Logs on 2024-11-05 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:14:00	<sclv>	Inst: servant has a special helper just for your use case of exposing a directory https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-server-0.20.2/docs/Servant-Server-StaticFiles.html#v:serveDirectoryWebApp
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03:28:15	<arahael>	I'm attempting to install haskell on debian trixie. However, ghcup installs the wrong version.
03:28:32	<arahael>	It's installing the version for bookworm instead.
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03:41:06	<geekosaur>	afaict there isn't one for trixie
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03:41:26	<arahael>	Hmm, so I should stick with the distro-provided ghc and cabal et al.
03:41:49	<arahael>	Or use distrobox and get myself setup with bookworm I guess.
03:42:13	<geekosaur>	there are two debian distributions in the ghcup metadata from what I saw, if neither is compatible then you'll have to file a bug about getting a compatible build
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03:42:35	<arahael>	What are those two debians?
03:43:04	<arahael>	I suppose it's possible ghcup don't want to support a testing release until it's properly released as stable?
03:43:10	<geekosaur>	I see "< 10" and ">= 10"
03:43:26	<arahael>	That's... Interesting.
03:43:53	<arahael>	By contrast, I saw that ghcup instructed me to install packages that no-longer exist, and tried to install for version 11.
03:43:59	<arahael>	(And I'm on version 12 - trixie)
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03:45:46	<geekosaur>	sorry, once I get to a modern version it's three (<10, 10, >=11)
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03:46:29	<arahael>	Ah, that makes sense again, then.
03:46:45	<arahael>	I could give it a go, regardless, and try the 'bookworm' version.
03:49:20	<arahael>	Ah, it seems to be a little inconsistent - some of the packages are for bookworm, and some are for trixie.
03:49:53	<arahael>	ghci> putStrLn "Hello World!"
03:49:55	<arahael>	Hello World!
03:49:57	<arahael>	All good!
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09:09:06	<Inst>	is Text `Either` Bool cancerous?
09:09:13	<Inst>	or is it an actually acceptable use of Haskell syntax?
09:10:02	<Inst>	also, where's the config for default fixity / precedence when you backtick a function?
09:11:09	<kaol>	I get "Illegal term-level use of the type constructor or class ‘Either’" when I try anything like that.
09:13:22	<Leary>	Type level or not doesn't make a difference; infix is fine iff the identifier is suitably named. "a `Or` b" would be fine, but "a `Either` b" isn't.
09:13:44	<Leary>	Anyway, you can always just `type (+) = Either`.
09:15:30	<tomsmeding>	arahael: I guess ghcup doesn't provide versions for newer distro versions because 1. the older ones work and 2. fewer distribution artifacts lightens the load on release managers / CI infra etc. :)
09:19:24	<geekosaur>	last I heard Julian was doing his own builds on the default channel, so I imagine adding extra ones would be even more work for him. (The vanilla channel contains upstream-provided builds.)
09:19:28	<Inst>	I heard people complaining about `type ($) a b = a b
09:20:03	<geekosaur>	how much of that is complaining about `($)` in general?
09:20:15	<Inst>	kaol: try :k instead of :t
09:20:51	<Inst>	I don't know, but tbh anti-parens crusade, and the ridiculously we do with crazy stuff like do bulleting
09:21:03	<Inst>	*riduculousness
09:21:19	<geekosaur>	anyway I think it's acceptable to the compiler (at type level, of course) but it makes code harder to read
09:21:36	<Inst>	Haskell 98 apparently defaults to infixl 9, section seems missing in Haskell 2010, though
09:22:04	<geekosaur>	I strongly prefer to save operator syntax for things that are actually operator-like
09:22:27	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> I think there is beauty in '$ <$> <$ $> <_> <_ *> >>= >=> <=<`
09:22:38	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> * >=<
09:22:46	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> * "$ \<$> \<$ $> \<_\> \<_ \*> >>= >=\< \<=\<\"
09:22:53	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> * <$> <$ $> <_> <_ *> >>= >=< <=<"
09:23:12	<geekosaur>	https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-820004.4.2
09:23:15	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> * "$, <$>, <$, $>, <_>, <_, *>, >>=, >=<,
09:23:27	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> * <*,
09:23:42	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> * >=>,
09:23:55	<geekosaur>	ugh, those edits are cancer IRC-side
09:24:09	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> sorry, I forget this is IRC channel, I was aware of it.
09:24:28	<tomsmeding>	(isn't "cancer" a bit overblown?)
