Logs on 2025-01-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:39:49 | <hellwolf> | Probably I should ask here. Is there an opposite to Typeable, say Untypeable... Meaning that I would like that type variable to be bind to a phantom type such as Proxy, that has no runtime information. I can't use role annotation, because it is rather a constraint, not about the type variable itself. |
| 00:41:06 | <hellwolf> | e.g. data F eff a b, and I like that eff to be total phantom, since I sometimes to unsafeCoerce to convert between different effs. |
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| 00:48:54 | <geekosaur> | I think at the moment the answer is no; iirc you can't use either type roles or required type arguments (which I think can "fake it"?) on `data` |
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| 00:57:12 | <hellwolf> | and on nth sort, the actual thing that brought me down is that I carried a constraint for the type, which broke all my unsafe practice. |
| 00:57:22 | <hellwolf> | *thought |
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| 00:58:23 | <hellwolf> | rolled back, painfully. learned some lesson playing with fire. |
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| 02:24:44 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> hellwolf the typeclass Absurd from https://hackage.haskell.org/package/boring seems to be close enough to what you're looking for |
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| 11:21:06 | <mari-estel> | haskell weekly more interesting than usual |
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| 12:00:46 | <bwe> | Does infix notation support multiple arguments (on the left side)? |
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| 12:04:36 | <geekosaur> | that's a very confused question |
| 12:05:10 | <geekosaur> | it's an expression on both sides. said expression may be a function application. "multiple arguments" is incompatible with this |
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| 12:06:43 | <homo> | sounds like someone wants x ? y : z from c |
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| 12:30:40 | <[exa]> | bwe: you can do some trickery to make it kinda work, but I wouldn't say it's recommendable |
| 12:32:10 | <[exa]> | (you need to "pack" the arguments somehow, e.g. by smashing more operators inside or by applying weird typelevel tricks, e.g. what the `printf` does to support varargs) |
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| 13:05:29 | <bwe> | [exa]: alright, I'll don't try it. thanks for your take anyways. |
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| 14:32:57 | <int-e> | . o O ( Why is "Real" a superclass of RealFrac? ) |
| 14:35:24 | <int-e> | (Purely rhetorical; I know this is an old topic, and I have nothing useful to add. I only just ran into this because I was implementing class instances for some Q[sqrt(n)] field.) |
| 14:38:47 | <merijn> | int-e: So people can also make non-real Fractions? xD |
| 14:39:10 | <homo> | non-real like complex numbers? |
| 14:39:29 | <homo> | or just imaginary numbers? |
| 14:39:29 | <merijn> | Incidentally, there is a Fractional instance for Complex, so yes |
| 14:39:52 | <homo> | well, fraction doesn't have to be real... |
| 14:39:52 | <int-e> | the sole method of Real is toRational and there's nothing rational about real fields. |
| 14:40:23 | <int-e> | ironically toRational + fromRational is enough to implement all of RealFrac. |
| 14:40:31 | <merijn> | ssshhh baby, don't think about it ;) |
| 14:41:09 | <homo> | haskell breaks terminology of mathematics |
| 14:41:12 | <int-e> | I'll get over it. Again. Maybe I'll go full 1984 on this and decide tnat I love implementing class methods as `undefined`. |
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| 14:43:57 | <int-e> | merijn: So the "fix" here would be Fractional -> RealFrac -> Fractional. Not going to happen and yeah I'm thinking too much about this :) |
| 14:44:07 | <int-e> | s/->/=>/g |
| 14:46:21 | <int-e> | that last one was supposed to be `Real` |
| 14:46:39 | <int-e> | As you can see, my brain is already shutting off again. :) |
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| 16:27:31 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, have you tried Lean4? if yes, how do compare it to Haskell? Would you recommend it as a more modern replacement? |
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| 16:28:52 | <merijn> | lxsameer: eh I haven't tried it, but how I would compare it to Haskell is "not" |
| 16:28:52 | <geekosaur> | isn't Lean4 dependently typed? so they're not really in the same ballpark |
| 16:29:20 | <merijn> | geekosaur: Lean is also, afaik/afaict, very focussed on being a theorem prover |
| 16:30:01 | <merijn> | lxsameer: Haskell is very much a "general purpose programming language" (that people sometimes abuse to do theorem proving in) |
