Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2025-01-17 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:24:18 <sm> @where+ fast-haskell-redux https://jtobin.io/fast-haskell-redux performance optimisations (2025)
02:24:18 <lambdabot> Nice!
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03:26:05 <homo> hi, I have some progress trying to bootstrap microhs from hugs, currently compile-time errors are fixed, but runtime is broken, I hope someone can continue from here, because this is as far as I can go https://0.vern.cc/Mm.patch
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03:29:40 <Leary> homo: I suggest you put this in a microhs issue; it'll just get lost in here.
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03:31:33 <homo> I don't have github account, so I sent this patch by e-mail to Lennart
03:31:58 <Leary> I guess that works too.
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03:33:06 <JuanDaugherty> microhs looks ill conceived
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03:35:33 <homo> well, microhs is the biggest implementation of haskell that might be cleanly bootstrapped from source
03:36:08 <JuanDaugherty> i doubt that
03:36:31 <JuanDaugherty> specifically i doubt that "cleanly" can be given an objective sense
03:36:56 <homo> clean bootstrap means that it doesn't depend on bootstrap binaries
03:37:15 <homo> #bootstrappable can bootstrap modern gcc by using 200-byte binary
03:37:28 <homo> reviewable 200-byte binary that is
03:37:36 <homo> that is what makes bootstrap clean
03:37:41 <JuanDaugherty> in addition to big fat thing having bounds period, practically
03:38:43 <JuanDaugherty> while ill conceived, these new infos certainly indicate entertainment value
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03:39:43 <JuanDaugherty> big fat thing that doesn just need to book two seats but charter a damn flight
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03:43:02 <jackdk> homo: does this mean that you have a good bootstrap from C to Hugs?
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03:45:55 <homo> jackdk yes, since I'm using guix
03:46:28 <jackdk> Huh, the last I heard was someone's experiments with nhc98 to bootstrap Hugs. Did something change?
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03:47:20 <homo> that person lost interest, expressing disappointment of lack of interest from haskell community in bootstrapping
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04:24:08 <jackdk> homo: cool, I see you contributed the Hugs fix to Guix. I had formed the (possibly mistaken) impression that it carried blobs in its source - was it really just that little patch?
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04:26:09 <jackdk> Also, might be worth adding to https://discourse.haskell.org/t/keeping-hugs-alive/7737/5 ?
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04:33:34 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I use Hugs almost daily since my laptop broke, and I'm glad people are still working on it! Used to use Miranda but that got too slow too fast
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04:34:18 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The nix-on-droid build of Hugs also works well
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04:35:22 <homo> jackdk suprisingly yes, it's just gcc-specific internal that should not be used
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04:41:14 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Also I found two issues related to type level stuff. For example, trying to encode mendler-style catamorphisms Hugs fails to typecheck mcata, in particular it outputs "INTERNAL ERROR: depTypeExp"
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04:43:07 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The other issue is that a forall is not allowed as the first thing appearing in a type declaration, ie. ˋtype Example a = forall r. (a -> r) -> rˋ is disallowed, but its equivalent newtype is allowed. I think this is a syntax thing and not an inherent limitation
04:43:40 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Note that reproducing both requires disabling Haskell 98 mode
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04:47:20 <homo> Bowuigi hugs also doesn't allow forall in instance declarations, in my patch you can find I duplicated a lot of code, doing nothing but removing forall
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04:49:20 <homo> jackdk I use netsurf without javascript to avoid arbitrary code autoupdate and autoexecution, so I can only read discourse, but not post there
04:49:59 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Do you mean something like QuantifiedInstances , like, having "forall a. Eq (f a)" or something like that?
04:52:33 <homo> Bowuigi for example "data State s a = S (s -> (a, s)); instance forall s . Functor (State s) where" is where I have to remove forall: "data State s a = S (s -> (a, s)); instance Functor (State s) where"
04:53:03 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh also the depTypeExp issue happens with every System F omega encoded existential, so "newtype Exists f = Ex { unEx :: forall r. (forall a. (f a -> r) -> r) }" is the smallest example of this bug I can think of
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04:53:56 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> homo Oh I haven't seen that syntax before, Haskell already quantifies variables there so maybe it is a limitation of something else in the bootstrap chain?
