Logs on 2024-11-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:58:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> With proper warnings, given that it might allucinate, I think this is actually a good idea |
| 01:59:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Having good error messages and good performance are both good properties that are almost always at conflict |
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| 02:02:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> It seems like LLMs can collect some of that metadata given the error message and a bit of code. Since this is separate from compilation itself, I'd say that training an LLM for this and not enabling this functionality on the compiler itself could result in faster compile times for everyone |
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| 02:05:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Of course, that model needs to be launched on every error message and enough context must be given, but specialised models should be small enough to not be a huge pain. Most of the time you are working on a single type error at once too (also this system would be opt-out on each compilation) |
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| 05:39:48 | <ski> | @where existential-antipattern |
| 05:39:48 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell Antipattern: Existential Typeclass" by Luke Palmer at <https://web.archive.org/web/20220121105027/https://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/> |
| 05:39:55 | <ski> | bailsman ^ |
| 05:40:03 | <ski> | @where incremental-parameter-antipattern |
| 05:40:03 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell anti-pattern: incremental ad-hoc parameter abstraction" by Brent Yorgey at <http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2010/04/03/haskell-anti-pattern-incremental-ad-hoc-parameter-abstraction/> |
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| 08:03:46 | <dminuoso> | 23:25:19 hellwolf │ Perhaps, we should have a plugin for GHC, that translate message through chatgpt for people that needs assistant? |
| 08:03:48 | <dminuoso> | No we should not. |
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| 08:06:49 | <tomsmeding> | https://errors.haskell.org/ |
| 08:06:51 | <dminuoso> | The current system is pretty great: Instead of just giving you an error message, we are giving you error cxodes. |
| 08:07:28 | <dminuoso> | Yup. We already have a system to help you decipher errors, but instead of random generative AI confabulations filled with inaccuracies and just garbage, it gives you exact answers. |
| 08:08:01 | <dminuoso> | In a way I am glad generative AI is becoming so popular, it is guaranteed job security for those who keep building up experience in writing code. |
| 08:08:23 | <tomsmeding> | at employers that care about the latter |
| 08:09:08 | <tomsmeding> | (disclaimer, I don't know how much of a problem that really is in practice) |
| 08:10:40 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: I have some insights in how education is dealing with it at the school where my girlfriend teaches at. There is an alarming number of students that use it for homework assignments, to answer questions during classes and during exams. As a result the students effectively void the primary purpose of all three: Working with material to build up competency. |
| 08:11:50 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: is that secondary school or university? |
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| 08:12:43 | <dminuoso> | What is secondary school to you? |
| 08:12:53 | <tomsmeding> | :') |
| 08:12:53 | <dminuoso> | Ah, no. |
| 08:13:07 | <tomsmeding> | age 12 to 18, if I'm to take the dutch definnition |
| 08:13:18 | <dminuoso> | Here it is called Gymnasium which is the school that grants you university access. |
| 08:13:37 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Based on my research secondary education seems to be about an alternate path that does not lead to university *shrugs* |
| 08:13:39 | <dminuoso> | at any rate |
| 08:13:55 | <dminuoso> | She prepares students for university |
| 08:14:04 | <tomsmeding> | I find it endlessly fascinating how every country has their own way of designing an education system, and somehow it all works |
| 08:14:49 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: wikipedia claims that Germany has three streams of secondary education: Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium |
| 08:14:51 | <dminuoso> | The school system here is federated, so its state responsibility even. |
| 08:15:44 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Heck, language about cultures across cultures is a problematic thing. |
| 08:15:53 | <dminuoso> | Take for instance, how do you call the meal at noon? |
