Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-12-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:01:36 <c_wraith> too high?
00:02:09 <dpratt> c_wraith yeah and maybe I just found where the bug might live...
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00:04:54 <glguy> dpratt: What answers do you get for this input? 11223
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00:07:24 <dpratt> glguy 47
00:07:57 <glguy> OK, that's right for p2, so that'd indicate you aren't relocating things to the right :)
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00:10:27 <dpratt> glguy I should've clarified I got the right answer for p1 on the real input, p2 is the problem
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00:15:19 <glguy> There are other mistakes possible for p2, that's just a common one so I thouight I'd ask about it first
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00:24:49 <Axman6> what's the problem for day 9? I never got into AoC but did enjoy Andres' and Edsko's solutions on youtube
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00:27:01 <glguy> You're given a description of a little filesystem and you have to defragment
00:27:04 <glguy> it
00:27:17 <c_wraith> It's basically a direction-following exercise. Can you do this data manipulation exactly according to the rules they give?
00:27:46 <c_wraith> (I could not. My first attempt simplified it and resulted in better results, but wasn't the requested operation)
00:27:53 <jackdk> I've always liked jle` 's blog posts, where he taps the problem with the right algebraic hammer and the whole thing falls in half
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03:02:56 <r-sta> hi
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03:03:08 <r-sta> i am having problems making an infinite constraint terminate
03:03:08 <r-sta> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/egNnQEOs
03:03:24 <r-sta> i cant seems to choose between two options with a type family
03:03:27 <r-sta> i cant tell why
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03:04:38 <r-sta> should it be able to match in a type family like;
03:04:39 <r-sta>  Choice s c l c a = ()
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03:04:51 <r-sta> on the variable `c'
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03:05:19 <r-sta> (this is when the cursor variable c meets the end e, in s c l e a
03:05:21 <r-sta> )
03:05:59 <r-sta> should I be using equality on Nats directly, and make the "choice" some other way?
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03:08:15 <r-sta> chatGPT isnt much help https://chatgpt.com/share/6757b090-1b74-800b-82fa-8efe8de56a3e
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03:10:02 <geekosaur> chatgpt is almost never helpful when it comes to Haskell
03:10:07 <geekosaur> just don't
03:11:19 <probie> I don't think GHC can do what you want here, but even if it could, it would fail. Assume c = e. That gives you `Constr c l a => (forall c'.Carrage s c' l e a -> IO [[Double]]) -> IO ()`.
03:12:21 <r-sta> but thats correct!
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03:13:09 <probie> When you recursively call `movingCarrage @s @(S c) @l @e @a f` it needs to have a `(InfiniteConstraint s (S c) l e a)`, but that's _not_ in your constraint.
03:14:02 <r-sta> but infinite constraint includes that
03:16:27 <probie> No. What does `InfiniteConstraint Z Z Z Z a` reduce to? `(Constr Z Z a, ())` which is `Constr Z Z a`. How does it go from `Constr Z Z a` to `InfiniteConstraint Z (S Z) Z Z a`?
03:17:28 <r-sta> well it shouldnt
03:17:33 <r-sta> thats when the recursion terminates
03:17:50 <r-sta> you can use (S c) == e if you like
03:18:17 <r-sta> oh shoot! your right
03:18:24 <r-sta> movingCarrage should be in a class
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03:25:20 <r-sta> even if you do this it still hangs, which i cant understand
03:25:21 <r-sta> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/CnH4XFk6
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03:25:38 <r-sta> probie: i mean, it should certainly be possible to do what im trying to
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03:26:06 <r-sta> it should just terminate in its creating the infiniteConstraint
03:26:22 <r-sta> im not even calling it with any values though (eg, so i cant guarantee c < e)
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03:26:33 <r-sta> so i dont get why it tries to solve anything
03:26:41 <r-sta> it clearly tries to solve something it cant
03:26:45 <r-sta> since it hangs
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03:28:54 <r-sta> here is the full code so you can reproduce the error
03:28:55 <r-sta> https://github.com/munston/store/tree/main/store/store%20v3
03:30:04 <r-sta> can anyone figure out how to implement the working solution?
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03:41:39 <r-sta> do you think the forall is making the infinite case?
03:41:48 <r-sta> the quantified constraint in the function?
03:42:07 <r-sta> i cant see why else it would enter into an evaluation with *any* (arbitrary?) choice
03:42:11 <probie> What is "the working solution"? Just something which typechecks, or does it need to use specific things?
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03:42:38 <r-sta> it should basically recurse along the sequence updating the cursor, until it reaches the end
03:42:39 <r-sta> er...
03:42:42 <r-sta> thats not right sorry
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03:43:17 <r-sta> it should fill the container, from c to c+l
03:43:30 <r-sta> as long as s <= c < e
03:43:43 <r-sta> and it should recurse to do so
03:43:55 <r-sta> from c ~ s, to (S c) ~ e
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03:44:12 <r-sta> it should not be trying to solve a constraint for c >= e
03:44:20 <r-sta> since there should be no recursive call
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03:47:44 <r-sta> its a cool problem, but im totally defeated by it
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03:53:39 <r-sta> can anyone explain where it conjours the Nats from
03:53:54 <r-sta> if it enters an infinite loop, what choice of numbers is it using and why!?
