Logs on 2025-01-07 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:24:13 | <kmx> | hello |
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| 07:48:43 | <jackdk> | hi |
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| 08:59:08 | <hellwolf> | I realized that I had understanding of what is Prisms. Now that I see it has two idiomatic functions "match" and "build". It got me thinking that I ought to understand it, since I am building otherwise an ad-hoc pattern-matching machinery. |
| 08:59:08 | <hellwolf> | Does anyone have experiece with Prisms? |
| 08:59:17 | <hellwolf> | *I had no understanding |
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| 09:01:39 | homo_ | is now known as homo |
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| 09:51:21 | <jackdk> | I'm about to head out so I can't give a detailed answer, but I think you're not getting any responses because it's not clear what your actual question is, who is capable of answering it, and how much effort doing so will take. https://github.com/system-f/lets-lens eventually gets to prism exercises. Optics By Example is a fantastic book, but it is paid. |
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| 10:56:39 | <hellwolf> | Thanks for the pointers! I will look into those books. And yes, it was not phrased to be a clear question, but rather a conversation opener which I assume is tolerated in this channel. |
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| 11:01:51 | <smiesner> | no experience with either lenses nor prisms.. so can't take part in the convo |
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| 11:39:20 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Does anyone have an example of a well-known (general purpose) language /without/ higher-order functions? |
| 11:40:18 | <mari49021> | it is easier to find one without proper recursion handling, if you want to discriminate by paradigm |
| 11:40:42 | <jackdk> | BASIC? |
| 11:41:27 | <jackdk> | (Is that still well-known?) I'd also say C, because function pointers don't really get you the whole way there |
| 11:41:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I want to give an example for first-class struct fields by first going through first-class functions |
| 11:42:16 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It seems VBScript has function refs now |
| 11:42:39 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> If going for old languages, I believe old java didn't have higher order functions? |
| 11:43:07 | <mari49021> | i am not familiar with functions as arguments in python either |
| 11:43:26 | <geekosaur> | FORTRAN? |
| 11:43:47 | <geekosaur> | maybe newer versions do, FORTRAN IV and FORTRAN 77 certainly didn't |
| 11:44:00 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Have you heard of python's map and reduce functions in stdlib? :D |
| 11:44:27 | <mari49021> | huh long time since i was pythoning |
| 11:44:41 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Fortran is a nice idea. Maybe old pascal as well, where I'm from it's really well known |
| 11:47:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Welp, pascal has also had function pointers since forever |
| 11:47:55 | <jackdk> | Old Java lacking native HoFs was the reason for all these single-method interfaces like java.awt.event.ActionListener, which is `ActionEvent -> IO ()` in an OO trenchcoat |
| 11:48:24 | <mauke> | java doesn't even have functions |
| 11:48:27 | <mauke> | or have they changed that? |
| 11:48:42 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I think they did, they even have anonymous closures now |
| 11:49:25 | <mauke> | I expect that to be what C++ did, i.e. compiler-generated classes/instances under the hood |
| 11:49:37 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> It seems that java didn't have HoF at least in 2011, so that seems like a great example |
| 11:50:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> Probably it's exactly like in C++. I'm only concerned about UX, so the inner workings are whatever |
| 11:50:28 | <jackdk> | Re: C and Pascal: I don't think you can call function pointers "higher-order functions". It's very hard to synthesise a new one at runtime (imagine trying to write `curry`). You can fudge them I guess but it's not nearly as ergonomic as a in a language that actually has them |
| 11:51:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> mmap(.., PROT_EXEC) goes brr |
| 11:51:34 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> I admit it's a crazy way to write curry |
| 11:51:39 | <haskellbridge> | <Morj> But now I'm tempted to do it |
| 11:52:31 | <mauke> | it was much easier on x86 without W^X protection :-D |
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| 12:17:30 | <homo> | logically it's W NAND X, why have either W or X mandatory... |
