Logs on 2024-11-25 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:04:00 | <Guest2094> | There was this old paper that showed how to calculate e to arbitrary precision by writing it as 2.111..., and converting it. It was in Miranda, though. Does anyone recognize it? I'm trying to find it again and wanted to see how it worked. |
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| 04:21:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> I don't have the paper but I can get the literate source file from the Miranda examples |
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| 04:24:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/V0T1qcn1 |
| 04:24:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Lmao I messed up |
| 04:25:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kQbZKa5y |
| 04:26:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> There it is. Miranda highlighting is nonexistent but it looks similar enough to Haskell to be readable |
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| 10:17:46 | <enikar> | I found this article about how to compute the digits of e: http://numbers.computation.free.fr/Constants/E/e.html |
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| 10:26:06 | <kqr> | I was reading about Monad of no return[1] and one of the paragraphs ends with "This unfortunate situation also blocks us from being able to remove" |
| 10:26:09 | <kqr> | the post-AMP method redundancy in the Foldable/Traversable classes. |
| 10:26:26 | <kqr> | Which methods are these? I can guess sequence/sequenceA, but are there more like that? |
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| 10:34:05 | <enikar> | there is also mapM, mapM_, and probably others, I think to filterM and foldM but I'm not sure. |
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| 10:39:13 | <kqr> | Hm. I always confuse Foldable and Traversable. Which is the weaker/more general constraint? I imagine it to be Foldable but I get unsure. |
| 10:40:10 | <kqr> | Actually that's easy to look up. Traversable implies Foldable |
| 10:41:07 | <kqr> | Oh yeah, mapM = traverse. Never realised that. I'm learning so much today. |
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| 10:48:39 | <jackdk> | kqr: you can also build `foldMap` out of `traverse` using the `Const r` applicative, showing that every Traversable is Foldable. |
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| 10:50:34 | <enikar> | kqr: you should read typeclassopedia, it is on https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell. Unfortunately, it's broken for now. |
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| 10:53:29 | <jackdk> | https://wiki.haskell.org/index.php?title=Typeclassopedia Looks like they haven't got the old links working but I could get it with a search |
| 11:00:39 | <enikar> | there is this information: https://status.haskell.org/ |
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| 11:35:56 | <kqr> | Thanks! The Haddocks on Traversable and Foldable are also much richer than I remember them to be! |
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| 13:06:34 | <hellwolf> | I vaguely remember that there was a proposal where you could quote monidically bound values. Hence you can write `doSomeIO $(getValueIO)` vs. `a <- getValueIO; doSomeIO`. Baring the actual quote syntax that I cannot recall now. |
| 13:06:40 | <hellwolf> | Does anyone remember this one? |
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| 13:20:51 | <Leary> | hellwolf: I don't know about a proposal, but there's <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monadic-bang>. |
| 13:23:34 | <hellwolf> | monadic-bang, that's the word |
| 13:24:26 | <hellwolf> | very tempted to use it... while I am using a lot of GHC extensions, but I do pause a little when using plugins... |
| 13:24:54 | <hellwolf> | having concerns around maintainability since plugins can be orphaned |
| 13:25:25 | <hellwolf> | maybe this is a unwarranted concern. |
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| 15:33:55 | <slack1256> | I got the following error: error in RTS option -nonmoving-gc: size outside allowed range. Does it ring a bell for anybody? |
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| 15:46:54 | <carbolymer> | what would be the best name for this class instead of Foo / foo: class Foo (f :: k -> Type) (g :: k -> Type) where foo :: forall x. f x -> g x |
| 15:49:32 | <Rembane> | carbolymer: It looks like a composition |
| 15:50:54 | <carbolymer> | Rembane: but you're not composing anything, but swapping f for g. it could be GADT, or whatever |
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| 15:51:27 | <Rembane> | carbolymer: Oh, I misread. Could it be a natural transformation? |
| 15:51:48 | <Rembane> | carbolymer: ...but it's not a functor, so... |
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| 15:54:10 | <carbolymer> | Rembane: that could be, I'm wondering if there's any other intuitive name for that |
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| 15:55:14 | <Rembane> | carbolymer: I hope so, Replacement could be another name. |