04:55:38 <homo> Bowuigi microhs requires "forall" in all declarations because Lennart is lazy to make it optional, so I have 2 copies of same code, first copy is read by hugs and second copy is read by mhs, it's absolutely the same duplicated code
04:56:17 <homo> from his own words that is, Lennart said in his presentation that he is lazy
04:56:38 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> re:depTypeExp Oh you don't even need the f, "newtype E = E { unE :: forall r. (forall a. a -> r) -> r }" is a simpler example of this bug
04:57:14 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh, would it be possible to patch Hugs to allow that? It should just ignore it because the behaviour is the same
04:57:42 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> re:microhs-hugs homo ^
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04:59:20 <homo> I have no experience with yacc and I already failed patching hugs's src/parser.y to support BangPatterns, so instead in my patch I created function "hugsBang" for both hugs, ghc and microhs because I don't want to remove optimization that bang patterns brings
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05:00:17 <haskellbridge> <maerwald> Hi homo
05:00:32 <homo> hi
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05:02:34 <homo> Bowuigi if you have experience with yacc, there are a lot of syntactic things that you might be able fix to avoid patching so much of microhs's code, but otherwise my interest in hugs is just to have small language to bootstrap bigger language
05:03:11 <homo> what really needs upgrade in hugs is its memory management, it crashes in deep recursions, making it tricky to have working bootstrap
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05:03:52 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Huh? Never seen it crash due to that
05:04:28 <homo> another big pain is not just that hugs's libraries are old, there are a lot of annoying name clashes and I have no idea which names to prefer and which to avoid in bootstrap process
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05:05:52 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I have no experience with yacc sadly, but some sed/awk could fix your instance forall issues. Just keep the original code around and at build time run a script that replaces "instance forall [^\.]." by just "instance", you don't have to remove them by hand
05:07:49 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Also play with Hugs' options, some may help with the recursion issues you're having
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05:08:50 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Also which name clashes? The lack of applicative and functor operators is annoying but that can be solved easily
05:09:44 <homo> thanks for idea, but I don't remember if I did something else besides removing forall from instance
05:12:27 <homo> Bowuigi for example, System.IO.Error clashes with Control.Exception
05:12:39 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Diff is your friend here, any changes will stand out
05:13:23 <homo> Hugs.Prelude also clashes with Control.Exception
05:13:52 <homo> it also clashes with Data.Foldable and Data.Functor
05:14:09 <homo> s/it/Hugs.Prelude/
05:14:56 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> That's so odd, why did they do that. How feasible is porting the microhs base library to Hugs? Using Hugs primitives, ofc
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05:16:35 <homo> it already reuses some of microhs base library to avoid code duplication, I'd say it's just tedious to patch every individual module, and some modules are extremely tedious because of language extensions
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05:20:09 <homo> also keep in mind libraries that hugs uses are the same libraries that ghc used 20 years ago, so if someone decides to fork hugs, there is a lot of tedious work to keep libraries up-to-date
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05:26:27 <homo> Bowuigi anyway, those name clashes are very persistent, you either have to use qualified imports or to explicitly shut up Hugs.Prelude, but you don't want to explicitly shut up Hugs.Prelude because code read by ghc and microhs will not compile
05:30:35 <homo> reading the source code of hugs a lot of modules from base package already use primitives from hugsbase package, but that is not enough to shut name clashes
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05:34:48 <homo> I don't think it's a good idea to port microhs base without adjusting hugsbase first, and it might be necessary to also adjust hugs interpreter itself before adjusting hugsbase
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06:09:28 <jle`> huh kind of funny but (<>) for Maybe (First a) seems to be slower than (<>) for Endo (Maybe a)
06:09:42 <jle`> (and applying the second to Nothing)
06:09:52 <jle`> and using Endo . const . Just
06:10:08 <jle`> i guess it just compiles better? i would have expected them to end up being the same
06:10:34 <jle`> i'm even doing x <> (y <> ...) the good way
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06:18:03 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> homo just provide a wrapper that exports the safe parts of Hugs.Prelude and overimport just in case, that's the best option I can think of rn
06:19:24 <Leary> jle`: `Data.Monoid.First` exists for a reason; `Maybe . Data.Semigroup.First` can't just stop at the first `Just`.
