Logs on 2024-11-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 08:06:44 | <hellwolf> | sometimes it is more liberating to have less constraints on how things are. this type variable names seems one to me. relying on the internal workings of GHC seems a fragile thing to do. |
| 08:10:29 | <ski> | relying, how ? |
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| 08:14:23 | <bailsman> | I have found a setup that seems to work. Enable 'DuplicateRecordFields NoFieldSelectors OverloadedLabels OverloadedRecordDot'. Access with `record.somefield.someNestedfield` and modify with `record & #somefield . #someNestedField .~ newValue`. Compiles instantly. Is this a sensible thing to do? |
| 08:15:31 | <bailsman> | Requires the generics-lens package and `import Data.Function ((&))`, `import Data.Generics.Labels ()`, `import Data.Generics.Internal.Lens ((.~))` |
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| 08:36:31 | <jackdk> | That is broadly how I use generic-lens, though I use the main lens package for UNLIMITED OPTICAL POWER |
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| 08:49:12 | <[exa]> | hey guys, is there any good way to write package documentation with commands that get executed and results are rendered too, like with python notebooks etc? |
| 08:53:40 | <Leary> | [exa]: 'doctest' might suffice. |
| 08:54:09 | <[exa]> | uuuh that could work just right, thanks! |
| 08:56:24 | <[exa]> | so technically it doesn't render the examples but it verifies that the output there is indeed what the code would produce, right? |
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| 08:57:52 | <Leary> | Yeah. |
| 08:58:22 | <[exa]> | ok that's moreless perfect |
| 08:58:30 | <[exa]> | ah it's got property tests too |
| 08:58:34 | <[exa]> | it's perfect |
| 08:58:40 | [exa] | happy |
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| 09:09:59 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: and HLS can execute doctest lines with a code action, iirc |
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| 09:16:22 | <Hecate> | (when it works) |
| 09:16:25 | [exa] | has no HLS |
| 09:16:32 | [exa] | is scared of HLS |
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| 09:19:13 | <Rembane> | [exa]: If you need something more powerful later there's a Haskell kernel for jupyter, and there's also literate programming. |
| 09:19:29 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: HLS is indeed quite scary |
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| 09:24:46 | <[exa]> | yes, on so many levels |
| 09:25:18 | <[exa]> | Rembane: yeah I literally didn't want to drag Jupyter in, that's getting quite hairy. So happy that there's a lightweight option. |
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| 09:26:32 | <vpan> | would you mind elaborating what's so scary about HLS for the lurking beginners here? I don't feel scared yet, but maybe I should. :) |
| 09:27:47 | <Rembane> | [exa]: That sounds amazing! |
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| 09:40:11 | <[exa]> | vpan: it's running a compiler and ghci and half of package universe in the background and doing something with the text I'd be editing |
| 09:41:00 | <[exa]> | vpan: and the outcome is that I get annoyed by errors in the code and indirectly pressed to fixing them before I realize I just wanted to delete the thing and start over in a completely different way. :D |
| 09:41:17 | <[exa]> | vpan: but I'm biased. I'm a complete hater of all IDEs. :D |
| 09:46:09 | <JuanDaugherty> | fools rush in |
| 09:47:07 | <vpan> | [exa]: ok, so what you're saying is that you don't want to be distracted by squiggly lines in the stage of conceptual development. I like both completion and instant feedback on errors so that I can fix them right now and don't have to get back to fixing trivial errors afterwards. But maybe that will change as I get to know the Haskell way. :) |
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| 10:12:54 | <[exa]> | vpan: yeah I guess esp. the completion helps a lot for learning |
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| 10:13:36 | <[exa]> | (counteracted by the observation that if I need autocomplete to do the coding, my identifiers suck.) |
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| 10:44:29 | <tomsmeding> | vpan: HLS works fine and is generally not scary |
| 10:44:58 | <tomsmeding> | it's not _perfect_: it sometimes gets confused, especially if you're working on multiple packages at the same time, switching back and forth between them |
| 10:45:12 | <tomsmeding> | but imperfect /= scary |
| 10:45:36 | <tomsmeding> | if you work on very large code bases it also eats all your RAM |
| 10:46:17 | <tomsmeding> | if you're scared of software that won't run on a raspberry pi, then you should be scared of HLS :) |
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| 11:17:22 | <vpan> | tomsmeding: right, RAM usage is the one thing I don't like about HLS. Right now it's hogging 1.3 GB on a trivial application. I don't know if no one cares, given laptops have tens of GBs of RAM these days, or is it actually very hard to rein in the memory use. |
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| 11:25:48 | <hellwolf> | Having a computer with 32GB or even 64GB memory is a good investment, considering how much we invest in making our work environment better sometimes.. |
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| 11:34:50 | <vpan> | my previous laptop that I retired last year had 6 GB of RAM, so it was an actual problem. It's no longer a pressing problem on the current laptop, but I still hate anything that feels like a waste. It may well be that I'm hugely underestimating what HLS has to do memory-wise, but intuitively a reasonable memory usage would be several times lower than the actual HLS memory usage. |
