Logs on 2024-12-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:54	<hellwolf>	fmap fromJust (filter isJust (fmap ifunc_name sfns)) <-- can it be simplified
00:02:40	<jackdk>	:t Data.Maybe.mapMaybe -- generalised by package `witherable`
00:02:41	<lambdabot>	(a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
00:02:45	<Leary>	hellwolf: `mapMaybe ifunc_name sfns`? Even if `mapMaybe` didn't exist, you should invent it before you throw `fromJust` at your problem.
00:03:33	<probie>	:t \ifunc_name sfns -> [x \| Just x <- map ifunc_name sfns]
00:03:40	<lambdabot>	(a1 -> Maybe a2) -> [a1] -> [a2]
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00:04:37	<hellwolf>	catMaybes
00:04:38	<probie>	> let halfEven x = if even x then Just (x `div` 2) else Nothing in [x \| Just x <- map halfEven [1..10]]
00:04:39	<hellwolf>	:t catMaybes
00:04:41	<lambdabot>	[1,2,3,4,5]
00:04:41	<lambdabot>	[Maybe a] -> [a]
00:04:54	<hellwolf>	that's the one
00:05:49	<probie>	> let halfEven x = if even x then Just (x `div` 2) else Nothing in catMaybes (map halfEven [1..10])
00:05:50	<lambdabot>	[1,2,3,4,5]
00:07:19	<jackdk>	fromJust is way less useful than it seems, once you get used to using Functor/Applicative and sometimes Monad operations over Maybes.
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00:46:55	<jle`>	yeah the "point" of Maybe is that you don't have to use fromJust, you would always be able to pattern match
00:48:46	<monochrom>	@quote monochrom safeFromJust
00:48:47	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: I use safeFromJust :: Maybe a -> Maybe a
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00:49:19	<jle`>	safeHead . maybeToList
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00:52:27	<hellwolf>	project_preamble_template :: T.Text
00:52:27	<hellwolf>	project_preamble_template = [fmt'\|
00:52:27	<hellwolf>	#include "../../../templates/Preamble.sol"
00:52:27	<hellwolf>	\|]
00:52:44	<hellwolf>	I use CPP extension, but it filters out all my "/* comments */" in the included file
00:52:49	<hellwolf>	sad
00:54:10	<geekosaur>	mm, I thought the way we invoke cpp disables that because it's inapplicable to Haskell code. clang, perhaps?
00:54:40	<ski>	> (\f xs -> [y \| my <- map f xs,y <- maybeToList my]) (\n -> guard (even n) >> Just (n `div` 2)) [0,1,2,3,4]
00:54:41	<hellwolf>	maybe I am using it in a inconventional way
00:54:42	<lambdabot>	[0,1,2]
00:54:45	<ski>	@type \f xs -> [y \| my <- map f xs,y <- maybeToList my]
00:54:46	<lambdabot>	(a1 -> Maybe a2) -> [a1] -> [a2]
00:55:06	<geekosaur>	if you're using it the default way, it strips comments
00:55:16	<hellwolf>	I include a chunk of file into a QQ.
00:55:30	<hellwolf>	actually I would like it to keep the comments
00:55:42	<geekosaur>	if you're using it as ghc configures it via the CPP extension and you're not on a Mac, it should use `-traditional` and disable comment stripping
00:55:46	<hellwolf>	what is my alternative, that can include such a template file in a distribution.
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00:55:59	<hellwolf>	oh? how to enable -traditional
00:56:08	<geekosaur>	if you're on a Mac, you're getting clang instead of gcc and your cpp will strip things and can't be told not to
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00:56:24	<geekosaur>	gcc -E -traditional
00:56:29	<hellwolf>	platform dependent... hmm, better not
00:56:53	<hellwolf>	alternative is that I should not use CPP, but create QQ in a normal hs file
00:56:59	<hellwolf>	I think I should do that
00:57:06	<hellwolf>	this CPP usage is too weird.
00:57:16	<hellwolf>	probably will bring distribution problem later.
00:57:23	<hellwolf>	(need to set Cabal extra files)
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01:03:54	<monochrom>	I'm also very naughty and known to say:
01:04:01	<monochrom>	@quote monochrom unsafeCoerce
01:04:01	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: isTrue = (unsafeCoerce :: Either a b -> Bool) . (unsafeCoerce :: Maybe c -> Either a b) . (unsafeCoerce :: Bool -> Maybe c)
01:04:05	<monochrom>	>:)
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01:08:49	<jle`>	monochrom: hm, why do you need all three?
01:10:17	<monochrom>	To flex. >:)
01:11:21	<monochrom>	The chain enjoys round-trip pointer tagging invariance. >:)
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01:13:37	<jle`>	ah of course
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01:19:15	<geekosaur>	hellwolf, there is also the possibility of a build-depends: cpphs, but I would avoid cpp's cursedness if possible
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04:28:15	<orangeflu>	hello, i am losing my mind
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04:30:21	<orangeflu>	what i'm about to ask may be more of a ghc question than anything else, so feel free to point me in the right direction if this is not the place. i have a cabal app, in it there used to be a big file (like 2000 files long). Being a responsible programmer, i split it up into multiple files. Since then, the performance of my app degraded considerably, even with -O2
04:30:38	<orangeflu>	is there a way of fixing this without moving everything again in one file?
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04:33:46	<Leary>	orangeflu: Presumably the issue is a lack of cross-module inlining and specialisation. You can rectify it with manual use of `INLINE`/`INLINABLE`/`SPECIALISE` pragmata, or with flags such as `-fexpose-overloaded-unfoldings`.
04:35:32	<orangeflu>	i tried -fexpose-overloaded-unfoldings, and it doesn't seem to make a difference. As for INLINE/INLINEABLE, i did happen upon those pragmas in the docs, but it seems i have to put them for every function in my files.. which there are hundreds of. Surely there's a better way
04:36:31	<orangeflu>	Correction, this is the flag i tried: -fexpose-all-unfoldings
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04:39:26	<Leary>	orangeflu: It's strange for that not to have an effect. Perhaps you also need `-fspecialise-aggressively`.