06:20:51 <Leary> (the other option is to just use `<|>` on `Maybe`)
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06:34:24 <homo> Bowuigi unfortunately it works that way only within wrapper :(
06:35:21 <homo> anyway, it doesn't really matter as I got entire microhs to compile and my current problem is runtime error
06:35:46 <homo> after runtime is fixed it'll be perfect time for cosmetic changes
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06:37:39 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Wdym "within wrapper"?
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06:39:25 <homo> MHSPrelude.hs and MiniPrelude.hs
06:41:48 <homo> ideally some group would fork hugs and modernize it, as it has ugly practices of the past, take Monad class for example, there is no MonadFail class and fail is part of Monad class
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06:58:30 <homo> Bowuigi anyway, that runtime error is an exception raised by microhs, there is also a significant difference that in hugs it's "data Exception = ..." while in microhs it's "class Exception e where", furthermore because of name clashes I have no idea from which module to import "catch" and "try", and I am lucky that "type SomeException = Exception" even works
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07:02:31 <homo> but microhs is so fantastic at reporting where that error is coming from that I can't figure out what to do
07:04:05 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Oh yeah the exception system changed somewhere down the line
07:04:37 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> The Hugs equivalent to the modern exception system is "throwDyn" and "catchDyn"
07:05:11 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> As the name implies, they use Dynamic instead of an Exception typeclass
07:06:15 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Exceptions in Hugs are the built-in, Haskell ones, so custom exception systems built on top of SomeException won't work
07:07:26 <homo> I really have no experience with neither of those
07:09:12 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Most of what I know about exceptions comes from reading the source+docs of the two base libraries and the source of smalltt, which uses custom exceptions
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07:10:23 <hololeap> homo: there's a decent blog post about ghc exception handling here: https://tech.fpcomplete.com/blog/2018/04/async-exception-handling-haskell/
07:10:30 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> You should be able to create a version of SomeException on Hugs and use throwDyn/catchDyn for flow control, not sure how hard would that be tho
07:12:13 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> It's also glue code you can't skip because both exception handling systems are very different
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07:20:56 <homo> Bowuigi if that's so it's a puzzle how comes hugs doesn't throw compile-time error because of alias "type SomeException = Exception"
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07:24:05 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Exception is a datatype in hugs
07:24:27 <homo> yes, I said so earlier
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07:28:55 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Why would it give a compile time error then?
07:29:06 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> That part is correct
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07:41:09 <homo> Bowuigi because you said I can't skip implementing SomeExpection as Dynamic and throwDyn/catchDyn
07:42:40 <homo> hololeap thanks, it's not clear where Dynamic is used though
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07:44:14 <hololeap> sorry, I wasn't following the whole conversation
07:44:39 <homo> for async I remember go has some context and instead of throwing exception you simply send message over channel (CSP-style concurrency), wonder if that can simplify things in haskell
07:44:44 <hololeap> just ignore it if it's not relevant
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07:53:23 <homo> hm, grepping source code of both microhs and hugs I think I know what throws exception
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07:56:50 <hololeap> SomeException in Control.Exceptions is a newtype wrapper that uses the ExistentialQuantification language extension to allow it to wrap any type that's part of the Exception class
07:57:42 <hololeap> data SomeException = forall e. (Exception e, HasExceptionContext) => SomeException e
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07:59:26 <hololeap> nvm it's not actually a newtype
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08:04:23 <hololeap> I'm just bringing this up because `type SomeException = Exception` doesn't make sense to me
08:04:47 <homo> grepping suggest there is nothing that throws exception other than IO for opening and writing files
08:04:54 <homo> s/suggest/suggests/
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08:10:27 <homo> actually I found second potential source of exception - unsafeCoerce
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08:12:40 <homo> this is going to be pain to fix, basically convert everything related to GHC.Types(Any) into Data.Dynamic(Dynamic)
08:13:29 <homo> and again I have no experience neither with unsafeCoerce, nor with Any nor with Dynamic
08:15:34 <homo> Bowuigi if this is the only reason for runtime failure, fixing it is all that needs to be done to get microhs bootstrapped from hugs, alternatively extending hugs to support GHC.Types(Any) is another possible option, but I think it's more tedious to do than to just adjust microhs
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08:19:14 <homo> still, it's really ugly to rely on dynamic typing for storing combinators
08:20:33 <homo> if you read PrimTable.hs you know what I mean
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08:35:50 <jle`> Leary: aw man
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08:36:34 <jle`> i just noticed Data.Monoid.First
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08:37:03 <jle`> i use Data.Semigroup.First for so much stuff
08:37:12 <jle`> well, Maybe (Data.Semigroup.First a)
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08:39:05 <jle`> okay yeah using Data.Monoid.Alt i get the same speed as Endo
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11:36:37 <kaol> Is there some ghci flag to make it show Show output with some white space formatting? Even a simple line break on comma would help a lot.