09:24:46	haskellbridge	hellwolf slaps myself with a large trout in good old IRC fashion
09:24:46	<Inst>	(.) doesn't seem to work that well on type level, though
09:24:47	<Inst>	sorry
09:24:53	<tomsmeding>	(though yes it's ugly and fairly unreadable sometimes)
09:25:05	<tomsmeding>	Inst: it's called Compose
09:25:06	<Inst>	the problem is that Either is supposed to be the standard sum type
09:25:09	<Inst>	ah
09:25:13	<tomsmeding>	but it's a newtype
09:25:14	<geekosaur>	it's too overloaded, I suspect, especially given `forall …. .`
09:25:51	<arahael>	tomsmeding: That does make sense. Was just a bit confusing.
09:25:52	<tomsmeding>	in general, in haskell, if a type synonym / family thing doesn't work too well in haskell, an extra newtype layer often fixes things
09:25:52	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> "(.)"
09:25:52	<haskellbridge>	... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/KtvFpYdPnvlljZESVtlFKcjB/LggDqDvOMGc (7 lines)
09:25:58	geekosaur	needs to try to go back to bed
09:26:04	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> I alwsy remember when Edward Kmett blew my mind with those combinators
09:26:21	<tomsmeding>	hellwolf: (.) = fmap, so (.) . (.) = fmap fmap fmap
09:26:30	<Inst>	good luck, and don't stress too much today, it'll be over when it's over, and it's over in 4-8 years afterwards anyways
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09:27:03	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> no, (.) != fmap. I just double checked with hoogle ;)
09:27:30	<tomsmeding>	:t (.) . (.)
09:27:31	<lambdabot>	(b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c
09:27:33	<tomsmeding>	:t fmap fmap fmap
09:27:34	<lambdabot>	(Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b)
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09:27:36	<Inst>	(.) = fmap for instance Functor (r ->)
09:27:51	<tomsmeding>	now set (f1 ~ (->) a1) and (f2 ~ (->) a2)
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09:31:48	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/xKUfmoznwCHkVefPSdGMuRsW/vGfaLYyIYNk/image.png
09:31:53	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> Hope screenshot works for IRC users too.
09:32:19	<tomsmeding>	we get a link :) (wait a minute and it'll show up here https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell?events_page=13963 )
09:32:44	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> sorry for not sorry for the digress. I figured it's an IRC channel, I can get away with some interjections.
09:32:46	haskellbridge	hellwolf duck now
09:33:47	<kaol>	Some people just want to see the world burn. Like by redefining map = fmap = (.).
09:35:22	<kaol>	Just to get "(+1) . [1,2,3]". Not confusing at all.
09:35:45	<Inst>	. is confusing, tbh
09:36:10	<Inst>	you can remember it's supposed to resemble the composition operator in math, but there's a dozen other things it's used in computer science
09:36:21	<Inst>	it's also used for Module.bindingInModule
09:36:33	<Inst>	and RecordDotSyntax
09:38:23	<kaol>	That's just syntax. I'm thinking of type level mayhem.
09:38:38	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> . to ∘ is simplified chinese to traditional chinese.
09:38:52	<merijn>	RecordDotSyntax exists solely to make Haskell's relatively clean grammar a confusing nightmare hellscape
09:39:17	<kaol>	I'll happily never use it myself.
09:39:26	<merijn>	It's a bad extension that should feel bad about itself >.<
09:41:02	<Inst>	nice analogy, given that o takes forever to type whereas . is a keyboard default
09:41:26	<Inst>	(since simplified Chinese, among other things, makes Chinese far faster to write in non-cursive forms)
09:42:30	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> 书 / 書 (book)
09:42:30	<haskellbridge>	广 / 廣 (wide, adj.)
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10:29:42	<probie>	Handwriting is one thing, but it's the same amount of effort to type 马 as 馬
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10:34:08	<probie>	. is slightly easier to type than ∘, but with a proper input method, it's not _much_ harder. My normal setup for writing unicode maths characters in code is based on Agda's input method, so it's just `\o` (two key presses)
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10:53:53	<kuribas>	Is an ADT a category?
10:54:00	<kuribas>	Then mapping an ADT into another one would be a functor?
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11:03:15	<tomsmeding>	kuribas: if it's a category, then what are its objects and its arrows?
11:04:53	<kuribas>	tomsmeding: Arrows are the products and sums I suppose?
11:05:03	<kuribas>	Objects are the types?
11:05:35	<ncf>	??
11:05:35	<tomsmeding>	the "standard" example of a category in the context of FP is: objects are types, arrows (morphisms) are functions
11:05:58	<tomsmeding>	it works because the identity function is a thing at each type (i.e. on each object), and functions compose
11:06:10	<tomsmeding>	an ADT would be one object in that category
11:06:53	<tomsmeding>	kuribas: are you trying to encapsulate some kind of structure in a function from one ADT to another, more than there is in "any function"?