04:41:27	<orangeflu>	I am going to try with that one too. Until it compiles, just to be sure, where do i need to put those flags? I put them in ghc-options in my library component, should i put them in ghc-options for the executable as well?
04:41:57	<Leary>	Probably.
04:42:50	<Leary>	These flags are big hammers though, so while it's more tedious, you can get better results by identifying which exact functions want which pragmata.
04:45:12	<orangeflu>	Well, they don't seem to be making a difference either way unfortunately
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04:45:18	<orangeflu>	No change in behaviour
04:45:29	<orangeflu>	My program still eats 10 GB of RAM casually
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04:55:08	<orangeflu>	Fuck it, i'm going to put the file back together and then remove groups of functions until i find the culprits, and that will be that
04:55:25	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Did you have to refactor some functions in order to split the file? Losing sharing on a big data structure can cause those problems
04:57:38	<Leary>	Cross-module optimisation issues often have a big effect on time costs, but I haven't seen them ruin space usage before. I don't have enough information or expertise to say what the issue is, but if you can share the source then someone may be able to help.
04:59:36	<orangeflu>	Bowuigi: no, I didn't refactor anything. The code is exactly the same before and after
05:00:25	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Any large globals mentioned in one module and used in another?
05:00:34	<orangeflu>	Leary: I mean, it does both. Things that used to take 100ms now take minutes, and instead f using neglijable RAM, it takes all of it
05:01:11	<orangeflu>	Bowuigi: define globals please, not sure what you are reffering to
05:01:34	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Maybe strictness analysis made something too lazy? Looking at the core of a file so large seems annoying though
05:01:49	<Leary>	Sure sounds like you lost streaming somewhere.
05:02:07	<orangeflu>	I can give you the source if it helps
05:02:23	<orangeflu>	https://github.com/Flu/avr-emulator
05:02:32	<orangeflu>	the file in question is src/Emulator.hs
05:02:38	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> "Large globals" as in variables that are not functions, but very large values
05:03:10	<orangeflu>	I don't think i have any global variables
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05:04:39	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> You don't, just checked
05:06:16	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> The only "large" stuff I can see is the memory and the Instruction enum (not too large tho, its representation should be fairly small)
05:06:32	<orangeflu>	like, i have a program loop (runProgram function, bottom of file). I know that it may be responsible because the program only starts taking up a lot of space when i have long assemb;y files, that do a lot of jumps and continue for many cycles
05:07:11	<orangeflu>	if i do something like 'JMP -1' it starts taking a lot of space when emulating that
05:08:13	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oh you have a list of instructions
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05:08:46	<orangeflu>	yeah, the "program" is [Instruction]
05:09:24	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> So it's either losing streaming on the instruction list (which is likely very large because it's a whole program) or losing sharing (or similar) in memory
05:11:03	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> You also seem to be evaluating the entire spine of the instructions list on every iteration of runProgram, unless GHC optimizes that
05:11:48	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Hmmm try switching from an instruction list to an instruction array
05:11:53	<Leary>	It's probably best to investigate with profiling, but I've never done much of that myself. Personally, I'd strictify `go` and your custom data types first.
05:12:05	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> You are treating it like one as far as I can see
05:12:18	<Leary>	And yeah, either an array or a list zipper for the instructions.
05:12:36	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Profiling is crucial here indeed
05:13:07	<orangeflu>	that's just it though, the instruction list doesn't have to be very big, it could just be [(ADD R1, R1), (JMP -1)], thus looping endlessly
05:13:20	<orangeflu>	and it would still cause this problem
05:13:27	<orangeflu>	i am going to try profiling
05:14:21	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oh then it's probably the memory, but yeah profiling will show the true cause
05:14:40	<orangeflu>	Also, the split-up version is on branch 'feature/18-add-step-by-step-emulation'
05:18:17	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oh you didn't separate the functions from each instruction, I thought that was the main idea
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05:19:21	<orangeflu>	What do you mean
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05:36:46	<orangeflu>	for whatever reason, the --enable-profiling flag has made ghc just hang..
05:36:50	<orangeflu>	i am so done
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05:37:26	<orangeflu>	I am going to try and replace the list with an array and see what happens then
05:37:43	<orangeflu>	if that doesn't work, i am reverting back to the old way
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05:44:53	<orangeflu>	Bowuigi: converted to array, still same behaviour
05:47:15	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Hmmm, so it wasn't that
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05:49:25	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Every way of checking will take some time because it involves either checking Core or comparing the results of strictness analysis (the easiest way to do this for datatypes is deriving generic and using the "from" function on them IIRC)
05:51:00	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> If it is the memory not being shared/streamed or something like that, trying to isolate it on a function level won't help much
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05:52:35	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Also does the problem persist if you enable Strict mode? It doesn't make everything strict but it may minimize the memory issue if it has to do with strictness
05:52:47	<orangeflu>	how do you enable strict mode
05:53:06	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> It's a language extension
05:53:57	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> So either {-# LANGUAGE Strict #-} or the equivalent in the Cabal/Stack file
05:54:58	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> It probably won't fix the issue entirely (no idea how does streaming interact with strictness analysis or if they are actually different on the two versions)
05:55:08	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> But it will give you a clue
05:55:14	<orangeflu>	So just put {-# LANGUAGE Strict #-} in all files that used to be part of Emulator.hs
05:55:17	<orangeflu>	?