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11:39:21 <tomsmeding> kaol: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pretty-show-1.10/docs/Text-Show-Pretty.html ?
11:39:40 <Leary> kaol: You can set `-interactive-print yourShow`.
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11:53:44 <Leary> kaol: E.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3LetBVey
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14:20:00 <chiselfuse> ultra noob question. what do `x=x` or `x=x*2` do in haskell? i tried using `x` after defining it this way and it just hangs. is it looping forever?
14:20:55 <tomsmeding> chiselfuse: you're defining x in terms of itself :)
14:21:03 <tomsmeding> > 1 : 2 : []
14:21:04 <lambdabot> [1,2]
14:21:07 <tomsmeding> > let x = 1 : x in x
14:21:08 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
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14:22:29 <chiselfuse> i don't understand any of that so i'll just read ahead in my book for now
14:22:48 <tomsmeding> chiselfuse: the main message is that `x = x` doesn't do _nothing_
14:23:09 <tomsmeding> in other programming languages, if you mention x on the right-hand side of an assignment to x, that right-most x just means "the previous value of x"
14:23:29 <tomsmeding> in haskell, there is only one x, so your value for x references x itself!
14:23:41 <tomsmeding> if x is a number, that's nonsense, so it indeed loops forever
14:23:56 <tomsmeding> for other data types, this can make perfect sense
14:24:24 <tomsmeding> the example I just showed, `let x = 1 : x in x`, constructs a list called 'x' which starts with 1, and then continues with... x
14:24:45 <tomsmeding> so it's 1, and then -- what does x start with? well, 1, so another 1, and then -- what does x start with? 1, so another 1, and... etc.
14:24:49 <chiselfuse> tomsmeding: if it doesn't do nothing then it does something? are you referring to the possibility that this definition does something in terms of side effects which is why it loops forever instead of just telling me it will never evaluate?
14:25:17 <tomsmeding> if you compile your haskell program, it will probably print "<<loop>>" instead of looping forever for something like this :)
14:25:33 <tomsmeding> in principle, it would loop forever, but the runtime is sometimes smart enough to detect that and throw a <<loop>> exception instead
14:25:43 <tomsmeding> in the interpreter (ghci), that probably doesn't work
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14:35:22 <merijn> chiselfuse: How do you expect GHC to know that it will never evaluate? :)
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14:36:10 <merijn> There are some basic checks to catch the simplest cases, but in general your asking GHC to solve the (famously unsolvable) halting problem :p
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16:53:06 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm what's the import to replace "*" by "Type"?
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16:55:07 <glguy> Data.Kind
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16:56:59 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty!
16:57:01 <spew> I think you want the NoStarIsType extension
16:57:23 <geekosaur> both
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16:58:19 <geekosaur> one for GHC to use `Type`, the other so you can use it
16:59:27 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah neat, thank you!
