Logs on 2024-12-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 09:28:23 | <ncf> | i don't think i like that terminology |
| 09:28:38 | <ncf> | "mutually right adjoint" sounds like an ambidextrous adjunction to me |
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| 16:02:17 | <hellwolf> | k r (f a) ≅ f (k r a) <-- does this look like anything known? |
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| 16:03:09 | <hellwolf> | k r (m a) ≅ m (k r a). perhaps "m" is more idiomatic here. |
| 16:06:06 | <geekosaur> | not per se, although it's close to sequence/sequenceA |
| 16:06:56 | <hellwolf> | > :t sequence |
| 16:06:58 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 16:07:08 | <hellwolf> | > t sequence |
| 16:07:10 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:07:10 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘(t0 (m0 a0) -> m0 (t0 a0)) -> t’ |
| 16:07:10 | <lambdabot> | with actual type ‘Expr’ |
| 16:07:11 | <geekosaur> | :t sequence |
| 16:07:12 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 16:07:37 | <hellwolf> | :t let t = k r in k r (m a) ≅ m (k r a) |
| 16:07:38 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:07:38 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr -> t4’ with actual type ‘Expr’ |
| 16:07:38 | <lambdabot> | • The function ‘k’ is applied to one argument, |
| 16:07:51 | <geekosaur> | sadly, associativity means you can't simply unify t with k r |
| 16:08:05 | <mari-estel> | easier with a lambda hellwolf |
| 16:08:50 | <mari-estel> | :t \ k r (m a) -> m (k r a) |
| 16:08:51 | <lambdabot> | error: Parse error in pattern: m |
| 16:08:51 | <hellwolf> | but that's correct it is the same as: t (m a) ≅ m (t a) where t = k r |
| 16:09:36 | <geekosaur> | mm, actually, yes, I was thinking of the wrong side |
| 16:09:40 | <geekosaur> | it should unify |
| 16:09:56 | <hellwolf> | But I don't think I can have m as Monad, that seems very strong condition... let me think a bit |
| 16:10:17 | <geekosaur> | sequenceA uses Applicative instead |
| 16:10:24 | <geekosaur> | sequence is legacy these days |
| 16:10:46 | <geekosaur> | :t sequenceA |
| 16:10:48 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a) |
| 16:11:04 | <geekosaur> | note that you do need at least Applicative for this to work |
| 16:11:08 | <hellwolf> | yummy. that starts to look like something. |
| 16:13:53 | <hellwolf> | So, I need to implement the sequenceA or traverse function where f must be an applicative. |
| 16:13:57 | <hellwolf> | :t traverse |
| 16:13:57 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) |
| 16:14:14 | <merijn> | :t traverse_ |
| 16:14:15 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f () |
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| 16:18:13 | <geekosaur> | note that, historically, traverse was mapM which was `mapM f xs = sequence (map f xs)` |
| 16:19:10 | <geekosaur> | the reformulation in terms of traverse and sequenceA kinda inverted things a bit |
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| 16:25:39 | ski | idly wonders what hellwolf is trying to do |
| 16:28:41 | <EvanR> | the last thing in my logs was about the package safeint, which is intended to crash if the arithmetic overflows or underflows |
| 16:28:54 | <EvanR> | now that's my kind of "safe" |
| 16:29:36 | <EvanR> | safe in godot game engine is "don't let the game engine ever crash no matter what happens" |
| 16:29:47 | <EvanR> | the exact opposite |
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| 16:31:46 | <mari-estel> | well if no static checks are available, in general one does not want any program to crash at runtime |
| 16:31:49 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> ski, I will be back at explaining, fixing ether cable atm |
| 16:31:53 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> nightmare entanglement in the office of these cables |
| 16:33:09 | <merijn> | EvanR: I mean, it makes sense that (in a game engine) your prime-directive is "do not crash the user's game" :) |
| 16:33:40 | <merijn> | EvanR: There's always fun confusion with the meaning of safe/unsafe in FFI imports too :p |
| 16:33:58 | <EvanR> | different objectives makes sense, calling all them "safe" even if contradictory is annoying |
| 16:34:09 | <merijn> | Where people sometimes interpret "unsafe" as "foreign import something unsafe" as opposed to "unsafely import something foreign" :p |
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| 16:34:57 | <c_wraith> | the thing about godot is that not crashing often implies filling your hard drive with gigabytes of error logs... |
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| 16:38:13 | <EvanR> | if you have something that traditionally leads to a crash, like division by zero, it takes the liberty of yielding null instead. What could go wrong next |
| 16:38:30 | <EvanR> | not crashing so it's fine! |
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| 16:39:58 | <int-e> | . o O ( s/null/this_is_fine/g ) |
| 16:41:51 | <EvanR> | is advent of code still going string in here |
| 16:41:56 | <EvanR> | by string I mean strong |
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| 16:45:01 | <hellwolf> | sequenceA seems more fitting for what I need here. If I restate with my k, which is a category, r ↝ f a is a morphism from r to "f a" in the category of k. Hence, I can rewrite it to: r ↝ (f a) ≅ f (r ↝ a), this is in the shape and form for what I need, but it is also the same as sequenceA if I squint my eyes at it. |