05:55:41	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Yeah that should work
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05:57:32	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> If that doesn't work, just revert, unless someone else here has another idea
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05:59:07	<orangeflu>	hmm, that's the first time the behaviour changed
06:00:05	<orangeflu>	Like, if I run bubblesort.asm, it just prints 'avr-emulator: <<loop>>', which i have no idea what it means cause i am pretty sure i never programmed that behaviour, nor do i have any idea what it means
06:00:35	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oh that's a bit too strict lmao
06:01:04	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Enough to make GHC notice it loops forever
06:01:22	<orangeflu>	If i run test.asm, the one that ate all the RAM, now it doesn't, but it also doesn't seem to do anything? Like, it should have finished by now, but it doesn't seem to consume ANY resources
06:01:36	<orangeflu>	Yeah, but bubblesort.asm doesn't loop forever though
06:01:58	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21505192/haskell-program-outputs-loop#21554398
06:02:25	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> It probably loops with strictness turned on, which can happen if you generate an infinite data structure somewhere
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06:03:26	<orangeflu>	this is so weird
06:03:34	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Your other test has been turned into a noop loop, GHC probably understood that it doesn't need anything from there
06:03:59	<orangeflu>	why do i always feel like i am making haskell bend in ways it was never supposed to, haha
06:04:22	<orangeflu>	also, on another note, can't ctrl-c it now
06:04:25	<orangeflu>	so that's fun
06:04:36	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> The SO page also tells you how to profile to detect where it happened too, nice
06:04:41	<c_wraith>	Yeah, this is why I think Language Strict is usually a bad idea.
06:04:52	<c_wraith>	It turns out lots of correct Haskell code breaks when you turn it on
06:05:08	<orangeflu>	well, it did fix my issue to be fair
06:05:10	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Hmmm is StrictData also a bad idea?
06:05:15	<orangeflu>	but it also lobotomized my program
06:05:45	<c_wraith>	StrictData is not nearly as bad, but also not nearly as useful. You don't need any extensions to add a few !s to your data types.
06:05:53	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> The RTS literally decided to ignore SIGINT, wonderful
06:06:21	<orangeflu>	it can't ignore me killing the terminal, so its fine
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06:06:50	<orangeflu>	yeah, so guess i am going back to the monolithic file from before
06:06:52	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Ok, let's go with something less extreme, locate every data type that mentions the memory and make that strict only
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06:07:41	<orangeflu>	Something like `memory :: !Array Int Word8`, you mean?
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06:07:53	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Yeah I think
06:08:38	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> StrictData is technically faster to test but still seems like too much lol
06:08:44	<orangeflu>	that doesn't inspire confidence, to be fair
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06:10:29	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oh it's just that Strict adds too many !s (on functions and data types, maybe lets too but I don't remember), StrictData only adds !s on the ADTs you define
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06:12:39	<orangeflu>	Well, I mean, bubblesort.asm is definitely faster and takes neglijible ram, but test.asm still takes some gigabytes, can't tell if less than before
06:13:00	<orangeflu>	i call this an improvement
06:13:26	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Also note that ! makes strict only the thing you refer to directly, so ! on a List parameter means that the value itself is strict, not that the whole list gets fully evaluated ASAP
06:14:17	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Try profiling now, it might help with test.asm
06:14:21	<orangeflu>	I ran the whole test suite, and it actually made it through this time
06:14:27	<orangeflu>	including test.asm
06:14:45	<orangeflu>	it took like 9 gigs
06:14:58	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> That's one less than before
06:15:05	<orangeflu>	but at least it finished in like 30 seconds
06:15:11	<orangeflu>	as opposed to not at all
06:15:23	<orangeflu>	but still 25 seconds slower than before i did this split
06:15:30	<[exa]>	orangeflu: the -fexpose-all-unfoldings is not sufficient by itself, you also need something like -finline-aggressively (not very sure about the name but it sounded this way)
06:16:12	<[exa]>	btw what's the program? the loopy situation and sigint ignore sounds wild
06:16:22	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Aggressive inlining should help too yeah
06:16:32	<orangeflu>	i think i tried that about 8 hours ago
06:16:35	<orangeflu>	can't remember
06:16:36	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> [exa] https://github.com/Flu/avr-emulator
06:16:49	<[exa]>	I'm using these 2 for everything that goes to production
06:17:01	<orangeflu>	well, the loopy thing and ignoring sigint was when we tried {-# LANGUAGE Strict #-}
06:17:10	<orangeflu>	that doesn't happen normally
06:17:22	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> [exa] The split-up version is on branch feature/18-add-step-by-step-emulation
06:18:02	<orangeflu>	ok, i am going to remove the strict data things, and try again with -finline-aggressively
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06:18:24	<orangeflu>	haskell has taken years off my life at this point
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06:19:00	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> No no keep strictness, those are supposed to mix together
06:19:45	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Or well, try both if you have some time, going blind here is not that fun lol
06:19:51	<[exa]>	I'd say trying without strictness should be a safe bet. Strictness changes semantics, aggressive inlining only changes weird corner cases
06:20:31	<orangeflu>	-finline-generics-aggressively
06:20:36	<orangeflu>	is this the one you meant?
06:21:01	<[exa]>	no thats generics only (not a bad choice either if you use generics)
06:21:10	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Put everything that has "aggressively" on your flags
06:21:36	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Probably a good idea for production stuff lol
06:21:44	<[exa]>	oh wait it is -fspecialize-aggressively
06:22:09	<orangeflu>	i already have that one then
06:22:17	<[exa]>	ah okay nvm then :(
06:22:58	<orangeflu>	let me go back to main to see how it compares to test.asm before all of this, maybe i am wrong and it used to be this way before as well
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06:23:17	<[exa]>	but you have a space leak there right? suggest doing an allocation profile to see what's happening
06:23:26	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Yes, also try to profile the run on test.asm on both
06:23:41	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Both main and the memory-strict version
06:24:16	<orangeflu>	profiling doesn't seem to work for some reason
06:24:21	<orangeflu>	idk why
06:24:26	<orangeflu>	ghc just hangs
06:24:30	<orangeflu>	it says '
06:24:42	<orangeflu>	Building vector-0.4.2
06:24:46	<orangeflu>	and then stops there
06:25:10	<orangeflu>	waited 10 minutes for it to compile that
06:25:23	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> I don't know much about profiling, [exa] any ideas?
