Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-11-12 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:08:53 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> do the fmap definitions in prelude have some for of uniqueness property?
00:09:00 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> some form*
00:10:35 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> cough rewording
00:10:45 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> do the fmap definitions in prelude satisfy some sort of uniqueness property?
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00:24:39 <Leary> @free fmap :: (a -> b) -> F a -> F b
00:24:39 <lambdabot> g . h = k . f => $map_F g . fmap h = fmap k . $map_F f
00:25:07 <Leary> thirdofmay: Parametricity and the first functor law give you uniqueness (and the second functor law).
00:25:56 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm I'll read up on that, ty!!
00:32:11 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> Leary: is there a specific sense in which you're using "parametricity" here? getting overwhelmed by the search results
00:33:44 <Leary> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametricity
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00:34:37 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> fantastic ty
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09:02:41 <hellwolf> testing: back to irc.
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09:11:51 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> How much appeal would there be to make curry function n-ary friendly? Adding to that, having some sort of N-ary friendly type class that one can extend over?
09:11:53 <haskellbridge> I am asking because I built something for my project lately, and I have find the lack of better tuple (lest NP) friendly curry leads to my rebuilding wheels.
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09:17:13 <Leary> hellwolf: Large tuples are unidiomatic; I don't know who's going to be using enough of them to want such a thing.
09:18:22 <hellwolf> Fair enough. It is probably very specific to the use cases, which I happen to be in those.
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11:27:16 <bwe> code organisation in modules: Since I've exported only exposed functions via `module XYZ (f1, f2) where`. That means no helper functions used by f1 and f2 defined in same module. Now I've created unit tests in test file, including for helpers. Now I need to export helper functions, too, from the module (to make the tests work). What's the right approach to organise my code? As a principle, any helpers in
11:27:22 <bwe> dedicated helpers module => existing module does not expose no unnecessary functions, while tests can import helpers? Or should I leave helpers in the module but put the tests in the module itself? What's your personal experience?
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11:27:32 <Alecs> Hi, quick question, do you know if there is already a proposal to add a zero quantity to -XLinearTypes? I've tried looking in the repo for proposal but the search feature on github sucks
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11:28:04 <tomsmeding> bwe: rename your module to XYZ.Internal and just expose everything from there; then have `module XYZ (f1, f2) where import XYZ.Internal`
11:28:16 <tomsmeding> this has become convention
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11:29:40 <bwe> tomsmeding: so the real module is just reexporting the exports only, correct?
11:30:04 <bwe> tomsmeding: …and where are more of such conventions documented I since missed?
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11:33:09 <tomsmeding> yep
11:34:04 <tomsmeding> bwe: for bonus points, put {-# OPTIONS_HADDOCK not-home #-} on the .Internal module so that the f1 and f2 documentation are actually shown in the haddocks for XYZ, not through a `module` subpage into XYZ.Internal
11:34:06 <tomsmeding> ( https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/latest/markup.html )
11:34:22 <tomsmeding> I don't think conventions like these are explicitly documented anywhere
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11:53:15 <bwe> tomsmeding: how do I go about Internals of different files when they are in the same directory? new sub directory and keep them separate or may I lump them together?
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12:06:07 <bwe> tomsmeding: okay, I've solved it with MyModule/Internal.hs and MyModule.hs as siblings in a folder.
12:06:33 <tomsmeding> bwe: yeah, the idea is that if you have a module A.B.C that you want to do this trick with, you split it in A.B.C and A.B.C.Internal
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13:07:05 <divya> Building an application requires rust-1.82.0 but guix only has rust 1.77, any way to deal with this?
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13:11:55 <briandaed> divya build rust from sources and set paths to new version
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13:12:21 <briandaed> divya probably more easier paths, I don't know your setup
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13:53:20 <bwe> tomsmeding: so, I document the function where it is defined not where re-exported?
13:58:57 <divya> briandaed: Elsewhere I was linked to a channel that had latest rust, might use that.