| 16:45:32 | <int-e> | EvanR: it's less of a topic than previous years |
| 16:45:44 | <EvanR> | bummer |
| 16:46:43 | <hellwolf> | And, more importantly, that's how I will implement my pattern matching for this category, as an example, say f is Maybe: |
| 16:46:43 | <hellwolf> | pat :: r ↝ Maybe a ≅ Maybe (r ↝ a), that "pat" function is just an alias for sequenceA, it turns out ... |
| 16:46:54 | <int-e> | but there's 41 people on glguy's leaderboard that have all stars (or 25 people if you include today) |
| 16:47:04 | <int-e> | it's not dead :P |
| 16:47:20 | <sprout> | thank you |
| 16:47:33 | <glguy> | EvanR: I think we used have more discussion in this channel in the years when #adventofcode didn't exist |
| 16:48:05 | <glguy> | A lot of the Haskell AoC discussion moved over |
| 16:48:15 | <hellwolf> | And I also vaguely remember and assume, that all simple ADT (perhaps not GADT) are automatically an applicative, so I kinda have it for free for all ADTs. |
| 16:48:41 | <hellwolf> | or maybe that's wrong, I think trees are not. But it doesn't matter too much to me. |
| 16:48:57 | <EvanR> | really, #adventofcode had a lot of not haskell last times, and I'm always in the habit of never bringing up haskell outside this channel for fear of being ridiculed xD |
| 16:48:59 | <hellwolf> | It's good enough an observation for me to work on. |
| 16:49:37 | <hellwolf> | > for fear of being ridiculed |
| 16:49:37 | <hellwolf> | Is "Haskell" the "Trump" word in programming circle... :p |
| 16:49:38 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:10: error: parse error on input ‘of’ |
| 16:50:03 | EvanR | ridicules hellwolf |
| 16:50:13 | <sprout> | haskell is brat |
| 16:50:26 | <EvanR> | bratwinter is coming |
| 16:51:26 | <glguy> | EvanR: Well my experience is that it's safe to talk about it there, but also I'd happily talk to you about it here :) |
| 16:52:07 | <EvanR> | it would probably be a good way to juice up the old brain |
| 16:52:44 | <EvanR> | not for solving the puzzles but remembering how to run the build systems and git repos xD |
| 16:53:55 | <int-e> | EvanR: those are entirely optional :P |
| 16:56:12 | <EvanR> | how optional is the build system |
| 16:56:29 | <int-e> | runhaskell exists |
| 16:56:37 | <int-e> | (= runghc) |
| 16:57:42 | <glguy> | You could go pretty far with a Makefile and ghc invocations, though I wouldn't want to have to |
| 16:58:19 | <geekosaur> | cabal script -b … mysoln.hs |
| 16:58:47 | <geekosaur> | (omit the -b if you specify the deps in cabal comments) |
| 16:59:16 | <int-e> | it kind of depends on how serious you are taking it; if you have a support library, plain runghc becomes less attractive |
| 17:00:32 | <glguy> | just one support library? |
| 17:01:05 | <int-e> | well I imagine it would depend on a bunch of other ones |
| 17:01:07 | int-e | shrugs |
| 17:02:48 | <int-e> | But base + containers + array cover a lot of territory and come preinstalled with ghc |
| 17:03:06 | <tomsmeding> | definitely |
| 17:03:12 | <tomsmeding> | you hardly need anything else for AoC |
| 17:03:14 | <glguy> | yeah, I mostly stick to containers and array |
| 17:03:34 | <tomsmeding> | I implemented a regex matcher for day 3 |
| 17:03:50 | <tomsmeding> | in 54 lines :p |
| 17:03:53 | <glguy> | I used ReadS |
| 17:04:03 | <tomsmeding> | I realised afterwards I could have used that yes |
| 17:04:31 | <int-e> | And if that's all you use, `runghc` is quite viable. It's literally what I'm using (and used in previous years too when I actually bothered getting up in time to compete somewhat seriously) |
| 17:05:00 | <tomsmeding> | compiling with `ghc` is sometimes helpful though, the interpreter is quite slow at times :p |
| 17:05:08 | <int-e> | (I have made exceptions on a couple of days.) |
| 17:05:14 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: true |
| 17:06:31 | <int-e> | If `runghc` gets slow, I compile, run the compiled version in parallel, and then start thinking about better algorithms. |
| 17:07:22 | <EvanR> | array... |
| 17:07:33 | hellwolf | thinks using Haskell for AoC is cheating. |
| 17:07:37 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 17:07:39 | <int-e> | (and.... sometimes I have to reboot because I didn't think about memory usage until the computer becomes too sluggish to do anything about it) |
| 17:08:17 | <EvanR> | I went to the bank of haskell and deposited all my RAM. Aaaaand it's gone |
| 17:09:56 | <glguy> | hellwolf: I think the fastest people use Python. That's the one we should outlaw :) |
| 17:10:21 | <glguy> | Give the slow functional programmers a chance! |
| 17:10:27 | <hellwolf> | why is Python faster (to come up with a solution)? |
| 17:10:52 | <sprout> | you need to know a lot of abstractions to start with haskell |
| 17:11:29 | <sprout> | a hundred manners of expressing a for loop as a fold/scan/map/.. |
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| 17:14:34 | <sprout> | well, and state and mutation... but let's not go there |
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| 17:15:32 | <hellwolf> | bossing machine around is still an easier thing to do than convincing yourself you understand the problem for real? |
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| 17:16:11 | hellwolf | impersonating the typical sort of Haskell snob talk. |
| 17:17:06 | <monochrom> | Haskell entries come from more Haskell beginners. |