| 08:16:28 | <tomsmeding> | lunch, or luncheon if you're being funny |
| 08:17:03 | <tomsmeding> | (the former happens to also be the dutch word) |
| 08:17:08 | <tomsmeding> | (I'm not sure which way the loan went) |
| 08:17:10 | <dminuoso> | So this is an interesting bit. In the USA the main course is eaten in the evening called dinner. However, plenty of Americans do not associate the term `dinner` with being in the evening, but with the fact that its the main course of the day. |
| 08:17:41 | <dminuoso> | So in Germany we have the main coure at noon, and they might call that one dinner. |
| 08:18:03 | <dminuoso> | A typical problem in translation. |
| 08:18:13 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
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| 08:18:48 | <dminuoso> | So what we call Abendbrot they might call supper, which is also funny given there is no soup involved. |
| 08:19:05 | <dminuoso> | Based on my research none of this is however well agreed on. |
| 08:19:29 | <dminuoso> | So finding unifying terms about education is a hopeless excercise |
| 08:19:41 | <tomsmeding> | right :p |
| 08:20:04 | <tomsmeding> | (it turns out the 'lunch' loan goes English -> Dutch) |
| 08:20:33 | <dminuoso> | Anyway. Students see generative AI as making school easier, but in reality they are just not following the primary goals of tasks. That is, teachers dont care about your answers, and generally they dont care whether your answer is right or wrong. |
| 08:20:36 | <tomsmeding> | at least for meals we have the workaround of doing stuff like "midday meal" |
| 08:20:54 | <tomsmeding> | they don't? I do. |
| 08:20:57 | <dminuoso> | They just want you to study material, they want you to build up competency dealing with texts, applying principles and practicing techniques. |
| 08:21:03 | <tomsmeding> | But perhaps I haven't been sufficiently jaded yet (probably) |
| 08:21:11 | <tomsmeding> | oh in that sense |
| 08:21:49 | <tomsmeding> | sure, the end goal is not to have students perform on exams |
| 08:22:25 | <tomsmeding> | but with "gaming the system" being an accepted mode of operation among a significant fraction of the population, exams are what we have |
| 08:22:27 | <dminuoso> | Of course, from a financial point of view it may very well be the goal - which creates incentives for students to actually use generative AI everywhere. |
| 08:23:08 | <dminuoso> | Schools and universities generally get paid per graduated student, per certification earned, per PhD greanted.. |
| 08:24:24 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: https://t.co/HGfGrwo3ir |
| 08:24:31 | <tomsmeding> | there is an incentive for schools to keep the level up at least somewhat, though: if you just hand out certificates willy-nilly, then your reputation will sink, and fewer students will attend your school, so you get fewer graduates too |
| 08:24:40 | <dminuoso> | This is a cherry. |
| 08:25:34 | <dminuoso> | People involved with scam currency, tasking generative AI to write code for their financial investment, using that code without audit, with the AI not only sending private keys, but sending them to a scammer API. |
| 08:25:56 | <tomsmeding> | right, somehow it's unsurprising that this involves cryptocurrency |
| 08:26:09 | <dminuoso> | :-) |
| 08:26:51 | <tomsmeding> | "the trust in @OpenAI lost me" |
| 08:27:38 | <tomsmeding> | pretty good scamming mode of operation! Get yourself recommended by an AI service, then watch the credits roll in |
| 08:28:27 | <tomsmeding> | automatic pre-selection of people who are less likely to double-check what they're doing. :) |
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| 08:29:25 | <tomsmeding> | is this the new form of SEO? "AIO"? |
| 08:29:47 | <dminuoso> | Do you know of the great filter theory as a resolution to the fermi paradox? |
| 08:30:04 | <tomsmeding> | I know neither that theory _nor_ the fermi paradox |
| 08:30:34 | tomsmeding | reads wikipedia |
| 08:30:34 | <dminuoso> | Oh, so the fermi paradox is that with the sheer number of stars and planets in our galaxy, why haven't we see any indication of extra terrestial life. |
| 08:32:04 | <tomsmeding> | what's the relation to cryptocurrency scamming? :P |
| 08:32:09 | <dminuoso> | And the great filter hypothesizes that evolution has many difficult requirements that are hard to fulfill, and each barrier sort of "filters out" viable candidatres. |
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| 08:33:38 | <dminuoso> | Assuming we have a suitable star and planet, will it produce reproduction, will that form into cells, will cells become multi-cellular, will that develop sexual reproduction, will those life forms develop fine motor skills, etc. etc. |
| 08:34:28 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes I wonder whether one of the great filters is avoiding technology that will lead to self destruction. |
