Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-11-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:57 <geekosaur> godbolt and play.haskell.org are both on github. I think so is whatever's backing the haskell.org try-me
00:02:25 <hellwolf> haskell.org one selectively filter out some features, I wonder how that's done.
00:02:43 <geekosaur> mueval probably
00:03:03 <geekosaur> @hackage mueval
00:03:03 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mueval
00:04:14 <hellwolf> that's coool... thanks for the pointer. It most probably need some tweaks for my case, but since I don't need IO, I hope the tweaks wouldn't be too hard
00:04:54 <geekosaur> there's nothing that runs in the browser without backend support, and even wasm / js backends are probably not going to help (really? download ghc-in-wasm/js to a user's browser?)
00:05:33 <hellwolf> it seems roc-lang does exactly that! we should/will catch up!
00:06:02 <mauke> just compile hugs to js
00:06:38 <hellwolf> :)
00:06:41 <geekosaur> that might fly
00:07:04 <hellwolf> I am already ghc2024+ dependent, yikes.
00:07:19 <geekosaur> hellwolf, I'd be really surprised if loading a ghc compiled to wasm or js into a browser didn't OOM the user
00:07:32 <geekosaur> ghc is huge
00:09:10 <hellwolf> What you said makes sense. Though I may have misremembered, but terror jack said something about GHC in Wasm.
00:09:41 <geekosaur> wasm can be run in non-browser runtimes
00:10:08 <geekosaur> put it on top of how much memory a browser needs by itself and… yeh, I expect major memory issues
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00:11:25 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> I found it: https://vaibhavsagar.com/blog/2024/07/03/ghci-in-the-browser/
00:12:07 <hellwolf> I didn't misremember. I had seen this one.
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00:14:41 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/bJUWTIPBEmMJNohBYwvLLXWO/LdvwDEPJ5yc/image.png
00:14:57 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> not the fastest experience in my firefox, but it worked in principle.
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00:18:10 <haskellbridge> <sm> Nice to see someone else checking out roc-lang
00:20:59 <hellwolf> I have not used it. But somehow it occurred to me that I should checkout their website for inspiration.
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02:02:16 <dmj`> microhs has emscripten support
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03:38:08 <geekosaur> hello
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08:37:53 <tomsmeding> hellwolf: the playground backend is reusable by others
08:38:20 <tomsmeding> but I request anyone using it to be considerate :)
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08:52:25 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> Of course, that's why I will consider self-hosting an instance.
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10:39:21 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> Sunday muse: to make it friendly to people not acquainted with Haskell/ML family of languages, is there any merit of mentioning the curly bracket based syntax in starting materials, or it risks of creating a syntactic isolated island of new joiners?
10:40:13 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> (though, Python has also layout based syntax, and it's mainstream enough nowadays)
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10:41:52 <Rembane> @hellwolf Sidenote: Have a look at Gleam for a ML with curly brackets.
10:41:52 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
10:42:04 <Rembane> Oh well
10:44:32 <haskellbridge> <hellwolf> My personal experience is that Haskell without brackets is one source that makes everything more terse. And one downside is that it can be an overwhelming visual impression with an in your face even for me. I still prefer it, but I am thinking about how far we should go to make it beginner ready.
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10:58:17 <tomsmeding> GHC contains plenty of code in {;} style, because SPJ somewhat prefers it
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11:05:29 <lxsameer> what is the {;} style?
11:06:59 <mauke> using {;} for blocks, not indentation
11:07:15 <mauke> a.k.a. "layout"
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11:11:35 <lxsameer> mauke: ahhh, had no idea haskell supports that
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11:12:48 <mauke> how else are you going to write code on IRC?
11:13:13 <Rembane> > let x = 7\n in x + 2
11:13:14 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: error: parse error on input ‘in’
11:13:19 <Rembane> Apparently not like that. :D
11:13:27 <mauke> % do { putStr "hel"; putStr "lo,"; putStr " wo"; putStr "rld" }
11:13:27 <yahb2> hello, world
11:13:47 <mauke> > let { x = 7; y = 2 } in x + y
11:13:48 <lambdabot> 9
11:16:48 <hellwolf> It is almost like a conspiracy why this syntax is lesser known...
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11:17:14 <hellwolf> tomsmeding: indeed, I wonder why... the sort of opinion from SPJ that we never asked :)
11:18:26 <Leary> When you have line breaks and indentation, curlies and semi-cola are just noise.
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11:18:50 <__monty__> I do get layout wrong with do blocks occasionally but in languages with line terminating characters half the time my compilation errors are about forgetting to terminate lines properly, so I can't say I'm surprised layout is by far more popular.
11:18:56 <hellwolf> I don't have evidence that this would help on the "friendliness" of Haskell to beginners at all. But I do suspect people are more tuned in for deliberate visual marks that "{}" serves as a purpose.
11:19:15 <Rembane> hellwolf: I suppose spaces don't count as visual marks?
11:19:33 <hellwolf> much less, since spaces having other purposes.
11:20:34 <hellwolf> also I wonder if Haskell is dyslexic friendly
11:21:02 <hellwolf> *indentation layout
11:21:46 <hellwolf> Leary: noise maybe, but visual aids it could be.
