Logs on 2025-01-12 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:22:28 | <monochrom> | Clearly, design patterns and anti-patterns depend on the language. |
| 00:23:14 | <monochrom> | I had a student who tried to write Haskell in Python. I gave them a very low mark. If you use Python, you play to the strength of Python. If you use Haskell, you play to the strength of Haskell. |
| 00:24:55 | <monochrom> | In that student's case, the assignment was to first use algebraic data types in Haskell to define a type for boolean expressions and functions for evaluations. Then the next question is "how would you code this up in Python?" |
| 00:26:02 | <monochrom> | Clearly, in Python you would not make an algebraic type, you would make a Not class, And class, Or class; and the evaluation function would be a common method. |
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| 00:26:23 | <c_wraith> | but then you've turned the expression problem sideways! |
| 00:26:48 | <c_wraith> | the python should be using the visitor pattern. :P |
| 00:27:01 | <monochrom> | But the student was too excited by Haskell, so they went overboard and translate Haskell pattern matching to Python. "if instanceof(e, Or) ... elif instanceof(e, And) .. elif ..." |
| 00:27:23 | <c_wraith> | so... they should have used the visitor pattern. |
| 00:27:55 | <monochrom> | I would be very impressed if they used the visitor pattern. |
| 00:28:23 | <c_wraith> | Huh. I guess the visitor pattern is sort of a catamorphism that uses algebras encoded as an object. |
| 00:28:35 | <monochrom> | For mere mortals, the composite pattern would be good enough and pretty easy to understand actually. |
| 00:29:17 | <monochrom> | But the whole point of Python and Java is if you write "instanceof" you're commiting a crime. |
| 00:30:42 | <c_wraith> | crimes against parametricity |
| 00:30:52 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 00:31:45 | <c_wraith> | Lots of python code commits crimes against parametricity |
| 00:32:02 | <c_wraith> | It tries to be "friendly" instead of "type safe" |
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| 00:33:09 | <c_wraith> | that's less common in java, but not absent. (Same root cause...) |
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| 00:46:23 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> c_wraith re:catamorphism https://www.haskellforall.com/2021/01/the-visitor-pattern-is-essentially-same.html this is relevant I guess |
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| 03:25:46 | <Square> | How would I write a performance test for a "value". I want to compute it N times and see how long it takes |
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| 03:46:30 | <Square> | I guess my question is, how do I make sure a value isn't cached, but instead recalculated |
| 03:47:18 | <c_wraith> | write the thing that calculates it as a function. use criterion to pass the function its input. |
| 03:49:40 | <c_wraith> | criterion uses module boundaries to prevent inlining so that GHC doesn't notice it's passing the same argument to the same function over and over. |
| 03:50:01 | <c_wraith> | it also does the benchmarking. Kind of like that's what it was designed to do |
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| 03:58:19 | <Square> | c_wraith, thanks. Yeah, got criterion up and running |
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| 04:45:26 | <Leary> | tomsmeding: `null . drop 1 . nub` |
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| 04:55:27 | <Leary> | (you can also replace `nub` with `group` if you want the performance to be more obvious, but they should be pretty similar) |
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| 10:07:35 | <tomsmeding> | Leary: cute! |
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| 13:56:20 | <bailsman> | ...yes I've found many cases in which I thought I needed an existential type. I'm glad this is a rite of passage. Although, I still often think I need it, so I'm not sure if I've fully completed the rite yet |
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| 14:08:40 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> bailsman: agree, I haven’t felt like I needed an existential type in a long time |
| 14:08:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> usually RankN solves most things |
| 14:14:05 | <hellwolf> | would you also need ImpredicativeTypes in that case? |
| 14:14:49 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> in what case? |
| 14:15:11 | <hellwolf> | I sometimes create an array of AnyX existential data types. |
| 14:15:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> no you don’t really need them usually |
| 14:15:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> At least I don’t |
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| 14:16:55 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> I don’t really run into situations where I need that flexibility tbh |
| 14:17:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> do you have an example? |
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| 14:17:21 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> (that is not just a toy example I mean) |
| 14:17:34 | <hellwolf> | yes, I use it in places |
| 14:18:03 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> any time I thought I needed these, I could usually slightly redesign and vastly simplify |
| 14:18:27 | <hellwolf> | okay, but I am not sure if were complicated in the first place |
| 14:18:28 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> esp. because error messages and inference becomes a joke with impredicative types |
| 14:18:40 | <hellwolf> | oh, I meant existential types |
| 14:18:51 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> (same as with GADTs, though people tell me they have their uses) |
| 14:18:55 | <hellwolf> | impredicative types I don't actively use, but passively use from a library that requiring it |
| 14:19:22 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> though GADTs are a superset of existential types right?? |
| 14:19:31 | <haskellbridge> | <Profpatsch> s/??/?/ |
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| 14:23:06 | <hellwolf> | I have never heard of that |
| 14:23:12 | <hellwolf> | (forall a. (t a -> r)) ≅ ((exists a. t a) -> r) <-- this is what I know of. |