03:54:53 <r-sta> i get the feeling it cant prove the lessthan constrain, so it then goes on to try to prove the recurive constraints instead
03:54:59 <r-sta> where it should actually guard against this
03:55:05 <r-sta> thats why i was using a type family
03:55:11 <r-sta> so they would be evaluated in order
03:56:18 <probie> Untested and probably containing typos, but maybe something like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GxWHwaLiwill lead you down the right path
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03:57:57 <r-sta> this version compiles!
03:57:58 <r-sta> https://pastebin.com/raw/S4UAW8AW
03:58:09 <r-sta> probie: dead link
03:58:50 <r-sta> maybe the solver was being confused somehow... idk why the previous versions didnt work
03:58:55 <r-sta> maybe GHC is cursed!
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04:00:42 <r-sta> (alert the args in recurse are the wrong way round! but it still works tother way round also!)
04:00:56 <r-sta> what a fiasco!
04:01:09 <r-sta> now i just have to write an example to prove it terminates
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04:02:08 <probie> r-sta: insert a space before the world "will" (https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GxWHwaLi)
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05:47:17 <iqubic> I love that you can do pattern matching in a list comprehension. "onlyJusts xs = [x | Just x <- xs]"
05:47:36 <iqubic> "onlyJusts :: [Maybe a] -> [a]
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05:51:17 <probie> Also works with do notation if the monad in question implements MonadFail
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05:52:02 <probie> > (\xs->do{Just x<-xs;[x]}) [if even x && x > 5 then Just x else Nothing | x <- [1..10]]
05:52:04 <lambdabot> [6,8,10]
05:54:14 <probie> > map (\y->do{Right x<- pure y; Just x}) [Left 1, Right 2]
05:54:16 <lambdabot> [Nothing,Just 2]
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06:02:06 <iqubic> Yeah, I thought that might be the case.
06:03:06 <iqubic> Something I noticed a few days ago is that every list comprehension can be rewritten as a do block with the usage of guard.
06:03:09 <iqubic> :t guard
06:03:11 <lambdabot> Alternative f => Bool -> f ()
06:03:40 <iqubic> I guess that's why the MonadicComprehensions Language extension exists.
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06:06:54 <monochrom> No, MonadComprehension is the other way round. You can use [foo | pat <- bar] for any monad, i.e., bar can be Maybe a, State s a, IO a, ...
06:08:42 <monochrom> Whereas using do-notation for [] has been around since [] was made a Monad instance.
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06:09:56 <probie> List comprehensions in Haskell predate monads in Haskell. I think if they hadn't existed prior, we probably wouldn't have had them, and would have just used do notation
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07:42:00 <kqr> I was under the assumption that attoparsec could consume streaming input and that this would allow it to have a nearly constant memory footprint even for large inputs. The haddocks say, near the top, "Incremental input [...] gives much more control to users of the library over matters such as resource usage". This is then corroborated with the later point "The usual use for lazy bytestrings would
07:42:03 <kqr> be to allow consumption of very large input without a large footprint. For this need, attoparsec's incremental input provides an excellent substitute, with much more control over when input takes place." However, under the Incremental input heading, it goes on to say "incremental input does not imply that attoparsec will release portions of its internal state for garbage collection as it proceeds.
07:42:05 <kqr> Its internal representation is equivalent to a single ByteString: if you feed incremental input to a parser, it will require memory proportional to the amount of input you supply."
07:42:08 <kqr> I'm very confused by this. Does it not contradict itself?
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07:47:59 <probie> The amount of memory retained depends on your parser. It needs to retain enough previous input so that it can backtrack, so where and how the parser backtracks is important here. As long as backtracking can't occur, previous inputs can be GC-ed
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08:24:39 <kqr> Aha, I see. That makes more sense! Thanks
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09:52:52 <kqr> Can I force attoparsec to not backtrack past a certain point? There are certain points in my input data where I know if it has successfully parsed up until then, it should never go back behind it again.
09:57:35 tomsmeding . o O ( Prolog's `cut` )
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09:59:05 <tomsmeding> kqr: with a bit of finicking I think you can manually write a value of type Parser that does the thing, by mapping Failure to Fail
10:00:20 <kqr> Hm. That sounds like an idea. Although I realised in this case I can get around the problem by successfully parsing a sentinel value
10:00:36 <kqr> (instead of the failure that caused it to backtrack in the first place)
10:01:18 <tomsmeding> kqr: look at the definition of `plus` here, which is the (<|>) on Parser https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/src/Data.Attoparsec.Internal.Types.html#plus
10:01:30 <tomsmeding> instead of passing lose', pass something that returns Fail immediately
10:05:46 <kqr> Hm, but that constructor is not exported for public use, is it?