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11:22:58 <hellwolf> I do think I personally prefer terseness indentation layout offers. But I am also conscious of its scariness to some people, either inherently or just programming-culturally.
11:23:32 <tomsmeding> I think python is the elephant in the room here
11:24:01 <tomsmeding> while it's true that haskell does more with indentation than python does, I haven't ever heard anyone complain about meaningful indentation in python
11:24:46 <tomsmeding> and indeed while haskell does _more_ with indentation than python does, it's not really more complicated; the only thing that haskell has and that python does not, is that you can start indented blocks on the same line as the syntax that introduces the block
11:25:06 <tomsmeding> e.g. you python will not accept this, but the equivalent would be valid haskell
11:25:13 <tomsmeding> while c: stmt1
11:25:17 <tomsmeding> stmt2
11:25:29 <tomsmeding> (assuming monospace irc clients here)
11:26:07 <tomsmeding> I don't think this is a profound enough innovation to really scare people away from haskell where they wouldn't be scared away from python
11:26:47 <Rembane> tomsmeding: I think the Python indentation mutterings were done while Perl was still a popular language, because I do remember them, but I haven't heard any in recent years. Maybe my snake-hearing just has gone bad over time.
11:27:01 <mauke> "I haven't ever heard anyone complain about meaningful indentation in python" <- I have. I do.
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11:27:11 <hellwolf> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1463451
11:27:24 <hellwolf> Yes, python indentation was very controversial.
11:27:35 <hellwolf> Even from my recollection of memory of early day pythons.
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11:30:09 <tomsmeding> heh, I see
11:30:22 <mauke> I've said this before, but: I used to think significant whitespace syntax sucks until I learned haskell. then I realized I just hate python.
11:30:25 <tomsmeding> well in 2010 I waas about 12 years old :)
11:31:02 <tomsmeding> @remember mauke I used to think significant whitespace syntax sucks until I learned haskell. then I realized I just hate python.
11:31:02 <lambdabot> Done.
11:32:09 <hellwolf> :) nice
11:33:03 <hellwolf> but okay, let's keep "{}" fringe. I shall not promote or mention it. It's an advanced and controversial topic that beginner should stay away from..
11:33:25 <Rembane> hellwolf: I think you should create an alternate syntax for Haskell for the lulz. :D
11:33:26 <tomsmeding> at the very least, it is de facto like that
11:33:35 <mauke> I'd definitely mention {}; when introducing 'do'
11:33:38 <mauke> maybe earlier
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11:33:59 <mauke> @quote mauke
11:33:59 <lambdabot> mauke says: the first rule of fix club is "the first rule of fix club is "the first rule of fix cl
11:34:09 <tomsmeding> :)
11:34:38 <hellwolf> having said that, I do enable BlockArguments by default... I guess I am not very principled here for syntax issues.
11:34:59 <Rembane> > fix error -- fix club reminds me of ...
11:35:01 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
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11:43:50 <hellwolf> > <mauke> I'd definitely mention {}; when introducing 'do'
11:43:50 <hellwolf> How so?
11:43:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘<’
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11:46:21 <TMA> my $.02 to the indentation deba(t|cl)e: I have hated Haskell for the indentation and I have done likewise for python. However, I have started to like Haskell for its other virtues. I became soft as years passed. Python, unlike Haskell, lacks redeeming qualities to lift my dislike -- it is just a Blub with syntax inconvenient for refactoring
11:46:30 <__monty__> I would also not hide brace syntax. Just in case a particular beginner doesn't handle layout well. It's more important they learn Haskell's semantics than its syntax.
11:47:20 <mauke> hellwolf: what do you mean, how?
11:48:04 <mauke> I'd start by describing the do { ...; ...; ... } desugaring and then explain that the semicolons/braces can be replaced by layout
11:49:03 <hellwolf> I meant to ask why do you think it should be mentioned; since the alternative is not to mention it until people encounter it and asks the obvious question.
11:49:41 <mauke> makes the desugaring much easier to explain, I think
11:50:04 <mauke> do { let BINDINGS; ... } ==> let BINDINGS in do { ... }
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11:50:20 <mauke> do { PAT <- EXPR; ... } ==> EXPR >>= \pat -> do { ... }
11:50:35 <mauke> do { EXPR; ... } ==> EXPR >> do { ... }
11:50:42 <mauke> do { EXPR } ==> EXPR
11:51:44 <mauke> > do { 2 } + do { 2 }
11:51:46 <lambdabot> 4
11:51:57 <hellwolf> It all makes sense for learnt Haskellers, for sure. I am not sure you can explain the beginner >> >>=, yet :)
11:52:31 <mauke> you pretty much have to, for I/O
11:52:42 <hellwolf> Indeed.
11:53:50 <mauke> I'd start with basic expressions, functions, simple data types, parameterized types, recursive types like lists
11:54:20 <mauke> probably reimplement a good chunk of Data.List as exercises, to get used to pattern matching and recursion
11:54:54 <mauke> and then a non-monadic version of pure/>>/>>= specialized to IO
11:55:08 <mauke> and once you're used to that, do-notation
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11:56:30 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Right after that, lenses (:
11:56:35 <hellwolf> I agree with that for beginner's guide of general Haskell.
