …it could be imagined that thee extra information could be carried in a `.hi` file, but the Haskell Report doesn't currently allow that behavior, it went with what the linker allows. A GHC extension would be possible though |
| 10:34:49 | <geekosaur> | It would, howevre, require a fair amount of thought and might impact backward compatibility to assign imported symbols their origin modules |
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| 10:37:51 | <kqr> | Oh, I see. So even if GHC has access to the module source code it compiles the module separately and then links to it? Hypothetically it could – when it has access to module source code – manage symbol visibility on its own and allow fancy stuff like hiding re-exported modules but that wouldn't work more generally? |
| 10:39:05 | <geekosaur> | Profesionally I was a sysadmin, so programming was rather limited — so I did programming on my own time |
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| 10:40:05 | <geekosaur> | it wouldn't even need the source code. When it compiles a module, it produces two outputs: an object file, and a Haskell Information file (the `.hi` file I mentioned). Source module information could be added to the `.hi` file. |
| 10:40:39 | <geekosaur> | That way it wouldn't need the source of the original module to be available, all the information it would need would be part of the current module's metadata |
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| 10:42:45 | <kqr> | Does this mean that Haskell libraries can't be distributed only as object files, because there's necessary data in the .hi file as well? |
| 10:42:54 | <geekosaur> | correct |
| 10:44:25 | <geekosaur> | you also need the package information though, as a module isn't standalone, it's part of some package. So you also need (in ghc-land) the package.conf containing the module information (in particular, it lists all the modules contained in a package). Other compilers might do it in other ways |
| 10:45:36 | <geekosaur> | ("ghc-pkg find-module" is a good way to find out where a module lives, if it's installed somewhere locally. I even point this at my cabal store's package database sometimes, although it produces a fair amount of noise because of multiple versions often being installed) |
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| 10:48:18 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SNFxkUfR |
| 10:49:21 | <kqr> | Oh, cool! |
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| 10:50:09 | <geekosaur> | (stack has its own store, but I don't know where it lives or whether it exposes its comtents in a way that's useful for ghc-pkg) |
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| 10:56:26 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> (cabal too) |
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| 10:57:54 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> cabal path --store-dir |
| 10:57:54 | <haskellbridge> | /home/hellwolf/.cabal/store |
| 10:58:11 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> $ cabal path --store-dir |
| 10:58:11 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/JfnUQUmRzQRcOcVQnNYlRAJz/dhYW9riD4K0 (12 lines) |
| 10:58:42 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> $ ls /home/hellwolf/.cabal/store/ |
| 10:58:42 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/qgfydUwscAnZxhKKJRHQhlNt/GLCihQesOfs (3 lines) |
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| 11:03:26 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> $ ghc-pkg --package-db ~/.cabal/store/ghc-9.10.1-inplace/package.db find-module PyF |
| 11:03:26 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/SDjdizDNkfMgazEnPYKUejwp/A65pKeQJMgU (4 lines) |
| 11:03:59 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> $ ghc-pkg --package-db ~/.cabal/store/ghc-9.2.8/package.db find-module PyF |
| 11:03:59 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/ckPCgVkFfJDDIrvAXoAEmDLx/R8K8k5XJMao (3 lines) |
| 11:04:49 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I guess, you will have to use the matching/compatible versions of ghc to query the package.db. |
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| 11:09:19 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I see that stack has this giant "~/.stack/pantry/" thing... not sure how to make it compatible with ghc-pkg :/ |
| 11:10:54 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> But it probably is in the projects ".stack-work" folder. I don't use stack often, I can't check atm. |
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| 11:16:08 | <geekosaur> | yeh, their pantry is sqlite, not the traditional package db format |
| 11:17:04 | <geekosaur> | I don't have a .stack-work sitting around currently (I was hoping I had one in my xmonad user testing sandbox but it's currently empty) |
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| 13:39:31 | <Leonard26> | Hello! =D |
| 13:39:31 | <Leonard26> | I have a variable that expects a CULong type, but it goes in contrast with the function type definition padProbeCallback :: Gst.Pad -> Gst.PadProbeInfo -> IO Gst.PadProbeReturn |
| 13:39:32 | <Leonard26> | If I change it to padProbeCallback :: Gst.Pad -> CULong -> IO Gst.PadProbeReturn it throws an error complaining about the type signature not being right. How can I solve this? |