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10:07:40 <tomsmeding> "public"
10:07:42 <tomsmeding> it isn't
10:07:54 <tomsmeding> write `cut` and send a PR :p
10:08:02 <tomsmeding> _make_ it public
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10:18:22 <kqr> I'm thinking maybe I'm wanting the wrong thing, though. I was trying to work around a bad parser by not backtracking, but maybe the solution is to write a better parser! If nobody else has needed a Prolog cut in attoparsec then maybe it's just not needed...
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10:43:57 <probie> The problem is that `cut` breaks the `Alternative` laws, which are certainly assumed for parsers
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11:02:08 <dminuoso> kqr: You might be interested in flatparse, by the way.
11:02:31 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flatparse-0.5.1.1/docs/FlatParse-Basic.html#v:cut
11:03:34 <kqr> probie, Right, yeah, that makes sense.
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11:06:50 <kqr> dminuoso, that certainly looks interesting. The reason I noticed the backtracking in the first place was that I was wrapping an attoparsec in a StateT, but embedding ST in the parser the way flatparse does it seems like the better way to go about it
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11:46:02 <briandaed> is there a command to ask bot for list of recommended books?
11:46:57 <mauke> @where books
11:46:57 <lambdabot> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books is the best list of Haskell books. See also: LYAH, HTAC, RWH, PH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, FSAF, HftVB, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH,
11:46:57 <lambdabot> non-haskell-books
11:47:01 <mauke> @where book
11:47:01 <lambdabot> http://haskellbook.com/
11:47:03 <mauke> hmm
11:47:34 <mauke> @where pcph
11:47:34 <lambdabot> "Parallel and Concurrent Programming in Haskell" by Simon Marlow in 2013 at <http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/pcph/>,<http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000929/>,<https://web.archive.
11:47:34 <lambdabot> org/web/20180117194842/http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000929>,<https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/>
11:47:43 <briandaed> mauke: thank you
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12:49:22 <lxsameer> hey folks, I was wondering how does haskell laziness works. Is it a compile time thing or runtime? for instance, if we have a list of functions A and a function f which randomly picks the first n functions of list A and apply them to a value. what will ghc do with the list, how does laziness work here?
12:52:09 <int-e> There are heap representations for unevaluated values, so-called thunks; after a thunk is evaluated, the heap object is replaced by the value (possibly via an indirection)
12:52:13 <int-e> so it's mostly a runtime thing
12:55:12 <lxsameer> int-e: so ghc includes some logic to compile the code in runtime? or it compiles thunks on compile time and just eval them on runtime?
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12:58:39 <int-e> There's no runtime code generation. But a thunk (which is a heap object, so data) contains a pointer to code that evaluates it.
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12:59:36 <kuribas> lxsameer: It's both. ghc can do optimizations which preserve lazy semantics. It can also infer that a function is really strict, so generate strict code.
12:59:37 <lxsameer> int-e: so every function in list A will be compiled in compiletime to a thunk
13:00:28 <lxsameer> kuribas: so it actually looks at the function body and compiles it everthough it might not get evaluate at all at runtime
13:00:30 <lxsameer> correct?
13:00:32 <mauke> not sure what that means
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13:01:45 <lxsameer> talking about the list A again, GHC will compile all the functions in list A and optimize them even without the knowledge whether they will be evaluated at runtime or not
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13:02:03 <lxsameer> did I get it correctly?
13:02:33 <kuribas> lxsameer: yes, it's the code the thunk refers to.
13:03:25 <kuribas> lxsameer: A think is a pointer to a code address, and a data address with the closure over that function.
13:03:52 <lxsameer> cool, I was reading about the problems of Fexprs and I was wondering how does ghc handles a lazy code that it does not know much about whether it gets evaluated or not
13:04:33 <lxsameer> kuribas: I'm familiar with thunks, my main issue is with how does ghc knows what to compile and what to ignore
13:04:36 <geekosaur> lxsameer: ghc generates a graph of thunks/code to be evaluated, and uses a graph reduction engine at runtime to reduce the graph as parts are needed
13:05:08 <geekosaur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_reduction
13:05:10 <lxsameer> geekosaur: interesting, is it based on a paper or something?
13:05:49 <lxsameer> cool, thanks folks
13:05:59 <geekosaur> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/99370.99385
13:06:10 <mauke> @where stg
13:06:10 <lambdabot> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.53.3729
13:06:13 <lxsameer> perfect, thank you
13:06:18 <geekosaur> note: this paper is not so much about the theory as it is an implementation
13:06:28 <geekosaur> the wikipedia page will be better for the fundamentals
13:06:39 <lxsameer> cheers. will read both
13:07:25 <mauke> is that citeseer page broken for anyone else?
13:07:40 <lxsameer> it's broken for me too
13:07:55 <geekosaur> also here
13:08:20 <geekosaur> the ACM one works
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13:09:00 <mauke> @where+ stg https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/99370.99385
13:09:00 <lambdabot> Done.
