Logs on 2024-11-21 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:33:52 | <joeyadams> | I wrote a function to return indented JSON when using Aeson. Unlike aeson-pretty, it follows the code order of properties, as long as you override genericToEncoding. https://gist.github.com/joeyadams/63c40e5efd43f9065adf25fa19e498f2 Not sure if I should submit this to the Aeson devs, or if I'm missing a better approach. |
| 05:35:19 | <joeyadams> | It works by encoding with toEncoding, parsing it with Data.Aeson.Decoding.Tokens, then re-encoding it. Not ideal, but still reasonably fast. |
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| 06:00:27 | <probie> | My guess is that it's probably too opinionated to end up in `aeson`. It'll start flame wars about whether indentation should be 2 or 4 :p |
| 06:11:52 | <joeyadams> | The indent level should be `accursedUnutterablePerformIO randomIO` |
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| 06:49:04 | <dminuoso> | Just submit it. It will be accepted or not, and it not you will have an authoritative answer as to why or what needs changing. |
| 06:49:12 | <dminuoso> | s/and it/and if/ |
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| 07:02:45 | <joeyadams> | Thanks. I will probably generalize it a little bit first, so indentation style can be customized. Having an inverse of lbsToTokens could be useful for other reasons. |
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| 10:05:57 | <kaol> | Does GHC still use the evil mangler? |
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| 10:09:20 | <dminuoso> | kaol: The evil mangler seems to not be in GHC anymore (ghc/driver/mangler/ghc-asm.lprl) |
| 10:09:28 | <dminuoso> | kaol: That said, the question is better asked in #ghc |
| 10:17:24 | <dpk> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/evil-mangler |
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| 10:27:28 | <kaol> | Wiki page from 2011. Thanks, it was just something I was reminded of and I was curious and I didn't find any quick definite results with a search. |
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| 10:58:20 | <hellwolf> | I did a hackage search, I couldn't find exact one. But does anyone know of any library that can work with Symbol kind from GHC.TypeLits? |
| 11:01:53 | <probie> | What sort of things do you want to do with them? |
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| 11:03:30 | <jackdk> | hellwolf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/symparsec |
| 11:04:17 | <jackdk> | GHC.TypeLits also provides ConsSymbol and UnconsSymbol |
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| 11:05:51 | <hellwolf> | oh wow, that seems very extensive, great! |
| 11:08:35 | <hellwolf> | probie: I am exploring how far I could go with OverloadedLabel that can do compile-time computation/validation of the Symbol I provide. |
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| 11:08:49 | <hellwolf> | But I reach a point to conclude that the trouble is not worth it. |
| 11:09:48 | <hellwolf> | Especially with the use case I have where a runtime error tolerable (since it is a compiler of some sort, so the runtime error really is just a "higher-level" compile-time error.) |
| 11:10:53 | <hellwolf> | I would have liked #0x5aAeb6053F3E94C9b9A09f33669435E7Ef1BeAed checksum address which thorws a type error when checksum fails, vs. a runtime error of (constAddr "0x5aAeb6053F3E94C9b9A09f33669435E7Ef1BeAed") |
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| 11:27:02 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, I want to have a green thread raeding from a queue (if it is empty just block untill something available) something like CSP style channels that works with green threads. Tried to do it with stm's TBQueue and async, but apparently, you can't block forever in a STM. any idea? |
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| 11:31:35 | <geekosaur> | MVar? or Chan if you are actually going that way |
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| 11:32:58 | <Leary> | lxsameer: You can block until another thread writes to the queue, which is what you want anyway? |
| 11:33:05 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: Mvars? aren't those single value mutable vars? |
| 11:33:24 | <lxsameer> | Leary: yeah, but STM won't allow it apparently, |
| 11:33:28 | <geekosaur> | yes. think of it as a semaphore |
| 11:33:33 | <geekosaur> | in this case |
| 11:33:36 | <lxsameer> | Leary: thread blocked indefinitely in an STM transaction |
| 11:33:58 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: thanks, but I need a queue or a channel |
| 11:34:03 | <lxsameer> | for many values |
| 11:34:12 | <geekosaur> | go look at how Chan is implemented |
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| 11:34:24 | <lxsameer> | sure thank you |
| 11:34:32 | <geekosaur> | MVars are the building blocks, not the be-all and end-all |
| 11:34:46 | <geekosaur> | you block on the MVar, the actual data is elsewhere |
| 11:35:01 | <Leary> | lxsameer: It's possible you're hitting this: https://well-typed.com/blog/2024/01/when-blocked-indefinitely-is-not-indefinite/ |