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| 08:34:53 | <tomsmeding> | makes me think of Dune |
| 08:35:05 | <tomsmeding> | (but perhaps that's because I recently re-read the series) |
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| 08:35:20 | <dminuoso> | Have not read and not watched, yet. |
| 08:35:27 | <tomsmeding> | I can recommend the books, at least |
| 08:35:46 | <dminuoso> | Ill have ChatGPT give me a summary. >:) |
| 08:36:10 | <tomsmeding> | the genre changes quite a bit from book 1 to books 2&3, and then from that again a bit to books 4-8 |
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| 08:37:21 | <tomsmeding> | the relevant bit (which is not a spoiler) is that an important part of (fictional) historical background in the story is the Butlerian Jihad: mankind had created an intelligent machine that was taking over humanity, and humanity revolted |
| 08:37:40 | <tomsmeding> | and agreed to never again "make a machine in the image of the human mind", or some similar phrase |
| 08:38:28 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not going to say more than that because commenting more on this is a bit of a spoiler for the closing novel :p |
| 08:39:56 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: And then his son ruined that by completely misunderstanding the meaning and turning it into some vague matrixy machine uprising >.> |
| 08:40:35 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: I'm not sure what to think of the last two books (by {his ,Ander}son) |
| 08:40:38 | <merijn> | Whereas obviously "Butlerian Jihad == 70s IBM slide" :p |
| 08:40:59 | <tomsmeding> | I started on them thinking "whatever, I got this far, let's see" |
| 08:41:26 | <tomsmeding> | (my previous read was just books 1-3; this time I read till the end) |
| 08:41:44 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: (this slide specifically: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1*zutKwuoRph8ucPWNR7rWbw.jpeg) |
| 08:42:00 | <tomsmeding> | heh |
| 08:42:25 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I just don't understand why his own son so completely whiffed his (imo fairly obvious) intentions |
| 08:42:34 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Hold on, that reasoning is completely flawed. If something cannot be held accountable, that seems just *perfect* for management decisions. |
| 08:43:05 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Well, you go and Google "toeslagenaffaire" in the Netherlands and discover why that's completely fucking wrong :) |
| 08:43:06 | <tomsmeding> | the accountability just shifts to the implementers of the system |
| 08:43:12 | <tomsmeding> | also ^ |
| 08:43:20 | <merijn> | dminuoso: It's "just following orders" for bureaucracy |
| 08:43:54 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Something that has the power to ruin people's lives should ALWAYS have a mechanism for holding decision makers accountable |
| 08:44:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> seems we're in agreement that we must destroy AI at all costs |
| 08:44:41 | <merijn> | No one ever seems to stop and wonder "why did Frank Herbert write a sci-fi novel with a feudal government?" |
| 08:44:42 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: do we have info on how much of "Dune 7" is from the mind of Herbert Jr., and how much is from Herbert Sr.'s notes? |
| 08:45:20 | <merijn> | imo the feudal government and Butlerian Jihad are directly linked. It's the polar opposite of abdicating personal responsibility |
| 08:48:00 | <dminuoso> | merijn: You folks are beginners. Here we had the biggest tax fraud (twisting the legal system such that get higher tax returns than you owed..) in the billions, and the central figures got away by being forgetful "I do not remember anything". |
| 08:48:31 | <tomsmeding> | '"I do not remember anything"' is suspiciously similar to what our prime minister said |
| 08:48:32 | <dminuoso> | Look up CumEx! :-) |
| 08:48:50 | <tomsmeding> | "I have no active memory of that" was the catchphrase |
| 08:49:14 | <dminuoso> | (While several european countries were involved, we really showed how to do it) |
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| 08:51:00 | <mauke> | wait, wasn't that Olaf Scholz? |
| 08:51:12 | <dminuoso> | I cannot recall. |
| 08:51:19 | <mauke> | haha |
| 08:53:04 | <monochrom> | Ugh haha what happened, Dune 7 and tax evasion? |
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| 08:54:35 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: generative AI -> schools -> cryptocurrency scams -> a resolution to the Fermi paradox (perhaps most life avoids self-destruction tech) -> Dune -> accountability of government -> tax evasion |