13:09:35 <lxsameer> thank you folks
13:10:01 <kuribas> lxsameer: if it inlines code, it can remove code which doesn't get called.
13:10:40 <kuribas> lxsameer: for example "head [1..]", it can inline the definition of [1..] into head, to rewrite it to 1.
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13:17:26 <kuribas> lxsameer: but for a not inlined function, it has to include the whole definition, because it only knows at runtime what to call.
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13:25:23 <lxsameer> kuribas: cheers
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13:50:42 <merijn> lxsameer: Also, the above discussion is why pedants always say that Haskell is "non-strict" and not lazy. That is, GHC is allowed to compile code to be strict IFF it can't prove the strict version behaves identically to the lazy one
13:51:54 <lxsameer> merijn: Cool, I'm pretty instrested to learn more about how GHC does it.
13:52:23 <lxsameer> Specially about the mathematics used as proofs
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14:02:29 <geekosaur> I don't think there's a lot of math involved, just standard compiler demand analysis
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14:03:08 <geekosaur> I think there's a -d dump flag to show ghc's analysis
14:06:00 <merijn> lxsameer: The STG paper is a bit dated (in that a bunch of things that it desribes are no longer done), but it's very enlightening
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14:13:29 <__monty__> merijn: That was an extraneous `'t`, right?
14:20:29 <merijn> __monty__: Probably, I'm operating on, like, 4 hours of sleep due to a cold. So anything that's remotely parseable as english counts as exceeds expectations
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14:34:43 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> One thing I have been wondering about for ages: Why is there a "let" in do notation. Couldn"t we just do "a <- _; b = _; c = _; d <- _;`?
14:35:03 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> * Couldn’t we just do "a <- _; b = _; c = _; d <- _;"?
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14:47:20 <merijn> maralorn: and implicitly wrap _ with "return" you mean?
14:47:58 <tomsmeding> merijn: I think they mean just drop the `let` from the syntax, the resulting grammar is unambiguous anyway
14:48:30 <geekosaur> ^
14:48:53 <geekosaur> right now you get a parse error if you write `x = foo` in a `do` block without the `let`
14:49:10 <tomsmeding> humans like redundancy, though, and it's sometimes kind of relevant which lines do something monadic and which ones don't
14:49:16 <geekosaur> I _thiiiink_, however, the point is to catch a common-ish thinko
14:49:33 <tomsmeding> but it's definitely not clear-cut, there's plenty other cases in haskell where there's a lot of semantic difference in a single character
14:50:07 <tomsmeding> maralorn: the `let` syntax allows you to define a mutually-recursive block of bindings
14:50:23 <geekosaur> (I mean, I made that mistake the other day because I was trying to crank out code quickly and without much thought)
14:50:31 <tomsmeding> doing that implicitly with adjacent unmarked '=' lines would be awkward
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14:52:25 <briandaed> maralorn: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23452343/stripping-out-let-in-haskell , first and second answer
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14:55:57 <haskellbridge> <maralorn> I feel like that so question misses my point. I am not against bindings as a construct it just always irks me that we need the keyword to do it.
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14:56:06 <tomsmeding> briandaed: that's about removing the syntactic constructinside regular expressions
14:56:23 <tomsmeding> maralorn was about changing the grammar without changing the abstract syntax for do-blocks specifically
14:59:16 <briandaed> oh my bad, I misunderstood
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15:02:03 <KicksonButt> How do you call the "()" as in "IO ()"? If you have to read it out loud
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15:02:42 <tomsmeding> "unit"
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15:03:48 <KicksonButt> Thanks
15:04:26 <mreh> technically a stack question, but what do I need to do to get stack to recognise changes in a local `extra-deps` package?
15:05:16 <mreh> I have to stack purge quite often, sometimes `stack build --file-watch` recognises the changes, but then it fails eventually
15:05:25 <tomsmeding> mreh: you don't, you add it to `packages:` instead
15:05:41 <tomsmeding> then it gets built in the local .stack-work too
15:06:19 <tomsmeding> stack also can't apply package flags to stuff in extra-deps
15:06:34 <mreh> oh really, that's poo
15:06:55 <mreh> so, if I've got this package in a different repo, I should symlink it?
15:07:08 <tomsmeding> `packages:` can refer to any directory on your disk though
15:07:12 <tomsmeding> you don't have to symlink it in
15:07:48 <mreh> oh, `packages:` in stack.yaml?
