Logs on 2024-12-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:44:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Scanf sounds useful for AoC |
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| 03:08:46 | <glguy> | Bowuigi, have you seen my scanf-like AoC parsers? |
| 03:13:15 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scanf seems to fit, but something similar to Read is probably better for AoC |
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| 03:14:06 | <glguy> | Scanf on its own doesn't support looping and separators |
| 03:14:20 | <glguy> | So you need something more, which is why I made one |
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| 03:25:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yeah ReadP is better if you need complex stuff like that |
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| 03:27:05 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Scanf is meant to be used as the shell's "cut" or similar |
| 03:28:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> If you need something fast but not super complex, PEG parsing is a good option, or maybe regex-tdfa |
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| 03:32:06 | <glguy> | https://github.com/glguy/advent/blob/main/solutions/src/2024/19.hs#L41 |
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| 03:32:55 | <glguy> | that expands out to a ReadP parer |
| 03:32:59 | <glguy> | parser |
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| 04:16:13 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> That seems really useful, consider packaging it |
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| 07:53:17 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> I honestly didn't know ReadP is in base, and I definitely do not know many things from base, still... |
| 07:53:19 | <haskellbridge> | Something new to learn everyday |
| 07:54:36 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> but I guess it makes sense, since there is the read function. Is read function implemented by ReadP? |
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| 07:55:42 | <c_wraith> | I'd guess not usually. But it is very easy to convert a ReadP parser into a Read instance. |
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| 07:57:11 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1201.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.Text.Read.html#read |
| 07:57:36 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> import GHC.Internal.Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP as P |
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| 07:58:01 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> It is, then. |
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| 08:01:51 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> """ |
| 08:01:52 | <haskellbridge> | ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/MyaZusHWGTAXXdGjyliDCsmF/xaSK5q_6-aw (4 lines) |
| 08:02:01 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> what does it mean, should I use it or not. |
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| 08:03:07 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> "Using python is very inefficient, doing a large program may be quite slow." |
| 08:03:07 | <haskellbridge> | who needs that kind of disclaimer... |
| 08:03:18 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> ReadS is slow an innefficient, ReadP, not so much |
| 08:04:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> If you are very concerned about speed just use flatparse and call it a day, tho that's a bit extreme |
| 08:04:19 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> fair. |
| 08:04:19 | <haskellbridge> | I have skill issues. How do I use ReadP ;p |
| 08:04:54 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> the section of "Running a parser" shows me that disclaimer |
| 08:05:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yeah because ReadS is slow |
| 08:06:45 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> what's the alternative, I didn't find anything obvious what to do from that doc |
| 08:07:07 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Just don't use ReadS, use ReadP |
| 08:07:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Ah you mean for running it? |
| 08:08:03 | <mauke> | This is the main way in which you can "run" a ReadP parser |
| 08:08:14 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> You just use the readP_to_S function yeah |
| 08:08:18 | <mauke> | the point is to only do it once, at the top level |
| 08:08:28 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> okay, fwiw read function uses ReadP_to_S |
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| 08:09:13 | <mauke> | ... because if you go the other way and start embedding ReadS in your ReadP's via readS_to_P: "Warning: This introduces local backtracking in the resulting parser, and therefore a possible inefficiency." |