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17:14:02 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> {-# LANGUAGE GADTs, DataKinds, NoStarIsType, KindSignatures #-}
17:14:02 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/SLhYEhHTJnvdxEpqFwluIqDU/4YBZpIuH0YU (12 lines)
17:14:27 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> how could I explicitly annotate the last match of "vTail" to make a "Nil" value of "Vec a n"
17:15:55 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah the problem is a bit more serious
17:16:24 <Leary> That case is excluded by the type of the argument; just drop it?
17:17:43 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right nevermind, I misunderstood
17:17:55 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> no way to pass "Nil" because we require "Succ n"
17:17:55 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ty!@
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17:19:17 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> is there a way to explicitly annotate the type of "vTail" with "a :: Type" and "n :: Nat"?
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17:19:33 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> the work of "a :: Type" is usually done by "forall a" I think
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17:20:58 <Leary> `vTail :: forall (a :: Type) (n :: Nat). ...`
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17:21:29 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> very cool, thanks a lot!
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17:23:52 <Leary> You can get this function for free as a field, BTW: `Cons :: { vHead :: a, vTail :: Vec a n } -> Vec a (Succ n)`
17:24:53 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> oooo neat!
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17:30:16 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm
17:30:26 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> is the following function possible at all?
17:30:26 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/GivjAOUJRTejXEzvgiSSvzqy/32228VJtd_8 (4 lines)
17:30:33 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> the last line will fail to parse "->"
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17:33:06 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> I assume that's not Haskell because you're working with Type on a normal function
17:33:40 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> it's haskell, see this piece of code for the definition of "Vec"
17:34:11 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> returning "t" on the last line will make a valid function
17:35:22 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> Huh, maybe some type wrapper over arrows works then
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18:18:25 <Leary> thirdofmay: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2Z1gryW2
18:19:13 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> woah neat! thank you! was going about installing agda to see how "agda2hs" did it lol
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19:07:59 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> That makes me wonder how did it work on the first place, is this type support in functions some new feature?
19:08:42 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> it just uses the mentioned type families
19:08:55 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i mean
19:08:59 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> language extensions
19:09:33 <haskellbridge> <Bowuigi> That's so odd
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19:16:57 <Leary> Bowuigi: It worked because `TypeInType`---there's no kind error. GHC doesn't know of any non-bottom /values/ of /type/ `Type`, but if you take one as an argument you're free to return it.
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21:04:46 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm
21:04:56 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> is it possible to write something like this in haskell?
21:04:56 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/nrHaYMVNJVTbkERRMZVHrUfZ/MuJn5bDBuW0 (3 lines)
21:05:14 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> +:: Type
21:05:33 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> I get illegal polymorphic type
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21:05:55 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> which makes sense because that's one universe higher than "Type"
21:06:00 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> is it possible to write something like this in haskell?
21:06:00 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/neYpbolADunqHNZVAEVEzVmd/tkzoiq-k2Wo (3 lines)
21:07:51 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm wait, is it?
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21:08:55 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm yes, "forall (a :: Type) (b :: Type). a -> b" does not itself have type "Type"
21:09:23 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> anyone have suggestions on how we could encode such a type family?
21:09:54 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ultimately am trying to get an analog to
21:09:56 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/matrix.org/kBqPWoKqZUTyiUEsoYvUgTHC/_qzQbc_U3jo/image.png
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21:10:21 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> uh not sure if irc gets images, here:
21:10:21 <haskellbridge> ... long message truncated: https://kf8nh.com/_heisenbridge/media/kf8nh.com/bfslQLLKLEWmGEEOBGPzXZoN/W2_SWeb9p5U (4 lines)
21:11:00 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> where "B" is a binary type-level operator
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21:15:24 <geekosaur> irc gets a media link
21:15:35 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> ah neato
21:15:39 <geekosaur> also I see an edit of a large message back there, please be careful
21:16:13 <energizer> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.7/docs/src/Data.Set.Internal.html#toList what does this Ord stuff mean? can i only toList a Set if its elements are Ord?
21:16:20 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> edited and unedited it back heheh
21:17:12 <geekosaur> Ord is there because the elements must be Ord (comparable) to make a Set of them
21:17:30 <geekosaur> because a Set is a tree stored in ascending key order
21:18:11 <energizer> is there a set type that doesn't have the Ord requirement?