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11:07:59	<tomsmeding>	if so, then perhaps the concept of an F-algebra is what you are looking for
11:08:04	<kuribas>	tomsmeding: I am reading the "databases as categories" article: https://math.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Applied_Mathematics/Seven_Sketches_in_Compositionality%3A_An_Invitation_to_Applied_Category_Theory_(Fong_and_Spivak)/03%3A_Databases-_Categories_functors_and_(co)limits/3.03%3A_Functors_natural_transformations_and_databases
11:08:11	<kuribas>	I wonder if that works for ADTs too.
11:08:28	<kuribas>	So I could transform an ADT to a database table, using a functor.
11:08:42	<tomsmeding>	how on Earth does an ADT correspond to a database table? :p
11:09:36	<kuribas>	An ORM for example.
11:10:08	tomsmeding	is out of comfort zone
11:10:31	<Inst>	wait, do database tables support sum types?
11:10:43	<Inst>	as in, can a database table be in one of two different schemas?
11:11:06	tomsmeding	has no clue what's going on on that page
11:11:11	tomsmeding	sneaks off
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11:11:59	<ncf>	this is the most programmer-brained introduction to presheaves i have ever seen
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11:14:40	<probie>	Inst: If it's not a normal relational database, then sum types may be easily supported :p. If you want to model it in a relational database and don't want to risk being two variants at once, you can have n columns, each being a nullable foreign key to that variant's table, and a constraint that exactly one of those columns is not null
11:14:44	<ncf>	Inst: as long as you can come up with a notion of homomorphism between instances of different schemas, sure ("there are none" is a valid answer)
11:15:26	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> I recalled a talk from "David Spivak: Categorical Databases". I appreciate people's relentless searches of composition, especially from mathematicians (Bartosz Milewski, et. al.) ... but sometimes someone just gotta find a concrete use case that others can understand and apply the insights.
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14:18:30	<iphy>	{-# LANGUAGE DeriveFunctor #-}
14:18:30	<iphy>	{-# LANGUAGE DeriveGeneric #-}
14:18:30	<iphy>	{-# LANGUAGE DerivingVia #-}
14:18:30	<iphy>	{-# LANGUAGE StrictData #-}
14:18:30	<iphy>	{-# LANGUAGE TypeOperators #-}
14:18:31	<iphy>	module Language.Cimple.Annot
14:18:31	<iphy>	( AnnotF (..)
14:18:32	<iphy>	) where
14:18:33	<iphy>	import Data.Fix (Fix, hoistFix)
14:18:33	<iphy>	import Data.Functor.Classes (Eq1, Read1, Show1)
14:18:34	<iphy>	import Data.Functor.Classes.Generic (FunctorClassesDefault (..))
14:18:34	<iphy>	import Data.Functor.Compose (Compose (..))
14:18:35	<iphy>	import GHC.Generics (Generic, Generic1)
14:18:36	<iphy>	data AnnotF attr a = Annot { attr :: attr, unAnnot :: a }
14:18:36	<iphy>	deriving (Functor, Generic, Generic1)
14:18:37	<iphy>	deriving (Show1, Read1, Eq1) via FunctorClassesDefault (AnnotF attr)
14:18:42	<iphy>	oops, sorry
14:18:50	<iphy>	https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/dwAsXj9Z/
14:19:30	<iphy>	this is not working on ghc 9.6.5 anymore, but it works on 9.4.3. am I doing something wrong? is there something new I need to do for this?
14:20:23	<iphy>	this is the error https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VqT6CteH/error
14:22:59	<tomsmeding>	iphy: is it the ghc version that makes the difference, or the version of some library? Are you using the same version of transformers-compat in both cases?
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14:29:37	<tomsmeding>	iphy: compiles for me if I add (Show, Read, Eq) to the first deriving clause
14:32:45	<tomsmeding>	my conjecture is that 9.6 changed its handling of quantified constraints, in particular the one in the superclass list of GEq1 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-compat-0.7.2/docs/Data-Functor-Classes-Generic-Internal.html#t:GEq1
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14:43:00	<iphy>	Good question, I haven't checked the versions
14:43:05	<iphy>	But thanks, I'll try that
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15:23:02	<Leonard26>	Hello! =D I was wondering if in Haskell there is a way to simulate pointers like in C/C++?
15:23:02	<Leonard26>	Particularly I am interested in reproducing this piece of code
15:23:03	<Leonard26>	static GstElement *cur_effect;
15:23:03	<Leonard26>	I'm not sure how it is even called in C, I've only learned Haskell up so far, from what I understand it's some type of static variable?