| 08:09:48 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> well, yea, I can just look at ReadP... need to run it. |
| 08:09:48 | <haskellbridge> | That's why my rant against that unclear disclaimer. It reads like, don't do it, but you don't have other ways of doing it, anyway. |
| 08:10:02 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> *I cannot |
| 08:10:30 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Standard laziness advices also applies because it returns a list |
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| 08:11:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Btw the most convenient way to read numbers and stuff is using "readPrec_to_P readPrec 0" |
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| 08:14:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> You can read anything with a Read instance efficiently since you don't leave the context |
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| 08:37:13 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> Bowuigi: this is interesting |
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| 08:37:36 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> would be happier if no TH QQ is required |
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| 10:39:18 | <bwe> | how can I evaluate a doctest from my editor like https://www.youtube.com/live/KkKxHApYSfc?feature=shared&t=1208 ? |
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| 10:39:46 | <alecs> | bwe: It's a feature of HLS |
| 10:40:12 | <bwe> | feature or plugin? https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/features.html |
| 10:41:22 | <alecs> | I have it and I haven't installed any plugin |
| 10:42:01 | <tomsmeding> | it's a default-enabled HLS plugin iirc |
| 10:42:01 | <bwe> | so what do you do to use it? I have helix-editor over here. |
| 10:42:50 | <tomsmeding> | bwe: it's a _code lens_, not a code action |
| 10:43:01 | <tomsmeding> | does helix support code lensees? |
| 10:45:58 | <bwe> | apparently not: https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/issues/7957#issuecomment-2127778596 |
| 10:47:04 | <tomsmeding> | (neovim also didn't, for a while, but it does now) |
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| 12:24:03 | <bwe> | GHC.Internal.Event.Thread.getSystemTimerManager: the TimerManager requires linking against the threaded runtime -- https://paste.tomsmeding.com/90RW2oVS -- what does this error on `cabal run <my_bin>` mean? what do I need to do? |
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| 12:24:48 | <tomsmeding> | bwe: put 'ghc-options: -threaded' in your cabal file |
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| 12:31:47 | <bwe> | tomsmeding: thanks, finally worked after `cabal clean` and rerun of `cabal run …` |
| 12:32:01 | <tomsmeding> | that's surprising -- some caching not working there |
| 12:32:45 | <int-e> | doesn't cabal rely on ghc's recompilation check for that, and that doesn't check link flag changes? |
| 12:33:13 | <int-e> | (basically can't; there's no .hi file equivalent for executables where that information could be tracked) |
| 12:33:20 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tWTmRFBz |
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| 12:33:36 | <int-e> | huh |
| 12:33:39 | <tomsmeding> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| 12:46:04 | <int-e> | Well what I said is still half correct... this only works with ELF executables, where GHC sticks in a .debug-ghc-link-info section |
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| 12:47:30 | <int-e> | note the comment surrounding that logic: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/compiler/GHC/Linker/ExtraObj.hs#L222-224 |
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| 12:52:57 | <int-e> | Anyway this linker flag check has only been in GHC for 13 years. |
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| 13:21:54 | <tomsmeding> | "only" :) |
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| 15:12:14 | <hellwolf> | why does https://github.com/haskell/array/pull/11/files say the SPECIALIZE does not do anything? |
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| 15:19:36 | <Leary> | hellwolf: The tyvar it specialises is not sufficient to resolve any instances, so no type class dictionaries can be inlined; there are no gains to be had. |
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| 15:49:53 | <hellwolf> | thanks.because there is no instance of "IArray UArray e" |
| 15:50:21 | <zzz> | i forget... wasn't there a function `takeDrop` that returned take n and drop n in a single pass? |
| 15:50:46 | <hellwolf> | "and starting with GHC 9.14 (with GHC MR !12319) will cause a warning to be emitted. " |
| 15:50:51 | <merijn> | zzz: Yeah, probably something like partition |
| 15:50:53 | <merijn> | :t partition |
| 15:51:16 | <merijn> | @botsnack |
| 15:51:19 | <Rembane> | :t splitAt -- zzz is quite good for that. span and break are also great, but for takeWhile/dropWhile |