| 08:54:39 | <tomsmeding> | does it make more sense now? :) |
| 08:55:17 | <mauke> | {-# LANGUAGE IncoherentRambling #-} |
| 08:55:44 | <tomsmeding> | semantics: passes your code through ChatGPT before compiling |
| 08:56:31 | <mauke> | I'm dealing with the effects of yesterday's Corvid vaccination |
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| 08:56:51 | <tomsmeding> | bird flu? |
| 08:57:20 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Oh that's simply a simplifier pass, isn't it? |
| 08:57:20 | <mauke> | caw |
| 08:57:41 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: if it is then why aren't we using it? |
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| 08:58:07 | <dminuoso> | Personally I would have IncoherentRambling rather have generative AI generate diagnostics. |
| 08:58:15 | <dminuoso> | Such that GHC rambles incoherently. |
| 08:59:20 | <dminuoso> | By default we only have {-# LANGUAGE RambleIncomprehensible #-} which is a built-in feature. |
| 08:59:33 | <dminuoso> | IncomprehensibleRambling |
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| 09:02:27 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I mean, did that result in double digit (triple digit?) parents losing custody of their children and ripping families apart? |
| 09:03:01 | <merijn> | Althought that's more for -offtopic :p |
| 09:03:25 | <tomsmeding> | (this whole discussion has been -offtopic) |
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| 09:52:35 | <kqr> | If I have an infinite list of IO actions, I imagined I would be able to sequenceA xs >>= \and_this_would_be_a_lazy_list but that seems to not be the case. What am I missing? |
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| 09:53:34 | <dminuoso> | % sequenceA (repeat (putChar 'a'))3 |
| 09:53:34 | <yahb2> | Oops, something went wrong |
| 09:53:36 | <dminuoso> | % sequenceA (repeat (putChar 'a'))3 |
| 09:53:36 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:5:1: error: [GHC-83865] ; • Couldn't match expected type: t0 -> t ; with actual type: IO [()] ; • The function ‘sequenceA’ is applied to two visible argument... |
| 09:53:42 | <dminuoso> | Err.. |
| 09:53:44 | <dminuoso> | % sequenceA (repeat (putChar 'a')) |
| 09:53:44 | <yahb2> | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... |
| 09:53:46 | <int-e> | kqr: IO effectd are ordered |
| 09:53:52 | <int-e> | *effects |
| 09:53:56 | <dminuoso> | kqr: seems to work fine? |
| 09:54:09 | <int-e> | all effects from the sequenceA will happen before the next action gets to run |
| 09:54:12 | <dminuoso> | Oh you want that lazy list. |
| 09:54:29 | <dminuoso> | kqr: You want to look at streaming solutions. |
| 09:54:48 | <tomsmeding> | kqr: imagine if one of the actions in `xs` did stuff to a file, then surely you'd want that to be done once you get your list of results |
| 09:54:53 | <int-e> | There's unsafeInterleaveIO if you're feeling adventerous. |
| 09:54:55 | <tomsmeding> | (this is why IO is ordered) |
| 09:55:24 | <int-e> | (used for lazy IO, which is known for being convenient on the one hand and full of pitfalls on the other hand) |
| 09:55:49 | <dminuoso> | If you think you want lazy IO, you really want something like conduit or some other streaming library. :-) |
| 09:55:55 | <dminuoso> | You just dont know it yet. |
| 09:56:40 | <int-e> | <3 `interact foo` |
| 09:57:36 | <kqr> | I see. I don't /really/ want lazy IO. This is not for production code but an article I'm thinking of writing to showcase `for` from traversable. It would have been neat to be able to show it working on an infinite stream. It might still be possible to do that by switching to a less... impactful monad, but that might also be more effort than it's worth for a quick demo. |
| 09:57:52 | <dminuoso> | Well, it does work on infinite streams.. |
| 09:58:23 | <kqr> | Yeah, but I was using IO to generate the infinite stream, and on IO it does not work! |
| 09:58:27 | <dminuoso> | For demonstration you could spool up two threads, and that infinite `for_` pushes into a TQueue? |
| 09:58:36 | <dminuoso> | Of course it does work. |
| 09:58:44 | <dminuoso> | Just not in a single thread with sequenceA. |
| 09:58:46 | <kqr> | Well, it works but not the sequenceA that I used to sequence the IO into a list with. |
| 09:59:16 | <dibblego> | yeah it works |
| 09:59:18 | <dminuoso> | Well, even that sequenceA does work on infinite streams.. |
| 09:59:20 | <int-e> | it's working as intended |
| 09:59:39 | <dminuoso> | It's just that it does not do lazy IO. |
| 09:59:59 | <dminuoso> | So if you want to show incremental results, add stm to the mix. |
| 09:59:59 | <int-e> | It can't be magically lazy in a monad that whose effects are strict by design. |