15:25:07	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> IO MVar?
15:25:42	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> unless you want to touch some unsafe stuff.
15:26:45	<Leonard26>	It tells me that the package is deprecated in favour of another.
15:26:45	<Leonard26>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/strict-mvar
15:27:27	<Leonard26>	I'm a bit concerned of the consequences of unsafe stuff, I think you mean unsafePerformIO?
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15:29:12	<l-Shane-l>	{-# LANGUAGE ForeignFunctionInterface #-}
15:29:12	<l-Shane-l>	and import Foreign.Ptr maybe?
15:30:00	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> stuff from Foreign.Marshal.Array
15:30:01	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> e.g.
15:30:56	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> again, I'd probably start with what do you want to achieve, a lot of safe options will get you quite far in Haskell
15:31:30	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> Retro fit Haskell with what you knew from other languages typically works poorly in Haskell.
15:32:55	<Leonard26>	Yes, as I understand it Haskell doens't require pointers, that's just because I'm trying to reproduce some code from C I guess
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15:34:19	<Leonard26>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/iFRl46SM
15:34:19	<Leonard26>	This is the code I'm trying to reproduce, I managed to get just about everything right but I can't get some variables to work in the functions outside of the main function.
15:34:20	<Leonard26>	Mainly pad_probe_cb and event_probe_cb
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15:36:39	<Leonard26>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9JN3hbuD
15:36:40	<Leonard26>	This is my haskell code
15:36:40	<Leonard26>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0FCFJiGp
15:36:41	<Leonard26>	And this is the error log
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15:38:36	<Leonard26>	In C all those variables are defined at the beginning of the code, like so
15:38:36	<Leonard26>	static GstPad *blockpad;
15:38:37	<Leonard26>	static GstElement *conv_before;
15:38:37	<Leonard26>	static GstElement *conv_after;
15:38:38	<Leonard26>	static GstElement *cur_effect;
15:38:38	<Leonard26>	static GstElement *pipeline;
15:38:39	<Leonard26>	But in Haskell I can't figure out a way to reproduce this =(
15:40:45	<geekosaur>	there are ways to do it, but we strongly prefer passing them in either `State` or `ReaderT` with a record of the "environment" (if they're mutable, it's `ReaderT Env IO` with `ENV` being a record of `IORef`s)
15:41:11	<geekosaur>	and use `StateT`/`ReaderT` to transparently pass it around as needed
15:41:45	<institor>	gtk on windows huh...
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15:41:56	<institor>	on a more concrete level, `source` and `pipeline` simply aren't defined
15:42:01	<institor>	what are you expecting these to be
15:42:24	<institor>	the names are just not in scope
15:43:50	<Leonard26>	They are defined in main, row 148 and 156
15:45:02	<Leonard26>	I'll read on about `State` and `ReaderT`, thank you
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16:19:02	<institor>	Leonard26: then they are only in scope in `main`
16:19:22	<institor>	Leonard26: you would do well to understand how `do` notation desugars into the bind operator
16:19:25	<institor>	as a synopsis
16:21:47	<institor>	foo :: IO ()
16:21:51	<institor>	foo = do
16:21:56	<institor>	putSTr "Enter name: "
16:22:00	<institor>	name <- getLine
16:22:07	<institor>	putStrLn $ "Hello " ++ name
16:22:09	<institor>	desugars to
16:22:13	<merijn>	In fact, for educational purposes I would recommend avoiding do notation
16:22:40	<institor>	putStr "Enter name: " >> getLine >>= (\name -> putStrLn $ "Hello " ++ name)
16:22:44	<institor>	s/putSTr/putStr
16:22:51	<institor>	sorry, i don't believe in copy/paste
16:23:02	<institor>	i agree with merijn
16:23:21	<institor>	in fact i usually consider do notation a mild code smell
16:23:27	<institor>	it suggests there is too much orchestration going on
16:23:32	<merijn>	I disagree with that, tbh
16:23:44	<merijn>	I love do notation, it's amazing
16:23:59	<merijn>	Just not for gaining understanding of what you're doing if you don't already know :)
16:24:09	<institor>	maybe
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16:24:15	<institor>	in any case i also use it liberally myself
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16:24:34	<institor>	i suppose i am just lazy to find pointfree solutions
16:24:41	<institor>	s/lazy/too lazy
16:24:57	<institor>	eh maybe i don't mean pointfree
16:25:02	<institor>	i will shut up now
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16:32:06	<Leonard26>	I'm fairly new to coding, to be honest now that I'm here I'm thinking it would have been better if I started with C in the first place because the language bindings are such hell sometimes, but at the time I didn't really know where to begin with, so now I'm just trying to finish this project in Haskell and move on :]
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16:35:12	<geekosaur>	C has its own problems, mostly that it won't stop you from shooting yourself in the foot
16:35:18	<geekosaur>	<-- longtime C programmer
16:37:10	<kuribas>	It's good to know a bit of all, basics of C, functional programming in haskell, ...