| 15:51:19 | <lambdabot> | :) |
| 15:51:20 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a]) |
| 15:51:21 | <lambdabot> | Int -> [a] -> ([a], [a]) |
| 15:51:27 | <merijn> | there we go |
| 15:51:37 | <Rembane> | lambdabot goes ketchupbot |
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| 15:53:57 | <zzz> | Rembane: that was it. thanks! |
| 15:54:04 | <Rembane> | zzz: No worries! |
| 15:54:29 | <zzz> | i've been doing a little scheme and must have had take/drop in my mind |
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| 16:26:02 | <hellwolf> | is there Text version of ShowS, where it is Text -> Text ? Or Text itself is efficient no matter how you concat anyways? |
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| 16:29:38 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> The text builders do that, most importantly, blaze-builder |
| 16:29:49 | <hellwolf> | > showHex (3540846713943345059221743318723185196453169490078830062538796362909158578585 :: Integer) "" |
| 16:29:51 | <geekosaur> | Text is an array vs. a linked list, so it's much better in general. the builders do the rest |
| 16:30:05 | <geekosaur> | the ShowS trick is specific to linked lists |
| 16:30:07 | <lambdabot> | "7d40c5819999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999" |
| 16:30:27 | <hellwolf> | I think showHex has limitation on the range, but it is not mentioned in its docs. |
| 16:30:37 | <geekosaur> | (well, one could probably come up with something for other types, but it's a difference list ) |
| 16:30:58 | <hellwolf> | geekosaur, makes sense, as I suspected, after a few moments of thoughts. |
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| 16:32:08 | <hellwolf> | hmm, no, actually it is correct conversion |
| 16:32:23 | <hellwolf> | that 9999... is actually correct :D, pardon me. |
| 16:36:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> geekosaur the "difference list trick" actually works for all monoids and is in general called "the Cayley monoid of ..." |
| 16:36:50 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> And since it works for all monoids, it works for every group, ring (in two ways), field, etc |
| 16:37:03 | <geekosaur> | sounds like "probably come up with something" to me 🙂 I was vaguely suspecting there was a generalization while writing on the fly |
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| 16:39:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Yeah, the list version is the most known, but if your monoid has a slow mappend on one side consider doing it |
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| 18:00:37 | <tomsmeding> | It seems injectivity of type families does not extend to deducing equalities https://play.haskell.org/saved/6KWWiCT0 |
| 18:00:53 | <tomsmeding> | Am I missing something? It seems reasonable to expect this to compile |
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| 18:07:29 | <probie> | Perhaps it was an oversight, or perhaps it was too hard to implement. |
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| 18:07:56 | <ncf> | tomsmeding: seems like a known issue https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/10833 |
| 18:11:26 | <tomsmeding> | Thanks ncf! |
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| 18:12:39 | <tomsmeding> | That was a more interesting reason than I expected :) |
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| 18:21:07 | <monochrom> | It's also an interesting difference in cultures. We are like "I can't prove it so the compiler won't assume it". Other language communities are like "it's intuitively true so the compiler should assume it". |
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| 18:30:39 | <ash3en> | question of the day: is processing UDP packets using network, attoparsec and cereal comparable to C speed for the same task since all three are either specialised or are just bindings for C libraries anyway? |
| 18:30:58 | <ash3en> | or is haskell the wrong tool if latency is a concern? |
| 18:34:09 | <[exa]> | ash3en: gc pauses aren't a huge deal anymore if you aren't leaking a yuge ton of memory (which you generally don't have to unless you plug in something really insensitive into processing of each packet) |
| 18:34:41 | <[exa]> | what is the target applicat |
| 18:34:51 | <geekosaur> | network should be C speed, you may prefer flatparse to attoparsec for speed-over-error-handling, cereal should be fine. more significant is you probably want the nonmoving GC (+RTS --nonmoving-gc) for lower latency |
| 18:35:34 | <[exa]> | ...ion? I'd say unless your bottleneck is in data moves you should be OK. |
| 18:36:49 | <ash3en> | thanks [exa]. the use case is simple reordering or normalizing/process values of the incoming messages into new outgoing messages. OSC to be specific. I want to reorder continouous 3D movement data to overcome differences in the protocols address patterns and value ranges |
| 18:37:04 | <[exa]> | how many t |