15:07:51 <tomsmeding> yes
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15:08:50 <tomsmeding> it's a bit of a hack because `packages:` is meant for the packages that you're developing together as part of one project
15:08:52 <tomsmeding> but it works
15:09:59 <mreh> yeah, one is a public package and the other is private, but their development is pretty closely linked
15:10:16 <mreh> it'll be *fine*
15:10:26 <tomsmeding> just don't accidentally commit the packages: line :)
15:10:50 <mreh> meh, I'll be the only one trying to build it
15:12:47 <mreh> flags are extremely useful, glfw-bindings likes to build GLFW3 from source by default
15:13:48 <briandaed> I would swear that that flags in stack.yaml were passed to package in extra-deps like crypton(ite) but maybe I'm wrong
15:14:05 <tomsmeding> they definitely weren't a few years ago; maybe it's been fixed in the meantime
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15:17:45 <BrokenClutch> i like haskell
15:18:01 <mreh> welcome to the party
15:19:12 <BrokenClutch> I was reading the FRP libraries
15:19:39 <BrokenClutch> do someone know what happened to esoyelemez, the creator of netwire?
15:20:24 <__monty__> BrokenClutch: He passed away sadly, https://blog.jle.im/entry/in-memory-of-ertugrul-soylemez.html
15:21:22 <__monty__> BrokenClutch: Highly recommend this blogpost of theirs to get a better understanding of folds BTW, https://ertes.eu/tutorial/foldr.html
15:21:29 <merijn> tomsmeding: stack did it, cabal dit not
15:21:29 <dpratt> figured it out finally glguy -- boy that kicked my butt!
15:23:14 <dpratt> I had a function that would look up a "file" by its "id", but it was pulling from the original file data, before any transformations -- ah, the pitfalls of pure FP 😆
15:23:24 <mreh> BrokenClutch: are you interested in FRP?
15:23:26 <tomsmeding> merijn: are you 100% sure?
15:23:34 <dpratt> this code is a mess, tho
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15:24:09 <merijn> tomsmeding: I'm 100% sure stack's config files let you pass flag to (transitive) dependencies and 100% sure that cabal does not let you (except via cabal.project)
15:24:44 <tomsmeding> merijn: well, stack.yaml corresponds to cabal.project, so allowing modifications to stack.yaml but not to cabal.project is unfair :p
15:25:14 <tomsmeding> package.yaml : stack.yaml :: thing.cabal : cabal.project, if you assume use of hpack
15:25:20 <BrokenClutch> __monty__: now I'm sad
15:25:31 <merijn> tomsmeding: Pretty sure package.yaml let you do it too
15:25:42 <BrokenClutch> mreh: a lot, probably the area I'm most interest in programming
15:25:46 <merijn> I just didn't bother ever knowing which yaml is what
15:26:06 <tomsmeding> merijn: how on earth would that work? package.yaml is just converted to a thing.cabal, and a .cabal file definitely cannot set flags on dependencies (let alone transitive ones)
15:26:34 <merijn> tomsmeding: Stack doesn't do dependency resolution via cabal at all
15:26:35 <geekosaur> actually I think it can, it's just very strongly disrecommended
15:27:16 <merijn> geekosaur: You cannot set dependency flags in .cabal unless that changed very recently (like, the last year or so)
15:27:31 <__monty__> BrokenClutch: Yeah : ( Hugs on offer though.
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15:27:45 <tomsmeding> I just very distinctly remember running into the fact that I could not set flags on extra-deps: packages in stack, and I had to put them in packages: instead
15:27:53 <tomsmeding> this was 2021
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15:28:05 <merijn> tomsmeding: You going to NL-FP?
15:28:22 <tomsmeding> probably, and unless the start time is going to move by 30mins I'll be late for the first talk
15:28:35 <merijn> Yeah, Leuven is so damn far away
15:28:48 <merijn> I'm considering just getting a hotel and turning it into a city trip with my girlfriend :p
15:28:53 <tomsmeding> I expect noone north of Utrecht will go
15:29:00 <tomsmeding> well or that
15:29:21 <merijn> No preliminary program yet, so I'm trying to figure out whether I should convince my boss to count it as "training & personal development" :p
15:30:16 <__monty__> Doesn't happen to be around FOSDEM, does it?
15:30:32 <merijn> No
15:30:46 <merijn> FOSDEM is February, NL-FP is (normally) first friday of the year
15:30:51 <merijn> Although not this year, it seems :p
15:30:55 <tomsmeding> second friday this time :)
15:32:27 <kuribas> What's in Leuven?
15:32:36 <merijn> kuribas: NL-FP, confusingly ;)
15:32:39 <tomsmeding> kuribas: https://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~tom.schrijvers/fpdag2025/
15:32:53 <kuribas> Just 20 mins from my work with the train :)
15:32:57 <tomsmeding> join!
15:33:01 <merijn> Although, I guess this is just more support for my controversial political platform to reannex Flanders
15:33:09 <kuribas> tomsmeding: yeah :)
15:33:16 <tomsmeding> it's usually up in NL
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15:34:10 <merijn> But yeah, it's nice
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15:46:29 <kuribas> I registered :)
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16:44:23 <hellwolf> {-# ANN EvalData "HLint: ignore Use newtype instead of data" #-}
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16:45:11 <hellwolf> But somehow, something warns me that I should use it for top-level bindings
16:45:18 <hellwolf> for example its only constructor
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16:46:00 <hellwolf> bizarre
16:46:16 <hellwolf> hlint is happy with it, but not that something else. is it HLS.