16:37:56	<c_wraith>	As far as I can tell, C makes it almost impossible to not shoot yourself in the foot.
16:38:50	<c_wraith>	You have to make simplifying assumptions before you know that adding two ints together is safe.
16:40:13	<merijn>	c_wraith: Just use unsigned :p
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16:40:37	<Leonard26>	Well, now I'm feeling relieved! :')
16:40:40	<c_wraith>	It's tempting, until you see all the bugs related to subtracting size_t values!
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16:41:48	<merijn>	Leonard26: I mean, I have written quite a lot of C/C++ professionally and I'm pretty sure I never wrote anything over 100 lines that didn't have at least several potential bugs in it despite my paranoia :p
16:43:13	<dolio>	Doesn't really seem like a claim that C is better on its own merits. Just that there's some complicated system being used that's written in C and not Haskell.
16:43:52	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> which makes them complicated
16:44:32	<Leonard26>	merijn sucks :(
16:45:13	<haskellbridge>	<hellwolf> but fair enough. I was a C++ person for a good decade or more.
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16:51:42	<Rembane>	c_wraith: Is it totally safe to subtract size_ts until you wrap around?
16:52:11	<c_wraith>	depends on your definition of "safe"
16:52:43	<Rembane>	Pick a good one!
16:52:46	<c_wraith>	it's not UB
16:52:48	<Rembane>	\o/
16:52:55	<Rembane>	Is it derp in a defined way?
16:53:25	<c_wraith>	I think it's implementation-defined
16:55:12	<c_wraith>	but in either case, it doesn't make much sense with size_t, so it's very likely to result in logic bugs elsewhere. those are the kinds of issues I was referring to
16:55:23	<Rembane>	Exciting! :D
16:55:43	<Rembane>	Maybe size_t is one of those types of number that shouldn't have subtraction nor addition.
16:55:50	<Rembane>	I don't really know, I'm just guessing.
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17:09:10	<tomsmeding>	c_wraith: are you saying that you can't subtract size_t values?
17:09:32	<tomsmeding>	("can't" in the sense of "the implementation might decide to do something weird")
17:09:42	<c_wraith>	no.
17:09:45	<geekosaur>	UB if it would be negative
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17:09:59	<c_wraith>	im pretty sure it's not UB, as it's an unsigned type
17:10:03	<tomsmeding>	unsigned integer wraparound is defined in C; does that not extend to size_t?
17:10:43	<tomsmeding>	c_wraith: "no" to "subtract" or "no" to "can't" :D
17:11:06	<c_wraith>	just that the results are often going to violate assumptions made elsewhere on the program. that has been a recurring source of bugs in programs. arithmetic that would be right with a signed type being wrong with an unsigned type
17:11:18	<tomsmeding>	because of wraparound?
17:11:23	<c_wraith>	yeah
17:11:28	<tomsmeding>	okay sure
17:11:43	<tomsmeding>	so what did you mean with "implementation-defined"?
17:12:32	<c_wraith>	I can't remember if C defines the results as wrapping, saturating, or makes it implementation-defined
17:12:45	<tomsmeding>	for regular old unsigned types, it's wrapping
17:13:03	<tomsmeding>	(certainly not saturating because then the common implementations would be wrong)
17:13:08	<c_wraith>	in all cases it is defined!
17:13:24	<tomsmeding>	and I'm fairly sure that it's actually _defined_ to wrap, not only implementation-defined
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17:14:42	<tomsmeding>	wikipedia agrees with me (last paragraph of the introduction) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_overflow
17:14:50	<tomsmeding>	now I'm aware that wikipedia is not a definitive source :)
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18:49:25	<dolio>	I tried to look in my copy of the standard, but it's hard to find stuff in there.
18:49:55	<tomsmeding>	dolio++ for even trying
18:50:14	<dolio>	I probably don't know what term to search for.
18:50:25	<tomsmeding>	the wikipedia article has a citation, perhaps that helps?
18:50:29	<tomsmeding>	it refers to C11
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18:59:55	<dolio>	I think that's probably the one I have, but they only appear to cite the entire document.
19:00:55	<tomsmeding>	dolio: I suppose you have a physical copy? With a digital one, I would search for the quoted "a computation involving unsigned operands can never overflow"
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19:01:46	<dolio>	Oh okay. Yeah.