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| 11:39:29 | <Leary> | vpan: N.B. static-ls |
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| 11:42:37 | <tomsmeding> | vpan: HLS runs GHC as a library internally, and GHC is not known for frugality with memory |
| 11:42:45 | <tomsmeding> | that's where most of the memory use comes from |
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| 14:55:20 | <sshine> | I recently got a ThinkStation desktop computer with 8 GB RAM. I haven't had less than 16 GB RAM in a work computer for a very long time, and I've regularly run out of memory with just compiling + firefox. |
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| 16:29:49 | <geekosaur> | fwiw I used to have an old 4GB laptop, I ran with 12GB swap to make things work (slooowly) |
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| 16:44:12 | <hellwolf> | I think I am bitten by unsafeCoerce. I used too liberally. I though unsafeCoerce between types who has type tag of different kinds and doesn't have any runtime data wouldn't bite... But I suspect it is. |
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| 16:48:23 | <hellwolf> | (need to understand more what can be unsafeCoerced...) |
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| 16:57:23 | <geekosaur> | same payload types with same strictness (trivially satisfied if nullary) and you don't exceed the number of constructors in the target |
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| 17:00:30 | <hellwolf> | Say, I have a type `T (eff : k) (a :: Type) (b :: Type)` where eff only exists in type level for type-level stufff. Can I coerce between T of (eff0: k1) (eff1: k2) ? |
| 17:00:36 | <hellwolf> | *unsafeCoerce |
| 17:00:53 | <hellwolf> | also, ofc, of the same a b |
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| 17:03:25 | <geekosaur> | looks safe to me, assuming you made some typoes (if you didn't then you need to think about it more) |
| 17:05:27 | <hellwolf> | worrying ... let me rollback to a different version to see if I can restore to a working version before explore this assumption more. |
| 17:11:39 | <hellwolf> | rolling back didn't help, so it was a red herring... now I need to figure out what caused it. |
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| 17:47:46 | <hellwolf> | red herring, my error... need to think of a way to protect this stupid programming it from type-level. it is a very un-haskell thing to have such run-time error. |
| 17:49:57 | <hellwolf> | but I guess this case is not possible to prevent, it's a deadloop; so, a halting problem |
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| 18:17:24 | <hellwolf> | I usually like to write function signatures. My hlint warns about missing signature by default. But when it comes to name some small function aliases which simply composes other 2 or more functions together, it becomes tedious to write all their constraints. And I usually ignore that hlint warning by add an {-# ANN ... #-} for that function. Thoughts? |
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| 18:29:56 | <yushyin> | it is common that at least the top-level definitions all have type signatures. If you have a working HLS, you may also have it generate the type signatures |
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| 19:40:20 | <hellwolf> | "Record constructors in GADTs must use an ordinary, non-linear arrow." one more exotic error for the day :) |
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| 20:01:26 | <tomsmeding> | hellwolf: I see you're combining interesting language extensions today :p |
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| 20:58:01 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> i am having a blast |
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| 21:39:46 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> hellwolf: in regards to the function signatures, same, except that LSP insists on showing a codelens and i do not know how to disable it in Emacs :( so i tend to include them just to shut the thing up |
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| 21:43:17 | <mauke> | bullied by my dev tools |
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| 21:43:58 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Still better than vscode |
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| 21:57:54 | <hellwolf> | :D yea, I have a tough relationsip with the code lens |
| 21:58:16 | <hellwolf> | And the fact it is bound to S-l still blows my mind, since on most WM that's locking your screen... |
| 21:59:01 | <hellwolf> | s-l T l <-- toggle code lens |
| 21:59:14 | <hellwolf> | I changed mine to s-c-l |
| 21:59:59 | <hellwolf> | but often I still don't like how code lens looks. My wish list for it: occupy less lines; unclickable. |
| 22:00:35 | <hellwolf> | anyways... I have a cabal question: if I list some internal modules in other-modules, there is no way I can access in another package, right? |
| 22:00:49 | <hellwolf> | (for example, in test of the same package) |
| 22:01:24 | <geekosaur> | I think you can but you must use PackageImports |
| 22:01:57 | <geekosaur> | unless I misunderstand your question |
| 22:02:03 | <geekosaur> | oh, right. no, if they're in other-modules, they can't be accessed |
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| 22:02:59 | <Leary> | hellwolf: Put your internals in a private sublibrary. |
| 22:03:47 | <hellwolf> | :/ okay, but then I need to use a separate folders for it? |
| 22:03:56 | <hellwolf> | I just tried PackageImports, no luck. |
| 22:04:24 | <Leary> | Yes. |
| 22:04:42 | <geekosaur> | right, I realized I was answering the wrong question |
| 22:04:54 | <hellwolf> | yikes. perhaps I should just not use other-modules |