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| 10:00:53 | <kqr> | I'm not faulting IO or sequenceA or for here, to be clear! I'm just looking for an easy artificial example that is not too artificial or complicated. I want it to be somewhat readable even to someone who does not otherwise use Haskell. |
| 10:01:06 | <dminuoso> | Well, you want sequenceA to show something its not. |
| 10:01:14 | <dminuoso> | So it's abit unclear what to recommend. |
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| 10:02:02 | <int-e> | forM_ [1..] print will work |
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| 10:02:41 | <dminuoso> | % for_ [1..] print |
| 10:02:41 | <yahb2> | Oops, something went wrong |
| 10:02:46 | <dminuoso> | Yeah something did. |
| 10:02:48 | <dminuoso> | % for_ [1..] print |
| 10:02:48 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:5:1: error: [GHC-88464] ; Variable not in scope: for_ :: [a0] -> (a1 -> IO ()) -> t |
| 10:02:54 | <dminuoso> | % import Data.Foldable |
| 10:02:54 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 10:02:56 | <dminuoso> | % for_ [1..] print |
| 10:02:56 | <yahb2> | 1 ; 2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5 ; 6 ; 7 ; 8 ; 9 ; 10 ; 11 ; 12 ; 13 ; 14 ; 15 ; 16 ; 17 ; 18 ; 19 ; 20 ; 21 ; 22 ; 23 ; 24 ; 25 ; 26 ; 27 ; 28 ; 29 ; 30 ; 31 ; 32 ; 33 ; 34 ; 35 ; 36 ; 37 ; 38 ; 39 ; 40 ; 41 ; 4... |
| 10:03:48 | <hellwolf> | % :quit |
| 10:03:48 | <yahb2> | <bye> |
| 10:03:53 | <kqr> | Actually you gave me an idea! I was stuck thinking of using IO to generate the infinite stream, but I don't actually need that! randomRs does it without the IO. |
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| 10:05:13 | <int-e> | > runWriter (for_ [1..] (tell . (:[])) >> pure 42) |
| 10:05:14 | <lambdabot> | (42,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27... |
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| 10:07:54 | <int-e> | (Writer is lazy enough to do that kind of thing. That includes producing intermediate results lazily, even though I haven't used that in the example.) |
| 10:09:13 | <int-e> | The lazy state monad also gives you lazy intermediate results, but when using the state you incur a data dependency on all actions passed to `sequence`. It's subtle. |
| 10:09:38 | <int-e> | :t mfix |
| 10:09:39 | <lambdabot> | MonadFix m => (a -> m a) -> m a |
| 10:13:08 | <kqr> | int-e, That sounds like it could be relevant in this case. I was going to use a State expression to illustrate what can be done inside the "loop body" of for. But I'm not sure I understand what it means to incur a data dependency. |
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| 10:15:45 | <int-e> | > let loop = forever (pure ()) in (execState (loop >> put 23) 42, execState (loop >> modify (subtract 19)) 42) |
| 10:15:52 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 10:16:04 | <int-e> | > let loop = forever (pure ()) in (execState (loop >> put 23) 42) |
| 10:16:06 | <lambdabot> | 23 |
| 10:17:59 | <tomsmeding> | % let loop = putChar 'a' >> loop in loop |
| 10:17:59 | <yahb2> | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... |
| 10:18:01 | <tomsmeding> | % 1 + 1 |
| 10:18:01 | <yahb2> | Oops, something went wrong |
| 10:18:03 | <tomsmeding> | % 1 + 1 |
| 10:18:03 | <yahb2> | 2 |
| 10:18:15 | <tomsmeding> | okay yeah yahb2 breaks when you produce infinite IO :> |
| 10:18:29 | <tomsmeding> | (it can't find the next prompt, for obvious reasons) |
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| 11:28:23 | <kqr> | Okay but now I am very confused. In this first example, it gathers up all the 50 results first, and then prints them all at once: https://entropicthoughts.com/pastes/forill_nonlazy-57ed31.hs.html |
| 11:28:35 | <kqr> | In this second example, it prints each result lazily: https://entropicthoughts.com/pastes/forill_lazy-f65616.hs.html |
| 11:28:46 | <kqr> | The only difference are the last few lines of the factorise function! |
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| 11:37:17 | <int-e> | kqr: the difference is when the entries of the `cache` map are evaluated. The difference disappears if you use Data.Map.Strict |
| 11:39:12 | <int-e> | (well I' |
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| 11:40:00 | <int-e> | I'm not sure whether it completely disappears, but I can no longer see the incremental printing effect) |
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| 11:42:40 | <kqr> | Oh this seems really subtle. I'll have to think about it for a bit. |
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| 11:42:57 | <kqr> | What I don't get is why it can't even return the list spine without forcing all computations in the first case. |
| 11:44:31 | <int-e> | the comparison forces `factor` |
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| 11:48:20 | <int-e> | and the comparison determines the next IO action after the `maybe (compute_cached cache n) pure cached` one |