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| 15:20:25 | <dminuoso> | Leonard26: You sound a bit confused. What do you mean by `I have a variable that expects a CULong type` exctly? |
| 15:21:30 | <Leonard26> | Nevermind, I figured it out |
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| 15:54:19 | <Leonard26> | I have another issue. I am trying to recreate a C example code in Haskell, through the language bindings for Gstreamer but I'm stuck at trying to implement some functions outside of the main function. My issue being that the variables defined in main cannot be accessed by these outside functions, namely pad_probe_cb and event_probe_cb. |
| 15:54:20 | <Leonard26> | This is the C code https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Zb7Y142y |
| 15:54:20 | <Leonard26> | This is my Haskell code https://paste.tomsmeding.com/1od5ZKlb |
| 15:54:21 | <Leonard26> | Outputting these compilation errors regarding variables not in scope https://paste.tomsmeding.com/CYxggYsh |
| 15:55:28 | <Leonard26> | How can this be solved? =L |
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| 16:01:13 | <mauke> | Leonard26: pass them as arguments to the functions that need them? |
| 16:03:04 | <Leonard26> | Yes, I've thought of that but if I try it tells me that the type signature of the callback is wrong, so I can't add any more arguments to these functions, padProbeCallback and eventProbeCallback =L |
| 16:03:59 | <mauke> | do you know about partial application? |
| 16:04:54 | <Leonard26> | Yes, I'm a bit rusty tho |
| 16:05:19 | <Leonard26> | This is the output of adding the missing variables as arguments https://paste.tomsmeding.com/HcDTWCcg |
| 16:05:57 | <mauke> | you need to supply the extra arguments at the point where you register the callback |
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| 16:06:08 | <mauke> | > let addFakeCallback fn = [fn 1, fn 2]; cb x = 2*x in addFakeCallback cb |
| 16:06:10 | <lambdabot> | [2,4] |
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| 16:06:34 | <mauke> | > let addFakeCallback fn = [fn 1, fn 2]; cb extra x = extra*x in addFakeCallback cb |
| 16:06:35 | <lambdabot> | [<Integer -> Integer>,<Integer -> Integer>] |
| 16:06:38 | <mauke> | hah |
| 16:06:42 | <mauke> | foiled by lambdabot |
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| 16:07:14 | <mauke> | > let addFakeCallback :: (Int -> Int) -> [Int]; addFakeCallback fn = [fn 1, fn 2]; cb extra x = extra*x in addFakeCallback cb |
| 16:07:15 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:07:15 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Int -> Int’ with ‘Int’ |
| 16:07:15 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: Int -> Int |
| 16:07:25 | <mauke> | ^ this is analogous with your error |
| 16:07:40 | <mauke> | I'm trying to "register" a callback that takes too many arguments |
| 16:07:54 | <mauke> | > let addFakeCallback :: (Int -> Int) -> [Int]; addFakeCallback fn = [fn 1, fn 2]; cb extra x = extra*x in addFakeCallback (cb 42) |
| 16:07:56 | <lambdabot> | [42,84] |
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| 16:26:29 | <statusbot6> | Status update: Wiki.haskell.org is down due to an unsuccessful system upgrade. We are working on restoring service. -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/incident/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/6728f5b530789205372a3361 |
| 16:27:19 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I didn't know there was a status.haskell.org page, thanks |
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| 16:28:18 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Though the its history doesn't seem to show the hackage down times that I recently experienced. |
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| 16:34:57 | <geekosaur> | no, it's manual and if nobody reported it nobody will update it |
| 16:35:08 | <geekosaur> | there used to be a live auto-status page but it seems to be gone |
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| 16:35:56 | <sclv> | the only hackage downtime recently was an update on the 2nd and it does show that https://status.haskell.org/pages/maintenance/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/67267208c5128b053d4b12c7 |
| 16:36:20 | <sclv> | also auto-status.haskell.org works again -- it needed some stuff reset |
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| 16:37:17 | <geekosaur> | yay |
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| 16:37:25 | <geekosaur> | (I'm putting out fires elsewhere…) |
| 16:39:23 | <monochrom> | But please don't pour water into computers! |
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| 16:40:11 | monochrom | organizes a water pistol party in the data centre! |
| 16:41:06 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Pardon me, I just recall it was hoogle instead. |
| 16:41:52 | <monochrom> | Yeah hoogle was down some weeks ago. |
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| 16:43:54 | <dolio> | It's apparently getting hit by a bunch of bot activity. |
| 16:43:54 | <geekosaur> | I haven't heard any complaints in the past week, so I guess it's back now? |
