Logs on 2025-01-04 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:24:31 | <Leary> | magic_rb: I suggest writing these functions directly in `ST s`; they can always be generalised with `stToPrim` anyway. Being monad-polymorphic interferes with optimisation. The other option is to litter your code with `SPECIALISE` pragmata. |
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| 15:28:01 | <hellwolf> | I still find it challenging to support tupleN and Solo seemlessly with one typeclass function. It may need both overlappable and undecidable instances. My strategy is to have two distinct functions always, one for Solo without the Solo tag, one for N-tuple. |
| 15:28:12 | <hellwolf> | Does anyone have experience with such trite ? |
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| 15:44:32 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/10270 might give you something to work from? (it changes how Cabal's structured hashes work with tuples/Solo, which code might be useful for you?) |
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| 15:51:58 | <hellwolf> | let me see |
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| 15:55:25 | <hellwolf> | in fairness, I think it is because I defined TupleN as type family, which prompts the usage of undecidableinstances if used in conjunction with type classes. |
| 15:55:45 | <hellwolf> | maybe I should just learn to live with UndecidableInstances in certain places |
| 15:57:11 | <hellwolf> | Actually, there is also a default method trick, which will check constraint without resorting to UncecidableInstances |
| 15:57:41 | <hellwolf> | So that I can make that work for all tupleN, and override it for MkSolo-less solo values. |
| 15:58:21 | <hellwolf> | hmmm, no, then that instance will be for all types, since its instance head is simply "a" |
| 15:58:37 | <hellwolf> | will try more another day... |
| 15:59:26 | <hellwolf> | fwiw, this is example of the type signatures I have in a few places: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hE4h3Qs3 |
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| 18:09:11 | <hellwolf> | is defining operator (.:=) (.<-) future proof for the overloadded dot worlds? |
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| 18:15:06 | <monochrom> | Let us take a look at the GHC user's guide on that. |
| 18:15:48 | <monochrom> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_dot.html |
| 18:16:21 | <monochrom> | Ugh OK that doesn't say anything about how the lexer and parser works. |
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| 18:17:05 | <hellwolf> | :p |
| 18:17:23 | <monochrom> | I'm going to guess that only <alphabetical_name>.<alphabetical_name> is recognized as record dot, so foo.:= will not be affected. |
| 18:17:59 | <hellwolf> | a quick search on hoogle suggests that there are plenty of (.***) operators exist in the wild |
| 18:18:16 | <monochrom> | Yeah that's also a goo assurance. |
| 18:18:48 | <hellwolf> | you just need to disregard the possibility of the likes of GHC 9.0 deep subsumption saga would not happen again. |
| 18:18:52 | <monochrom> | Like how NP-completeness allows you to tell your boss "I can't make it fast but all of CS can't either" >:) |
| 18:19:40 | <monochrom> | Oh that one is easily solved by being less pointfree. |
| 18:19:49 | <hellwolf> | but I think it could be a sick tradition, say, at 10.0, we introduce a ecosystem wide breaking change that would have to be rolled back by 10.2 |
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| 18:20:55 | <hellwolf> | > solved by being less pointfree |
| 18:20:55 | <hellwolf> | gosh, we just had this conversation yesterday. I was coerced to be more pointfree by hlint. |
| 18:21:08 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 18:21:08 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: solved :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> t3 -> t |
| 18:21:08 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘folded’ (imported from Control.Lens)error: |
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| 18:22:16 | monochrom | ran into it, but quickly discovered that eta expansion solves it, it's annoying but merely annoying, don't understand why other people make it sound like apocalypical. |
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| 18:22:34 | <monochrom> | Oh I don't even use hlint. |
| 18:23:12 | <int-e> | but do you :set -Wno-x-partial in your .ghci |
| 18:24:28 | <monochrom> | I teach Haskell as part of a course, I am supposed to write elementary code because students are new to Haskell so "f x = g (h x)" and "(\x -> x + 5)" are more appropriate, I don't need a linter that tells me to write code beginners don't understand. |