16:46:34 <hellwolf> oh, ghc also complains.
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16:52:51 <hellwolf> and I really can't find any documentation from GHC about "{-# ANN"
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16:54:21 <hellwolf> what I have is:
16:54:21 <hellwolf> data EvalData = MkEvalData { store_map :: M.Map ADDR WORD
16:54:21 <hellwolf> }
16:55:17 <glguy> dpratt: My AoC solution template file starts with a line that reads and then prints out the output so I can feel like I'm starting from the right place for that reason
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17:17:16 <BrokenClutch> is Keera Studio just Ivan Perez?
17:17:43 <mari-estel> pretty much
17:20:27 <BrokenClutch> most of the FRP libraries is just a one guy's dream?
17:20:44 <BrokenClutch> why? do people implement their own stuff?
17:21:22 <mari-estel> also the several attempts to write libs for mobile are mainly one person's initiative, unfortunately
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17:22:08 <mari-estel> ivan featured in an episode of the haskell interlude, explaining why his research is meaningful. For instance, for NASA
17:23:07 <mari-estel> ... there is a zoo of different functional reactive libs for haskell, by the way
17:23:14 <BrokenClutch> I saw it
17:23:28 <EvanR> FRP zoo
17:23:39 <zzz> what's the point of having a cabal.project separated from a *.cabal file?
17:23:53 <BrokenClutch> zzz: you can put fun stuff there
17:23:57 <BrokenClutch> like optimization flags
17:24:20 <BrokenClutch> I think profiling flags can go there too
17:24:34 <dolio> Project files can involve multiple packages.
17:25:00 <mari-estel> the project file is the only way to have a local dependency as far as i know
17:25:02 <sclv> a .cabal file describes a redistributable package -- a .project file contains settings not only for multiple packages and how they interact, but also flags that are not about the package itself, but about the specific building process
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17:25:26 <BrokenClutch> The way I understood was: .cabal file say what your project is and cabal.project is how you are going to build it
17:25:33 <sclv> yeah thats pretty clean!
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17:26:51 <BrokenClutch> I think that maybe FRP isn't popular enough
17:26:56 <BrokenClutch> which is sad
17:27:17 <mari-estel> hm i gather a zoo is not enough for you
17:27:38 <BrokenClutch> like, most of that stuff isn't maintained anymore
17:27:45 <BrokenClutch> or it was just a one-person project
17:28:05 <BrokenClutch> it's enough to me because I just want to study it
17:29:11 <mari-estel> well consider that non-strict eval provides several of the advantages one could get from functional reactive already. Also, personally i used fun reactive only when i had to write complex interactive code, and that is not a common domain for haskell
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17:34:53 <BrokenClutch> It's was very hard to me. Unerstanding all this FRP stuff took too much time, I don't think people would want to do that. Maybe that's a problem, don't know.
17:35:41 <BrokenClutch> I like reactivity because it's fun, wish I could implement some kind of reactivity. I'm trying to read the source code of those libraries but I'm not getting far (obviously).
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18:16:22 <BrokenClutch> mari-estel: what's your favorite FRP lib?
18:16:26 <BrokenClutch> mine is Yampa
18:17:52 <monochrom> Reading library source code first may be the bad idea.
18:21:54 <monochrom> It works for libraries that merely capture repetitive idioms and chores. For example, foldl, foldr, take, map, id, ($).
18:22:52 <monochrom> But it totally backfires for real abstractions, e.g., pipes and conduits, FRP, even FIFO queues.
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18:25:39 <monochrom> For those, you learn the externally observable behaviour, aka user-facing use case stories. You don't actually want to know how such magical outcome can be achieved by all kinds of advanced techniques, tricks, and optimizations.
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18:36:59 <BrokenClutch> monochrom: How should I learn it?
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18:38:17 <monochrom> For an extreme case, even in C, consider https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57650895/why-does-glibcs-strlen-need-to-be-so-complicated-to-run-quickly/57676035 . If no one told you "this is strlen()", good luck reverse-engineering what is the purpose of the highly contrived code and what it means for the user.
18:39:06 <monochrom> How did you learn FIFO queues? It's the same.
18:42:21 <monochrom> Someone told you a user-facing story, a mental model, maybe in the form of a "naïve" implementation. An API and how you use it and what happens when you do.
18:44:21 <monochrom> No one actually expects the actual library code looks anything like the "naïve" model. It is expected to be hand-optimized beyond recognition, such that reading it (without knowing that the high level goal is merely FIFO) is missing the forest for the trees.
18:44:47 <monochrom> Hell, you can't even learn strlen() by reading its glibc code.
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19:39:49 <geekosaur> bouncing the bridge briefly
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20:14:11 <BrokenClutch> monochrom: So how should I learn how to implement something?
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20:18:56 <monochrom> That was not what I was addressing. I was only addressing how to learn to use FRP or any abstraction or any API. I am not interested right now in changing subject to how to learn to implement.