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| 16:46:32 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> > It's apparently getting hit by a bunch of bot activity. |
| 16:46:32 | <haskellbridge> | I think we can donate some money and setup a AWS WAF for it... shouldn't cost < $30 dollar |
| 16:46:47 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> or, we live with chances, which kinda worked too |
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| 16:55:51 | <sclv> | what we need is a skilled admin to join us and help configure it to knock out the spam -- or maybe someone to work on making the code more efficient to handle load, or both :-) |
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| 17:53:45 | <briandaed> | sclv are these spam queries network(io) bound? |
| 17:54:19 | <sclv> | i think its compute bound and suspect its just the hoogle code isn't super load efficient on some things |
| 17:54:53 | <briandaed> | more core/threads would help? |
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| 18:00:03 | <tomsmeding> | ultimately spam protection is just really quite hard without relying on internet backbone providers like cloudflare |
| 18:00:26 | <tomsmeding> | IP rate limiting is pointless with IPv6 |
| 18:01:19 | <tomsmeding> | (and, what's more, it's also counterproductive with things like CGNAT, or big schools having a small number of external IPs) |
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| 18:01:57 | <tomsmeding> | (if you know better: please let me know!) |
| 18:04:26 | <briandaed> | not sure if we should classify it as a spam or rather (d)dos |
| 18:04:35 | <tomsmeding> | is there a difference? |
| 18:05:40 | <briandaed> | in my narrow mind spam is sending some useless messages (sometimes malicious), while ddos wants service to be down |
| 18:05:42 | <tomsmeding> | (though if it's really a DOS then it would be worth checking if it comes from a small number of IPs) |
| 18:05:50 | <dolio> | From what I heard, it doesn't sound like dos. It sounds like the internet is full of bots who will search for things like "password" on any web form hoping to get lucky. |
| 18:06:05 | <tomsmeding> | and that happens enough times per second to bring the site to a crawl? |
| 18:06:10 | <tomsmeding> | the playground doesn't get spam like that |
| 18:06:18 | <tomsmeding> | (and it's been up and linked to for more than a year now) |
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| 18:06:54 | <briandaed> | I also don't suspect spam or malicious activities, rather some misconfigured tool, but I saw only limited sample on discourse |
| 18:07:01 | <tomsmeding> | (link?) |
| 18:07:07 | <int-e> | and everything that looks like it accepts parameters gets hammered with attempts to do SQL injection |
| 18:07:20 | <briandaed> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/hoogle-appears-to-be-down/10408/21 |
| 18:07:44 | <int-e> | (which /may/ be easy to filter before they burden the CPU unduly but it's still work) |
| 18:08:12 | <briandaed> | yeah, moved from hoogle to fw/ids/ips whatever |
| 18:08:17 | <tomsmeding> | that sample is indeed odd |
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| 18:10:09 | <tomsmeding> | sclv: do you have IPs in the hoogle log? |
| 18:10:43 | <tomsmeding> | the packages in those requests really look quite random; the prefix is the same, and then the last 5 are completely arbitrary |
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| 18:11:00 | <sclv> | nope, we need to change the nginx setup to capture the log -- just been a low priority with everything else |
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| 18:11:06 | <tomsmeding> | fair |
| 18:11:19 | <sclv> | as is it basically just passes through everything to the hoogle binary, which doesn't have very good logging. |
| 18:12:30 | <briandaed> | sclv any external monitoring, icinga/nagios? not sure what is hot now |
| 18:12:32 | <sclv> | but yeah, anyone comfortable with nginx, systemd and willing to be comfortable with the hoogle codebase is encouraged to volunteer and you can get the auth to poke around on the system and take a look at it |
| 18:13:02 | <tomsmeding> | (I would but I'm swamped already...) |
| 18:13:29 | <tomsmeding> | (as is everyone else, it seems) |
| 18:13:35 | <briandaed> | and one more thing is hardware spec a secret? ram, core count, etc.? |
| 18:13:58 | <tomsmeding> | given that log I would (hugely extrapolate and) think that adding more cores will not help |
| 18:15:25 | <sclv> | specs not a secret, just don' recall off hand -- box is also shared with some other haskell infra. nothing beefy or special. |
| 18:15:57 | <sclv> | i do suspect the best fix is making hoogle not work too hard when requests are goofy |
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| 18:21:32 | <dolio> | Is the amount of extra packages part of the problem? |
| 18:23:24 | <briandaed> | https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/blob/master/src/Query.hs line#3 looks interesting |
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| 18:24:12 | <sclv> | briandaed: oh lmao!!! |
| 18:24:33 | <int-e> | I have a hard time thinking of a legitimate reason for such requests. IDE integration might lead to long lists of packages... but they don't seem to connect and the varying suffix switching between different alternative preludes? Suspicious. |