| 17:17:17 | <glguy> | no need to impersonate others, just be yourself |
| 17:17:25 | <hellwolf> | :) |
| 17:17:32 | <monochrom> | That in turn is because one stays as a Haskell beginner for longer. |
| 17:17:36 | <sprout> | yah. I think so. 'I need to loop here', then you write for and figure out the rest |
| 17:17:54 | <EvanR> | haskell has many words all powerful. python has a few words all overpowered |
| 17:18:34 | <glguy> | the aoc problems are pretty small. quick access to mutation and not getting bogged down in types makes for faster answers. To be fast you don't need a carefully structured program, generally |
| 17:18:40 | <sprout> | only when you've written a ton of haskell programs you kind-of get start to get what of the one hundred abstractions will solve your problem |
| 17:19:05 | <glguy> | I still think it's more fun to solve them in Haskell, but I except in a few cases I don't think it has been a speed advantage |
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| 17:21:48 | <EvanR> | you have your accelerating library right |
| 17:21:57 | <EvanR> | does that give you a speed advantage |
| 17:22:10 | <glguy> | yeah, that helps. but it's not Haskell specific |
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| 17:32:10 | hellwolf | continues musing. |
| 17:32:10 | <hellwolf> | Actually, just because the shape is the same, it doesn't mean it is also a Traversable, I am making rudimentary mistake here. My "k r (f a) -> f (k r a)" needs more than applicative constraint on "f", otherwise I can't write such a function. In Haskell, everything is parametric, I have to have the equation works for all values (even constrained.) That means, they look alike, but they are far apart, and I will still |
| 17:32:10 | <hellwolf> | need a special function name for this. |
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| 17:58:50 | <geekosaur> | I am not sure you can write it unconstrained, though |
| 17:59:14 | <geekosaur> | something is needed to perform the inversion |
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| 18:10:07 | <hellwolf> | you cannot. I meant that I needed more constraints, and that makes it impossible to write a "Traversable". My remnant of OOP instinct still find that surprising, since you can always inject something through subtyping. |
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| 18:13:48 | <geekosaur> | also you said k is a category? maybe your categoryt has something equivalent to Applicative? |
| 18:14:14 | <glguy> | int-e: I got today down to < 40ms https://github.com/glguy/advent/blob/main/solutions/src/2024/09.hs - I think I can be done with it now |
| 18:14:16 | <geekosaur> | ("strong lax monoidal functor" iirc) |
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| 18:15:58 | glguy | wonders if anyone uses TransformListComp other when I do AoC |
| 18:15:59 | <geekosaur> | which would still mean you migth not be able to use the Haskell abstractions since they're defined in terms of Hask instead of an arbitrary category k, but you might be able to write the equivalent yourself if your categories support it |
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| 18:19:21 | <int-e> | glguy: hmm a bit slower (and definitely less readable): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Ep9bYKNH ...I focussed more on reusing the part 2 code for part 1. |
| 18:20:07 | <int-e> | (though that makes part 1 a bit slower than it could be) |
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| 18:21:23 | <glguy> | ooh, I found 10ms getting rid of the file map |
| 18:21:24 | <glguy> | Time (mean ± σ): 28.9 ms ± 1.0 ms [User: 21.3 ms, System: 3.1 ms] |
| 18:22:40 | <glguy> | This is the second time I've seen you pull out dropWhiteAntitone |
| 18:22:54 | <glguy> | I need to burn that into my brain so I have it in mind |
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| 18:24:21 | <int-e> | I only know one trick ;-) |
| 18:24:32 | <int-e> | Gotta make the best use of it. |
| 18:24:52 | <int-e> | Related trick: A*-search with minView to get the next node to expand. |
| 18:25:06 | <int-e> | (that's less relevant for you because I believe you have a support function for that) |
| 18:25:38 | <glguy> | My A* uses IntMap.minViewWithKey |
| 18:25:52 | <glguy> | buried in myimplementation of a priority queue |
| 18:26:07 | <int-e> | Ah I have s/IntMap/Set/ |
| 18:26:29 | <int-e> | storing (value,node) pairs |
| 18:30:37 | <int-e> | Btw, there was a weird dual approach to this problem where you start filling the gaps from the front with earliest file from the end that fits. But it's not a simplification, it's about the same amount and kind of code. |
| 18:31:10 | <int-e> | (mostly it changes how you track file ids) |
| 18:31:40 | <glguy> | Oh, I guess that would be slightly simpler because you never have to "put back" a partial file |
| 18:32:16 | <glguy> | while in my case I have to insert the unused freespace back into the map |
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| 18:33:15 | <int-e> | yeah it was very attractive for part 1 |
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| 18:34:05 | <int-e> | hrm |
| 18:35:06 | <int-e> | That's not what I meant to express. It was inspired by part 1 where you literally fill gaps with files starting from the end. |
| 18:35:36 | <int-e> | Anyway, mostly I was disappointed that it didn't simplify anything. |
| 18:36:24 | <int-e> | (for me) |