06:26:47	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> On the meantime, how good is the performance if you use StrictData on the split up version? It should be close to the memory-strict one, maybe faster
06:27:19	<mauke>	https://infosec.exchange/@barubary/111126546998839428
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06:29:14	<orangeflu>	Ok, so went back to main
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06:29:34	<orangeflu>	test.asm performance is comparable to what it is now with the strict stuff
06:30:09	<orangeflu>	Idk what you mean by StrictData, I just put ! in front of some types
06:30:17	<orangeflu>	Still don't understand what it doese
06:30:43	<orangeflu>	But now it's comparable to what it was before the split
06:30:57	<orangeflu>	So I am happy, even if it feels a little bit hacky
06:31:10	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> It disallows GHC from making a thunk in that position
06:31:33	<orangeflu>	Still don't know why test.asm takes gigabytes of memory.. that seems to have been a problem for some time, but never noticed
06:32:00	<orangeflu>	but after the split, it got much much worse, that's why i noticed
06:32:06	<orangeflu>	interesting
06:32:08	<[exa]>	ok I had a bit of a look at the code, you certainly want the stuff in your State struct strict, and on top of that I'd vote running that in a strict State monad so that you're sure the program isn't keeping one million versions of this state by accident
06:32:12	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> What apparently happened is that you had a space leak, multiple copies of the entire emulator's memory were floating around at the same time, being left as thunks
06:32:21	<[exa]>	2nd suggestion: MVector
06:32:50	<[exa]>	you have plain arrays there right? if so that one _is_ the source of insane allocationery
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06:33:16	<orangeflu>	[exa]: yes, now everything in EmulatorState is strict
06:33:47	<orangeflu>	What's a strict state monad? is it different from a normal State monad?
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06:34:11	<[exa]>	yeah, the other question is how to make sure you're not keeping some of the states by accident together with some other unevaluated data
06:34:53	<orangeflu>	me personally, still wrapping my head around the whole monad thing. I did use some monads here and there, but made them work just by trying shit until the compiler accepted it, can't say i understand it
06:34:54	<[exa]>	State monad does not prevent this but since you never touch&hold the state explicitly, leak probability gets lower
06:35:06	<[exa]>	ah well
06:35:16	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Oh wait you are still learning monads?
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06:35:20	<[exa]>	try parser combinators, these usually demystify it
06:35:37	<orangeflu>	You mean the ones I have in Parser.hs?
06:36:22	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Strictness is definitely not a begginner's topic, it's ok if you don't understand it yet
06:36:41	<orangeflu>	Bowuigi: yeah, shit, it's hard to wrap my head around them. I understand them somewhat. I read the chapters in Learn you a haskell a bunch of times
06:36:47	<orangeflu>	Conceptually, i think i understand it
06:36:54	<orangeflu>	But to actually use them?
06:37:22	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Essentially, when Haskell says it evaluates stuff only when needed it really means that. The only primitive that evaluates anything is "case" (IIRC)
06:37:57	<orangeflu>	i've been wanting to use State monad instead of whatever the fuck i created here, but could never make it work, it always gives me some error i don't understand how to fix
06:38:29	<orangeflu>	Although to be fair, i wrote most of the code in Emulator.hs before i read up on monads
06:38:36	<orangeflu>	maybe if i try now, it will be easier
06:38:53	<orangeflu>	But state monads are harder to understand than something like Maybe
06:38:56	<orangeflu>	That one I get
06:38:59	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> ! automatically inserts one of those "case"s when using those values so you have at least one layer of evaluation now
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06:39:48	<orangeflu>	[exa]: what's MVector and why should i use it instead of arrays?
06:40:11	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> MVector is fairly similar to a C array
06:40:33	<orangeflu>	i thought an array is similar to a c array.. because of the name
06:40:37	<orangeflu>	that's why i used it
06:41:01	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> MVector is mutable, gets nice support for compiler magic and goes fast if you use it properly
06:41:19	<orangeflu>	am i going to have to use monads with it?
06:41:49	<orangeflu>	so its not going to be a drop-in replacement then
06:42:01	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Array is not a C array, but more like a functional array (not to be confused with a List zipper, which is a tree) that gets copied around
06:42:45	<orangeflu>	i am getting code-reviewed here, i love it
06:43:12	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.2.0/docs/Data-Vector-Mutable.html this should make some things clearer
06:43:49	<orangeflu>	i was actually kinda scared while writing this emulator that it would be a terrible misuse of haskell, but it seems to be alright, you guys didn't complain too much about it
06:45:03	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Haskell has some fancy optimization tricks that make low level-ish projects like yours feasible
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06:45:37	<orangeflu>	ok, i get it. it would still require me to go and replace a lot of stuff in the instruction implementations, but it seems doable
06:46:29	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Those tricks include inlining, strictness, mutable data and fusion (we haven't mentioned it explicitly but it's the magic that makes mapping multiple times fast by mapping once, and similar)
06:46:58	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Vector takes care of the fusion, strictness and mutability for you when you use the containers it provides
06:48:50	<orangeflu>	But would i not still need to return EmulatorState each time i execute an instruction? Therefore the MVector will be copied, so what's the difference between this and an array then? What issue did i solve?
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06:50:20	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Here's a very comprehensive guide to GHC optimization for later. Note that those topics are advanced (tho explained clearly there) https://www.stackbuilders.com/insights/ghc-optimization-and-fusion/#specializing
06:50:46	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> You don't copy an MVector unless you call clone on it
06:51:01	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Modifying it doesn't copy it
06:52:15	<orangeflu>	i really need to understand monads properly..
06:53:06	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Hmmm, if parser combinators didn't help, maybe playing with the free monad will?