19:02:38	<tomsmeding>	here (C11 draft: https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1570.pdf ) I find, in section 9.2.5 paragraph 9: "A computation involving unsigned operands can never overflow, because a result that cannot be represented by the resulting unsigned integer type is reduced modulo the number that is one greater than the largest value that can be represented by the resulting type."
19:02:48	<dolio>	It's defined to be modular arithmetic. And apparently the reason I was having trouble is that C considers that to not be "overflow".
19:03:20	<tomsmeding>	I agree it's somewhat confusing terminology
19:03:25	<tomsmeding>	c_wraith: ^
19:03:37	<tomsmeding>	I guess also Rembane
19:03:40	<dolio>	So if you look in the index for overflow, you won't get that page, I expect.
19:03:44	<tomsmeding>	heh
19:04:43	<Rembane>	tomsmeding: Lovely! Fun! I can't see how that every could go wrong. :D
19:05:07	<tomsmeding>	Rembane: unsigned integers wrapping? What alternative would you suggest :p
19:05:17	<dolio>	(And just searching for "overflow" in the document has too many hits.)
19:05:17	<tomsmeding>	I guess the only other sensible alternative is trapping
19:05:31	<Rembane>	tomsmeding: I think I'm more of the trapping school.
19:05:35	<Rembane>	tomsmeding: But IIRC that's super slow.
19:05:47	<tomsmeding>	Rembane: depends on the cpu, I think
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19:06:04	<Rembane>	tomsmeding: Sweet. Maybe I have mixed it up with actually doing bounds checking before the fact.
19:06:10	<tomsmeding>	x86 has an overflow (! naming ._.) flag that you can check for with a single conditional branch instruction
19:06:46	<tomsmeding>	a very predictable branch, at that, so while it does increase your code size and increases the pressure on the branch predictor cache, it won't be _too_ egregious
19:07:31	<tomsmeding>	bounds checking typically involves more than 1 instruction, perhaps even a memory load for the size of the array
19:07:57	<Rembane>	Good point. Then that instruction shouldn't be too heavy.
19:08:10	<tomsmeding>	and people have array accesses in the dependency chain (how is that called again?) in hot loops, but usually not unsigned integer arithmetic :p
19:08:31	<tomsmeding>	well, I guess index arithmetic could be unsigned integer arithmetic, but it's _signed_ integer arithmetic in practice in C
19:11:12	<monochrom>	BTW the unsigned modulo rule is (in C 2018) 6.2.5 item 9.
19:11:20	<tomsmeding>	we found it :)
19:11:40	<tomsmeding>	(though I found it in C11 -- apparently the section numbering didn't change significantly from C11 to C18?)
19:11:59	<monochrom>	Hrm maybe I should also download the C11 and other versions. (University grants access.)
19:12:26	<tomsmeding>	er -- I said "9.2.5 paragraph 9" but that was a typo/thinko, should have been 6.2.5 par 9, clearly
19:12:56	<dolio>	I assume 2018 still isn't free?
19:13:07	<tomsmeding>	are any free?
19:13:16	<dolio>	Yeah, the one I have was free.
19:13:23	<tomsmeding>	O.o
19:13:24	<dolio>	I'm not going to pay for something like that.
19:13:34	<tomsmeding>	where did you get it
19:13:47	<monochrom>	Is it a draft?
19:14:34	<tomsmeding>	drafts are free indeed, I have never seen anyone before claim that a _final_ version was free
19:14:43	<tomsmeding>	ISO won't even sell me C11 any more -.-
19:15:01	<dolio>	Ah, well, drafts are good enough for me.
19:15:19	<tomsmeding>	they are enough for everyone by plain stupidity of charging for the actual version
19:15:27	<tomsmeding>	the draft _becomes_ the de facto actual version
19:15:48	<tomsmeding>	<insert further rant about pointlessness of charging for a _standard_>
19:16:30	<dolio>	I mainly wanted it to go through and nitpick all the ways in which the supposedly glorious C standard wasn't as well defined as someone here was presenting it as.
19:16:46	<dolio>	vs. Haskell.
19:16:52	<tomsmeding>	glorious?
19:17:54	<tomsmeding>	perhaps the authors of the 701-page document can feel self-satisfied with their volume of output, and therewith call the thing "glorious"
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19:19:42	<monochrom>	Both extremes exists. There are also people who unconditionally claim "UB" and they are sometimes wrong. :)
19:21:35	<dolio>	It was some complaint that the Haskell standard doesn't nail down the exact implementation behavior of enough things. But C really doesn't, either, for a lot of things if you actually look.