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| 18:35:43 | <tomsmeding> | briandaed: lmao |
| 18:37:01 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: not only alternative preludes, including completely random stuff like distribution-opensuse, hledger-web, cabal-install-solver, stack, copilot-language, audacity |
| 18:37:32 | <tomsmeding> | depending on one of those things: fine; depending on all of them together: very suspect |
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| 18:43:02 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: right. and it's also not simply a list of installed packages because then it should have things like hsemail (a dependency of the niche distribution-opensuse package). |
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| 18:44:54 | <int-e> | (even if those made sense as installed packages you'd still have to think of a story for why some packages are fixed and others vary) |
| 18:45:32 | <int-e> | The explanation that does rhyme is that this is a deliberate DoS. |
| 18:48:42 | <tomsmeding> | indeed |
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| 18:49:14 | <tomsmeding> | in which case... what an immaturity to DoS something like hoogle, _why_ |
| 18:49:33 | <tomsmeding> | (and why not haskell.org?) |
| 18:50:04 | <tomsmeding> | surely a DoS is to send some kind of message, but it's entirely unclear what the message is here |
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| 18:53:07 | geekosaur | glances at "all of them together" and suddenly wonders if there is some chance that acme-everything is involved |
| 18:53:25 | <geekosaur> | (remembering the equivalent situation with node a few months back) |
| 18:53:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> DoS don't need to follow any logic. They can be random, or sometimes unintended misconfigurations |
| 18:53:58 | <sclv> | it does look for like `Monad` in each package, so there's the possibility its trying to crawl all of hackage to discover which modules define a Monad or something, and they're doing it in a just stupid dumb way |
| 18:54:10 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> one just needs to be robust against them |
| 18:54:31 | <geekosaur> | they couldn't just ask ChatGPT like everyone else does in 2024? |
| 18:54:42 | <sclv> | like someone could just be doing something inefficient and not realizing the load they're causing |
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| 18:56:30 | <int-e> | I would expect an LLM to invent package names rather than sticking to existing ones |
| 18:57:38 | <int-e> | It's weird. But all it takes is one ill-motivated (and/or bored) person. :/ |
| 18:57:58 | <sclv> | ugh just checked and its still going |
| 18:59:06 | <sclv> | i really do think its somebodys student project gone awry |
| 18:59:27 | <tomsmeding> | but then it's been going for months! |
| 19:00:47 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> can't you "just block them" |
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| 19:05:57 | <sclv> | looks like its a lot of different ips! |
| 19:06:13 | <tomsmeding> | that's odd |
| 19:06:34 | <sclv> | ooh its https://wordpress.org/support/topic/psa-bytedance-and-bytespider-bots-recommend-blocking/ |
| 19:06:35 | <monochrom> | Maybe ChatGPT is the one asking hoogle. >:) |
| 19:06:36 | tomsmeding | . o O ( just block searching for "Monad" ) |
| 19:07:01 | <monochrom> | Hey that works too. |
| 19:07:10 | <tomsmeding> | sclv: oh you have a user agent? |
| 19:07:17 | <tomsmeding> | they are really _crawlers_? |
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| 19:07:53 | <sclv> | whytf is the company that owns tik tok crawling hoogle something must be haywire |
| 19:08:37 | <tomsmeding> | going by the thread you linked they seem to be crawling everything, and clumsily at that |
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| 19:14:06 | <int-e> | how does crawling end up with such package combinations? |
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| 19:15:20 | <tomsmeding> | sclv: is every request different, or is there a set of package combinations that repeats? |
| 19:15:40 | <tomsmeding> | (please prioritise blocking the user agent over checking this) |
| 19:16:47 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Possibly related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42009636 Nearly 90% of our AI crawler traffic is from ByteDance |
| 19:17:17 | <tomsmeding> | but is it really _crawler_ traffic or are they training an AI with web access, and not caching any of the accesses it makes? |
| 19:17:33 | <tomsmeding> | that would explain large volumes of weird requests |
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| 19:26:15 | <mauke> | preflex: seen sm |
| 19:26:15 | <preflex> | sm was last seen on #haskell 9 minutes and 29 seconds ago, saying: Possibly related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42009636 Nearly 90% of our AI crawler traffic is from ByteDance |
| 19:27:08 | <mauke> | hell yeah. made haskellbridge transparent to the seen command and deployed the update, all without disconnecting the bot |
| 19:27:36 | <tomsmeding> | flex |
| 19:27:51 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: what's it written in |