| 11:35:46 | <Leary> | But generally, blocking until something writes to a queue will "just work", whether it's STM or MVar. |
| 11:36:08 | <lxsameer> | thank you both |
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| 11:56:27 | <hellwolf> | > Template Haskell allows staged metaprogramming: writing Haskell code that is executed during the compilation stage, rather than merely compiled so that it can be executed at the later runtime stage. |
| 11:56:27 | <hellwolf> | Wait, isn't that exactly a "constexpr" ? Baring that TemplateHaskell can do IO, which is more than what consexpr needs. |
| 11:56:29 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:115: error: parse error on input ‘,’ |
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| 11:58:16 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: It's not exactly constexpr, no. |
| 11:58:50 | <dminuoso> | constexpr is just the same as pure code in Haskell |
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| 11:59:57 | <dminuoso> | TemplateHaskell is basically a hook in the compiler that stops during parsing, runs some code (that can do anything, including talking to the network) that produces some AST fragments, and then the compiler inserts these AST fragments and then resumes parsing. |
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| 12:00:15 | <dminuoso> | And its that the code that is being ran itself is Haskell. |
| 12:00:46 | <hellwolf> | I see. I was making a gross comparison. But I find it inspiring reading https://github.com/well-typed/ghc-proposals/blob/wip/level-imports-2024/proposals/0000-splice-imports.rst |
| 12:00:51 | <dminuoso> | And the TH code has access to all the code that was parsed up until parsing was halted |
| 12:00:59 | <dminuoso> | So you can inspect and look at everything written before (but not after!) |
| 12:01:19 | <dminuoso> | That fact is why its labelled staged. |
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| 12:03:41 | <dminuoso> | hellwolf: arguably, *all* of haskell is constexr (in the absence of unsafePerformIO and equivalent constructs) |
| 12:03:44 | <dminuoso> | Even IO is constexpr |
| 12:04:17 | <dminuoso> | `putStrLn "foo"` is a constant expression always yielding the same thing and it has no side effects |
| 12:04:31 | <hellwolf> | indeed, (IO a) is a expression with IO effect that needs an executor to run |
| 12:04:47 | <dminuoso> | % seq (putStrLn "") () |
| 12:04:47 | <yahb2> | () |
| 12:05:31 | <dminuoso> | Its why GHC can so liberally optimize :) |
| 12:05:32 | <kaol> | I think of it as Haskell programs having an implicit runIO around them. Just in the same manner as runState etc are. |
| 12:06:05 | <hellwolf> | main function is the entry point for that implicit runIO? |
| 12:06:08 | <dminuoso> | kaol: Id go further and say that executing is not part of Haskell semantics. The RTS handles the actual execution. |
| 12:06:50 | <hellwolf> | (the day when we have a new base written with effectful IO or bluefin IO) |
| 12:06:58 | <dminuoso> | (Well to be fair, we have a bunch of semantics relating to IO behavior actually specified, for example wrt threads) |
| 12:07:06 | <hellwolf> | but not sure if the IOs in base needs that much granuararity |
| 12:08:18 | <hellwolf> | I find linearize some IO operation has more value. You can still close a file handle that had been closed. |
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| 12:12:04 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Is it correct that a major gc will stop all green threads completely? And how large does my heap have to be to make it realistic that that gc pause takes 2 or more seconds? |
| 12:12:48 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> (I don’t think that gc is at fault in my circumstance, but I am not sure either.) |
| 12:14:51 | <geekosaur> | all threads, not just green threads |
| 12:15:08 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: You can use --nonmoving-gc which will concurrently mark-and-sweep for the oldest generation at least. |
| 12:15:23 | <dminuoso> | (So if thats a concern, consider the nonmoving GC) |
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| 12:15:57 | <geekosaur> | "green threads" is a bit of nonsense when it comes to ghc; it does n:m threading, so technically all threads are "green threads" but some of them may at various times be resident on different OS threads unless you use `forkOS` |
| 12:16:25 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> First I need to find a good reproducer, I guess.^^ |
| 12:16:57 | <geekosaur> | also if you use parallel GC the stop-the-world is brief. (early versions of that worked poorly but it was redone around 9.0 or 9.2 and works much better now) |
| 12:17:21 | <dminuoso> | Also, rather than asking how likely it is for GC to take that long, turn on profiling and tell us about how much live memory you have. :-) |
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| 12:17:45 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Last I checked about 200MB or something … |
| 12:17:45 | <geekosaur> | also RTS statistics can tell you basic information about it, I think |