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| 16:01:28 | <carbolymer> | Replacement is nice, maybe shorter Replace would work, thanks |
| 16:01:42 | <Leary> | carbolymer: Why a type class? Natural transformations are hardly unique. The synonym `type f ~> g = forall x. f x -> g x` is typical, and that should be all you need. |
| 16:02:05 | <Rembane> | carbolymer: No worries! |
| 16:02:46 | <carbolymer> | Leary: I have a handful of types which are injected one into the other. So I'm rather looking for a uniform conversion api, rather than a constraint |
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| 16:03:59 | <carbolymer> | I guess I could just use `class Inject a b where inject :: a -> b` but it requires sometimes type application to make it work. Foo I posted solves minor culprit. |
| 16:04:33 | <carbolymer> | s/minor culprit/that minor issue/ |
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| 16:27:32 | <merijn> | SlackCoder: Well, have you checked the GHC user's guide to see what values are valid? :p |
| 16:27:45 | <merijn> | ah, tab completion fail |
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| 18:29:33 | <bailsman> | Can you make an IO action that gives an error if you call it a second time? (but not the first time) |
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| 18:30:05 | <mauke> | sure, put an IORef in there |
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| 18:32:18 | <bailsman> | That's runtime, right? |
| 18:33:55 | <bailsman> | By the way, hold on, if you do newIORef in a do block and call it twice, you get the same one every time? That's... very useful. Probably should have been obvious to me. |
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| 18:42:52 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: no, there's a difference between constructing the same pure expression (e.g. `newIORef x`) multiple times, which indeed does the same thing every time, and _running_ an IO action multiple times, which certainly does run it multiple times |
| 18:43:03 | <tomsmeding> | running `newIORef x` multiple times in IO gives you multiple different IORefs |
| 18:43:23 | <tomsmeding> | % let action = putStrLn "hi" in action >> action |
| 18:43:23 | <yahb2> | hi ; hi |
| 18:43:33 | <tomsmeding> | there's only one IO action here, but it's run twice |
| 18:44:09 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: a value that you can use only once is in general not a thing in haskell: it's a functional language and you can use values as many times as you like |
| 18:44:26 | <tomsmeding> | the one thing that allows you to express something like "can be used exactly once" is LinearTypes |
| 18:44:37 | <tomsmeding> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/linear_types.html#extension-LinearTypes |
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| 18:55:10 | <bailsman> | Thanks. |
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| 19:36:09 | <mauke> | % let mkAction = do { r <- newIORef False; pure (do x <- readIORef r; if x then fail "already ran once" else do writeIORef r True; pure 42) } in let a = mkAction in a |
| 19:36:09 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:111:26: error: [GHC-88464] ; Variable not in scope: newIORef :: Bool -> m3 t0 ; ; <interactive>:111:56: error: [GHC-88464] ; Variable not in scope: readIORef :: t0 -> m4 Bool... |
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| 19:43:24 | <tomsmeding> | % import Data.IORef |
| 19:43:24 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
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| 20:44:28 | <bailsman> | Hmm... is using existential types or multistate a somewhat unusual thing to do? It seems that way. |
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| 20:45:34 | <geekosaur> | not that unusual. there are, however, some misuses of them that cause some programmers to avoid them entirely instead of using them with care |
| 20:46:12 | <geekosaur> | also, many uses of explicit existential types have been replaced with use of GADTs, which are in effect existential types with some usage guarantees |
| 20:46:37 | <geekosaur> | uh, not guarantees. "constraints"? |
| 20:47:01 | <bailsman> | Is there a "list of antipatterns" somewhere? I still struggle to get out of an imperative mindset sometimes |
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| 20:49:14 | <geekosaur> | the only ones I've seen are themselves antipatterns |
| 20:49:47 | <geekosaur> | Haskell doesn't so much have simple antipatterns as complex situations one should avoid, where the same "pattern" is entirely valid in other contexts |
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| 20:50:15 | <bailsman> | The reason I ran into (possibly) wanting existential types is because I wanted to "dependency inject" an object into another module, then store it in a record for later use. |
| 20:50:24 | <tomsmeding> | well, I guess NPlusKPatterns is an antipattern. :P |
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| 20:50:39 | <Rembane> | bailsman: Have you considered using higher order functions instead? |
| 20:50:48 | <bailsman> | now when I want to put it in a record, I have to make a dependency from that module to the concrete implementation |