| 19:27:55 | <monochrom> | How did you manage that? I thought Haskell doesn't quite support hot-loading. |
| 19:27:55 | <mauke> | haskell :-) |
| 19:28:20 | <mauke> | no hot-loading. I built a new executable and copied it to the server |
| 19:28:38 | <mauke> | but it re-execs itself on SIGUSR1 |
| 19:28:52 | <monochrom> | Wait, do you mean that every preflex command causes spawning a brand new preflex process?! |
| 19:29:09 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: that's cute |
| 19:29:17 | <mauke> | the way irssi and xmonad do it |
| 19:29:19 | <monochrom> | OK I see, nevermind. |
| 19:30:03 | <monochrom> | Wait, it re-execs without disconnecting. That's interesting. |
| 19:30:19 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: how much state do you have to communicate to the new process to make it continue operations seemlessly? |
| 19:30:22 | <tomsmeding> | *seamlessly |
| 19:30:32 | <tomsmeding> | I guess the irc protocol is simple enough that there's very little state |
| 19:30:46 | <geekosaur> | that's just passing the connection fd on the command line and fdToHandle in the new process, no? |
| 19:32:17 | <tomsmeding> | presumably, yes |
| 19:32:26 | <monochrom> | Is it like this? The re-exec contains arguments that say "don't make new connection, fd #42 is already the connected socket, just use that"? |
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| 19:33:36 | <monochrom> | I need to turn that into homework or exam. >:) |
| 19:34:09 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: you're making life rather easier for students who lurk in this channel |
| 19:34:32 | <sclv> | oh god looking at more logs its not just bytedance its all the fucking crawlers. chatgpt PetalBot amazonbot applebot, and they're all ignoring robots.txt |
| 19:34:34 | <sclv> | ASDFASDF |
| 19:34:56 | <monochrom> | Yeah right 2nd-year unix-and-C students decide to hang out in #haskell. Fat chance. |
| 19:34:58 | <tomsmeding> | sclv: and they're all doing ridiculous infinite praameter combinations? |
| 19:34:59 | <mauke> | monochrom: basically |
| 19:35:01 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: fair :D |
| 19:35:21 | <sclv> | yes, all their crawls are equally ass and look the same. i wonder if there's some linkfarm that generated them and then they all follow it?? |
| 19:35:23 | <monochrom> | On top of gen Z (or whatever it is) hanging out in IRC at all. |
| 19:35:24 | → | hgolden_ joins (~hgolden@static-198-44-129-51.cust.tzulo.com) |
| 19:35:42 | <sclv> | there's even a ew that have no bot signature at all that look the same |
| 19:36:35 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: two filenames, two sockets, two pending message queues (input/output), and explicit state: a timestamp, the current nick, isupport settings, list of joined channels |
| 19:36:39 | <sclv> | and on top of that we're getting queries that are from homegrown crawlers looking for like AWS_SECRET and the like to lool |
| 19:36:47 | <tomsmeding> | looking at my logs I seem to currently have >=5 crawlers crawling ircbrowse: babbar.tech, facebook, amazonbot, opensiteexplorer.org, petalbot |
| 19:37:20 | <tomsmeding> | but then that server also runs a matrix server and the matrix server is at least as active lol |
| 19:37:22 | <sclv> | these assholes are killing the internet |
| 19:37:53 | <briandaed> | https://blog.cloudflare.com/declaring-your-aindependence-block-ai-bots-scrapers-and-crawlers-with-a-single-click/ just another reason to hate 'ai' |
| 19:37:53 | × | hgolden__ quits (~hgolden@204.152.216.122) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 19:37:56 | <tomsmeding> | to be fair ircbrowse has a robots.txt that explicitly allows the calendar pages (/day/*), and they seem to be crawling that tree |
| 19:38:19 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: that's quite a bit! |
| 19:38:24 | <geekosaur> | interestingly, I periodically check the logs of my matrix server and the only noise I see is the usual kiddies scanning for vulns |
| 19:38:32 | <geekosaur> | (sorry, no wordpress here 😛 ) |
| 19:38:44 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: how do you communicate it, some serialised data structure on the command line or something fancier? |
| 19:39:36 | <mauke> | a lot of show |
| 19:39:39 | <mauke> | and command line arguments |
| 19:39:39 | <tomsmeding> | briandaed: that's hilarious |
| 19:39:45 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: ah :) |
| 19:40:16 | <mauke> | you wouldn't believe what the storage backend looks like :-) |
| 19:40:19 | <int-e> | briandaed: what if I want to be independent of cloudflare |
| 19:40:39 | <tomsmeding> | then you put a regex in your reverse proxy on the user agent |
| 19:40:48 | → | cuteguest joins (~cuteguest@67-134-33-194.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 19:41:26 | <mauke> | the whole thing is built on a simple key/value store, both of which are strings |
| 19:41:44 | <mauke> | all stored data is serialized using 'show' |
| 19:42:00 | <monochrom> | NoSQL + NoBinary >:) |
| 19:42:05 | <cuteguest> | someone here recommended thinking with types.. its soo cool and blowing my mind.. im at open products and open sums and i feel like its going to take me a lot of practice to really get whats going on |