| 12:18:03 | <dminuoso> | GC on 200MB residency should not take 2 seconds. |
| 12:18:19 | <dminuoso> | Here I was, thinking this is going to be some 117GiB program. :-) |
| 12:19:21 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> I mean it kinda happens at a moment where I parse a lot of files so allocations might be much higher than residency. |
| 12:19:55 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> But I guess I will not get information out of you without starting profiling. 😄 |
| 12:20:33 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> But my strong suspicion is anyway that all my capabilities get blocked by unsafe FFI. |
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| 12:22:20 | <geekosaur> | also something that sounds silly but can be somewhat informative: +RTS +B (ring the terminal bell on each GC) |
| 12:23:17 | <geekosaur> | more practically, if you truly suspect GC stop-the-world as the problem, +RTS --long-gc-sync |
| 12:23:32 | <geekosaur> | which prints a warning if the sync time is 1ms or greater |
| 12:23:43 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> geekosaur: Yeah, I thought about actually enabling that. |
| 12:23:57 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Ah, that warning sounds useful. |
| 12:24:00 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Thanks for the input. |
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| 17:16:36 | <c_wraith> | Is there an eliminator function for a single level of list constructors somewhere in base? Like b -> (a -> [a] -> b) -> [a] -> b |
| 17:17:40 | <c_wraith> | I guess if it's in the extra package it's not going to be in base |
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| 17:39:33 | <kaol> | :t \b f xs -> maybe b (flip f (tail xs)) $ listToMaybe xs |
| 17:39:34 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> [a] -> b) -> [a] -> b |
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| 17:40:53 | <kaol> | @pl \b f xs -> maybe b (flip f (tail xs)) $ listToMaybe xs |
| 17:40:53 | <lambdabot> | flip flip listToMaybe . (ap .) . (. ((. tail) . flip)) . (.) . maybe |
| 17:41:10 | <kaol> | Ok, that's silly, don't do that. |
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| 20:54:42 | <ph88> | implementing tree zipper to change the shape of an AST, is that possible to do with GHC.Generics? how would that look like, i asked ChatGPT but it can't make much of it |
| 20:57:55 | <glguy> | Can you show an example of doing it by hand? |
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| 20:58:18 | <ph88> | no i haven't tried anything yet. I' |
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| 20:58:36 | <ph88> | no i haven't tried anything yet. I'm still in exploration phase comparing several approaches |
| 20:59:24 | <glguy> | Once you make a manual version it'll be easier to ask if generics can do the same transformation |
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| 21:00:21 | <ph88> | i kind of ruled out Data.Data, syb, free monads with fixpoint types. And i'm left with tree zipper with GHC.Generics and Recursion Schemes (library) |
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| 21:00:54 | <ph88> | i guess at this point i will try to implement the two possible approaches since chatgpt gets stuck giving me any better advice |
| 21:06:38 | <glguy> | ph88: I was hoping to see the hand-written example of what you wanted to automate because I'm unclear what you're even trying to do |
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| 21:08:25 | <ph88> | i want to inspect nodes in an AST when going up and down, then look around (up and down), to change the shape of the AST or attach more information to the nodes |
| 21:08:59 | <Rembane> | ph88: Have you taken a look at this one? https://www.michaelpj.com/blog/2020/08/02/lenses-for-tree-traversals.html |
| 21:09:06 | <Rembane> | ph88: Any particular shape changes you want to do? |
| 21:10:11 | <ph88> | Rembane, thanks for the link. However my AST is not a big sum type but several separate types. |
| 21:11:18 | <ph88> | I want the ability to change the AST. But at the moment i'm looking to add some information to nodes. Specifically i need to know when there is a function call to which other node this call has to go. (i will number the nodes by the way) |
| 21:11:44 | <Rembane> | ph88: You can write many traversals instead of one, but that might still not solve your problem. |
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| 21:18:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> ph88 zippers can be done with multirec https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zipper, with Typeable https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pez, with Data https://hackage.haskell.org/package/syz and probably with more stuff but those were the first hits on Hackage |
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| 21:24:07 | <ph88> | Bowuigi ye i saw all of those and decided to try two different approaches first, thanks though |
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| 21:28:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Fair enough |
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