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| 16:30:33 | <merijn> | lxsameer: Whereas Lean (afaik, not having used it, but knowing it exists) is more like Coq and Agda. That is "a theorem prover" (that people sometimes abuse to do programming in) |
| 16:31:11 | <lxsameer> | merijn: i'm reading the book, it seems like a general purpose lang as well. at least among all the theromprovers I looked at, it is certainly the one that we can label it as general purpose |
| 16:31:58 | <geekosaur> | maybe monochrom can say a bit more |
| 16:32:00 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: sure, but the fact that there are attempts to bring dependant types to haskell make them comparable IMHO |
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| 16:32:48 | <merijn> | I suppose that Lean (looking over their docs) is perhaps more like Idris |
| 16:32:55 | <merijn> | (than Coq or Agda) |
| 16:33:17 | <merijn> | lxsameer: I guess the real question is "modern replacement for what?" |
| 16:35:04 | <lxsameer> | good question. As rookie haskeller, I have to say, I struggled a lot with the tooling and so on |
| 16:35:22 | <merijn> | lxsameer: I mean, lean doesn't seem to have any tooling for packages/etc. |
| 16:35:36 | <lxsameer> | merijn: it ships with one called lake |
| 16:35:59 | <lxsameer> | I'm pretty knew to it hence the question |
| 16:36:04 | <merijn> | What tooling did you struggle with? |
| 16:36:30 | <geekosaur> | I've had less trouble with cabal than cargo, and let's not even get started on rust-analyzer |
| 16:36:51 | <lxsameer> | geekosaur: Amen to that |
| 16:37:15 | <lxsameer> | merijn: Cabal, GHC |
| 16:37:31 | <merijn> | lxsameer: What OS? How did you install them? |
| 16:37:39 | <lxsameer> | i'm ok with them right now since I had my battle with them :D |
| 16:37:45 | <lxsameer> | NixOS |
| 16:38:11 | <merijn> | ah |
| 16:38:33 | <merijn> | I like Nix *conceptually* I'm not at all sold on the UX it has :p |
| 16:38:58 | <merijn> | lxsameer: Did you try ghcup? (Not sure how well that works on Nix) |
| 16:39:06 | <lxsameer> | merijn: I love to be honest even though it took me a long time to admit it |
| 16:39:37 | <lxsameer> | merijn: yeah I tried that too. it's ok right now |
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| 16:53:13 | <int-e> | . o O ( Nix is the solution to a problem that almost nobody has? ) |
| 16:54:09 | <mari-estel> | except cabal, with bin dependencies sometimes missing |
| 16:56:41 | <lxsameer> | int-e: and what is that problem :D |
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| 17:00:52 | <int-e> | lxsameer: conflicting versions of packages coexisting in one space... there's always somebody who finds a use for such things. stuff like (oh god that TLD) https://nixos.pro/posts/why-nixos-is-revolutionizing-the-way-we-manage-operating-systems/ |
| 17:01:29 | <int-e> | Which I googled... I just wanted *one* example of the inevitable blog post that portrays NixOS as THE solution for something. |
| 17:02:23 | <geekosaur> | practically every nix/nixos kool-aid drinker I've ever encountered |
| 17:02:25 | <int-e> | (there's a huge overlap between this one and people juggling VM images/containers) |
| 17:02:29 | <lxsameer> | int-e: ah i see, I have to say, Nix and NixOS is one of those things that you'll appriciate only after when you experienced it. |
| 17:02:56 | <homo> | guix is better than nixos, because it is fsdg-compliant (respects your freedom), reproducible and bootstrappable |
| 17:02:58 | <int-e> | . o O ( aka Stockholm syndrome ) |
| 17:03:07 | <lxsameer> | We have/had a huuuuuge build pipeline for a really complicated software written mostly in C++ using Conan |
| 17:03:21 | <lxsameer> | and every build used to take 9 hours. |
| 17:03:43 | <int-e> | lxsameer: I seriously believe that I haven't yet encountered a problem that would justify the leap. And I suspect that I'm not alone in this :-P |
| 17:04:09 | <lxsameer> | We literally packaged every dependency and our toolchain was pretty outdated just because we couldn't migrate it to the newer version thanks to conan |
| 17:04:20 | <int-e> | I tend to have a problem that NixOS makes worse... running out of disk space. |
| 17:04:41 | <lxsameer> | but using nix, OMG everything is very smooth, dependency management is not a nightmare any more |
| 17:05:09 | <lxsameer> | int-e: yeah disk can be an issue, but I'm 3T and my store is like 200G |
| 17:05:25 | <lxsameer> | beside that, one otherthing that I love is OS as a function |
| 17:05:26 | <yushyin> | nix has its quirks, annoyances and such but i do like it for the nixos modules (cfgmgmt), i tried other solutions (puppet, ansible) but I ended up with nixos |
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| 17:06:06 | <lxsameer> | oh yeah, i bootstrap a new node in a deterministic way, essentially git for my os |
| 17:06:40 | <lxsameer> | my OS never breaks, if I screw, I just rollback one generation and baaam! all good |
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| 17:12:44 | <yushyin> | i cannot say the same, i have complex enough configurations that were 'broken' after updates and due to state (which nixos is terrible at managing) I couldn't just rollback to an older generation ... |