| 19:42:06 | <briandaed> | int-e: then you must be better than 'them' |
| 19:42:09 | <int-e> | TBH I'm somewhat surprised that they use an identifiable user agent (Bytespider / Bytedance) instead of masquerading as a standard web browser. |
| 19:42:10 | <mauke> | it's actually sqlite |
| 19:42:21 | <monochrom> | NoSQL + NoBinary + NoStructure >:) >:) |
| 19:42:30 | <int-e> | If you're being scummy (ignore robots.txt) why not go the extra mile? |
| 19:42:44 | <tomsmeding> | why is spam email so easy to spot |
| 19:42:58 | <tomsmeding> | both are useful, neither make any sense |
| 19:43:00 | <mauke> | but the karma plugin stores counts as full Integers and the seen plugin uses timestamps with picosecond precision, so there's that |
| 19:43:02 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: because 90% of it is not targeted at you |
| 19:43:06 | <int-e> | or 99% |
| 19:43:34 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: I see you're waiting for the person with >2^64 karma |
| 19:44:23 | <monochrom> | cuteguest: open products and open sums are equivalent to OO so one can argue that every 1st-year student understands it. >:) |
| 19:44:46 | <mauke> | sadly, even C doesn't come close :-) |
| 19:45:10 | <cuteguest> | oh no.. mayb i should jus give up all this computer stuff.. |
| 19:46:04 | <mauke> | monochrom: isn't that a bit like saying you can catch a ball thrown to you, so you must be able to do calculus? |
| 19:46:48 | <cuteguest> | :3c |
| 19:46:50 | × | euleritian quits (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 19:47:34 | <monochrom> | mauke: It is also like saying "ChatGPT happens to answer my question correctly, so it must understand the topic!" |
| 19:48:01 | <monochrom> | The truth is I was sarcastic about humans "understanding" anything at all. |
| 19:48:39 | <int-e> | monochrom: and people use LLMs for advice in areas that they don't understand |
| 19:49:12 | <int-e> | "ChatGPT knows more about the law than I do, I use it for all my legal advice." |
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| 19:49:19 | <int-e> | whatcouldpossiblygowrong |
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| 19:53:03 | <Rembane> | They had it coming! They had it coming! They only had themselves to blame! |
| 19:53:19 | × | weary-traveler quits (~user@user/user363627) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:54:35 | <cuteguest> | i <3 you internet ppl |
| 19:55:15 | <cuteguest> | i think i will b back here at some point with a new name.. i think it would b fun to talk about more haskell |
| 19:55:25 | <[exa]> | evening everyone |
| 19:55:41 | <cuteguest> | evening gm gn bye bye |
| 19:55:50 | <[exa]> | \o |
| 19:56:04 | <cuteguest> | o/ |
| 19:56:09 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: sclv is finding out what's behind hoogle's slowness |
| 19:56:17 | × | cuteguest quits (~cuteguest@67-134-33-194.dia.static.qwest.net) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 19:56:19 | <tomsmeding> | answer: apparently AI trainer crawlers going absolutely haywire |
| 19:56:20 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: oh great |
| 19:56:24 | <tomsmeding> | it's insane |
| 19:56:33 | <[exa]> | lol |
| 19:56:39 | <tomsmeding> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/hoogle-appears-to-be-down/10408/21 |
| 19:56:49 | × | alphazone quits (~alphazone@2.219.56.221) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 19:56:52 | <[exa]> | AI certainly thinks "I'll finally get the monads it if I read it once more" |
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| 19:57:12 | <sclv> | alright i turned on cloudflare protection for hoogle (luckly its already our dns provider) and turned on some of those super bot fight mode features briandaed linked me to -- thanks! |
| 19:57:13 | <tomsmeding> | https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2024/11/04?id=1395457#trid1395457 |
| 19:57:14 | <geekosaur> | so is that better or worse than bad monad tutorials? |
| 19:57:19 | <sclv> | didn't kill all the bad traffic but drastically reduced it |
| 19:57:21 | <geekosaur> | (or an AI overreaction to same?) |
| 19:57:42 | <monochrom> | That's what's wrong with soft AI (i.e., the school of AI that says AI means doing what humans do). |
| 19:57:42 | <tomsmeding> | sclv: hoogle is fast again! |
| 19:57:50 | <tomsmeding> | hooray! |
| 19:57:55 | <[exa]> | sclv: <3 thanks! |
| 19:58:23 | <briandaed> | cool, just remember to remove -O0 from Query.hs xD |
| 19:59:10 | <[exa]> | sclv: just curious, how much volume/time was it, roughly? |
| 19:59:16 | <monochrom> | Haha "super bot fight mode". Cf https://store.steampowered.com/app/898750/Super_Robot_Wars_30/ |
| 19:59:44 | <sclv> | idk if i can estimate from the logs -- between all the bots were getting like 10 rq/sec ? |
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| 20:01:41 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Do you use "AI" in your Haskell programming workflow, and which editor would you use for that? |
| 20:01:41 | <haskellbridge> | I am still not convinced I would need it for my stuff, but I am open to listening to people's experience, especially when it comes to programming in Haskell... |