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| 12:22:56 | <jackdk> | You said earlier that you were concerned about UX, not implementation details. I think implementing curry via mmap might cross that UX line |
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| 12:23:02 | <jackdk> | Cool idea though |
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| 12:37:41 | <famubu> | I tried `a-b=4` on a fresh ghci repl and it didn't give error. I was trying to see if haskell allows hyphens in variable names. But I guess it doesn't because attempt to use `a-b` gave errors. |
| 12:37:53 | <famubu> | Still why didn't it give error at `a-b=4` itself? |
| 12:38:27 | <geekosaur> | you defined a new `-` |
| 12:38:37 | <geekosaur> | Haskell definition syntax is kinda interesting |
| 12:39:25 | <geekosaur> | if you type `2-1` at the prompt you'll get `4` |
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| 12:40:56 | <famubu> | Oh.. 😃 That's really interesting.. |
| 12:41:15 | <famubu> | So functions can be defined in infix as well? |
| 12:41:23 | <famubu> | For which all symbols is that possible? |
| 12:42:12 | <famubu> | So far I've tried +-*/%^ |
| 12:42:54 | <famubu> | Can multi-character symbols be done too? |
| 12:42:56 | <famubu> | Like a--b=3 |
| 12:43:50 | <geekosaur> | -- is reserved for comments |
| 12:44:21 | <geekosaur> | but multi-character symbols are definitely possible, with one restriction: if the first character is `:` then it's a constructor name and you can't define it as a function |
| 12:45:05 | <geekosaur> | other reserved characters exist: can't define braces, parentheses, commas, and single (but not multiple) & and | are reserved "words" |
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| 12:47:41 | <famubu> | Is there some place where I can read more about the possibility of defining functions using symbols? |
| 12:47:44 | <famubu> | Can unary functions also have notations like this? |
| 12:47:50 | <merijn> | famubu: More specifically, you can use any character that has the unicode class Symbol |
| 12:48:39 | <merijn> | > generalCategory '☃' |
| 12:48:40 | <lambdabot> | OtherSymbol |
| 12:49:05 | <merijn> | > let x ☃ y = (x*y) + x + y in 3 ☃ 5 |
| 12:49:07 | <lambdabot> | 23 |
| 12:49:30 | <merijn> | famubu: The exact details can be found in the Haskell Report 2010 |
| 12:49:37 | <geekosaur> | unary functions aren't actually a thing in Haskell; there's an ugly parser hack for unary `-` which leads to conflicts with section syntax |
| 12:49:38 | <merijn> | I'm guessing (of the top of my head) chapter 2 |
| 12:49:58 | <merijn> | geekosaur: unary operators aren't ;) |
| 12:50:05 | <geekosaur> | (sections being the main reason unary operators are a problem) |
| 12:50:11 | <merijn> | geekosaur: Unary functions is all we got! ;) |
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| 12:50:47 | <geekosaur> | (a "section" is a partially applied operator. quick, what does `(- 1)` mean?) |
| 12:51:16 | <merijn> | famubu: The full specification is here: https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch2.html#x7-180002.4 |
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| 12:52:38 | <merijn> | famubu: So the following ascii characters: ! # $ % & ⋆ + . / < = > ? @ |\ ^ - ~ : |
| 12:53:30 | <merijn> | And any unicode symbol that is not: _ " ' |
| 12:54:04 | <merijn> | famubu: Incidentally, any function can be made infix via ` |
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| 12:54:12 | <merijn> | > elem 3 [1..5] |
| 12:54:24 | <merijn> | > 3 `elem` [1..5] |
| 12:54:41 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 12:54:42 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 12:55:50 | <kaol> | > 3 `(`elem`)` [1..5] |
| 12:55:52 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:4: error: parse error on input ‘(’ |
| 12:56:30 | <geekosaur> | yeh, no expressions inside `` ` ``, parsing gets too complicated |
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| 12:56:56 | <merijn> | Yeah, only single names |
| 12:57:08 | <kaol> | There are days when I wish everything was lisp. |
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| 12:59:11 | <famubu> | I guess these are the character combinations whose precedence and associativity can be set separately with `infix` and friends. |
| 12:59:16 | <famubu> | Is it? |
| 12:59:31 | <geekosaur> | yes, if I understand you correctly |
| 13:00:02 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/blob/master/src/XMonad/ManageHook.hs#L45-L51 |
| 13:00:40 | <famubu> | Yeah like `infix :+`. |
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| 13:00:56 | <famubu> | Sorry `infix +:` if `:` cannot be the beginning. |
| 13:02:47 | <geekosaur> | you can set associativity for constructors. consider that : itself (list constructor) is right associative |