06:53:23	<orangeflu>	They did help, don't get me wrong
06:53:27	<orangeflu>	Problem is
06:53:32	<orangeflu>	I go mostly by intuition
06:53:54	<orangeflu>	But if i think hard about it, my brain doesn't feel like it understands them
06:54:18	<orangeflu>	Like, if somebody asked me how they work, i don't know that i could explain
06:54:51	<orangeflu>	i just need to use them some more, go back, re-read the chapter about it in Learn you a haskell, rinse and repeat
06:54:58	<orangeflu>	And each time I will get it a bit more
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06:55:50	<orangeflu>	But right now, I want to implement a REPL and step by step emulation, which was the point of all this headache to begin with
06:56:05	<orangeflu>	And there's a lot of monads there
06:56:29	<orangeflu>	src/Repl.hs on my branch
06:57:30	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> A nice explanation of free monads https://www.haskellforall.com/2012/06/you-could-have-invented-free-monads.html?m=1
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06:59:40	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> As for the emulator, just going with MVector, messing around with strictness and adding the "aggressively" flags to the Cabal file will fix 70%-75% of your performance/space issues, the rest are fixed by even deeper magic which would not help now
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07:00:10	<orangeflu>	Ok, bookmarked the links you gave me
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07:00:29	<orangeflu>	also, thank you for everything
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07:00:45	<orangeflu>	been at this for 12 hours now, and my brain is mush
07:00:51	<orangeflu>	you really helped
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07:01:20	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Step by step emulation shouldn't be painful at all, you structured this nicely with the instruction list
07:01:33	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Good luck and glad to help!
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07:03:10	<orangeflu>	well, it is painful
07:03:45	<orangeflu>	cause look how many monads are involved in this: InputT, IO, Parser, Either, Maybe
07:04:15	<orangeflu>	I am actually surprised that what i wrote so far compiles even
07:04:36	<orangeflu>	even if it looks... questionable
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07:51:04	<haskellbridge>	<magic_rb> Bowuigi what cabal flags are you referring to?
07:52:38	<[exa]>	orangeflu: the change to State won't be completely plug-in but you somewhat implicitly do the State there already so I'd say lots of code would just disappear
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07:54:01	<[exa]>	change from arrays to mvectors after that should be quite painless (you change State to StateT IO or ST or so to get the sequenced operations, and then just adjust the memory-changing operation)
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07:54:17	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> magic_rb the GHC flags -fspecialize-aggressively, -fexpose-all-unfoldings and -O2, maybe other stuff too idk
07:54:29	<[exa]>	orangeflu: btw highly recommend playing with a tiny prototype of each, helps a lot.
07:54:49	<haskellbridge>	<magic_rb> Ill try those for my little game engine, last time i profiled it, 40% of the time was >>=
07:55:32	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> If that's due to an associativity issue try Codensity too
07:57:36	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Tangentially related, is smalltt a strict language? It seems to have quite a bit of focus on strictness optimization
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08:02:20	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Implementation-wise, it kinda switches between lazy and eager depending on what needs to be done (for performance reasons), but I'm not sure about its semantics in the usual tasks
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08:21:01	<probie>	It's not possible to override precedence for a function specified in another module is it?
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08:25:45	<geekosaur>	no
08:26:19	<geekosaur>	at least, not directly. You can do `` foo = bar; infixl 4 `foo` `` or similar though
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14:29:16	<zzz>	i've always wonder if Haskell without infix operators would be nicer
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14:30:19	<zzz>	then again, function composition would get awkward
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14:34:00	<probie>	Personally, I wouldn't hate a version of Haskell where all infix operators have the same precedence as `$`
14:38:28	<enikar>	there is liskell, if many parentheses don't afraid you ;)
14:38:56	<ski>	`y * k + x' would be awkward
14:40:34	<probie>	ski: That's not annoying at all. The annoying operator is `-`, because `3 - 4 - 5 - 6` is `3 - (4 - (5 - 6))`
14:41:01	<ski>	it would get interpreted as `y * (k + x)'
14:41:05	<ski>	yea, that too
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14:46:45	<probie>	ski: Pretty much all the APL descendants (APL itself, K, J, Q, BQN) already do this, and their users seems satisfied with how `y*k+x` is parsed
14:47:22	<ski>	iirc, Smalltalk also does this (although to the left, not to the right)
14:48:21	<ski>	enikar : then there's the concatenative languages
14:50:19	<probie>	Re smalltalk: That's right, because x+k*y is (using pseudo-Java syntax) `x.Plus(k).Mult(y)`
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14:52:21	<enikar>	ski: concatenative languages?
14:52:40	<probie>	languages like Forth and Factor
14:53:30	<enikar>	I found that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_language
14:54:52	<probie>	In a concatenative programming language, If I have a function `f` and a function `g`, their composition (written in Haskell as `f . g`) is just `g f`
14:56:59	<enikar>	when I discovered forth it was a great moment :)
14:57:24	<ski>	> run (lit 3 . lit 2 . mult . lit 1 . add) -- `3 * 2 + 1'
14:57:25	<lambdabot>	7
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14:57:39	<ski>	> run (lit 1 . lit 3 . lit 2 . mult . add) -- `1 + 3 * 2'
14:57:57	<lambdabot>	7
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14:58:06	<ski>	> run (lit 3 . lit 2 . sub) -- `3 - 2'
14:58:08	<lambdabot>	1
14:58:17	<ski>	> run (lit 3 . lit 2 . swap_ . sub) -- `2 - 3'
14:58:19	<lambdabot>	-1
14:58:36	<ski>	> run (lit 3 . dup . mult) -- `3 * 3'
14:58:37	<lambdabot>	9
14:58:44	<ski>	enikar : like that ^
14:58:54	<enikar>	yes :)
14:59:51	<ski>	(btw, note how `foo . bar' does the word `foo' first, and then the word `bar', not the other way around)
15:01:28	<enikar>	oh! I see!