| 11:48:56 | <int-e> | Whereas in thge "lazy" version, the comparison is inside the returned value, not part of the chain of IO actions. |
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| 13:05:05 | <bailsman> | OK, great. My code is nice and polymorphic and looks beautiful to me. As you have warned, I'm having some difficulty interpreting the error messages I get now. Is there anything I can do about this? Or is this, you made your bed, now sleep in it. |
| 13:05:48 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: example of such an error message? |
| 13:05:49 | <hellwolf> | any example? |
| 13:06:10 | <dminuoso> | 10:18:29 tomsmeding │ (it can't find the next prompt, for obvious reasons) |
| 13:06:24 | <dminuoso> | Dunno about obvious reasons, but a timeout is... not exactly rocket science. |
| 13:07:20 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: I mean, what it does is it searches for the next prompt with a timeout, and if either the timeout fires, or the next prompt isn't found within the first N characters, it declares "oops" and restarts ghci |
| 13:08:17 | <tomsmeding> | actually if it goes over the length limit, it should terminate ghci then already, and never error |
| 13:08:41 | <int-e> | % putStrLn "ghci> " |
| 13:08:41 | <yahb2> | ghci> |
| 13:08:45 | <bailsman> | I mean the "couldn't match expected type foo with actual type bar" followed by 40 lines of code |
| 13:08:49 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: it generates a random prompt ;) |
| 13:09:02 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: good thinking |
| 13:09:10 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: The timeout could occur on the initial action... |
| 13:09:13 | <dminuoso> | Or should, even. |
| 13:09:16 | <geekosaur> | @v |
| 13:09:16 | <lambdabot> | "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" |
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| 13:09:48 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: we can't say anything about how to potentially fix that without details about the specific type error :p |
| 13:09:56 | <tomsmeding> | because "couldn't match type" is essentially "there was a type error" |
| 13:10:05 | <geekosaur> | bailsman, that is one of the prices of going polymorphic, yes |
| 13:10:06 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: I mean at some point the bot decides that the response is finished, when it prints `...` - arguably it should clean-up right then. |
| 13:10:16 | <tomsmeding> | it should! the code tries to |
| 13:10:19 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure why it doesn't work |
| 13:10:48 | <tomsmeding> | it terminates ghci then, and it should detect a terminated ghci later and spawn a new one |
| 13:11:05 | <bailsman> | I'm not using a language server currently - should I? I guess I want to debug this not by staring at the stack trace but by double checking my mental model of what the inferred type is of various bits and pieces of code. |
| 13:11:32 | <bailsman> | Is there a 'printf debugging' version of types? |
| 13:11:53 | <geekosaur> | drop `_` in place of a type? |
| 13:11:57 | <tomsmeding> | you can add `:: ()` on something; if it's indeed a unit, that will go through, and if it isn't, the type error will say what it was instead |
| 13:11:58 | <dminuoso> | bailsman: "should I" is difficult to answer. |
| 13:12:07 | <dminuoso> | I can see arguments in both directions. |
| 13:12:12 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: no type-level holes |
| 13:12:40 | <tomsmeding> | ... there are type-level holes? |
| 13:12:44 | <tomsmeding> | there are type-level holes! |
| 13:12:50 | <haskellbridge> | <matti palli> There are! |
| 13:12:57 | <tomsmeding> | bailsman: do `:: _` on an expression, the error will tell you what the type is |
| 13:13:09 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/partial_type_signatures.html |
| 13:13:11 | <dminuoso> | Did you just discover this, tomsmeding? |
| 13:13:16 | <dminuoso> | o_O |
| 13:13:30 | <tomsmeding> | I can get a type of an expression with one button press with HLS |
| 13:13:34 | <geekosaur> | and yes, this has been around for some time |
| 13:13:49 | <dminuoso> | I'm old school, I tossed out HLS a long time ago. |
| 13:13:54 | <dminuoso> | Since then I can develop on less than 32GiB again. |
| 13:13:59 | <tomsmeding> | I have even seen this before, because I use _ for partial type signatures in places and even explicitly go -XPartialTypeSignatures -Wno-partial-type-signatures |
| 13:14:02 | <dminuoso> | Of memory I mean. |
| 13:14:20 | <tomsmeding> | apparently my code is small enough :) |
| 13:14:31 | <dminuoso> | Well I use type-level tricks. |
| 13:14:33 | <dminuoso> | :-P |
| 13:14:45 | <tomsmeding> | my code is one gigantic GADT |