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| 18:43:56 | <hellwolf> | class PatternMatchable f where match :: k r (f a) -> (f (k r a) -> k r b) -> k r (f b) |
| 18:43:56 | <hellwolf> | with LambdaCase and BlockArguments, I should have: "match p \case -> Pat1 -> result1; Pat2 -> result2; _ -> defaultResult;" |
| 18:43:56 | <hellwolf> | Does this look like anything? |
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| 18:50:16 | <monochrom> | Maybe comonad, but I forgot what its cobind really looks like. |
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| 18:53:50 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> wow, comonad extend function |
| 18:53:58 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b |
| 18:54:08 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 18:55:15 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> But I don't think I can implement extract and duplicate. Let me think a bit |
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| 18:56:32 | <monochrom> | People have considered monads minus pure and comonads minus extract. I forgot what they're called. |
| 18:56:37 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> my uneducated guess, CoApplicative? |
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| 18:59:20 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b |
| 18:59:32 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> vs. |
| 18:59:32 | <haskellbridge> | extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b |
| 19:04:13 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> nah, I squinted too hard, not the same |
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| 19:53:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> On practice they are called Bind and Duplicate IIRC, but I think they are just other algebraic structures over endofunctors of a categroy |
| 19:53:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Category* lol |
| 19:53:53 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Haven't seen them with other names |
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| 20:21:42 | <iqubic> | Is foldl bad to use? |
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| 20:22:19 | <Rembane> | iqubic: It builds up a lot of thunks. foldl' is better. |
| 20:22:42 | <iqubic> | What do dropWhileAntitone and takeWhileAntitone do from Data.Map? |
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| 20:24:08 | <int-e> | they do dropWhile on keys, but you promise that the predicate is antitonic, i.e. k1 <= k2 --> p k1 >= p k2. So basically, true until some cut-off point, then false. |
| 20:25:37 | <iqubic> | I see. Interesting. |
| 20:25:40 | <int-e> | (or takeWhile; there's also a span version) |
| 20:26:09 | <int-e> | the point is that this can be done in logarithmic time |
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| 20:27:18 | <int-e> | (on a flat array you could do a binary search) |
| 20:28:04 | <iqubic> | What's the span version? |
| 20:28:10 | <iqubic> | :t span |
| 20:28:11 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a]) |
| 20:28:14 | <int-e> | :t M.spanAntitone |
| 20:28:15 | <lambdabot> | (k -> Bool) -> M.Map k a -> (M.Map k a, M.Map k a) |
| 20:28:20 | <int-e> | :t S.spanAntitone |
| 20:28:21 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Bool) -> S.Set a -> (S.Set a, S.Set a) |
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| 20:28:46 | <iqubic> | Oh. I see... span is doing takeWhile and dropWhile at the same time. |
| 20:28:50 | <int-e> | @src span |
| 20:28:50 | <lambdabot> | span _ xs@[] = (xs, xs) |
| 20:28:50 | <lambdabot> | span p xs@(x:xs') | p x = let (ys,zs) = span p xs' in (x:ys,zs) |
| 20:28:50 | <lambdabot> | | otherwise = ([],xs) |
| 20:29:05 | <iqubic> | :t break |
| 20:29:06 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a]) |
| 20:29:12 | <int-e> | (I was wondering whether that would say span f xs = (takeWhile f xs, dropWhile f xs) |
| 20:29:14 | <tomsmeding> | break == span . not |
| 20:29:25 | <iqubic> | Ah... I see. |
| 20:30:15 | <int-e> | takeWhile : dropWhile : span :: take : drop : splitAt |
| 20:30:53 | <tomsmeding> | (and still no splitOn) |
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| 20:31:48 | <int-e> | the split design space is too fragmented for base ;-) |
| 20:33:16 | <EvanR> | foldl on a list is likely to not be what you want but there are funny counterexamples |
| 20:33:33 | <EvanR> | foldl on other structures might be what you want for that structure |
| 20:33:56 | <int-e> | There's still no sortOn in base either. And even that seems fair because there are two reasonable versions, one for cheap functions (in terms of sortBy) and one for expensive functions (that would make an auxiliary list pairing keys and values, sort that, and then extract the values again) |
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| 20:36:04 | <tomsmeding> | % :t Data.List.sortOn -- int-e |
| 20:36:04 | <yahb2> | Data.List.sortOn -- int-e :: Ord b => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [a] |
| 20:36:34 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: has been there since ghc 7.10 :) |
| 20:37:04 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: apart from your Accelerate implementations (Which don't work with upstream Accelerate, as I understand it), are you aware of other Haskell implementations of ADBench? |
| 20:37:05 | <tomsmeding> | this is the one for expensive functions; the one for cheap functions is `sortBy . comparing` |