15:01:30	<ski>	probie : nod (re Smalltalk)
15:01:59	<ski>	enikar : .. which may be unexpected/surprising (re your comment about `f . g' above)
15:02:20	<enikar>	yes it is
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15:03:42	<ski>	(er, sorry, that was probie who said that)
15:04:27	<ski>	enikar : <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threaded_code> is also interesting
15:04:33	<enikar>	never mind :)
15:05:33	<probie>	I'm not sure if I'd call it a truly concatenative language, but Uiuia is stack based language in which Haskell's `f . g` is written as `f g`. However `f\ng` (where \n is a literal newline) is the same as `g f`.
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15:05:55	<ski>	that's interesting
15:06:22	<ski>	probie : does it have `swap',`drop' and `dup' ?
15:07:14	<enikar>	ski: thanks, I didn't know that, but I wrote a simple calculator that used threaded code.
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15:10:49	<probie>	ski: yes, but it since it's also inspired by APL and therefore everything important needs to be a single character, they're most commonly spelled `:`, `◌` and `.` respectively
15:13:21	<probie>	e.g. `3 4 swap drop dup *` would be `×.◌:3 4`
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15:13:39	ski	nods
15:13:50	<probie>	sorry, `×.◌:4 3`
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15:15:04	<enikar>	APL is too odd
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15:49:59	<hellwolf>	Question: even with NoImplicitPrelude, GHC.Types seem still imported
15:50:09	<hellwolf>	hence Int, Bool, etc. are all available.
15:50:24	<hellwolf>	can one go further to strip those away?
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15:57:33	<probie>	hellwolf: are you sure? They're not imported for me. If I run `ghci -XNoImplicitPrelude` and ask `:k Int` I definitely get a "Not in scope" error
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15:57:56	<hellwolf>	you are right.
15:58:10	<hellwolf>	I did :Set -XNoImplicitPrelude afterwards
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17:39:33	<WzC>	Hmm, does anyone know if I can/how to use coerce to coerce some phantom parameter from one kind into another? More concretely; I would like this to just work : https://paste.tomsmeding.com/MdEGcxHR (and I feel it should, sicne 's' and the kind is universally quantified anyway
17:40:14	<WzC>	I think something like this used to work (porting some old code to newer ghc's, but now s.t. like this gives an error)
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17:45:58	<ski>	type role Foo phantom -- does adding this help ? (need `RoleAnnotations')
17:46:45	<WzC>	unfortunately not
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17:47:16	<WzC>	I think the issue is that the coercible typeclass seems to actually have kind annotations that force that the types have to have the same kind
17:47:40	<WzC>	i.e. the haddocks now say: class a ~R# b => Coercible (a :: k) (b :: k)
17:49:58	<ski>	hm, can you do `data Foo k (s :: k) = Foo' ?
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17:50:30	ski	wonders whether that might help
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17:51:49	<WzC>	interesting idea; doesn't seem to though :(
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18:21:51	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> "A :: Page" contains a list of elements "[ElemType]" such that "e :: ElemType" determines a new page "f(e) :: Page"
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18:22:05	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> what's the right data structure to capture both "A" and "f(e)"
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18:37:43	<iqubic>	Is there a better way to write this function: "matchingKeys :: (Eq v) => Map k v -> v -> [k]"
18:37:46	<iqubic>	"matchingKeys map x = [value \| (key, value) <- M.toList map, value == x]"
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18:49:26	<probie>	:t \m x -> M.keys $ M.filter (== x) $ m
18:49:28	<lambdabot>	Eq a => M.Map k a -> a -> [k]
18:49:51	<ski>	iqubic : i think you need to iterate through all associations in the map (because they're indexed by key, not by value). if you could do with `Ord v', there might be some bimap data structure, or a `(Ord k,Ord v) => Map k v -> Map v [k]' (or `NonEmpty' instead of `[]', perhaps)
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18:50:49	<iqubic>	I was just wondering if there was a helper function that did this for me, but I guess not. What I have is clean enough for my purposes.
18:51:13	<ski>	@hoogle Map k v -> Map v [k]
18:51:14	<lambdabot>	Data.Map.Utils flipM :: (Ord key, Ord val) => Map key val -> Map val [key]
18:51:27	<geekosaur>	there are bedirectional maps, but I don't know if that fits your need
18:52:17	<EvanR>	yeah Data.Map has a filter function
18:52:19	<iqubic>	A bidirectional map would be overkill.
18:52:34	<EvanR>	probie showed a possible incantation to use it
18:52:55	<iqubic>	My map only has at most 10 key value pairs and all the values are distinct.
18:53:18	<EvanR>	even better
18:53:26	<EvanR>	now you don't have to worry about it being too slow
18:55:30	<orangeflu>	matchingKeys map x = Map.keys $ Map.filter (==x) map
18:55:52	<EvanR>	the $ there is really gratuitous
18:56:13	<orangeflu>	why
18:56:57	<EvanR>	it's not a complicated enough expression to require bringing another level of precedence to get the grouping across
18:57:42	<orangeflu>	Does it need to be complicated? I just like how it looks better than with paranthesis
18:58:01	<EvanR>	ok well then that's also my reason
18:58:09	<mauke>	$ only makes sense in non-complicated situations
18:58:26	<EvanR>	I like parentheses better, especially when it's easy to read
18:58:35	<mauke>	parentheses are usually harder to read
18:58:39	<probie>	i$use$it$everywhere
18:59:04	<orangeflu>	i am affirming i want money, nothing to do with grouping or precedence
18:59:15	<monochrom>	Hot take: $ only makes sense in the law (<*>) = liftA2 ($)
18:59:46	<mauke>	too hot
19:00:18	<monochrom>	Call me conservative and reactionary, but IMO today's programmers are too religious in eliminating parentheses.