| 17:12:58 | <yushyin> | (still my favorite cfgmgmt for personal use) |
| 17:13:32 | <lxsameer> | yushyin: you couldn't rollback at boot |
| 17:13:34 | <lxsameer> | ? |
| 17:16:40 | <yushyin> | i certainly could have started an older generation, but the system would still be 'broken', i would also have had to restore the state (in /var/lib) from a backup (that didn't exist) |
| 17:17:07 | <lxsameer> | yushyin: ah got it |
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| 18:30:28 | <bwe> | how do I pattern match for a single member NonEmpty? |
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| 18:31:03 | <geekosaur> | (x:|[]) ? |
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| 18:59:15 | <bwe> | geekosaur: works, thanks! |
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| 19:09:06 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: Don't rollback, just start afresh and replay a prefix of the history. :) |
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| 20:04:47 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2PZ3zHir I've got that implementation of a sparseset, i already sprinkled in INLINEs but i dont quite under stand why im getting the following prof output https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jjgSGOAa sparsesets should be fast, especially with an "exists" query as thats O(1) |
| 20:05:33 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> its an STRef internally running in IO in the end |
| 20:05:47 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> maybe the fact thats it generic over m is whats slowing the whole thing down? |
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| 20:34:30 | <c_wraith> | the fact that it's doing 70% of the allocation makes me suspect it's getting the blame for evaluating something that was otherwise getting passed to it unevaluated. |
| 20:35:09 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> so something is not strict which ought to be strict? |
| 20:35:31 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> well, a good start would be making the tuple strict |
| 20:37:40 | <c_wraith> | Just in general, this doesn't look like code that was written to make it easy for users to control evaluation. |
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| 20:43:48 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Well, i wrote it sooo |
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| 20:43:59 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Any tips are greatly appreciated |
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| 20:48:03 | <EvanR> | before you modify the ST ref do you make sure to evaluate the value |
| 20:48:11 | <EvanR> | if it's like, just a number |
| 20:48:36 | <c_wraith> | If you haven't read https://apfelmus.nfshost.com/blog/2013/08/21-space-invariants.html , start there. Focus especially on the idea that what's useful is linking evaluation. |
| 20:51:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> EvanR no i dont, would be nice to do so |
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| 20:51:52 | <EvanR> | is there an equivalent of evaluate for ST |
| 20:51:53 | <EvanR> | :t evaluate |
| 20:51:54 | <lambdabot> | a -> IO a |
| 20:52:38 | <EvanR> | oh there is |
| 20:52:39 | <EvanR> | modifySTRef' |
| 20:52:51 | <monochrom> | There may be a modifySTRef' . If not, you add your own $! or bang, writeSTRef v $! (n+1) |
| 20:53:35 | <EvanR> | ! is pronounced bang. $! wants to be pronounced whizbang. I say |
| 20:53:44 | <monochrom> | err, s/bang/seq/ e.g. let n1 = n+1 in seq n1 (writeSTRef v n1) which is what the $! does |
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| 20:55:29 | <c_wraith> | is PrimMonad always either ST s or IO? |
| 20:56:51 | <c_wraith> | man, vector's new cabal layout really messes with haddock. The index only includes the items in the benchmark. |
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| 20:58:07 | <c_wraith> | Oh, no. PrimMonad can be transformers around one of those. |
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| 21:18:18 | <monochrom> | Haha only the benchmarks are documented. |
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| 21:23:14 | <c_wraith> | I'm not sure if that one's an issue with cabal, haddock, or the way vector layed things out |
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| 21:58:44 | <spew> | does anyone know of a nice logging package that does not depend on template haskell? |
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| 22:10:23 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fast-logger ? |
| 22:11:26 | <mauke> | hPutStrLn stderr |
| 22:12:36 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 22:12:42 | <dmj`> | bytestring builder worked well for me |
| 22:17:54 | <dabs> | actually when you boil this down to the core issue, it's a category theory thing |