| 20:37:14 | <Athas> | There's lots of Haskell AD libraries. Not sure how widely they are used. |
| 20:37:30 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: wow. how did I mess up my check for that earlier... |
| 20:37:38 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: right, my implementations run on my hacked up fork of Accelerate |
| 20:37:47 | <int-e> | probably didn't import Data.List somehow |
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| 20:38:02 | <geekosaur> | I'm surprised you didn't know about it |
| 20:38:15 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: I don't think I ever looked for any such; I could now start looking for them, but I don't think I'm a better searcher than you are :) |
| 20:38:38 | <int-e> | geekosaur: I /thought/ it was there and then I checked and didn't see. I'm not actively using Haskell as much as I'd like. |
| 20:38:43 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: Kmett's `ad` will perform miserably; I'm not sure about others |
| 20:38:45 | <Athas> | tomsmeding: I suppose not. Thanks anyway. |
| 20:39:20 | <int-e> | And evidently my memory isn't great. |
| 20:39:23 | <Athas> | 'ad' is actively maintained and very elaborate. Surely it has some merits? |
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| 20:39:54 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: sure, but it considers arrays just Traversables of scalars |
| 20:40:04 | <tomsmeding> | that ain't gonna be very fast if you have big arrays |
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| 20:40:26 | <tomsmeding> | (it'll build a tape of all the individual scalar operations, with >=1 heap node per operation) |
| 20:40:36 | <tomsmeding> | given this fundamental design, it's very fast |
| 20:40:47 | <Athas> | Ah, I see. So no dense packing of values. |
| 20:40:52 | <tomsmeding> | but this design puts a fairly low ceiling on performance for big stuff |
| 20:41:06 | <Athas> | So probably not worth using for ADBench ports. |
| 20:41:16 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think so, though it may be amusing |
| 20:42:04 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: I compared `ad` at some point with a TH-based code transformation that did a similar thing to what `ad` does at runtime, but statically |
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| 20:42:17 | <tomsmeding> | surely you'd think that the static code transformation will result in faster code? |
| 20:42:29 | <Athas> | Depends on what you mean by "similar thing". |
| 20:42:43 | <tomsmeding> | also dual numbers, also producing a tape in memory |
| 20:42:48 | <tomsmeding> | it's really quite similar |
| 20:42:57 | <tomsmeding> | but it was only about 2x as fast |
| 20:43:12 | <tomsmeding> | sure, faster than `ad`, but `ad` does lots more stuff dynamically |
| 20:43:23 | <tomsmeding> | `ad` is _fast_ for the algorithm that it implements |
| 20:43:58 | <int-e> | geekosaur: tbh it's possible that I was looking for minimumOn and overgeneralized |
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| 20:44:40 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: ( https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3571247 , Section 10, Table 1) |
| 20:44:48 | <tomsmeding> | oh hah, that's the old one |
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| 20:45:07 | <tomsmeding> | optimisation got me to https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.03418 Table 1 (p.49) |
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| 20:47:28 | <Athas> | I wonder to which extent GHC's impressive specialisation/inlining capabilities allow it to optimise the 'ad' code. |
| 20:48:25 | <tomsmeding> | Athas: you do have a point there. I don't know :) |
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| 20:56:25 | <monochrom> | Great idea: ($!) can be renamed to bangOn. >:) |
| 20:57:12 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: by that logic, ($) would become 'on', which is already taken :p |
| 20:57:42 | <monochrom> | It can be lazyOn. |
| 20:58:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> lazyBang |
| 20:58:05 | <tomsmeding> | (that could be song lyrics) |
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| 21:03:30 | <sprotte24> | Hi |
| 21:04:25 | <sprotte24> | I have a problem with haskell getChar. It waits until I press enter key |
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| 21:05:05 | <monochrom> | That would also be true of C getc(). |
| 21:05:05 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: this is buffering by your shell; try hSetBuffering stdin NoBuffering |
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| 21:06:27 | <sprotte24> | I use vscode with terminal and ghci> |
| 21:07:08 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: this is not haskell-specific, this happens in any language |
| 21:07:16 | <sprotte24> | wher can I put the hSetBuffering ... line? |
| 21:07:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Pyu> sprotte24: That's what getChar does, it gets a character from stdin. Enter counts as a character |
| 21:07:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Pyu> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/gIzyVdsjDYHWeSAmkSgfNdAb/ridYFsUrMxY/image.png |
| 21:08:16 | <tomsmeding> | whether ghci puts stdin in NoBuffering mode might be platform-dependent |