19:00:20	<EvanR>	someone trained to distrust haskell and doesn't know haskell sees a gratuitous use of $ and says haskell has too many operators. Someone less dumb who doesn't know haskell might see a gratuitous $ and ask, why didn't you just use parentheses there
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19:00:47	<orangeflu>	I used to program a lot in lisp, i love parenthesis
19:00:48	<monochrom>	"f (g x y)" is not that hard to read and doesn't need "f $ g x y".
19:01:08	<mauke>	one level of parens is ok
19:01:15	<mauke>	nesting is where the trouble starts
19:01:33	<orangeflu>	matchingKeys map x = (Map.keys $ (Map.filter (==x) (map)))
19:01:33	<EvanR>	you have to admit you're a never nester?
19:01:38	<orangeflu>	jsut because i'm petty
19:01:42	<EvanR>	new operator for each level of nesting
19:01:46	<monochrom>	Oh by the time you have "f $ g $ h $ i $ x" it's simply (f . g . h . i) x
19:02:18	<EvanR>	that's too many parens up there
19:02:33	<orangeflu>	if anything, it needs more
19:03:01	<EvanR>	you can't use an appeal to lisp syntax since you can't just add arbitrary parens in lisp without breaking things
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19:03:23	<EvanR>	since it's not just for grouping
19:03:54	<orangeflu>	just saying, not afraid of some parens
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19:05:29	<probie>	monochrom: Déjà vu. I was having a similar conversation with some APL people a few hours ago who were complaining about people trying to hard to remove parens. Although to do that, they make excessive use of their equivalent of `flip` which I think is even more confusing
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19:05:50	<EvanR>	since we have multiple equivalent ways to group stuff wadler's law appears
19:05:55	<probie>	s/trying to hard/trying too hard/
19:05:56	<orangeflu>	Also, completely unrelated, but i turned on code coverage with cabal, and now it generates a tix file everytime i run my app, then when i modify something, it complains that the tix file doesn't match the hash, so i have to delete it. What do? Can I make it generate it only when `cabal test` or something similar?
19:06:58	<mauke>	I once implemented a #$ macro in lisp
19:07:14	<mauke>	(f #$ g x) ==> (f (g x))
19:07:49	<probie>	That's a reader macro, right?
19:08:20	<mauke>	yeah
19:09:21	<mauke>	oh, and I just remembered, for people who are allergic to symbols, f $ g $ h $ i $ x can be written as f do g do h do i x
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19:10:44	<monochrom>	hahaha
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19:11:37	<ski>	`$'s are usually harder to read
19:14:16	<ski>	i'd definitely prefer `f (g (h (i x)))' over `f $ g $ h $ i $ x'. `(f . g . h . i) x' can be nice at times, too, or `f . g . h . i $ x' if you must
19:14:52	<probie>	left$to$right$code$read$just
19:16:02	<ski>	main issue is if you have `)' (or a bunch of them in sequence) with corresponding `(' on a line with a bunch of lines inbetween
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19:17:09	<ski>	(i very seldom use `$' at all, except as `($)', or as a section)
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19:18:35	<monochrom>	Yeah, map ($ x) [f, g, h] can be nice.
19:20:44	<orangeflu>	is anybody good at optparse-applicative?
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19:24:27	<ski>	(occasionally i use `foo $ bar . baz', applying a function to a composition (spanning multiple lines). most commonly, this would be when doing `ShowS' stuff, like e.g. writing a `Show' instance manually)
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19:27:10	<probie>	monochrom: `$` considered harmful. Use ``map (`id` x) [f, g, h]`` instead
19:33:56	<ski>	> (sequence `flip` x) [cos,sin,tan]
19:34:00	<lambdabot>	[cos x,sin x,sin x / cos x]
19:38:57	<exarkun>	Why are those better than $?
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19:49:28	<ski>	which things ?
19:50:00	<ski>	(probie's joking, if it isn't clear)
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19:51:23	<ski>	(and my version was just a curious observation, about the environment monad (well, idiom / applicative functor would suffice, here .. could've used `sequenceA' rather than `sequence'))
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20:11:48	<monochrom>	probie: :( XD
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20:20:27	<__monty__>	It feels like filter could be part of something like Foldable. Are there a lot of Foldable structures that aren't filterable? I can only think of tuples.
20:21:56	<monochrom>	Generally fixed-length non-zero-length data structures, e.g., data P a = MkP a a.
20:22:13	<monochrom>	because you want dynamic length for filter.
20:22:22	<WzC>	__monty__: have a look at the witherable package/typeclass that expresses filterable things
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20:23:26	<monochrom>	But yeah tuple is a good start, you just have to think why tuple breaks to see that the issue is fixed length (except zero-length, that one vacuously works :) )
20:26:47	<WzC>	is there some flag to get GHC to print whatever typeclass resolution GHC is doing? I think I accidentally created a cycle in some typeclass instances; but it is not so clear what/why exactly. i.e. it would be convenient to see what GHC is actually doing
20:30:22	<monochrom>	I haven't tried, but maybe https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/debugging.html#type-checking-and-renaming helps.
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20:31:19	<WzC>	.
20:31:48	<WzC>	thanks, let's see if that helps :)
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20:33:43	<EvanR>	ski, is environment monad the same thing as reader monad
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20:34:37	<monochrom>	(->)e for some e. I say yes, but that's when I go with structural typing.
20:35:19	<EvanR>	__monty__, in before someone else wants to insert some other ability into Foldable other than folding
20:35:25	<EvanR>	like indexing
20:35:56	<monochrom>	Oh, indexing is solved. That's just representable functor or Napier functor. :)
20:35:56	<EvanR>	until Foldable doesn't mean foldable specifically
20:36:45	<monochrom>	Yeah, smart phone no longer means phone. >:)
20:37:20	<EvanR>	the process of diluting the communication power of names
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20:37:36	<monochrom>	Hell, dash board is neither dash nor board.
20:37:45	<monochrom>	Oh, and Holy Roman Empire...
20:37:47	<EvanR>	the red herring effect, or something
20:38:22	<monochrom>	"meaningful names" is a lie.