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15:13:10 <yin> i want to alter every value of an IntMap according to some calculations based on a state record type. the IntMap is one of the fields in the state. so i have a function that looks like `step :: MyState -> MyState ; step st = st { myIntMap = IntMap.mapWithKey (f st) (myIntMap st) }`
15:13:23 <yin> f does some duplicate calculations like `calculation (myIntMap st) x = ...`. does Haskell optimize this (avoiding duplicate operations by performing some kind of memoization)?
15:14:33 <divya> I'm thinking of presenting a talk, any particular areas of haskell that you guys might like getting covered?
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15:20:15 <yin> would using foldrWithKey any differente for this? i'm guessing mapWithKey doesn not create an intermediate data structure at each step. would there be any benefit in fold vs map?
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15:23:12 <briandaed> yin: I'm not aware any implicit memoization in Haskell, there are some techniques / libraries for it, as for foldrWithKey vs mapWithKey - make a benchmark and compare what is better for you
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15:50:27 <EvanR> yin, is that the MyState isn't being updated except for the intmap itself, so it's basically being treated like a reader
15:50:53 <EvanR> unless f does something weird
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16:13:23 <yin> what's weird to me is that this still runs (m 0) twice: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1731427978188
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16:17:40 <yin> or maybe my profiling skills are very bad
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16:27:00 <yin> ok so it turns out that in simples cases like this it does optimize
16:28:17 <yin> but if i make the key an argument, it doesn't: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1731428892637
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16:41:01 <yin> this is a better example: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1731429650053
16:41:36 <yin> if i substitute `(mod k 2)` for `1` in the last line, it memoized
16:42:08 <yin> unfortunately, it doesn't otherwise
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17:00:11 <Leonard26> I involuntarily disconnected for a second, I just sent a question on the chat above this, can you see it?
17:03:22 <geekosaur> I don't see anything in the past 2 hours
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17:06:05 <Leonard26> Hello! =D How are you?
17:06:05 <Leonard26> I am trying to define a global variable in Haskell with `IORef` called `decodeElement` , it all seems to work but I am stumbling upon an error.
17:06:06 <Leonard26> I have the `elementLink` and `onElementPadAdded` function (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gst-1.0.29/docs/GI-Gst-Objects-Element.html#v:elementLink  https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gi-gst-1.0.29/docs/GI-Gst-Objects-Element.html#v:onElementPadAdded) both of which take an argument of type `Element` but the type of `decodeElement` is `::
17:06:06 <Leonard26> (MonadIO m) => IORef(m (Maybe Gst.Element))` .
17:06:07 <Leonard26> The error complains about the type not having any known parent types, what does this mean?
17:06:07 <Leonard26> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/xUF04K10
17:06:08 <Leonard26> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/PLQWn6hZ
17:06:08 <Leonard26> P.S. I can usually make `Gst.elementFactoryMake "decodebin" (Just "decoder")` work if I declare it in the `main` function by doing this `Just decode <- Gst.elementFactoryMake "decodebin" (Just "decoder")` so applying a `Just` to it. However I really need it to be a global variable and I can't really add a `Just` at the beginning of a type signature
17:06:09 <Leonard26> (I've tried'=D ). How could this be solved? Thank you in advance :)
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17:07:30 <EvanR> "parent type" ?
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17:10:39 <Leonard26> It's in the error message
17:10:40 <glguy> That sounds like a custom type error message
17:11:21 <Leonard26> Ok, how do I fix that?
17:11:44 <glguy> Dunno, but it'll be specific to that library; it's not an error message many people will have seen
17:13:19 <Leonard26> This wasn't super helpful. Anyone else know a solution to this?