| 20:50:52 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: why not give the functions and data types in that module a type parametter? |
| 20:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | no need to hide the parametrisation |
| 20:51:11 | <tomsmeding> | (typically) |
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| 20:51:22 | <[exa]> | bailsman: ...or make a typeclass that describes that injected dependency (to save some work with passing around the function(s)) |
| 20:51:35 | <tomsmeding> | (in which case you'll still need to make said functions/data types polymorphic) |
| 20:51:44 | <bailsman> | Well, that means everywhere I use my data type, I have to keep repeating that type variable |
| 20:51:59 | <bailsman> | I guess I don't need existential types, I just don't care what that type is omst of the time, so I don't want to keep writing it |
| 20:52:14 | <tomsmeding> | you don't need to write the full type, just the parameter :) |
| 20:52:17 | <bailsman> | I know |
| 20:52:18 | <tomsmeding> | but yes, that's what people tend to do |
| 20:52:40 | <Rembane> | You can also use the `type Rawr = RawrT Identity` trick |
| 20:52:43 | <bailsman> | OK yes and I can constrain that parameter with a typeclass, so I can still use it everywhere |
| 20:52:46 | <Rembane> | Or perhaps technique |
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| 20:53:07 | <Rembane> | With loads of examples in the transformers library |
| 20:53:27 | <bailsman> | Rembane: wait what? Can you explain what that does? |
| 20:53:34 | <tomsmeding> | just a type synonym :) |
| 20:53:50 | <Rembane> | bailsman: What tomsmeding just said. :) |
| 20:53:52 | <bailsman> | but does that still make it parametric? |
| 20:53:58 | <tomsmeding> | if you find yourself typing 'RawrT Identity' everywhere, do that, then you'll just need to type Rawr |
| 20:54:15 | <bailsman> | No but wait. Aren't I typing `RawrT a` everywhere? |
| 20:54:18 | <tomsmeding> | you'd do this after you've chosen the instantiation |
| 20:54:26 | <tomsmeding> | you'd use `RawrT a` in the implementation |
| 20:54:39 | <bailsman> | Oh, the type alias is in the consumer, not the provider |
| 20:54:42 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 20:54:54 | <bailsman> | OK, nice. This is all making sense now. Let me try. |
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| 20:56:31 | <bailsman> | BTW, -O2 makes this zero-cost? Or would it somehow run faster if it knew the concrete types everywhere |
| 20:56:49 | <Rembane> | Zero-cost! |
| 20:56:56 | <Rembane> | If you build it on newtype |
| 20:57:22 | <Rembane> | If you build it on data it costs something, can't say how much though, 'cause I don't know. type should be zero-cost too. |
| 20:57:23 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: if the compiler knows the concrete type, instead of using methods from a type class, then the compiler can inline the implementations of those methods |
| 20:57:25 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 20:57:44 | <bailsman> | It sort of knows them, but it's across module boundaries |
| 20:57:58 | <tomsmeding> | if it's abstract, then you rely on GHC being able to inline your abstract module's functions into the consumer, before being able to specialise your module's code to the instantiation |
| 20:58:20 | <tomsmeding> | if nothing gets inlined, you lose some specialisation = you get more indirection |
| 20:58:49 | <tomsmeding> | compared to this, newtype vs data is no more than a sidenote I think :p |
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| 20:59:32 | <bailsman> | What would prevent such inlining? |
| 20:59:35 | <tomsmeding> | a typical situation where this pops up is Monad: if you have code that is polymorphic over the monad it runs in (e.g. foo :: Monad m => ... -> m Int), then all uses of (>>=) in foo, of which there are usually a lot, will be indirect function calls |
| 20:59:49 | <tomsmeding> | unless foo gets inlined into a place where `m` is known! |
| 21:00:18 | <tomsmeding> | beceause then that inlined code can get specialised, the specific implementation of (>>=) can get inlined into that, and hence you lose lots of indirect function calls, which makes your cpu happy |
| 21:00:36 | <bailsman> | That's what I'm worried about. Like, in theory, the compiler knows all the concrete types. But it might not propagate them where they're needed (i guess the only 'propagation' is inlining?) |
| 21:00:37 | <tomsmeding> | and ghc because there's typically lots of optimisations/cancellations that that makes available |
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| 21:00:50 | <tomsmeding> | inlining is the big enabler of almost all optimisations |
| 21:01:12 | <tomsmeding> | GHC is faily aggressive about inlining anyway, but if functions get too big, or if functions are recursive, GHC is more hesitant to inline them |
| 21:01:38 | <bailsman> | is there a less verbose way than -ddump_simpl to show what has happened |
| 21:01:41 | <bailsman> | like how much indirection ther eis |
| 21:01:44 | <[exa]> | bailsman: typically people just label the performance-sensitive stuff with inline pragmas. Which is clumsy but serves well both to users and to the poor confused compiler |