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| 14:29:38 | <ncf> | data Exists t where pack :: forall a. t a → Exists t |
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| 15:04:53 | <kaol> | Looks like GHC started complaining about non-exhaustive pattern matches on lazy pattern matching in 9.2. I may have been abusing lazy pattern matching to just create escape hatches where I was certain that it would always match so I guess I can't complain too much. |
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| 15:30:35 | <probie> | GHC has become very opinionated in recent years about how Haskell should be written. I look forward to when they decide to remove `error` and `undefined` from base :p |
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| 15:42:57 | <tomsmeding> | probie: in warnings, or in actual backwards-incompatible changes? |
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| 16:48:07 | <smiesner> | time for another happy parser generator question: how do i parse a source file after creating the non-terminal and production rules? GHC shows in Parser.y many %name parsers, called via a runParser function, generated by happy. I don't have %this function. how can i generate it or something similar so the AST get's created correctly? |
| 16:48:19 | <smiesner> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/e2520df3fffa0cf22fb19c5fb872832d11c07d35/compiler/GHC/Parser.y |
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| 16:56:28 | <smiesner> | a different approach is shared here: https://gist.github.com/heitor-lassarote/9cc4203990352f5df5f6b84da9291df9 |
| 16:57:08 | <smiesner> | however it seems this parser always expects to parse 'decs'. i think the approach in ghc is a bit nicer and better to read? |
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| 17:16:35 | <smiesner> | or does GHC just start at the non-terminal Module and goes with each production rule into smaller non-terminals? |
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| 17:47:20 | <probie> | tomsmeding: In actual backwards-incompatible changes, although I don't actually think it will happen. However, I think it might plausible in 5-10 years that `head` and `tail` disappear. |
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| 17:55:52 | <probie> | I find it really annoying when I'm trying to use GHCi as a calculator that something "silly" like `liftA2 (,) head tail [1..10]` generates 10 lines of warning before giving me my result unless I run it with `-Wno-x-partial` |
| 17:56:25 | <probie> | (that's on 9.10.1) |
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| 17:58:42 | <probie> | It's one thing to do it for programs being compiled, but to have it as the default for the interactive environment just seems _way_ too opinionated |
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| 18:18:25 | <heichro> | @pl \x -> x /= '.' |
| 18:18:25 | <lambdabot> | ('.' /=) |
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| 18:32:38 | <hellwolf> | I am a bit confounded by haddock's one behavior: I use things like "module Prelude.Linear" in a module A, but sometimes it include all of its symbols in the docs of module A, but with my own module say "module YulDSL.Core" in the same module A, the symbols are not included in the docs of module A... |
| 18:32:53 | <hellwolf> | what affected the behaviour? |
| 18:33:55 | <hellwolf> | see: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/inWDbHu5 |
| 18:36:18 | <hellwolf> | or, perhaps rephrase it a simpler phrase: when would haddoc inline a module's docs in another module that includes it? |
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| 18:36:50 | <monochrom> | For now my hypothesis is that the difference is in importing only part of Prelude.Linear but all of YulDSL.Core |
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| 18:37:17 | <monochrom> | I have something else to do so I am too lazy to test it for now. :) |
| 18:37:38 | <geekosaur> | when the module has an `OPTIONS_HADDOCK not-home` it'll get inlined, for one |
| 18:38:15 | <hellwolf> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear-base-0.4.0/docs/src/Prelude.Linear.html <-- this is the source of Prelude.LInear |
| 18:38:20 | <hellwolf> | I am trying to spot the difference |
| 18:38:25 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.7/docs/src/Data.Map.Internal.html |
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| 18:38:53 | <hellwolf> | interesting, let me try |
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| 18:39:01 | <geekosaur> | you'll see it has "not-home", so haddock inlines its definitions into importing modules (in this case Data.Map) |
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| 18:42:04 | <hellwolf> | hmm, it doesn't seem to work |
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| 18:46:48 | <hellwolf> | very mysterious now |
| 18:47:10 | <hellwolf> | I don't suppose these matter: |
| 18:47:10 | <hellwolf> | {-# OPTIONS_GHC -Wno-dodgy-exports -Wno-unused-imports #-} |
| 18:47:16 | <hellwolf> | what are "doggy-exports" anyways. |
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| 18:51:20 | <hellwolf> | | If multiple modules fit the criteria, then one is chosen at random. |
| 18:51:34 | <monochrom> | Who-ordered-that |
| 18:52:31 | <tomsmeding> | probie: ah, I'm with you on the -Wx-partial; I don't like it either. Yes, I know that these functions are partial. It's like lesson 2 of any Haskell course. |
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| 18:53:29 | <monochrom> | This is where people who want Haskell to be a dependently typed total language clash with people who want Haskell to be a programming language. |
| 18:53:47 | <tomsmeding> | the tricky thing with -Wx-partial is that you can't even turn it off very well in packages; sure, you can set {-# OPTIONS -Wno-x-partial #-}, but now your code generates a new warning on current GHCs that don't yet know about that warning! |
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| 18:54:01 | <tomsmeding> | and using CPP for this is just way overblown |
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| 18:54:40 | <tomsmeding> | in one instance I ended up doing -Wno-unrecognised-warning-flags -Wno-x-partial but that's also icky |
| 18:54:47 | <tomsmeding> | this stuff belongs in a linter |
| 18:55:04 | <tomsmeding> | the sadder that the most popular linter is even worse in this regard :) |