17:13:52 <glguy> The error is specific to how gi-gst works. you'll need to read more into the details of how that API works and what it was expecting
17:14:12 <EvanR> it's not clear what you mean by global variable, because haskell doesn't do global variables, so you might be talking about that libraries internal logic, or some other weird inadvised hack to make a global variable
17:14:57 <EvanR> "make a global variable" sounds like the Y in the XY, so may or may not depend on the library
17:15:12 <glguy> the error comes from https://github.com/haskell-gi/haskell-gi/blob/ad1ded11a35e62be5fb7c0363bd3151378257a54/base/Data/GI/Base/Overloading.hs#L72-L75
17:16:19 <Leonard26> It's not library dependent. I was implementing the answer to this post https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16811376/simulate-global-variable
17:17:56 <Leonard26> I pretty much remember the whole library in my head at this point, that's why I came here thinking I might get some other ideas
17:18:23 <glguy> The error message in your paste was library-dependent specifically
17:19:38 <Leonard26> Not really, the `IORef` shouldn't be there, it's not typical functionality
17:22:04 <Leonard26> I need to implement some sort of global variables because I'm trying to rewrite this C code in Haskell https://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/documentation/application-development/advanced/pipeline-manipulation.html?gi-language=c#changing-elements-in-a-pipeline
17:22:04 <Leonard26> You can see that there are these variables/pointers whatever they are (I'm not good in C) that I need to reproduce in Haskell somehow
17:22:05 <Leonard26> static GstPad *blockpad;
17:22:05 <Leonard26> static GstElement *conv_before;
17:22:06 <Leonard26> static GstElement *conv_after;
17:22:06 <Leonard26> static GstElement *cur_effect;
17:22:07 <Leonard26> static GstElement *pipeline;
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17:27:09 <briandaed> glguy is right, error message has it's origin in this library, global variables sounds like trouble, you can achieve it by combining readert with mvars or whatever suits you
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17:28:12 <Leonard26> Do you have an example of how that would work?
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17:29:05 <briandaed> https://tech.fpcomplete.com/blog/2017/06/readert-design-pattern/
17:29:18 <EvanR> Reader, ReaderT
17:29:25 <EvanR> the url capitalization is painful
17:30:20 <Leonard26> Alright, I'll look into that, thank you :)
17:30:49 <briandaed> np, have fun
17:32:08 <Leonard26> I will! =D
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18:04:19 <bailsman> Is there such a thing as 'readonly view to mutable data' in Haskell? can I pass a reference created with `unsafeFreeze` to a function, and once it returns (and thus will no longer use the reference), continue to mutate the array? The documentation seems to suggest you "can no longer mutate" but I'm not sure if that's while the immutable reference exists or... ever again.
18:05:16 <Rembane> bailsman: There's the ST monad which can help you with this. Vector has quite good support for working with mutable vectors in the ST monad.
18:05:49 <bailsman> Rembane: sure. I'm happy for the function I call to be in the ST monad. I'd like to have the compiler ensure that my callee does not modify the data.
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18:07:13 <Rembane> bailsman: Do I understand you correctly, that you want to hand out a reference to mutable data that is then not modified?
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18:07:49 <bailsman> I want to give a read-only view to the data to a function, that does whatever it wants with it so long as it modified, but then after that function returns, continue mutating the data.
18:08:00 <bailsman> so long as it is *not* modified
18:09:02 <Rembane> Got it. Stupid question: why?
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18:10:45 <bailsman> so the code with the immutable reference can pretend it is pure
18:10:53 <Rembane> Because you can go from mutable to immutable and then back again. No worries at all. It's just quite expensive: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.2.0/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:freeze
18:11:14 <Rembane> Depending a bit on what your budget is of course.
18:11:43 <c_wraith> there are also the unsafe versions of freeze and thaw that *can* be O(1), but are liable to crash your program if you don't understand laziness very well
18:11:50 <bailsman> Yes, I'd like to keep the data in place and avoid O(n) operations to copy the data. I'll do that if that's the best I can do, but I'd like to be able just to create a readonly reference
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18:13:23 <bailsman> Hold on, so it is possible to use unsafeFreeze safely if you can somehow ensure the function using the immutable reference has been fully evalauted and is not just a thunk?