| 21:02:14 | <tomsmeding> | so yes, if you access call lots of functions from the typeclass for this object, and those calls are short and many, then the abstraction we're talking about will have a cost |
| 21:02:25 | <tomsmeding> | but using an existential has the exact same cost, because it's still an unknown type then |
| 21:03:05 | <tomsmeding> | only actually putting the instantiation into your module literally will guarantee absence of this indirection, but that's coupling that you seem to want to avoid |
| 21:03:20 | <tomsmeding> | to be noted is that this indirection is the same as what happens in ~every other language, including C++ etc. |
| 21:03:23 | <[exa]> | bailsman: also it's useful to enable -fspecialise-aggressively -fexpose-all-unfoldings every now and then to just see if you're not missing some performance because of the missed inlines (spoiler: executables produced by these options are y u g e) |
| 21:03:37 | <bailsman> | I don't know if I want to avoid that per se. I don't *need* to avoid it. I only have one implementation now. I'm just having some ... behavior tendencies? :P that I'm not sure if they're good defaults or not |
| 21:03:51 | <tomsmeding> | are you sure this is a performance bottleneck? |
| 21:04:20 | <bailsman> | Mmmm no, I'm mainly looking for "good defaults" and some intuition for what's going to happen to the performance. |
| 21:04:23 | <tomsmeding> | the "indirect function call" we're talking about is just like a virtual method call in C++ or Java |
| 21:04:27 | <bailsman> | but I have seen -O1 be 10x slower than -O2 |
| 21:04:52 | <tomsmeding> | (and indeed, if you want to avoid virtual method calls completely in C++, you're going to have to couple stuff) |
| 21:04:53 | <bailsman> | so I'm vaguely worried about it not having enough type information to specialise things |
| 21:05:05 | <tomsmeding> | try [exa]'s tips |
| 21:06:45 | <tomsmeding> | the usual adage "make it work first, then profile, then optimise" still applies :p |
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| 21:07:31 | <tomsmeding> | abstraction via type classes is common in haskell, and has an overhead if the compiler cannot inline or specialise everything, but that overhead only becomes significant if you, as I said, have many short calls to methods from the typeclass |
| 21:07:49 | <tomsmeding> | `Monad` is a typical example that may be significant, depending on your code |
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| 21:10:59 | <tomsmeding> | (because (>>=) is generally very cheap, and it often occurs a lot, so the overhead of having a function call for (>>=) at all is relatively significant) |
| 21:12:25 | <Rembane> | IIRC the biggest downside of putting everything in type classes is that the error messages become really exotic after a while. |
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| 21:56:54 | <hellwolf> | e.g.? |
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| 22:04:52 | <Rembane> | > foldr (+) 0 1 -- This is a fun one, and for some reason I think it's hard to reproduce it by creating ones own type classes. |
| 22:04:53 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:04:53 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Foldable t0) |
| 22:04:53 | <lambdabot> | from the context: (Foldable t, Num b, Num (t b)) |
| 22:05:22 | <Rembane> | Source: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/examples-of-haskell-type-errors/10468/4 |
| 22:05:39 | <tomsmeding> | cute one |
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| 22:19:27 | <Rembane> | And such a red herring! :D |
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| 22:22:04 | <tomsmeding> | oh but red herrings of this kind are easy to find |
| 22:22:07 | <tomsmeding> | > maximum 2 3 |
| 22:22:08 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:22:08 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Foldable t0) |
| 22:22:08 | <lambdabot> | from the context: (Foldable t, Ord (t2 -> t3), Num t2, |
| 22:22:36 | <tomsmeding> | oh perhaps this one is even worse >:) |
| 22:24:04 | <Rembane> | I love how confusing it is. :D |
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| 23:22:25 | <hellwolf> | How would you make a more appropriate error message, instead? |
| 23:23:34 | <hellwolf> | "This is a method of Foldable, but no instances was found for your inputs. Perhaps, you are using a wrong function?" |
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| 23:24:52 | <hellwolf> | I asked chatgpt, it says this: |
| 23:24:57 | <hellwolf> | "The error is saying that the function `maximum` used in your Haskell code cannot determine a specific structure (`Foldable` type) for the numbers you provided. Make sure you're using `maximum` correctly with a list like `maximum [2,3]`." |
| 23:25:19 | <hellwolf> | Perhaps, we should have a plugin for GHC, that translate message through chatgpt for people that needs assistant? |
| 23:25:50 | <hellwolf> | instead of trying to do a lot of work on fixing error messages..., which seems never adequate |
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