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| 22:20:34 | <dmj`> | the logger category |
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| 22:40:12 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> c_wraith: looking at my code again, most of the apparent allcs are in "exists" which doesnt even touche the STRef at all. it only reads it |
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| 22:40:46 | <geekosaur> | which suggests it's forcing a thunk that's in the STRef |
| 22:41:30 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> those thunks dont change, oh wait |
| 22:41:36 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> they do the positions move |
| 22:44:03 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> right and my physics system writes even positions that are equal so there is constant churn |
| 22:46:07 | <sm> | @where+ games https://joyful.com/Haskell+Games |
| 22:46:21 | <lambdabot> | Done. |
| 22:47:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> maybe i ought to move into games, though this is a general "why is my haskell code horribly slow" question :) |
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| 22:50:37 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> i removed some of the inline pragmas, around exists and got https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lA8DAs9V |
| 22:50:47 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> which suggests that there is overhead from PrimMonad |
| 22:51:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> and somehow overhead in exists |
| 22:51:03 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> still |
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| 22:51:36 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> all the vectors are unbox, right thats why the allocs |
| 22:51:38 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> it has to box |
| 22:51:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> damn |
| 22:52:04 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> might be better to make the metadata vectors boxed? hm |
| 22:54:17 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> maybe if i can work with the unboxed values directly? though thats extremely clumsy |
| 22:55:51 | <monochrom> | boxed takes more memory than unboxed, namely, one more pointer. |
| 22:56:28 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> yeah i know |
| 22:56:44 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> but exists is a really frequently used function so it needs to be very snappy |
| 22:57:05 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> maybe doing storable and reading the pointers? i was hoping to have the sparseset accessible from both Haskell and native code |
| 22:57:12 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> for rendering code or something |
| 22:57:47 | <monochrom> | storable and unboxed are pretty much on par. storable supports user-defined types more easily. |
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| 22:58:12 | <monochrom> | boxed is the only one that supports laziness. |
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| 22:58:44 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Right i dont need that, or rather dont want that |
| 22:59:00 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Ill try to avoid boxing in exists next, working with unboxed types |
| 22:59:11 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Itll be syntactic hell but ive never done that so i wanna try |
| 23:00:21 | <monochrom> | If you have an unboxed vector and it's mutable and you are in ST/IO modifying it in-place, there should not be that much allocation, at least not allocation a whole new copy of the whole vector. |
| 23:01:36 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Yes but im pulling out the Int from it, doing some compressions and then returning a Bool to the calling code saying "yep exists" and doing that hundreds of times per frame |
| 23:01:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Which adds up |
| 23:01:41 | <monochrom> | or rather, s/there should not be/that should not be the cause of/ |
| 23:02:21 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> The exists function does nothing else, it takes a Int, accesses the vectors from behind a STRef and then returns a Bool |
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| 23:51:01 | <sm> | lambdabot's where db contains enlightenment: https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=fn8r65rg7upfff0o , but I see no Haskell connection - will clean it out unless you know otherwise |
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| 23:54:25 | <sm> | @where+ enlightenment |
| 23:54:25 | <lambdabot> | It is forgotten. |
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| 23:55:31 | <sm> | @where+ nikki https://github.com/nikki-and-the-robots/nikki |
| 23:55:31 | <lambdabot> | Done. |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-01-03.