18:13:37 <c_wraith> yes
18:14:49 <c_wraith> Though really, if you're going to keep mutating it afterwards, you should unsafeThaw the frozen version instead of re-using the previous mutable version
18:15:00 <bailsman> Well, unfortunately, I do not understand laziness very well. What are some ways I can ensure this? I know `seq` will not work, because it's perfectly possible for that to be in WHNF while the there's still a thunk inside with the immutable reference.
18:15:13 <c_wraith> It's still O(1), but it makes the data dependency more clear
18:15:32 <bailsman> OK, that's fine. I'll unsafeThaw it after the function using the immutable reference returns.
18:15:39 <c_wraith> the brute force is evaluate + force, if you're in IO
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18:16:43 <c_wraith> evaluate is from Control.Exception, force is from Control.DeepSeq
18:17:26 <c_wraith> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deepseq-1.5.1.0/docs/Control-DeepSeq.html#v:force mentions using it with evaluate
18:17:43 <bailsman> Documentation says: All in all, attempts to modify a vector produced by unsafeThaw fall out of domain of software engineering and into realm of black magic, dark rituals, and unspeakable horrors. The only advice that could be given is: "Don't attempt to mutate a vector produced by unsafeThaw unless you know how to prevent GHC from aliasing buffers accidentally. We don't."
18:19:54 <bailsman> I'm getting the feeling I should not be trying this, and should just either eat the O(n) copy and/or pass around mutable copies instead.
18:23:25 <c_wraith> It's certainly much less fragile to let GHC's assumptions about immutability be correct
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18:29:02 <bailsman> I tracked down the github issue that introduced that comment: https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/139 -- but that seems to demonstrate the problem you were talking about. if I deepseq the function that uses the immutable reference, and only then thaw it again, am I fine?
18:29:14 <bailsman> I like O(1) better than O(n)
18:30:12 <c_wraith> I think you *should* be, but it is fundamentally placing yourself in the position of fighting against how GHC works
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18:31:34 <bailsman> Hm. And I cannot just keep using the mutable reference?
18:31:44 <bailsman> rather than thawing
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18:32:05 <bailsman> That's because what I'm calling a reference, isn't, really, internally it's setting flags on the pointer?
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18:48:54 <EvanR> another thing you can do is use an immutable structure like IntMap or Sequence instead of a mutable array
18:49:07 <EvanR> then you can much more easily pretend it is "pure"
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18:49:17 <EvanR> and GHC won't hate you
18:49:35 <EvanR> the GC works better with immutable data
18:50:23 <EvanR> another question would be how large your mutable array will typically be
18:51:04 <EvanR> if it is like "exactly 4" might as well just use immutable Vector for this or something like linear V4
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19:06:34 <bailsman> EvanR: what I want to do is something like: MVector Element, for each element updateSingleElement :: AllElements -> Element -> Element. So the update function can read the others, but update only its own thing. So updateSingleElement (and whatever it calls from there) can pretend it is in a pure world and be written simply and intuitively, but I was hoping GHC's optimizer would notice that
19:06:36 <bailsman> eventually it just gets assigned and not do any memory allocations in the hot loop.
19:07:34 <bailsman> Since this is O(n) anyway, doing a copy wouldn't change the fundamental complexity of the algorithm and likely is not going to be the slowest thing, so I can probably do an O(n) copy if I need to.
19:07:50 <EvanR> mutating objects which pure code has a reference to as if it was immutable just breaks the core logic of haskell
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19:08:00 <EvanR> it might make more sense in another language
19:08:04 <EvanR> like C++
19:08:13 <bailsman> Hm? But nothing gets mutated while updateSingleElement runs. Only once it is done, does it get assigned.