| 18:24:51 | <monochrom> | Also Haskell is only part of the course, not going to waste time on cute (+ 5) syntax. |
| 18:25:38 | <monochrom> | I don't even have time to teach ($), I write "m <*> n = liftA2 (\f x -> f x) m n" explicitly. |
| 18:26:25 | <hellwolf> | also, there is people saying hlint is for beginners :D |
| 18:26:27 | <hellwolf> | so confusing |
| 18:26:35 | <monochrom> | What does -Wno-x-partial do? |
| 18:26:58 | <int-e> | it silences the warnings about head and tail and a few more functions like that |
| 18:26:58 | <geekosaur> | stops recent ghc from warning about things like `head` |
| 18:27:14 | <monochrom> | To be fair, some hlint advices are for beginners and code smells. But not the majority. |
| 18:27:33 | <geekosaur> | hlint is trying to get beginners to write more mature code. monochrom's course is not about that |
| 18:27:34 | <monochrom> | The majority is about pretending to be an expert. |
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| 18:28:06 | <monochrom> | Ah, what is "x" doing there? :) |
| 18:28:20 | <geekosaur> | "x-" prefix is for user defined warnings |
| 18:28:34 | <geekosaur> | x-partial isn't built into ghc; it's defined by base |
| 18:28:56 | <monochrom> | Oh like email headers have X-Spamassassin: ... |
| 18:29:04 | <geekosaur> | exactly |
| 18:29:23 | <monochrom> | Haha you missed the opportunity for "X-actly" |
| 18:29:35 | <monochrom> | Sorry! I love bad puns and dad jokes. |
| 18:29:41 | <geekosaur> | I'm not defining a new word 😛 |
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| 18:34:37 | <monochrom> | There is also a difference between "you wrote f x = g 4 x, why not f = g 4" and "you wrote f x = g 4 x, it can be simplified to f = g 4 because ..." |
| 18:35:19 | <monochrom> | A reminder tool for experts can do the former (as is supposed to). That is not for beginner unless you want to foster cargo culting. |
| 18:35:44 | <monochrom> | For beginner, you want to foster learning, curiosity, growth. You are supposed to do the latter. |
| 18:36:17 | <monochrom> | hlint does the former so it is not for beginner unless you encourage cargo culting. |
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| 18:43:25 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> They are not the same |
| 18:44:23 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/fbut.md#f-x---is-not-f--x--- |
| 18:44:36 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Hlint is not an expert tool |
| 18:45:05 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> An expert tool would suggest what actually makes sense in the context |
| 18:45:22 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Not just simplistic conversion rules |
| 18:45:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> One of these days someone will train an LLM on Haskell specifically and it will be pretty good |
| 18:46:21 | <monochrom> | I will be happy enough to just get people to agree that hlint is not for beginners. I don't really mind if it is not for experts either, or anyone at all! |
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| 19:32:41 | <hellwolf> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/k2Mfmo9N which syntax is more palatable to you |
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| 19:34:37 | <hellwolf> | shoot, I should use list (:) for the 2nd form: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ZI361mZo |
| 19:35:18 | <monochrom> | Is :| the constructor for NonEmpty? |
| 19:35:29 | <hellwolf> | yes |
| 19:35:32 | <hellwolf> | I needed a NomEmpty |
| 19:36:36 | <monochrom> | Is it always 2 assignments? Is it always only known to be at least 1 assignment? |
| 19:36:44 | <hellwolf> | 1 or more |
| 19:36:56 | <hellwolf> | x1 :| x2 ... : [] |
| 19:37:02 | <monochrom> | Then definitely non-empty list. |
| 19:37:15 | <hellwolf> | yea, getting obvious. |
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| 19:37:22 | <monochrom> | Each assignment in the long term is better off as x:=y rather than (x,y). |
| 19:37:35 | <hellwolf> | yea, but := is data constructor, darn it |
| 19:37:43 | <hellwolf> | I banged my head against the wall for this |
| 19:37:49 | <monochrom> | In general, your own type and well-thought name rather than generic (,) and Either. |
| 19:37:49 | <hellwolf> | *is for |
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| 19:38:29 | <monochrom> | But only for long term benefit! I just use (,) and Either for short-term toy throw-away code. |
| 19:39:28 | <tomsmeding> | what's the problem with (:=) being a data constructor? |
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| 19:40:10 | <hellwolf> | it's the "silly" rule of Haskell |
| 19:40:18 | <hellwolf> | ah, you mean why the problem |