| 21:08:31 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: if you want predictable buffering behaviour for stdin, don't use ghci |
| 21:08:47 | <sprotte24> | I read the problem might be in M$ windows |
| 21:09:32 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: if you type some letters (without pressing enter), and then press backspace, do the letters disappear again? |
| 21:09:36 | <tomsmeding> | (under `getChar`) |
| 21:09:54 | <sprotte24> | I will try that |
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| 21:13:28 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: if so: Haskell has no logic to handle backspace on input. It's your terminal (in this case vscode, but it could be any terminal) that does that: it allows you to compose some input, using backspace if you want, and once you press enter, the text is actually sent to the application |
| 21:13:32 | <tomsmeding> | this is called "buffering" |
| 21:14:02 | <geekosaur> | well, not exactly. ghci does _line editing_. |
| 21:14:07 | <tomsmeding> | as the application, you can tell the terminal to not do this and send keys through immediately; you do this for the input stream (stdin) by running `hSetBuffering stdin NoBuffering` |
| 21:14:12 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: we're talking about `getChar` here |
| 21:14:20 | <geekosaur> | buffering is actually soemthing different which Haskell somewhat stupidly conflates with it |
| 21:14:29 | <tomsmeding> | sure, ghci does far more than this, but ghci is also not your terminal, and `getChar` does not go through ghci's line editing machinery |
| 21:14:37 | <geekosaur> | getChar has no idea that the thing sending the characters is doing line editing |
| 21:14:58 | <sprotte24> | when I type a char on keyboard, it is shown, and with backspace ist goes to left and disappers |
| 21:15:19 | <geekosaur> | getChar is done by your program, ghci puts the terminal in rtaw mode and then processes input using haskeline |
| 21:15:33 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: that must be a windows-only feature then |
| 21:15:49 | <tomsmeding> | on my linux box, getChar gets characters immediately (i.e. what sprotte24 wants but doesn't get) |
| 21:15:53 | <tomsmeding> | when in ghci |
| 21:16:17 | <tomsmeding> | (outside of ghci, getChar is subject to normal terminal buffering, and whatever line editing features your terminal provides -- typically little more than backspace) |
| 21:16:50 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: I'm not sure if you'll be able to get what you want in ghci, but ouside ghci, the hSetBuffering call should change settings so that getChar returns immediately after a single keypress |
| 21:17:04 | <geekosaur> | it should also be noted that windows doesn't really support line vs. raw mode, and the lower level function getChar uses emulates it. iirc you must use a Win32 module function to avoid that |
| 21:17:36 | <tomsmeding> | oh the dumb line editing in a standalone haskell program when you do `getChar` is implemented by the RTS? |
| 21:17:41 | <tomsmeding> | (on windows) |
| 21:19:16 | <geekosaur> | the _Windows_ RTS, not Haskell's |
| 21:19:37 | <tomsmeding> | oh interesting |
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| 21:19:42 | <geekosaur> | a library that simulates POSIX command line parameter handling, terminal handling, etc. |
| 21:19:48 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 21:20:24 | <tomsmeding> | okay, so my claims about what software is responsible for this weren't quite correct |
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| 21:20:33 | <tomsmeding> | but the cure is still accurate, I think |
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| 21:28:22 | <sprotte24> | just compile with ghci> ghc filename.hs does not work, I thought I could compile ith code and run ist without ghci? |
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| 21:29:47 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: you should call `ghc` outside ghci |
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| 21:38:24 | <monochrom> | This is why at some point I tell students "it's telephone games all the way down". |
| 21:40:21 | <EvanR> | the chinese room thought experiment, but you take liberties with the translation rules |
| 21:41:01 | <monochrom> | With some many middle-persons --- ghci, vscode, terminal emulator, the OS --- you can be certain that each of them tries to do something funny behind your back, and you can't be certain what cause(s) waiting for <enter> and which one to talk to to disable it. |
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| 21:45:45 | <monochrom> | A favourite exam question (for a unix course) is to write a Bourne shell echo command to output, say, 2 backslashes. (The gist being that the shell itself is one layer of escaping and its echo command adds one more layer of escaping.) |
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| 21:46:42 | <sprotte24> | tomsmeding, I was able to compile from VSC Terminal,it works. But the buffering problem persists. It is a hoework game hangman, I have to enter single matching characters, bute it answers only by using return key. And I can enter some more characters without reaction, but when I type return key the code the program writes all outstanding steps |
| 21:47:06 | <tomsmeding> | also with the hSetBuffering call at the start of your program? |