19:08:24 <EvanR> so you say
19:08:39 <EvanR> it's assuming a lot
19:08:46 <EvanR> that we don't normally have to assume or care about
19:09:09 <EvanR> how large is this vector anyway
19:09:24 <bailsman> Maybe 100K objects.
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19:09:57 <EvanR> ok that's pretty big, so if you wanted max performance you need to worry about memory locality
19:10:38 <bailsman> I'm mostly just trying to discover how I should think about things in Haskell.
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19:11:24 <EvanR> values are values, which don't change. If you mutate some object backing a value, then you have to make sure no one can ever see the old value anymore
19:11:31 <EvanR> which is tricky
19:11:39 <bailsman> Wait, I WANT the old value
19:11:49 <EvanR> the old value will be completely broken if you keep it around
19:11:55 <bailsman> there's no sequential updates, all updates are independent and should do update work based on the old value of AllElements
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19:12:48 <EvanR> if you're treating it like a mutable array, it's not a value anymore. But anyone who still sees the value version will be screwed
19:13:09 <EvanR> I assume you think that's not happening, because you carefully cleared that part of the code
19:13:53 <EvanR> this is the purely theoretical part. The practical difficulty is that mutable and immutable objects are treated totally different in the runtime system
19:14:47 <EvanR> so when you thaw something it makes a copy unless there was a rewrite rule to avoid it because of reasons
19:15:10 <bailsman> I want to write most of the logic in "normal intuitive code" but then also have the optimizer notice that it's being updated in place and not do any allocations (because I've read somewhere allocations are bad - I've not actually done any profiling)
19:15:28 <bailsman> I think what I might want to do is just do an O(n) copy of the entire mutable vector using regular freeze (not unsafeFreeze) and then do something like modify (updateSingleElement frozenCopy) index? That's one allocation, but it's kind of outside the core loop, and the whole thing is already O(n) anyway and copying some memory over is fast.
19:16:39 <EvanR> the normal intuitive way sounds like you just want a mutable array. There is a thing where you can export a mutable array that you made as a "pure" immutable array from an ST action
19:16:47 <EvanR> "for free"
19:16:50 <EvanR> but not the other way around
19:17:08 <bailsman> Every iteration of the loop, every element is going to get updated again. I want to keep modifying them over and over (in place)
19:17:18 <EvanR> mutable array it is
19:17:28 <bailsman> No, because the "pure part" of the code should not write anywhere
19:17:33 <EvanR> what pure part
19:17:41 <bailsman> updateSingleElement and everything it calls
19:18:20 <EvanR> well, the frozenCopy is going to be expensive, and there's no real way around it
19:18:59 <geekosaur> am I understanding correctly that updateSingleElement only reads, and ultimately produces a value that the impure code will actually use to mutate?
19:19:05 <EvanR> accessing a mutable array involves more book keeping than an immutable array, in the gd
19:19:06 <EvanR> gc
19:19:07 <bailsman> Is it? I wonder if it's going to be the fastest part, so fast that I'll be embarrased to have enough wondered about the issue.
19:19:18 <bailsman> geekosaur: yes
19:19:21 <EvanR> copying 100k elements?
19:19:28 <EvanR> not cheap
19:19:45 <EvanR> especially if you do it once per loop and discard it all
19:19:47 <bailsman> it's just memcopy can't you do that at terrabytes per second or something
19:19:58 <EvanR> fine then
19:20:20 <bailsman> I mean that was pretty much my worry, and why I was looking for whether "immutable references to mutable data" are a thing
19:20:29 <EvanR> see if it fits into the gc first generation
19:20:52 <EvanR> since it's temporary maybe it won't be so bad
19:21:14 <EvanR> but I expect the total cost to defeat the purpose of all this optimization talk
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19:21:50 <bailsman> So what I should do instead is design it to pass mutable references around and just not write to them where I'm not supposed to?