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19:22:19	tomsmeding	was told at some point that the C standard actually guarantees very little about implementation details
19:23:04	<tomsmeding>	due to wanting to support platforms with very unusual (or historical) pointer representations, etc.
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19:24:42	<dolio>	Yeah. There's no guarantee that differen't types inhabit the same memory, so things like casting between different pointer types isn't necessarily kosher.
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19:25:14	<tomsmeding>	hence the cast-through-a-union dance
19:25:29	<dolio>	Or exact representations of all the integer types.
19:25:29	<tomsmeding>	because that, supposedly, _is_ defined (or so I was told)
19:25:40	<tomsmeding>	hence undefined signed integer overflow
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19:31:01	<dolio>	What is cast-through-a-union? I'd have to look, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a pointer to a union to be guaranteed to have the same address space as a pointer to either of its components.
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19:31:23	<dolio>	Also, I think there's no guarantee that writing to one field of a union and reading from a different field actually works.
19:31:39	<tomsmeding>	no it's not a general casting trick, it is essentially c++'s reinterpret_cast
19:32:04	<tomsmeding>	int32_t float_to_int(float x) { union { int32_t i; float f; } u; u.f = x; return u.i; }
19:32:21	<tomsmeding>	as opposed to what naive C enthousiasts might write:
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19:32:38	<tomsmeding>	int32_t float_to_int_wrong(float x) { return (int)&x; }
19:32:53	<tomsmeding>	er, (int32_t)&x
19:33:04	<tomsmeding>	dolio: oh isn't there? That would be funny
19:33:20	<tomsmeding>	I know people are doing this precisely to evade the "pointer casting is not necessarily defined" thing
19:33:25	<dolio>	There might be special cases where unions like that are defined to work. But not in general, I think.
19:33:46	<monochrom>	By 6.2.6.2 item 4, you get much guarantees by using memcpy(&dst, &src, the_size).
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19:34:59	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: what standard version are you looking at? In my draft copy of C11, 6.2.6.2#4 is about bitwise operators applied to negative zero
19:35:03	<tomsmeding>	(of all things)
19:35:25	<monochrom>	OK OK nitpicking: It only says "copying to unsigned char[n] is OK", they probably forgot to say anything about "from". :)
19:35:31	<monochrom>	2018
19:36:31	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: same https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2310.pdf (page 48, pdfpage 35)
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19:37:41	<probie>	tomsmeding: I'm pretty sure that use of a union is also not kosher. I'm 90% sure that reading u.i after setting u.f is UB
19:37:55	tomsmeding	is too lazy to actually go search in the standard myself
19:38:25	<monochrom>	Oh! Oops, 6.2.6.1 rule 4.
19:38:26	<tomsmeding>	probie: would that mean that memcpy() is the only defined way to look at the bits of a float value?
19:39:58	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: that "e.g." is tantalising
19:40:41	<monochrom>	Programmers probably don't make great lawyers. :)
19:42:06	<tomsmeding>	and indeed it is funny that they don't say that "copying _from_ unsigned char[n]" is fine
19:42:32	<monochrom>	"It is safe to copy your data to /dev/null" >:)
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19:44:20	<tomsmeding>	probie: footnote 99 on page 72 (pdfpage 59) in section 6.5.2.3 item 3 is relevant here ( https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2310.pdf )
19:44:35	<tomsmeding>	(found by <ctrl-F> "object repr")
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19:45:30	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: so I guess one can memcpy() to an unsigned char[n], put that in a union together with the original type, and take the original type out
19:45:45	<tomsmeding>	if you don't change the value, it's not a trap representation, and you're safe -- if I'm reading this correctly
19:47:05	<tomsmeding>	integer types can have trap representations according to the standard, so indeed probie: that union is not kosher!
19:47:25	<tomsmeding>	(the float value might have an object representation that is a trap representation for int)
19:48:04	<tomsmeding>	(then again, I used 'int32_t', not 'int' -- searching for "int32_t" doesn't have any hits, so that code was implementation-dependent anyway)
19:48:20	<tomsmeding>	what a crappy language
19:49:49	<probie>	At least you can 100% safely use unions to convert between a signed int and an unsigned int of the same size
19:50:37	<tomsmeding>	probie: it says in 6.2.6.2#5 that every signed int object repr is also a valid object repr for the unsigned int of that size
19:50:45	<tomsmeding>	it doesn't provide the reverse implication
19:50:55	<tomsmeding>	do they give that elsewhere?
19:51:32	<monochrom>	Yeah you don't even need union or memcpy for that special case.