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| 18:37:19 | <[exa]> | (omg whats the issue with this client?!) |
| 18:37:36 | <[exa]> | ...how many thousands of packets per second do you expect? |
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| 18:39:17 | <ash3en> | i'm not sure...multiple sensors and oscillating values |
| 18:41:46 | <[exa]> | anyway from the SE perspective, I'd say that Haskell is good as a prototyping choice here. You won't spend years by catching stupid errors, you have concurrent polling for free, and it's gonna be quite fast up until the point where you'll be exactly sure about the structure and bottlenecks, and reimplementation in C++ or so will be straightforward by then. |
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| 18:42:14 | <[exa]> | spoiler: 99% chance it stays in haskell. :D |
| 18:42:53 | <ash3en> | lets say 100 continouous curves sending every 20ms each, another 100 at 60fps.. |
| 18:43:02 | <ash3en> | :D i hope it stays! |
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| 18:43:36 | <ash3en> | im bad at math lol |
| 18:43:58 | <ash3en> | how many k per second is this? ms * 1000 to second? |
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| 18:54:41 | <hellwolf> | tomsmeding: I don't follow your example, with injectivity, what kind of useful Bar do you want to define, can you make a few more instances of the type family? e.g. https://play.haskell.org/saved/mfEuK6An this doesn't compile. |
| 18:55:41 | <[exa]> | ash3en: sounds like 11k per second to me, that might require some care to run smoothly but I assume you can run multiple instances of the same to split the load, right? |
| 18:57:28 | <[exa]> | how big are the packets? if it's just some ID and a few values I'd say you're pretty much fine |
| 18:58:21 | <[exa]> | actually re-emitting the packets at this rate might be a much harder problem than receiving them |
| 18:58:41 | <ash3en> | mostly simple messages like yes, an ID and probably 12 values max. |
| 18:59:04 | <ash3en> | for reordering packages I thought I just switch the bytes using attoparsec without decoding, if that makes sense |
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| 18:59:50 | <[exa]> | by reordering you don't mean changing the temporal order of the packets arriving, right? |
| 18:59:53 | <ash3en> | 11k is probably aimed too high too. and not all packages are of interest for everyone. |
| 19:00:11 | <ash3en> | ah, not the order of the packages but of the values the package holds itself, sorry for being too vague |
| 19:00:47 | <ash3en> | like '/test 1 2 3' should become '/ok 3 1 2' |
| 19:00:50 | <[exa]> | ah np. At that point a simple raw pointerish peek/poke might be best. |
| 19:02:23 | <[exa]> | anyway the usual worst source of overhead in network apps is just copying&moving the data ar |
| 19:03:02 | <[exa]> | ...ound between buffers. Might be useful to check the possibilities to avoid data movement. Foreign ptrs etc. |
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| 19:04:21 | <[exa]> | (the other usual source is failure to efficiently poll the writeability of sockets) |
| 19:05:39 | <ash3en> | puh, peek/poke seems dangerous if not handled correctly. and i don't have experience with manual memory management |
| 19:07:19 | <[exa]> | ok well then ignore it for now :) |
| 19:07:43 | <ash3en> | hah :D but many thanks! really helped me |
| 19:07:55 | <ash3en> | I do know my options better now |
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| 22:16:41 | <ski> | hellwolf : your `Bar' is *not* injective ! (`foo @String @Int' would give you a `String :~: Int', which obviously breaks type safety) |
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| 22:18:54 | <ski> | (er, sorry the bad example (misread the family definition) would be `foo @String @Bool', gicing `String :~: Bool', which would break type safety) |
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| 22:19:35 | <ski> | (injective means that distinct inputs give distinct outputs. inputs `String' and `Bool' are distinct, but corresponding outputs `Bar String' (which is `Int') and `Bar Bool' (which is also `Int') are not distinct. hence that `Bar' is not injective) |
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| 23:18:26 | <jle`> | has anyone noticed that the Quick Jump on haddocks hasn't seem to worked for like a year or something |
| 23:18:35 | <jle`> | on hackage |
| 23:19:59 | <jackdk> | For some strange reason, it continues to work once you're inside a module's documentation. |
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| 23:21:51 | <glguy> | jle`: I find it doesn't work on packages that haven't been updated |
| 23:22:01 | <glguy> | but otherwise I use it whenever I'm on hackage |
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| 23:26:49 | <jle`> | oh i didn't even realize you could access it from module documentation |
| 23:27:03 | <jle`> | that's a nice workaround at least |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-12-20.