| 13:14:52 | <bailsman> | Thanks, that made it a lot easier. |
| 13:14:53 | <tomsmeding> | type-level everything |
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| 13:15:20 | <tomsmeding> | though I guess the type-level structures are not _large_. |
| 13:15:29 | <dminuoso> | But seriously, I forced myself for years to just do type inference in my head, which for the most part works. |
| 13:15:51 | <geekosaur> | likewise |
| 13:15:53 | <bailsman> | dminuoso: yeah but that's like saying to a beginner tennis player "just hit the ball in the right place" :P |
| 13:15:54 | <tomsmeding> | it does, but one gets lazy |
| 13:16:04 | <geekosaur> | I'd actually advise that for beginners just to learn how it all works |
| 13:16:10 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 13:16:16 | <dminuoso> | This sort of brings us back to the previous generative AI discussion. If you no longer practice this, you will not develop that skill. |
| 13:16:22 | <tomsmeding> | unrelated, why do I get a longer _profiling_ stack trace if I add more HasCallStack constraints |
| 13:17:06 | <dminuoso> | Don't HasCallStack constraints impose barriers for the simplifier? |
| 13:17:33 | <dminuoso> | After all, if you demand visibility of some bit it cant inline and optimize away no? |
| 13:17:39 | <tomsmeding> | hm, perhaps |
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| 13:28:40 | <Leary> | dminuoso: Just BTW, there's also static-ls if you do want a cheaper language server than hls. Though personally I've never bothered to try either---I guess I'm old school too. |
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| 17:13:11 | <bailsman> | Is my trying to `instance HasField "foo" r Foo => HasFoo r` a sign I've gone off the deep end somewhere? (This does not compile.) I was trying to reduce boilerplate by saying anything that has a field of type Foo named foo can automatically produce a Foo. I suppose I could just replace HasFoo with that, but I didn't want to rule out the possibility of producing a Foo some other way. |
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| 17:17:13 | <kuribas> | bailsman: Don't code for the future, code for now. |
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| 17:17:18 | <ski> | could you use a type class synonym `type HasFoo r = HasField "foo" r Foo' ? |
| 17:17:42 | <bailsman> | ski: right. But then you can no longer produce a Foo any other way |
| 17:17:49 | <ski> | mm, right |
| 17:18:13 | <kuribas> | bailsman: maybe not, but you could easily refactor it, no? |
| 17:18:14 | <ski> | but `instance ..r.. => HasFoo r' already overlaps with every other instance of `HasFoo', anyway |
| 17:18:34 | <bailsman> | Yes I think I've misunderstood how the type system works in some important way |
| 17:18:46 | <ski> | (the context on instances are not taking into account when selecting which instance to use) |
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| 17:20:14 | <bailsman> | Is there a way that I can write deriving HasFoo or something where it applies a strategy of noticing you've got a foo field? Presumably yes, but, more trouble than it's ever worth? |
| 17:20:18 | <ski> | (and you probably do not want to enable `OverlappingInstances' (or the `OVERLAPPING',`OVERLAPPABLE',`OVERLAPS' pragmas) or `IncoherentInstances', anyway) |
| 17:22:42 | <kuribas> | Ah, the joy of haskell type class programming... |
| 17:23:03 | <bailsman> | Is that not what you're supposed to do? |
| 17:23:09 | <bailsman> | I thought I learned something but maybe I haven't |
| 17:23:24 | <bailsman> | ski: I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by overlap. If you've already got a foo field, you wouldn't need to make an extra instance. And if you don't, there wouldn't be overlapping instances, right? |
| 17:23:40 | <ski> | if you write |
| 17:23:57 | <ski> | instance Frob a => Foo a where ... |
| 17:24:10 | <ski> | instance Barf a Bar => Foo a where ... |
| 17:24:19 | <ski> | then those two instances are overlapping : trouble |
| 17:24:32 | <ski> | because the heads `Foo a' are overlapping |
| 17:24:57 | <bailsman> | This seems to imply you can never make two objects that instance the same typeclass? |
| 17:24:58 | <kuribas> | bailsman: The left side of => is not a test, basically haskell always dispatches on the right side. The left side if just an extra constraint, it always has to match if the right side matches. |
| 17:25:01 | <ski> | it does not matter whether it might be that `Frob a' and `Barf a Bar' never happens at the same time (so are disjoint) |
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| 17:25:32 | <ski> | Haskell decides which instance to pick (and committs to that choice !), *before* considering the context to the left of `=>', in instance resolution |
| 17:26:36 | <bailsman> | It's perfectly valid to write "instance Eq a => Foo a" right? what's different? |