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| 21:48:01 | <int-e> | monochrom: do you ask for the first 20 characters of `print (fix show)` for functional programming? :) |
| 21:48:08 | <geekosaur> | didnt we already determine he was tasked with writing a function to be run in ghci? |
| 21:48:17 | <geekosaur> | so there's no main? |
| 21:48:53 | <geekosaur> | (scan back for yesterday's discussion of how getArgs or equivalent isn't part of the assignment) |
| 21:48:57 | <int-e> | > last $ take 20 $ fix show |
| 21:48:58 | <lambdabot> | '\\' |
| 21:49:25 | <monochrom> | Yes. But then ghci inside different contexts still behave differently. I just tried ghci inside emacs haskell-mode, it still waits for <enter>. |
| 21:50:48 | <monochrom> | At this point we have insufficient information about the testing environment. (Does the instructor even care about VSCode?) |
| 21:50:56 | <monochrom> | (I know I wouldn't.) |
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| 21:53:13 | <monochrom> | int-e: I don't teach print (or the Show instance of String), so I don't put that on the exam. |
| 21:54:20 | <monochrom> | But I can provide, on the fly, a function f doing the same thing as show for String, then ask about x = f x. |
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| 21:55:41 | <EvanR> | f sounds non trivial to describe |
| 21:55:53 | <monochrom> | I already teach the construction method of x0 = bottom, x1 = f x0, x2 = f x1, etc |
| 21:56:16 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: f ('"':s) = '\\' : '"' : f s; f ('\\':s) = '\\' : '\\' : s; f (c:s) = c : f s |
| 21:56:21 | <tomsmeding> | plenty for this :p |
| 21:56:23 | <sprotte24> | I get very little help. We have to transfer the haskell code to out university. The code ist tested automatically. The answer was: It compiles, but while testing, Ig get runtime errors. The behaviour of the online test may be other (unix?) than my own (windows). Haskell executes a bunch of different tests. |
| 21:57:04 | <monochrom> | Yes it's very much simpler if you use Linux. |
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| 21:59:24 | <sprotte24> | next week we will end with haskell, continue with prolog :-) |
| 22:01:30 | <sprotte24> | our main topic is declarative programming |
| 22:01:51 | <monochrom> | With automated testing, I wouldn't worry about getChar "waiting for <enter>", probabilistically speaking. |
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| 22:04:25 | <monochrom> | The "waiting" is caused by running things in a terminal context, not by getChar itself (it has no control over this). An automated testing environment that tries to reproduce/emulate a terminal context is way too much work, no one is likely to actually do that kind of testing. I know because I tried and gave up. |
| 22:06:11 | <monochrom> | Instead the automated testing environment is much more likely to just use Unix pipelining or file redirection, which takes zero effort to set up (they are how Unix works by default), in which no "waiting" will happen. |
| 22:06:20 | <tomsmeding> | (why does one specify an auto-graded assignment with getChar? Just have the assignment say "use getLine and take the first character" or something) |
| 22:06:42 | <tomsmeding> | (then this whole problem doesn't even come up) |
| 22:07:28 | <sprotte24> | So I get 0 of 4 points for this task, unfair. The code runs using enter key but this is not allowed |
| 22:07:53 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: have you tried submitting code that uses getChar, and whenever you receive '\n', just ignore it and getChar again? |
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| 22:08:08 | <tomsmeding> | not saying this will work, but under monochrom's assumption, it may be what the testing framework expects |
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| 22:10:26 | <monochrom> | Oh I have zero sympathy for "my code works but it doesn't pass your tests". |
| 22:10:51 | <int-e> | no sympathy for either side? |
| 22:10:59 | <monochrom> | No sympathy for the complainer. |
| 22:11:13 | <tomsmeding> | I'd first want to see the assignment description before passing that jugement |
| 22:11:15 | <tomsmeding> | *judgement |
| 22:11:28 | <monochrom> | OTOH I agree that the failure case demands more information than "failed". |
| 22:11:28 | <int-e> | I wanted to say "specification" but yes. That. |
| 22:11:58 | <tomsmeding> | especially if no test suite is provided with the assignment to the students |
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| 22:12:32 | <int-e> | Involving interactive IO in assignments sounds risky. |
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| 22:12:55 | <EvanR> | tomsmeding, judgment! |
| 22:13:01 | <geekosaur> | what do you do if the "test suite" is "upload your work to our server, which will test it and give you pass/fail" |
| 22:13:02 | <tomsmeding> | and non-line-based interactive IO is even worse |
| 22:13:29 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: I always get that wrong, I find that spelling very unintuitive |
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| 22:13:49 | <EvanR> | the silent and now invisible e |
| 22:14:01 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: that's not a test suite, that's an online autograder. A local test suite is a white box that you can look into, to understand whatever the assignment specification left underspecified |