11:57:13 <hellwolf> and probably discourage the usage of "return".
11:57:58 <mauke> the main problem with 'return' is that the name is confusing to anyone coming from a C-like language
11:58:24 <hellwolf> that's right.
11:59:00 <mauke> not only is it not a keyword, but a library function, it also acts like a constructor
11:59:10 <hellwolf> that didn't quite explain the need of using "{;}" to explain things. But I guess it is used for invoking familiarity.
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12:00:06 <mauke> one step at a time
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12:00:38 <mauke> also, they will probably run into issues combining layout-based 'let' and layout-based 'do'
12:02:26 <hellwolf> Likely. If things work, great; if not, you might face cryptic error messages that require some understanding of things under the bonnet.
12:02:42 <hellwolf> *to decypher.
12:04:58 <hellwolf> Having said these. What I am dappling with is an embedded language, though. Luckily I don't need to deal with IO, but I got a "linear types" chain of applications to explain, which is exotic even for Haskellers. I am trying to minimize the need for linear types as much as possible, to use it only for its "safe" properties. I think I am getting there... Back to work..
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15:56:31 <haskellbridge> <flip101> Can someone help with these errors? https://github.com/myuon/ghc-compiler-notes/pull/36
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22:23:14 <ramennudel> After watching a few videos & reading some tutorials, I've wanted to try out Diagrams myself. As it's not available via Haskell Playground, I've gone for doing my first steps locally (Nix). But whatever I do, `cabal build` always yields `* Missing (or bad) header file: zlib.h↵* Missing (or bad) C library: z`. I've tried `--allow-newer=all
22:23:14 <ramennudel> --allow-older=all` as well as some Nix-specific tweaks. Any ideas?—`/tmp/30717-12.c:1:10: […] zlib.h: No such file or
22:23:15 <ramennudel> directory
22:23:15 <ramennudel> 1 | #include "zlib.h"↵[…]Failed to build JuicyPixels-3.3.9 because it depends on JuicyPixels-3.3.9 which itself failed to build.`
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22:26:55 <geekosaur> you need the C zlib headers and libraries. with Nix that means `nix-shell -p zlib`
22:27:43 <geekosaur> or see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58326843/equivalent-of-passing-p-zlib-argument-to-nix-shell-in-shell-nix
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22:40:30 <ramennudel> geekosaur Thank you very much, I’ve already been doing so using the flakes equivalent (`nix shell nixpkgs/zlib`respectively `nix shell nixpkgs/zlib{,.dev,.out}`), but now trying the ‘traditional’ command, it works out. It's a real win, as it allows me to try out Diagrams, but I'm failing to wrap my mind around the change in result …
22:41:54 <geekosaur> I'm not really a Nix person, and in particular flakes have been added since I last poked at it so I can't say much about them
22:44:00 <geekosaur> "Failed to build JuicyPixels-3.3.9 because it depends on JuicyPixels-3.3.9" I might have to report that one unless you're using an older version of cabal
22:44:25 <geekosaur> I think it's an internal library dependency, but your version of cabal doesn't show the selectors involved
22:44:47 <geekosaur> (i.e. one of them should have a "lib:" prefix)
22:46:20 <ramennudel> geekosaur Very fine to having had your suggestion, as—for now—it's the result that counts. `cabal --version` outputs `cabal-install version 3.12.1.0↵compiled using version 3.12.1.0 of the Cabal library.
22:46:30 <geekosaur> huh.
22:46:44 <geekosaur> that's up to date, at least for the next few days 🙂
22:46:53 <geekosaur> (3.14.1.0 about to be released)
22:47:04 <ramennudel> So it's `unstable` on Nix.
22:49:43 <ramennudel> (I've also been grinning on that one, but didn't know if that's a desired output, as I'm no intimate Cabal maven.)
22:50:55 <geekosaur> it's got a lot of bug fixes compared to earlier versions, so we consider it preferred
22:53:36 <ramennudel> Anyone else out here with some theory on a particular reason for why `nix-shell` acts that much different than `nix shell`, as the observed behavior more or less smashed my worldview?^^
22:55:08 <hellwolf> because they are different things? (please ask in the nixos channel :))
22:55:56 <hellwolf> or try "$ echo "nix-shell and nix shell are different, why" | chatgpt"
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23:01:11 <ramennudel> 4o suggests me “Legacy vs. Flakes: nix-shell is for the traditional Nix expressions (e.g., shell.nix), while nix shell is designed for the modern Flakes-based workflow (flake.nix).↵Command Style: nix-shell uses a more general-purpose environment setup, while nix shell is more focused on using Flakes to directly obtain dependencies or shell
23:01:11 <ramennudel> environments.↵Reproducibility: nix shell aims for better reproducibility and is more consistent across different systems, thanks to the use of Flakes, which lock dependencies and configurations.” as key differences, but none of them are a surprise for me, but if the complexity of that topic makes it getting out of scope of the setting here,
23:01:12 <ramennudel> I'll switch over to another channel …
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