19:22:16 <EvanR> the whole thing being an ST action sounds like what ST is meant for
19:22:28 <EvanR> you can access the array however you want, and the whole operation will be considered pure in the end
19:22:48 <bailsman> I'm totally happy to annotate all the rest of the code however the type system needs me
19:23:07 <bailsman> but I would like the compiler to ensure that I'm not writing to the data where I don't want to be writing to it.
19:23:38 <EvanR> you can wrap your ST array in a newtype which won't allow you to write through it
19:24:08 <bailsman> Interesting. Can you make an example?
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19:24:48 <bailsman> If that's easy to do, why isn't it how freeze/thaw already works?
19:25:33 <EvanR> what I just suggested as in response to "compiler stops me from writing to it when I don't want to, because... I might accidentally write code to write to it for some reason"
19:25:54 <EvanR> which is a different subject from increasing the performance of working with an array
19:25:57 <bailsman> I wonder if that still causes the compiler to think the data is "actually mutable" and disables a ton of optimizations
19:26:17 <bailsman> I would like most of the code to be regular normal pure code
19:27:06 <EvanR> it certainly would still be treated like a mutable array
19:27:09 <EvanR> since it is
19:28:04 <EvanR> but someone noted the existence of unsafeThaw which is your trap door into "I know what I'm doing"
19:28:27 <bailsman> I don't though.
19:28:42 <EvanR> exactly
19:29:04 <EvanR> I've never really had any success violating haskell's semantics
19:29:13 <EvanR> it's just not that kind of language
19:29:32 <int-e> avoid success at all cost?
19:30:31 <Rembane> int-e: ...while studying the dark arts?
19:31:23 <int-e> . o O ( unsuccessfullyPerformIO :: IO a -> a; unsuccessfullyPerformIO = error "I'm afraid I cannot do that, Dave" )
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19:33:20 <EvanR> instead of breaking the system, maybe study ways of constructing a new system which is safe and does the optimizations
19:33:58 <EvanR> but this mindset requires respecting abstractions in play, once the game starts
19:34:27 <EvanR> and then proving what you did worked
19:35:02 <EvanR> and be willing to find the counterexamples which prove yourself wrong
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19:42:26 <int-e> oh, one more: unsuccessfullyDupablePerformIO :: IO a -> a; unsuccessfullyDupablePerformIO = error (error "I'm afraid I cannot do that, Dave")
19:46:45 <bailsman> Does code like this `for_ [0 .. MV.length v - 1)] (MV.modify v f)` have any performance gotchas? I somehow got it into my head that I want to mutate data in place for performance reasons, but I'm slowly starting to have more and more doubts.
19:46:51 <bailsman> This kind of thing should start and end with profiling probably
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19:55:05 <tomsmeding> bwe: indeed, you put the haddocks on the function where it's defined, and with the not-home haddock option you ensure that the documentation gets generated in the right place
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20:04:45 <EvanR> bailsman, it seems like a fold over an IntMap might be more idiomatic and worth benchmarking (again)
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20:06:27 <EvanR> mutable stuff can be faster but ghc puts a tax on all mutable refs for gc purposes
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21:29:32 <yin> back to my previous exercise (which is not too far from this topic): https://paste.jrvieira.com/1731429650053
21:29:56 <yin> if i substitute `(mod k 2)` for `1` in the last line, it only runs m once
21:30:45 <yin> is there any way to tell GHC to only run it once for each input?
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21:43:21 <geekosaur> not without adding explicit memoization
21:43:46 <probie> yin: If I understand what you want, I think you can do something silly like https://play.haskell.org/saved/IVYdjkap
21:46:54 <probie> You need to somehow make the argument to `m` depend on an input to the function, otherwise GHC will float `m 1` out, since it doesn't change between calls
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22:48:45 <haskellbridge> <zwro> ghc doesn't optimize that aggressively because that "memoization" is a tradeof of space for speed
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22:49:33 <haskellbridge> <zwro> i think it's good that you need to be explicit about your intentions in this case
22:50:27 <haskellbridge> <zwro> although i would love for that feature in the language
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