| 13:03:17 | <merijn> | famubu: Both operators and the `` notation of regular functions can have their fixity (precedence) set explicitly |
| 13:03:30 | <merijn> | The default being `infixl 9` (iirc?) |
| 13:05:32 | <merijn> | famubu: Fixity going from 0 to 9 (0 being lowest precedence, 9 highest) and function application having fixity 10 (i.e. higher than any operator) and record syntax having fixity 11 |
| 13:06:39 | <merijn> | famubu: You can see non-default fixity's in the Hackage docs too, see for example: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.21.0.0/docs/GHC-List.html#v:elem |
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| 13:09:12 | <famubu> | Defining fixity for a function means that it takes effect only when used as infix with the backtick syntax, I suppose. |
| 13:09:40 | <merijn> | Correct |
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| 13:15:54 | <famubu> | `:` cannot be used as operator, right? But doing `a:b=4` doesn't result in error. What happens there instead? |
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| 13:18:56 | <merijn> | > let a:b = 5 in 1:2 |
| 13:18:57 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 13:18:57 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Num [Integer]) arising from a use of ‘e_1512’ |
| 13:18:57 | <lambdabot> | • In the expression: e_1512 |
| 13:19:00 | <geekosaur> | pattern match. `4` is assumed to be a list whose head would be bound to `a` and tail to `b`. (this works because numeric literals are secretly functions) |
| 13:19:09 | <merijn> | oh, right |
| 13:19:13 | <merijn> | Funky :D |
| 13:19:27 | <geekosaur> | at top level this won't fire unless `a` or `b` is used, in which case you get the error above |
| 13:19:49 | <merijn> | Try using 'a' instead of 4 for a more sensible error ;) |
| 13:19:58 | <merijn> | > let a:b='a' in 1:2 |
| 13:20:00 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 13:20:00 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘[a1]’ with actual type ‘Char’ |
| 13:20:00 | <lambdabot> | • In the expression: 'a' |
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| 13:20:16 | <merijn> | > let a:b="ha" in (a, b) |
| 13:20:17 | <lambdabot> | ('h',"a") |
| 13:22:30 | <famubu> | So that didn't give error because of lazy evaluation. And `Num` behaves like functions? |
| 13:22:44 | <geekosaur> | you're confusing compile time with run time |
| 13:23:32 | <geekosaur> | lazy evaluation doesn't apply to the compiler, only to runtime |
| 13:24:52 | <geekosaur> | the compiler assigns a type to the binding which won't work if actually used somewhere (instance resolution is determined at use sites, not binding sites) |
| 13:25:22 | <geekosaur> | somewhat infamously, this lets you write things that are nonsense but since they're "unreachable" there is no error. try "2=4" |
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| 13:28:30 | <famubu> | 😲 |
| 13:28:33 | <geekosaur> | I think the type of "a:b=4" is something like `Num [p] => (p : [p])`, but if you don't use `a` or `b` there is no use site for the pattern so the compiler doesn't try to discharge the `Num [p]` constraint (at which point it would have determined that there is no matching instance) |
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| 13:42:18 | <sim590> | I'm not sure if I should have asked here or on #archlinux, but I have a question regarding packaging a Haskell executable on Archlinux and the guidelines here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Haskell_package_guidelines. |
| 13:43:40 | <sim590> | My project doesn't have a Setup.hs file since its `build-type` is `Simple` (the default). I'm wondering if `arch-hs` is gonna understand that correctly and give working PKGBUILD as output. |
| 13:44:06 | <geekosaur> | probably #archlinux since they don't follow Haskell best practices |
| 13:44:41 | <geekosaur> | yeh, you need to ask them about it, it's a question about their build/packaging system, not Haskell |
| 13:45:07 | <geekosaur> | that said, best practice is to include a "dummy" Setup.hs to make life easier for distributors |
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| 13:46:20 | <sim590> | How can I generate one? Or is there documentation about how to write it? My first few attempts at searching for that were not successful. |
| 13:46:28 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jLSAsoLQ |
| 13:46:40 | <geekosaur> | it's boilerplate for the Simple build type |
| 13:47:12 | <geekosaur> | downstream distriibutors don't use cabal or stack, they run Setup.hs with appropriate parameters to integrate the package into their distribution |
| 13:47:35 | <sim590> | Is there a more complicated example I could find somewhere on the internet? My first searches only showed me oneliners like these which don't help me very much at making a more elaborate file. |