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20:24:53 <BrokenClutch> monochrom: ok, thanks
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21:00:21 <sprotte24> hi
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21:02:13 <sprotte24> my haskell getCahr buffer problem persits.
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21:04:16 <sprotte24> bing Copilot (AI) helpted me, about 20 tries. But not one try solved the problem using without enter key
21:05:19 <glguy> To getChar without enter you have to turn off buffering in stdin
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21:07:02 <glguy> LLMs are only really useful if you already know enough to recognize the right answer
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21:07:19 <glguy> Or for asking questions that don't have right answers
21:09:16 <OftenFaded> so far*
21:09:36 <OftenFaded> claude is getting better i think
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21:10:46 <monochrom> This again? Haven't we concluded that you should go to office hours and consult your instructor because only they know the actual testing environment and what it expects?
21:12:36 <sprotte24> gi, many tries, e.g. import System.IO (hSetEcho, hSetBuffering, BufferMode(NoBuffering), stdin, stdout, getChar
21:13:18 <sprotte24> or: cabal install haskeline
21:14:06 <sprotte24> cabal cabal uodate
21:14:14 <sprotte24> hflush ...
21:14:25 <glguy> It's just hSetBuffering stdin NoBuffering
21:14:26 <sprotte24> none works
21:14:28 <glguy> none of the rest of that
21:14:46 <glguy> If that doesn't work for you something is unique about your environment and you'll need to debug that
21:15:20 <int-e> <3 black box debugging over low-bandwidth, lossy channels.
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21:16:12 <monochrom> Oh it gets better. Black box debugging over low-bandwidth lossy channel, and the other end of the channel is not even the black box.
21:16:21 <sprotte24> Parse error: module header, import declaration
21:16:21 <sprotte24> or top-level declaration expected.
21:16:41 <monochrom> In fact s/lossy/lousy/ works too.
21:16:41 <int-e> monochrom: that's included in the channel model :P
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21:16:48 <monochrom> Oh haha OK!
21:16:59 <probie> sprotte24: make it the first line in the do block for your `main`
21:17:26 <sprotte24> ok, let me try
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21:19:10 <sprotte24> in main do block works, compiles.
21:19:26 <sprotte24> but waits for enter
21:20:05 <sprotte24> collects all characters and remembers them when keying enter
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21:23:53 <probie> If you've done `hSetBuffer stdin NoBuffering` and that still happens, something else is going on. Are you running a compiled program, or from within GHCi and what console/terminal emulator are you using?
21:26:05 <int-e> "The code ist[sic!] tested automatically." -- I believe this is why monochrom is so adamant about contacting the instructor. Because presumably they know how this is tested, and you don't, and we certainly don't. And it's quite possible that the test setup is broken!
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21:27:10 <monochrom> You don't even know that anything you're doing right now is relevant to the testing environment at all.
21:27:12 <int-e> I also don't think that you've shared any code so obviously that can be wrong too, as far as we know.
21:27:14 <glguy> int-e: I don't think you have to [sic] German words
21:27:25 <int-e> glguy: :-P
21:28:36 <int-e> It felt like an appropriate channel for a bit of frustration.
21:29:03 <monochrom> If the test is not done by a human in front of a screen and keyboard, why are you even coding this for human comfort?
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21:33:54 <sprotte24> probie, I am using VSC and Terminal
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22:42:48 <comonad> sprotte24: hi, arch linux user here. i typed ghci and then getChar in my kitty terminal, getChar did not wait for enter. utf8 works too: ł'\322'
22:44:18 <OftenFaded> forgot the 'btw'
22:44:51 <comonad> sprotte24: might it be, that there is a line buffering program between your terminal and your haskell program?
22:45:03 <comonad> OftenFaded: thx, btw.
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23:08:25 <r-sta> so i just finished this convolutional extension to some kind of versioning system
23:08:37 <r-sta> well, kind of
23:08:44 <r-sta> its a case of "if it compiles ship it"
23:09:03 <r-sta> since i had been wresteling with a non-terminating superclass recursion... :-/
23:09:30 <r-sta> at this point, id move on to other parts of the project, but it feels kinda rough to leave it untested
23:09:41 <r-sta> ill put the code, hang on
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23:19:15 <Axman6> I haven't looked too closely at your work r-sta but it does remind me of grenade (and jle`'s excellent posts which basically recreate it)
23:19:45 <r-sta> Axman6: https://github.com/munston/store
23:19:53 <r-sta> jle did some stuff like this too
23:20:04 <r-sta> sometimes the type level stuff leads to a strange interface though
23:20:15 <r-sta> so im not using it eg for the lengths of the input output vectors of the samplers
23:20:35 <r-sta> its only featuring here so that i can get the type level persistent direction of the path for the store
23:21:12 <r-sta> its always a risk to try to do anything at type level, but i needed to be able to resolve the "name of the store" from the "type of the object"
23:21:24 <r-sta> i guess there was a workaround that didnt keep this
23:21:37 <r-sta> but i opted to just add a type level nat to the type of the object to help the compiler
23:22:12 <r-sta> ...