| 18:55:38 | <monochrom> | This is why I tell people that hlint is not analogous to C lint. |
| 18:55:44 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: if you want Haskell to be a dependently-typed total language you have bigger fish to fry than head and tail |
| 18:55:52 | <hellwolf> | | The exception to this rule is when the re-exported module is declared with the hide attribute (see Module Attributes), in which case the module is never cross-referenced; the contents are always expanded in place in the re-exporting module. |
| 18:56:10 | <hellwolf> | this is the definitive answer. the Haddock doc actually eplains it well, let me give it a try. |
| 18:56:15 | <hellwolf> | https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/latest/markup.html#re-exporting-entire-module |
| 18:56:20 | <monochrom> | C lint actually detects code smell (e.g., if (i = j)). hlint is just puny style. |
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| 18:57:03 | <monochrom> | C lint : hlint :: Java classes : Haskell classess |
| 18:57:09 | <monochrom> | as in, totally unrelated |
| 18:57:13 | <tomsmeding> | there is a place in this world for style linters, but it's not the same as "it's not bad enough for a warning" stuff |
| 18:58:36 | <monochrom> | C lint : hlint :: Java classes : Haskell classess :: GC heap : priority queue heap |
| 18:58:50 | <hellwolf> | "{-# OPTIONS_HADDOCK hide #-}" <-- this does the trick. THE END. Thanks folks. |
| 18:58:52 | hellwolf | duck for food |
| 18:58:58 | <tomsmeding> | 🦆 |
| 18:59:13 | <monochrom> | Do ducks eat haddock? |
| 18:59:55 | <monochrom> | "No, but the rubber duck method works for haddock questions. Does that count?" |
| 19:00:04 | <tomsmeding> | I'd guess live haddock are quite a bit too large for a duck |
| 19:00:53 | <tomsmeding> | given "the vast majority of haddocks caught in the United Kingdom measure between 30 and 70 cm" |
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| 20:12:16 | <hellwolf> | let's avoid geoduck joke though |
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| 21:09:57 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> why does "instance (Ord ddata, Typeable ddata) => Command (Command'CreateBuild ddata) BuildID where" typecheck |
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| 21:10:06 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> but the same without the "Ord ddata" doesnt? |
| 21:10:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> "could not deduce Typeable k arising from the superclasses of an instance declaration" |
| 21:13:33 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> oh, because its forall k, so saying "forall (ddata :: Type). (Typeable ddata)" does it |
| 21:14:54 | <tomsmeding> | the joy of -XPolyKinds |
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| 21:28:02 | <c_wraith> | So that performance issue with psqueues' OrdPSQ that I ran into during the aoc? I decided to report it, and so I've looked into it a bit further... For that use case, OrdPSQ is slower than a sorted list. |
| 21:28:17 | <c_wraith> | (HashPSQ is actually fast) |
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| 21:39:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> is "unsafeCoerce" safe if behind a let binding that is only forced if safe? I have to first check type equality with "typeOf == typeOf", then "unsafeCoerce", which is safe since i know its the same |
| 21:39:17 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> im working with existential types btw |
| 21:39:47 | <monochrom> | Yes that's safe. But then you would use Data.Dynamic which does exactly that for you so you don't have to write the dirty code yourself! |
| 21:40:00 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> ill look into that |
| 21:40:18 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> after i get the initial version working :) want to write the dirty code myself first |
| 21:43:36 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> this really feels like beating GHC over the head lmao |
| 21:43:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> this is fun |
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| 21:44:54 | <tomsmeding> | I once wrote code that used higher-rank polymorphism to poke bytes in a MutableByteArray# |
| 21:44:59 | <tomsmeding> | that was fun |
| 21:45:29 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> im doing a event sourcing thing, but i need to be able to pass around existential messages that also must be ToJSON :) |
| 21:45:38 | <tomsmeding> | it was probably pretty slow despite the MagicHash stuff because the typeclass polymorphic code couldn't be specialised mostly |
| 21:45:50 | <tomsmeding> | but never mind that |
| 21:46:21 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> "haskell programmers dont care about performance" <- me while shitting on python for being slow and writing haskell |
| 21:46:46 | <tomsmeding> | that quote is not about python :p |
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| 22:13:42 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> its quite funny how i essentially ended up implementing effects but slower |
| 22:13:49 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> since it all goes over channels |
| 22:14:47 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> and i wont say _worse_ im quite proud of my little project that could |
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| 22:17:32 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> monochrom: oh yeah Data.Dynamic wont work for me :) |
| 22:17:49 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> i need the dynamicism on the outside not on the inside where the Dynamic type occurs |
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| 22:18:06 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> and even there i need guaranteed ToJSON, Eq and Show |
| 22:18:12 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> soo, i gotta do it manually |
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| 22:50:30 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> well, effects and callbacks is working out like shit |
| 22:51:14 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> unless i capture the env into the callbacks, which is horribly unsafe most likely |
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