| 22:05:09 | <hellwolf> | I wonder if LSP supports sublibrary nowadays. |
| 22:05:16 | <Leary> | (in principle you shouldn't need separate source directories, but GHC gets weird if you don't) |
| 22:06:06 | <geekosaur> | HLS does if your cabal is recent enough |
| 22:06:14 | <geekosaur> | (3.12.1.0) |
| 22:06:25 | <hellwolf> | cabal-install version 3.12.1.0 |
| 22:06:25 | <hellwolf> | compiled using version 3.12.1.0 of the Cabal library |
| 22:06:46 | <hellwolf> | I am the exemplar of using everything latest. |
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| 22:07:03 | <hellwolf> | : not true, I don't use ghc 9.12 |
| 22:07:11 | <hellwolf> | yet |
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| 22:07:22 | <c_wraith> | well, it's not even in Release Candidate yet... |
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| 22:10:42 | <hellwolf> | I cave in. I just export it but with another layer of namespace to avoid having conflict with other package |
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| 22:15:21 | <geekosaur> | re other-modules: have you considered that maybe you're designing your APIs wrong if the idea of hiding parts of it is problematic to you? |
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| 22:19:41 | <hellwolf> | in this case, it is some small utility functions/type families that I didn't want to duplicate everywhere |
| 22:20:26 | <hellwolf> | but if it is from some well-known package, or some corner of base library, I could also use those instead. |
| 22:21:45 | <hellwolf> | e.g. Data.Type.Bool is one such dark corner. |
| 22:22:23 | <hellwolf> | but I don't have a `type family TypeEq a b :: Bool` there... |
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| 22:22:42 | <geekosaur> | sounds like a reason for using a private sublibrary like Leary said, then |
| 22:23:14 | <hellwolf> | I shoudl try. private sublibrary will not be exposed to other packages of the same cabal project, right? |
| 22:26:21 | <Leary> | hellwolf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.20.0.1/docs/Data-Type-Equality.html#g:4 |
| 22:26:43 | <hellwolf> | awesome :) |
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| 22:26:58 | <hellwolf> | I can you find, without knowing or asking here. Hoogle cannot search type families... |
| 22:27:03 | <hellwolf> | *how |
| 22:27:41 | <Leary> | Good question. In this case I just figured it might be in `Data.Type.Equality`. |
| 22:28:26 | <geekosaur> | they're not auto-exposed but you can depend on them |
| 22:29:31 | <hellwolf> | and chatgpt thinks there is none in base library. |
| 22:29:47 | <hellwolf> | I guess asking in IRC is the only empirically valid option left. |
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| 22:31:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> That's why you should always have base sources on hand to grep through |
| 22:33:25 | <hellwolf> | I guess I will have quite a battle to convince people to use Haskell :) I labeled it "fun", but I see scary error messages and relatively lack of support on the internet or from "LLM AI" ... |
| 22:36:56 | <hellwolf> | actually, in hoogle, type family appears |
| 22:37:28 | <hellwolf> | but not sure how to search. "(a :: k) == (b :: k)" didn't work |
| 22:37:43 | <hellwolf> | searching (==) worked, but I had to know it was called (==) in the first place. |
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| 22:38:32 | <jackdk> | Yeah it's a big mental shift to recognise that error messages are useful and not just "program wrong. think harder human". And then you have to learn to see through the spam to the useful core. Someone posted the error from `maximum 2 3` the other day; that was "glorious" |
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| 22:44:55 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 22:45:45 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> any compiler backends written in haskell that are nice to read or well documented? |
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| 22:47:30 | <hellwolf> | homework? |
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| 22:49:55 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> no just want to make my own |
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| 22:51:36 | <hellwolf> | I think people will say GHC itself. |
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| 22:56:24 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm will take a look |
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| 22:58:36 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty! |
| 22:59:22 | <hellwolf> | just curious, what kind of compiler you are writing? Fwiw, I think there is a lot of experts here. |
| 23:00:06 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> i'm trying to find the easiest target to reach javascript from lean4 |
| 23:00:22 | <haskellbridge> | <thirdofmay18081814goya> am thinking one of either haskell, agda or idris |
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| 23:20:32 | <hellwolf> | ?pastebin |
| 23:20:32 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 23:20:41 | <hellwolf> | @pastebin |
| 23:20:41 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 23:23:06 | <hellwolf> | How do you make GHC shortern the error message of this scary monster? https://pastebin.com/RbpELwKX |
| 23:23:17 | <hellwolf> | "ghc-internal-9.1001.0:GHC.Internal.TypeNats.+" |
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| 23:53:45 | <geekosaur> | depend on the package explicitly and import the module (qualified) |
| 23:54:32 | <geekosaur> | also I think you were looking for |
| 23:54:35 | <geekosaur> | ?where paste |
| 23:54:35 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
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