19:51:43	<tomsmeding>	(also that)
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19:54:04	<dolio>	Are float and int compatible types? Seems like the only way the union thing might work.
19:54:11	<probie>	I should clarify; I'm not saying you should do it, I'm just saying it's a guaranteed predictable case. Since 6.2.6 doesn't explicitly specify a representation for floats, the representation is unspecified (as per 6.2.6.1.1)
19:54:13	<dolio>	But I don't see anything saying they are.
19:56:59	<tomsmeding>	dolio: "compatible" seems to be intended for equal types, composite types composed of compatible types (inductively), or enum <-> the underlying int
19:57:25	<tomsmeding>	e.g. _Generic selects by "compatible" type, which would be pointless if float and int were compatible
19:57:35	<tomsmeding>	(6.5.1.1)
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20:06:11	<probie>	If you want to "be safe" you also probably need to check that `__STDC_IEC_559__` is defined, so that you're guaranteed the normal IEEE-754 representations for floats
20:06:31	<tomsmeding>	probie: is that guaranteed to have no trap representations?
20:06:39	<tomsmeding>	is there a similar thing for `int`?
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20:14:56	<probie>	I just mean that you're guaranteed a representation. The core standard itself defines that for ints, but if `__STDC_IEC_559__` isn't defined, there's nothing stopping an implementation having `float` and `double` be the same type, or using something different to what you'd expect, like posits
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20:19:24	<tomsmeding>	probie: in my reading of the standard, it doesn't guarantee that `int` has no trap representations
20:20:00	<tomsmeding>	otherwise, in 6.2.6.2#5, the "(non-trap)" would be redundant
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20:27:55	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: reflecting a little bit, while 6.2.6.1#4 is overly restrictive in only allowing to copy _to_ unsigned char[n] and not necessarily _from_, footnote 99 in 6.5.2.3#3 does say that as long as you don't hit trap representations, you can convert through a union
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20:33:23	monochrom	downloaded the finalized C11 through university access, and snickers at the uncaught typo they had to publish a corrigendum later.
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20:34:09	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: from where did you download that? I wanna check if my university pays for this madness too
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20:35:20	<monochrom>	So basically they left, e.g., _ _STDC_VERSION_ _ defined as 201ymmL and forgot to fix that. The corrigendum then said "oh we mean 201112L". There are a couple others similar macros.
20:35:40	<tomsmeding>	that's funny
20:35:51	<monochrom>	My university library website refers me to techstreet.com.
20:35:56	<tomsmeding>	O.o
20:36:02	<monochrom>	or rather, links me to.
20:36:21	<tomsmeding>	that doesn't seem to have an A record
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20:37:19	<monochrom>	OK right it has to be subscriptions.techstreet.com
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20:38:33	<monochrom>	That is strange. I thought it was 2024 and no one would set up x.y.com without also setting up y.com.
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20:38:58	<tomsmeding>	oh this seems to be a subscription manager that your university contracted?
20:39:08	<monochrom>	Counterexample to the fundamental theorem of DNS "DNS is suffix-closed". >:)
20:39:47	<tomsmeding>	can't find anything for "9899:2024" in the title field, supposedly that should have found it
20:39:51	<monochrom>	I don't actually know.
20:40:11	<monochrom>	Right they haven't had 2024 yet, only 2018 for now.
20:40:36	<monochrom>	But they also have old ones esp. c11 and c99 if you still want them.
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21:30:48	<Zer000>	Is there a mirror for wiki.haskell.org?
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21:33:09	<tomsmeding>	the wiki has been offline since yesterday, admins are working on it -- it's a botched upgrade
21:33:37	<tomsmeding>	(i.e. known issue)
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21:55:22	<justsomeguy>	I hope they have snapshots and load balancers.
21:55:51	<mauke>	does anyone know if there's a copy of c11 freely available somewhere?
21:56:25	<mauke>	(or at least a reasonable price, i.e. not hundreds of dollars for a superseded standard)
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21:57:10	<dolio>	Is a draft good enough? I'm pretty sure I got mine from the ANSI site.
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22:01:31	<mauke>	I already have the drafts
22:03:52	<dolio>	Ah.
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22:04:21	<monochrom>	I think I heard that they don't even sell the superseded standard. (Alternatively, you can call it infinitely many dollars. :) )
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22:05:09	<mauke>	I'm still salty because at one point (in the early 2000s?) they had C89 as a pdf file for like ... $18?
22:05:24	<mauke>	but the only accepted payment method was a credit card, which I didn't have
22:06:09	<mauke>	a couple years later, when I had access to a credit card, the price was suddenly around $200
22:06:34	<mauke>	or 300?
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