| 17:26:43 | <bailsman> | I'm close to getting it but I don't quite get it yet |
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| 17:27:01 | <ski> | writing that instance precludes writing any other instance whatsoever, for `Foo' |
| 17:27:27 | <ski> | (unless you go down the `OverlappingInstances' or `IncoherentInstances' route .. but this is generally regarded as being a mistake) |
| 17:28:14 | <bailsman> | The moment you write "forall a. instance Foo a" that's the instance you've got. Whatever constraints you put on a, don't matter. OK. I think what I wanted to do is more like automatic deriving then |
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| 17:38:12 | <hellwolf> | This comes up a lot. Sometimes, it could be avoided since there can be better way of achieving the goal. But sometimes, it seems necessary. I wonder if anyone has a better and more instructive take for this scenario... |
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| 17:40:55 | <JuanDaugherty> | dont use a static lang? |
| 17:41:33 | <bailsman> | I think it's something like duck typing what you're trying to do there |
| 17:41:38 | <JuanDaugherty> | (joke, sorta) |
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| 18:33:47 | <sprotte24> | Hi |
| 18:34:39 | <sprotte24> | I´m just reading the book: "LEARN YOU A HASKELL FOR GREAT GOOD!" |
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| 18:35:49 | <sprotte24> | There I read: NOTE If you ever get really stuck, the IRC channel #haskell on the freenode network is a |
| 18:35:50 | <sprotte24> | great place to ask questions. The people there tend to be nice, patient, and understanding. |
| 18:35:50 | <sprotte24> | They’re a great resource for Haskell newbies. |
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| 18:37:11 | <geekosaur> | (you can tell how old it is 🙂 ) |
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| 18:39:41 | <sprotte24> | Printed 2ß11 |
| 18:40:02 | <geekosaur> | yep |
| 18:40:11 | <geekosaur> | and the author promptl vanished |
| 18:40:26 | <geekosaur> | I think there's an attempt at an updated version somewhere |
| 18:40:30 | <geekosaur> | @where lyah |
| 18:40:30 | <lambdabot> | http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ or the slightly updated fork https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/ |
| 18:40:47 | <geekosaur> | not actually very updated, though |
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| 18:41:58 | <sprotte24> | I like the book |
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| 18:57:25 | <sprotte24> | Before I learned Haskell, I learned Scheme with DrRacket |
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| 20:06:48 | <[exa]> | sprotte24: I learned from LYAH too, people have reservations towards it for the lack of exercises and the fact it aged without update, but IMO it's still all pretty much ok |
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| 20:07:09 | <[exa]> | esp if you already know scheme then you can just redo your fav scheme exercises |
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| 20:34:20 | <bailsman> | I added microlens-th to my project - is there anything I can do about the compilation speed? Feels like it has dectupled. (Does anyone actually write lenses manually instead to compile faster?) |
| 20:38:55 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Yes, I think some people do. Capturing the ones generated by th, I’d think. |
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| 20:45:33 | <bailsman> | Hmm, google says there are now also such a things as generic-optics and OverloadedRecordDot |
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| 20:55:19 | <geekosaur> | there used to be tools to expand TH beforehand, which is especially useful for lenses as they tend to be write-once |
| 20:56:42 | <geekosaur> | mm, zeroth is ancient |
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| 21:55:09 | <ShannonB> | How does GHC determine type variable labels? |
| 21:55:12 | <ShannonB> | :t (.)$(.) |
| 21:55:12 | <lambdabot> | (a1 -> b -> c) -> a1 -> (a2 -> b) -> a2 -> c |
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| 21:55:24 | <ShannonB> | and not |
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| 21:55:34 | <ShannonB> | (a-> b -> c) -> a -> (d -> b) -> d -> c |
| 21:56:03 | <geekosaur> | it's up to whatever the typechecker decides to do, and that can change with every ghc release |
| 21:56:46 | <ShannonB> | so its mostly arbitrary whether it decided to use numbers and letter vs letters alone? |
| 21:57:11 | <geekosaur> | it's complicated by there being a vague attempt to use the tyvars from definitions of functions/operators, which is difficult when they overlap or are repeated so numbers get tacked on |
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