| 20:02:08 | → | morb joins (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) |
| 20:02:54 | <geekosaur> | I don't use AI for anything, especially when the fine print says they'll start charging me at some point (looking at you, Gemini) because becoming dependent on it is Bad Idea |
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| 20:03:41 | <monochrom> | If you watched the Dune Part II movie, you'll understand this: Control of AI is control of power. |
| 20:03:55 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I still remember the days when Linus said you should stick to printf debugging, because otherwise you grow dependent on debuggers. |
| 20:04:07 | <briandaed> | hellwolf: no, I assume it "bad" on many levels, I was made to use/evaluate it, but selecting 'best' option and 'tune' it, makes no sense to me, also being trained on GPLed code also stinks |
| 20:04:55 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> This guy from HVM, every day shilling about using AI for his stuff. He seems a smart guy, and I am wondering what am I missing here. I don't want to be stuck with confirmation bias, neither... |
| 20:04:58 | <[exa]> | sclv: btw what's the search backend for hoogle? I somehow thought it's deferring to something like elasticsearch or maybe sphinx as notmuch does, but the search storage looks completely custom, is that right? |
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| 20:05:55 | <monochrom> | You should stick to debuggers, because otherwise you grow dependent on printf debugging (which describes me). >:) |
| 20:06:19 | <[exa]> | oh yeah imagine when they monetize printf! |
| 20:06:23 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> does haskell even have a debugger :D |
| 20:06:36 | × | morb quits (~morb@pool-108-41-100-120.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 20:06:59 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> GHC is the best debugger, debug your type errors |
| 20:07:05 | <geekosaur> | ghci, supposedly |
| 20:07:11 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> bingo |
| 20:07:30 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> actually, no, I haven't ever used it for debugging... |
| 20:07:34 | <geekosaur> | there are some gdb scripts floating around byut they assume you uunderstand STG internals |
| 20:08:54 | <monochrom> | LLMs are well-trained on mainstream languages, but Haskell is not a mainstream language. Once again, networking effects win. |
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| 20:10:02 | <int-e> | https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/blob/master/src/Output/Names.hs#L46 . o O ( beautiful ) |
| 20:10:30 | <mauke> | ... hat? buddha? |
| 20:10:39 | califax_ | is now known as califax |
| 20:10:54 | <geekosaur> | I like the comments nearby as well |
| 20:11:08 | <geekosaur> | (wait, buffer too small? are you using the right language?) |
| 20:12:18 | <int-e> | [exa]: it's all written in Haskell... if my code-browsing skills don't deceive me, https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/blob/master/src/Output/Types.hs does the type matching |
| 20:12:34 | <monochrom> | hat and buddha may have bitrotted. |
| 20:14:19 | <geekosaur> | it's haskell but some of what that linked function is doing makes me think ndm was writing C in Haskell shudder |
| 20:14:30 | <[exa]> | int-e: ah thanks a lot, I was clicking through to this but not nearly as fast |
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| 20:15:10 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah this would make I guess a nice zurihac topic, hoogle with a slightly more modern data retrieval |
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| 20:19:33 | <monochrom> | It calls a C function text_search. It has to do the FFI necessary evil of malloc-marshall-call_c-free. I would say it looks like C++ RAII. >:) But it's just the usual FFI glue code. |
| 20:20:09 | × | alphazone quits (~alphazone@2.219.56.221) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 20:20:10 | <int-e> | So you're saying it's idiomatic Haskell. |
| 20:21:16 | <geekosaur> | I don't think doing `malloc` undjer `unsafePerformIO` is ever idiomatic. Or safe, |
| 20:21:22 | <monochrom> | It depends on whether/how-much usage of FFI is idiomatic Haskell. |
| 20:21:54 | <monochrom> | Not even unsafePerformIO (bracket malloc action free)? |
| 20:21:54 | <int-e> | sorry I didn't add ";-)" |
| 20:22:02 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 20:22:56 | <geekosaur> | iirc `bracket` and `unsafePerformIO` is a really dangerouss combination |
| 20:23:34 | <briandaed> | shouldn't it be marked as NOINLINE, same as c_text_search? |
| 20:24:59 | <int-e> | Isn't it (barely) fine if you don't use STM? In contrast to unsafeDupablePerformIO which may fail to exectue the cleanup if the GC manages to d-duplicates the computation. (And with STMs computations can also stop without a trace when a transaction is retried.) |
| 20:25:22 | <int-e> | "it" being `bracket` under unsafePerformIO & friends |
| 20:26:18 | <geekosaur> | STM rejects being run under unsafePerformIO anyway |
| 20:26:24 | <int-e> | And when it's malloc the worst you get is a memory leak. Which is, of course, problematic for servers. |
| 20:26:25 | <geekosaur> | or at least `atomically` does |