| 19:40:23 | <tomsmeding> | yes :) |
| 19:40:27 | <monochrom> | I think this "darn it" is the pleasant surprise kind, "darn it, didn't know this is perfect!" |
| 19:40:33 | <hellwolf> | hmm, well, that's harder to explain without the context |
| 19:40:39 | <tomsmeding> | data a := b = a := b |
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| 19:40:57 | <monochrom> | too many equals =_= |
| 19:41:02 | <monochrom> | I mean haha |
| 19:41:14 | <tomsmeding> | data Asg a b = a := b -- monochrom's version |
| 19:41:18 | <hellwolf> | i need something return my monad |
| 19:41:20 | <hellwolf> | := wouldn't help |
| 19:41:34 | <hellwolf> | though it would look nice and more familiar to people. |
| 19:41:55 | <hellwolf> | */familiar/intuitive/ |
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| 19:43:08 | <monochrom> | I wonder if @= works |
| 19:43:20 | tomsmeding | . o O ( =: ) |
| 19:44:04 | <monochrom> | I'm a rebel so I would also consider != haha |
| 19:45:11 | <tomsmeding> | <~ |
| 19:45:52 | <monochrom> | Also, did you know that you had an accidental pun? Some people explain monads as contexts, so "hard to explain without the context... there is a monad..." haha |
| 19:46:01 | <int-e> | . o O ( I kind of like this stupid piece of code (a generic implementation of properFraction) https://paste.debian.net/1342452/ ) |
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| 19:49:47 | <monochrom> | Yeah that is interesting. |
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| 19:53:05 | <monochrom> | This is using long division! |
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| 19:53:39 | <int-e> | yeah, kind of :) |
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| 19:58:16 | <hellwolf> | reversed operation, that is =: could be considered |
| 19:58:51 | <hellwolf> | probably for people reading from right to left is rather an accidental bless. |
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| 20:01:07 | <hellwolf> | anyways, if you are curious, this is the final point of the raw syntax I am settled with for the first release: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hreFdlHK . Plenty work can still be done for syntactic sugar improvements, but I am gonna take it easy on that and gather more feedback before more opinionated designs. |
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| 20:55:25 | <sshine> | in order to understand monads, one must first understand monads. |
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| 21:22:29 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Does that mean that in order to understand comonads, one must first counderstand comonads? |
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| 21:38:47 | <monochrom> | In the opposite category, monads understand you! |
| 21:39:26 | <monochrom> | Also: |
| 21:39:31 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom cccpy |
| 21:39:31 | <lambdabot> | No quotes match. |
| 21:39:32 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom cccp |
| 21:39:33 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: in Soviet Russia, you have current-continuation-calls-procedure (CCCP) |
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| 21:43:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> How "deep" do you have to dualize in Category Theory to get the extra theorems? Which arrows exactly do you have to reverse? |
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| 21:44:47 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Is it all the arrows, even those inside definitions? |
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| 23:11:59 | × | Everything quits (~Everythin@195.138.86.118) (Quit: leaving) |
| 23:20:52 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 23:24:14 | × | tromp quits (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 23:27:48 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 23:31:55 | × | img quits (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) |
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| 23:38:54 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
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| 23:51:08 | × | wootehfoot quits (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 23:51:11 | → | prasad joins (~Thunderbi@c-73-75-25-251.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 23:54:16 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) |
| 23:57:25 | × | notzmv quits (~umar@user/notzmv) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:58:28 | × | ponup quits (~santiago@user/ponup) (Quit: WeeChat 3.8) |
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| 23:59:00 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-01-04.