| 22:14:04 | <monochrom> | Yeah I had to hardcode a special case in my head for "judgment". |
| 22:14:13 | <monochrom> | English die die die. |
| 22:14:28 | <geekosaur> | yes, my point is that a lot of palces seem to be doing the black box thing |
| 22:14:39 | <tomsmeding> | we don't :p |
| 22:14:39 | <int-e> | EvanR: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/commonly-confused-words/judgement-judgment/ -- not so clear |
| 22:14:57 | <monochrom> | But I think judgement is widely accepted too. |
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| 22:15:44 | <tomsmeding> | Wiktionary calls it "archaic" |
| 22:16:08 | <int-e> | "that's, like, from the last century" |
| 22:16:14 | <tomsmeding> | and dictionary.com doesn't even have it |
| 22:16:28 | <geekosaur> | fwiw whatever local dictionary is being used to spellcheck what I type into IRC/matrix/emacs thinks both are fine |
| 22:16:29 | <tomsmeding> | I don't have access to better dictionaries here |
| 22:16:30 | <EvanR> | I read the article thanks |
| 22:16:41 | <EvanR> | it says that an unsurprising number of people misspell this word! xD |
| 22:17:41 | <monochrom> | But a logical conclusion of "this language is not dead, it's evolving" is that if enough people "misspell" it then it is ratified. |
| 22:17:53 | <EvanR> | screw it roll back and just go with jugement |
| 22:18:02 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 22:18:47 | <geekosaur> | jujmnt |
| 22:18:54 | <EvanR> | ^ |
| 22:19:18 | <int-e> | . o O ( verdict ) |
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| 22:20:30 | <monochrom> | Isn't there some kind of instructor office hours when you can bring your code to the instructor and ask in what way it fails the test? |
| 22:20:44 | <tomsmeding> | sprotte24: ^ |
| 22:21:22 | <monochrom> | When it's my turn to teach, I am actually infuriated when students ask total strangers instead of me. |
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| 22:24:09 | <monochrom> | Sometimes, when I can help it, I actually design assignments to punish students who ask total strangers. Remember that time when I created an assignment for the probability monad but called it "MonadRandom" so that if students googled it they would get it all wrong? >:) |
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| 22:25:04 | <glguy> | Are you seeing new kinds of garbage submitted now that ChatGPT can help to write incorrect code? |
| 22:25:11 | tomsmeding | remembers that |
| 22:25:53 | <glguy> | I've been asking it how to improve my AoC solutions and it's been offering bugs I could add to them |
| 22:26:19 | <glguy> | it sometimes comes up with nice ideas for my comments, though |
| 22:26:35 | <monochrom> | And during summer, a colleague teaching a math course defined an "algebraic structure", the axioms of which are exactly the ring axioms. I asked him, he confirmed that he did it to confuse students who use chatGPT. |
| 22:26:50 | <int-e> | -- here be dragons |
| 22:27:35 | <glguy> | It thought I could make my p1 solution today a little more concise by not handling the moving of things from the end back into free spaces |
| 22:27:50 | <glguy> | told me that that was an "optimization" |
| 22:29:32 | <EvanR> | ChatGPT is so smart that it realizes you're trying to solve AoC questions, and intentionally gives you wrong answers so you can't cheat! |
| 22:29:54 | <int-e> | glguy: well, did it make the code faster ;) |
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| 22:30:31 | <glguy> | actually, probably not. That case decremented both the left *and* right cursor (the code runs until the cursors meet up) |
| 22:30:48 | <int-e> | hah |
| 22:30:49 | <glguy> | so the loop would probably have run for more iterations that way than without the help |
| 22:31:02 | <monochrom> | haha so much carbon footprint spent on increasing more carbon footprint |
| 22:31:07 | <int-e> | was there a chance to run off the left end? |
| 22:31:30 | <glguy> | the stop condition was if the left cursor exceeded the right cursor |
| 22:31:43 | <int-e> | Maybe it's not worthwhile to analyze bugs that were introduced with zero thought behind them. |
| 22:31:44 | <glguy> | and the left cursor always advances by one, so probably not |
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| 22:32:14 | <int-e> | (This is the main reason I'm staying away from LLMs... they're bound to be wrong on anything interesting and there's nothing to learn from their mistakes.) |
| 22:33:18 | <glguy> | As someone working around "computer security" I'm looking forward to all the new buggy software we're going to get from letting LLMs help generate it |
| 22:33:24 | <int-e> | I /suppose/ they can be useful for finding adjacent keywords for a problem. But surely there are cheaper ways to accomplish that. |
| 22:34:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Any papers on Normalization by Evaluation with constraints? I'd like to know how to represent builtins that have constraints in them |
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| 22:36:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Erasing (evidence translating constraints) the whole program in order to run it seems wasteful for an interpreter |
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| 23:58:03 | <dpratt> | curses! my AoC day 9 code produces the right answer for the test input, but not the real input (it's too high apparently)! |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-12-09.