| 20:26:36 | <int-e> | geekosaur: this is about unsafePerformIO under STM |
| 20:26:42 | <geekosaur> | the worsyt you get is the process freezing because it blocked |
| 20:27:43 | <Rembane> | I wonder why the C-code was needed. |
| 20:27:44 | <int-e> | AFAIK if you have STM -> unsafePerfromIO -> bracket, the cleanup branch of bracket may never run if the outer transaction is retried, leaking resources. It may be worse and mess with the exception mask. |
| 20:27:56 | <int-e> | Rembane: for better performance I'd guess |
| 20:28:15 | <int-e> | this is searching for a needle in megabytes of data |
| 20:28:28 | <int-e> | (I think) |
| 20:28:38 | <Rembane> | int-e: Yeah, since I'm not a C-programmer it doesn't seem like it's worth it. But I don't really know. |
| 20:29:26 | <geekosaur> | (IIRC malloc gives you pinned memory, which therefore doesn't live in the heap, which therefore means it comes from C's malloc, which means your thread is blocked in FFI and if another thread causes a GC the RTS will block trying to synchronize with your thread while it's in the FFI call) |
| 20:29:31 | <int-e> | Haskell, or rather GHC, isn't great at compiling tight inner loops. |
| 20:30:14 | <int-e> | geekosaur: That depends on whether you make an unsafe or a safe foreign call. |
| 20:30:23 | <tomsmeding> | the C code doesn't look particularly vectorisable, though |
| 20:30:39 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> > Haskell, or rather GHC, isn't great at compiling tight inner loops. |
| 20:30:39 | <haskellbridge> | Any short example of it? |
| 20:30:45 | <int-e> | It has little to do with where malloc-ed memory resides. The fact that it's pinned makes it safe to use in safe foreign calls. |
| 20:31:28 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: GHC will not generate SIMD instructions, and a C compiler will, if your code is amenable to it |
| 20:31:39 | <tomsmeding> | that is good for 2x-4x improvement in some cases |
| 20:32:12 | <tomsmeding> | (but as I said, this code doesn't look like the kind of code that would really benefit from that) |
| 20:32:48 | <tomsmeding> | (assuming that the strstr() call is replaced with some other FFI call; perhaps eliminating the overhead of many FFI calls for the strstr()s already justifies putting the whole loop in C) |
| 20:32:52 | <int-e> | bytestring/vector jump through a lot of hoops to hopefully avoid allocations in inner loops |
| 20:32:52 | <tomsmeding> | ( https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/blob/master/cbits/text_search.c ) |
| 20:33:18 | <tomsmeding> | (strstr() is typically a thing that you do want to do with SIMD instructions) |
| 20:33:21 | <int-e> | It's much easier to ensure the absence of such allocations by using C. |
| 20:35:07 | <Inst> | ... |
| 20:35:28 | <Inst> | 2 minutes, good enough, do people still use servant, or is it sort of obsolete in web framework land? |
| 20:35:47 | <geekosaur> | why do you think it's obsolete? |
| 20:36:00 | <geekosaur> | it wasn't updated 5 minutes ago? |
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| 20:36:30 | <Inst> | https://www.servant.dev |
| 20:36:32 | <Inst> | last blog entry 2018 |
| 20:37:19 | <Inst> | afaik, like, scotty and spock were standard for a long time, then hecate recommends twain, which as far as i understand is standard for "simple" webservers |
| 20:38:28 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: last upload to hackage August 30th, this year |
| 20:38:30 | <tomsmeding> | is that new enough? |
| 20:38:46 | <Inst> | i mean you could just say there is no alternative |
| 20:39:05 | <tomsmeding> | there are various alternatives with various feature sets and library designs |
| 20:39:41 | <Inst> | any you could recommend? |
| 20:40:00 | <Inst> | or maybe I just don't understand captureall, I'm trying to rig servant to just expose a directory |
| 20:40:18 | <Inst> | and i'm annoyed because i'm using Data.List.intersperse and Data.Foldable.fold |
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| 20:40:38 | <monochrom> | To expose a directory, just use apache. >:) |
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| 20:41:35 | <geekosaur> | the thing about servant is that it heavily uses type level programming. on the one hand that means it's pretty thoroughly debugged at compile time . on the other it makes it harder to use, so for very simple jobs you may want something easier to wrangle |
| 20:41:50 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: the playground uses snap-server; relatively bare-bones, but works and is not extremely heavy-weight |
| 20:42:15 | <Clint> | warp's pretty simple for just serving a directory |
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| 20:45:15 | <Inst> | thanks for the help, i guess |
| 20:45:29 | <Inst> | monochrom: I'm just making 100 different hello worlds. Getting servant to expose a directory is a hello-world |
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| 20:48:14 | <monochrom> | I use a much simpler hello world. It just counts how many times it has been visited. And the count isn't even saved permanently. |
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| 23:56:42 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> monochrom: main = print 1 |
All times are in UTC on 2024-11-04.