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20:38:52	<monochrom>	What really happens is mnemonic names.
20:39:04	<EvanR>	maybe more realistically, are strategies in a game
20:39:41	<EvanR>	a game programmers have been losing more often than not
20:40:50	<EvanR>	also meaningfulness implies semantics while successful communication doesn't necessarily have to
20:41:06	<ski>	EvanR : yes, aka "input"
20:41:13	<EvanR>	input monad???
20:41:18	<ski>	(and "output" is another name for "writer")
20:41:20	<ski>	yes
20:41:24	<ski>	Wadler used this name
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20:42:04	<EvanR>	Writer monad is based on the Monoid class. Is this inevitable or just a haskell hack
20:42:11	ski	sometimes says "logging" or "summarizing" for output
20:42:23	<EvanR>	is this some kind of masterstroke way to do "output"
20:42:40	<probie>	So that means `type Input = ReaderT`, `type Output = WriterT`, therefore `type IO a = ReaderT (WriterT IO) a`
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20:42:58	<EvanR>	finally IO is well defined
20:43:11	<monochrom>	I guess Moggi and then Plotkin too, but they didn't have a separate input monad, they had a combined input/output monad, the free monad I/O a = a + (Char -> I/O a) + (Char, I/O a)
20:43:56	<ski>	EvanR : "Reader monad is based on (trivial) comonoid"
20:44:11	<EvanR>	lol
20:44:30	<monochrom>	Insofar as generalization is inevitable (as in, if you don't generalize, someone else will), going from [X] to general monoids is inevitable.
20:44:56	<ski>	(makes me wonder if anyone experimented with a version, using `LinearImplicitParameters', and splitting ..)
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20:57:02	<ski>	newtype RandomSupply g a = MkRS (g -> a); instance RandomGen g => Monad (RandomSupply g) where return a = MkRS (\_ -> a); MkRS ga >>= k = MkRS (\g -> let (g0,g1) = split g; MkRS gb = k (ga g0) in gb g1)
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21:06:05	<ski>	newtype RandomGenSplit g = MkRGS g; instance RandomGen g => Splittable (RandomGenSplit g) where {split (MkRGS g) = (MkRGS g0,MkRGS g1) where {(g0,g1) = System.Random.split g}}; newtype LinearSplitSupply l a = MkLSS ((%l :: l) => a); supply :: Splittable l => LinearSplitSupply l l; supply = MkLSS %l; instance Splittable l => Monad (LinearSplitSupply l) where return a = MkLSS a; MkLSS a >>= k = MkLSS (let
21:06:09	<E2Combinator>	Hi. I have a question here I haven't been able to find anywhere else regarding how to extend effects using fused-effects.
21:06:10	<E2Combinator>	Here's some code:
21:06:10	<E2Combinator>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/mudk4tjZ
21:06:11	<ski>	MkLSS b = k a in b)
21:06:11	<E2Combinator>	What I'm trying to do here is make a simple Effect based on the Writer effect, acting as a cumulative flag for use during iteration, to avoid expensive equality comparisons on every iteration of a pretty complicated loop.
21:06:11	<E2Combinator>	Fundamentally, It's just a Writer being used as a write-once flag during iteration.
21:06:12	<E2Combinator>	I've been trying to extend the Writer effect and abstract away the underlying writer, to ensure consumers of my API can't arbitrarily reset the flag, and to provide a clean API, and the normal pathway for doing this described in
21:06:12	<E2Combinator>	https://github.com/fused-effects/fused-effects/blob/main/docs/reinterpreting_effects.md
21:06:13	<E2Combinator>	won't do.
21:06:13	<E2Combinator>	I want to do some post-processing on the outputs of the Writer effect during my run function, and preferably not have to provide a carrier and run function for the underlying Writer effect, "Baking" them into my own carrier and Algebra Impl.
21:06:14	<E2Combinator>	Furthermore, It'd be nice I could handle the Writer internally, to avoid leaking implementation details.
21:06:14	<E2Combinator>	However, I can't seem to figure out what to put in the missing spot, to make it work out, without having to go into the internals of the Writer effect.
21:06:15	<E2Combinator>	Is there a way to do this?
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21:33:12	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> in the context of algebraic effects, are handlers sort of a fold over a tree of computations?
21:33:32	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> i.e. an interpreter for our tree of computations?
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21:36:45	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> or, would it be correct to say that the selling point is that you can compose handlers, giving us a way to compose folds?
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21:49:38	<monochrom>	Yes, handlers are interpreters, the tree is made of the obvious free monad.
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21:52:23	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> I see, ty!
21:52:47	<monochrom>	Composing handlers in the exact order you want is true of all 3 effect systems we know of: monad transformer stacks (the stack order is how you express handler order, e.g., StateT Except vs ExceptT State), Oleg's open union, handlers for algebraic effects.
21:53:13	<monochrom>	So it can't be the selling point of one of them. At most it's the selling point common to all of them.
21:53:21	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> hm right
21:53:29	<monochrom>	So I would say that the selling point of algebraic effects is the algebraic part. :)
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21:54:18	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> noted, thanks for the comments!
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21:56:48	<monochrom>	I think recently I am learning that the more detailed but advanced way of saying that is: an algebraic effect system = a Lawvere theory, and it is pretty well understood how to combine two Lawvere theories (there is a nice tensor product). It actually explains, e.g., why StateT is s -> m (a, s) but MaybeT is m (Maybe a).
21:58:12	<monochrom>	I have only skimmed some papers to get that impression. I don't know further details until I learn Lawvere theories properly. :)
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22:53:38	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone used frp lately?
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23:20:26	<exarkun>	today, right now
23:20:41	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> really? cool
23:20:45	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> what library are you using
23:20:56	<exarkun>	reflex-sdl2
23:21:10	<exarkun>	and reflex, of course
23:22:05	<haskellbridge>	<thirdofmay18081814goya> neat, will try out reflex right now
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