| 13:47:56 | <geekosaur> | if you need something mreo elaborate then youre not using the Simple build type |
| 13:49:23 | <sim590> | Hmmm. So I could just put that simple file and it would be enough, that's what you're suggesting? |
| 13:49:28 | <sim590> | I'll try that. |
| 13:50:12 | <sim590> | Interesting! That's way simpler than I thought! |
| 13:50:13 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 13:50:29 | <geekosaur> | any other questions you'll have to ask the Arch folks |
| 13:50:56 | <sim590> | Alright! That's very helpful though! Thanks! |
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| 13:52:39 | <sim590> | With this, I could avoid uploading on Hackage if I don't find it relevant. My package is a simple Card game, not a library. Not sure if that's relevant to put on Hackage. |
| 13:53:10 | <geekosaur> | up to you but it's generally good practice to put stuff on Hackage so people not on Arch can install it |
| 13:53:27 | <geekosaur> | and if it's worth packaging for a distro then it's worth packaging for Hackage imo |
| 13:53:37 | <sim590> | You're right. I'll try to do it also then! |
| 13:57:18 | <absence> | Disregarding the obvious contrivedness, why doesn't test3 work when test2 does, and can the definition of Test3 be changed to make it work? https://play.haskell.org/saved/xAfH2AaD |
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| 14:05:43 | <Leary> | absence: Try `data Test3 a where Test3 :: (a -> b) -> Test3 a`. The `b` is existential, not universal. That field is the type of something like `absurd` or `const undefined`. |
| 14:08:34 | <sim590> | which I gues is equivalent to: Test3 :: forall a b. (a -> b) -> Test3 a. |
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| 14:09:05 | <sim590> | But since it's the default, you don't need the explicit `forall a b.`. |
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| 14:15:14 | <absence> | Oh right, I was confused by the necessity of an explicit forall in one case, but not the other. If I use GADT syntax for Test, I don't need any foralls. Thanks! |
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| 18:54:19 | <Square> | A question about https://serokell.io/blog/introduction-to-free-monads |
| 18:55:08 | <Square> | I'm trying to work myself away from Free monads to be able to have a Monad that handles both MonadReader and MonadWriter at the same time. |
| 18:55:32 | <Square> | The article says "Of course, all of this is perfectly achievable with regular old monads and some newtype wrappers, but free monads let us get rid of a bit of boilerplate." |
| 18:56:16 | <Square> | I wonder if anyone know what the author means by "some newtype wrappers"? |
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| 18:57:08 | <Square> | (For a wrapping the DSL I assume, just not sure what that would look like) |
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| 19:24:08 | <int-e> | Square: I'd assume it's something like newtype RWT r w m a = RWT { unRWT :: ReaderT r (WriterT w m a) } deriving (Functor, Applicative, Monad, MonadReader r, MonadWriter w) |
| 19:24:47 | <int-e> | (so what you'd do with mtl or transformers) |
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| 19:30:36 | <Square> | int-e, I assume that is an answer on how I'd achieve Reader/Writer combined? My question was really how you, like the auther claims is possible, can create a Monad (using "some newtype wrappers") for the type of DSLs he describes in the article. |
| 19:30:52 | <Square> | author* |
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| 19:32:50 | <int-e> | so... how does mtl implement ReaderT? |
| 19:33:01 | <int-e> | and WriterT etc.? |
| 19:33:29 | <int-e> | (I'm skimming at best; not going to read the whole article, sorry) |
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| 19:34:20 | <Square> | int-e, all good. Thanks for trying. |
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| 19:35:32 | <Square> | i guess my problem is creating a monad for my DSL really. |
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| 19:37:45 | <int-e> | I mean, the mtl has a pattern of this: Define a type class for the DSL functions, then define a newtype that's either ad-hoc or wraps a stack of existing transformers (adding state etc. as needed), and then implement the type class for that particular newtype. |
| 19:37:57 | <int-e> | s/of this/for this/ |
| 19:39:01 | <int-e> | (I guess reader, state, and writer are bad examples in that the newtypes are ad-hoc.) |
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| 20:42:25 | <johnjaye> | int-e: happy new year. haven't seen you in awhile |
| 20:42:36 | <johnjaye> | probably because i forgot to put #math on my autojoin channel list |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-01-07.