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23:22:40 <r-sta> in order to build the repo you also need to pull in this lib for the "parametric" class
23:22:40 <r-sta> https://github.com/munston/lib
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23:22:58 <r-sta> i was trying to get set up developing on cabal so all these dependencies would be automatic
23:23:25 <r-sta> my cabal project looks like this;
23:23:25 <r-sta> https://pastebin.com/raw/f69XRTWz
23:23:34 <Axman6> any reason now to do it all in one repo and use a cabal.project file?
23:23:35 <r-sta> there are ~ 200 .hs files !
23:23:39 <Axman6> s/now/not
23:23:43 <r-sta> see above
23:23:55 <r-sta> thats a reason not to!
23:24:06 <Axman6> D:
23:24:49 <r-sta> this doesnt even have the self learning stuff!
23:26:08 <r-sta> i guess if it were something i were releasing id actually keep the trading interface under wraps
23:26:36 <r-sta> its not really totally sane to release the AGI along with a monetization that you would benifit from being the sole user of!
23:26:55 <r-sta> maybe there is a use case that would benifit the comunity?
23:27:07 <r-sta> maybe some image or audio processing
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23:27:18 <r-sta> idk what would maybe be fun for students...
23:27:26 <r-sta> train your ....
23:27:46 <r-sta> ...
23:28:13 <r-sta> its quite interesting how all this AGI stuff ends up actually.
23:28:13 <r-sta> im using what could be considered to be an overregularized limit, which is actually nonparametric
23:28:29 <r-sta> there is a bunch of literature, but all it amounts to is local gradient discovery and line extension
23:28:35 <ncf> r-sta: #haskell-offtopic
23:28:56 <r-sta> no wonder haskell is deplored within ML
23:29:20 <Axman6> your implementation of Moc could be more efficient if you returned the first argument in the IfLt (S x) Z t f case - the first argument is (Subtract x y)
23:29:43 <r-sta> at compile time!?
23:29:56 <Axman6> yeah this is a lot of noise for thic channel, #haskell-offtopic would be better for the non-Haskell questions
23:29:57 <r-sta> yeah i got the GPT to write the type level stuff and didnt check the implementations, thanks
23:30:01 <Axman6> yes, compile times matter
23:30:12 <r-sta> ok! ill make that change, thanks for the catch
23:31:00 <Axman6> any reason not to use GHC's Nat type? all that code exists already
23:31:01 <r-sta> (i wont be using the offtopic channel unless someone is actually wanting to engage, otherwise ill just not write about it)
23:31:09 <r-sta> Axman6: yes, i hate it
23:31:18 <r-sta> im reluctant to use TypeLits also
23:31:28 <r-sta> you cant pattern match on classes properly
23:31:43 <r-sta> classes cant pattern match on GHC's inbuilt Nats properly*
23:31:48 <r-sta> iirc
23:32:14 <r-sta> i like to match on Z and ... n => (S n)
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23:33:27 <Axman6> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clash-prelude-1.8.1/docs/Clash-Sized-Vector.html does plenty of stuff like that. not sure what problems you're running into though
23:34:19 <r-sta> (the src of that doesnt even mention a class!)
23:35:23 <r-sta> i think basically i was running into some problems i didnt understand with the way KnownNat was opperating as a dictionary or something
23:35:40 <r-sta> i could never get it to work simply and encountered errors i did not know how to solve
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23:35:59 <r-sta> maybe its just the literal thinness of the Nat implementation, i know there is nothing im not aware what its doing
23:36:13 <r-sta> because the typechecker isnt so mature you need to know exactly what its up to
23:36:40 <r-sta> since the kind of errors it gives are like, just basically like runtime errors but at compile time, like nonterminating compilation
23:36:44 <r-sta> really difficult to debug
23:36:57 <r-sta> esp if you cant tell how the type level stuff your relying on works
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23:45:48 <Axman6> Clash also uses a plugin to solve Nat type level expressions which GHC can't, which might be helpful
23:46:36 <Axman6> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-typelits-natnormalise
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23:47:32 <Axman6> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/clash-ghc lists a few other deps for similar things
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23:49:44 <geekosaur> there's also https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/ghc-typelits-presburger among others
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23:50:52 <Axman6> "...use ghc-typelits-meta and/or ghc-typelits-presburger instead." confusing
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23:54:23 <Axman6> geekosaur: I'm not sure what that really offers - does it just help in the cases where obviously equal things involving Nats aren't obvious to GHC?
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23:57:29 <geekosaur> my impression is that natnormalise handles things like x + 1 - 1 which ghc needs help with, but presburger is a more general arithmetic solver
23:57:48 <geekosaur> (ghc really is weak when it comes to type level Nats)
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23:59:03 <geekosaur> (more precisely, I think natnormalise doesn't so much do arithmetic as add extra constraints so ghc can do it)
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