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21:18:55 <energizer> (eg by using hashing instead of ordering)
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21:19:20 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> all datatypes have an injection into the naturals, don't think so
21:20:06 <geekosaur> HashSet in unordered-containers, but that replaces Ord with Hashable
21:20:31 <geekosaur> thirdofmay, no they don't. what's the injection for a polymorphic function?
21:21:05 <geekosaur> (well, strictly speaking you could Gödelize, but that leads to out of memory conditions)
21:21:10 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> the universe is countable by virtue of limited machine memory
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21:21:29 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> so any polymorphic function is indexable by its countable universe (if we're talking datatypes, not types in general)
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21:24:14 <energizer> if two HashSets are equal, do their toList values necessarily produce lists in the same order? how does that work?
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21:25:03 <tomsmeding> energizer: the unordered-containers library has the following note in its docs: "Note that, in the presence of hash collisions, equal HashMaps may behave differently, i.e. extensionality may be violated:"
21:25:21 <tomsmeding> referring specifically to toList being different
21:25:32 <tomsmeding> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers-0.2.20/docs/Data-HashMap-Strict.html#t:HashMap
21:26:56 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> just to be clear: the statement is about datatypes, understood as type whose terms are turing-machine processable. it's not true of all types
21:27:27 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> by turing-machine processable I mean, accessible in finite time by a turing-machine
21:28:09 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> or traversable in finite time
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21:28:51 <energizer> tomsmeding: interesting, thanks
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21:32:02 <energizer> i guess to make an extensional toList they could accept a comparison function to decide on the traversal order
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22:50:46 <EvanR> limiting yourself to finite data i haskell is a bit limiting goya
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22:51:50 <EvanR> infinite data might have non-countable possible values, for some value of possible
22:52:30 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> hm right but the statement specifically targets types whose terms are finitely traversable
22:52:49 <EvanR> what statement
22:52:50 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> so there might be infinitely possible values, but as long as any given value is traversable in finite time, it is a datatype
22:53:16 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> this one
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22:53:28 <EvanR> "traversability of a value" is a bit weird
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22:53:34 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> this is not necessarily the case for e.g. values of coinductive types
22:53:43 <EvanR> how do you traverse a function value with or without finite time
22:54:03 <c_wraith> newtype Hyper a b = H (Hyper b a -> b)
22:54:09 <c_wraith> have fun with that one.
22:54:14 <c_wraith> It's secretly useful!
22:54:24 <EvanR> when you said "this one" there was nothing posted before you then said "this is not necessarily the case" maybe the bridge lost it
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22:57:03 <c_wraith> Also, there are only countably many Haskell values for practical reasons like programs being countable and the total amount of input a program can receive being countable.
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22:58:27 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> EvanR: oh ok well, the statement is that terms/values of a polymorphic function type are indexable by the indexability of a constructible universe
22:58:40 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> a countable universe
22:59:00 <EvanR> constructible or countable?
22:59:12 <monochrom> c_wraith: My mind breaks with Hyper. I have only thought up and used newtype D a = Ctor (D a -> a).
22:59:22 <EvanR> there are countably many haskell programs, and countably many statements in any mathematical theory
22:59:34 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> for the sake of specificity I'll say countable but I think constructible may be used rigorously interchangeably
22:59:36 <EvanR> which doesn't stop people believing in uncountability
22:59:57 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> I am not convinced there are countably many statements in any mathematical theory
23:00:01 <EvanR> countable and constructible is certainly not the same thing
23:00:19 <monochrom> And on second thought, I am not even sure I can take credit. My purpose was to make a newtype to allow the like of (\x -> x x), and the error message literally inspires that definition!
23:00:41 <EvanR> formal languages come with grammar rules which limit you to a countable number of sentences
23:00:45 <monochrom> "I thank GHC for suggesting this newtype."
23:00:52 <EvanR> haskell being an example of one
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23:01:38 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> right, e.g. a language with the judgment 'x is a value of type Real Number' does not have countably many statements I think
23:02:04 <EvanR> that's mixing concepts
23:02:23 <EvanR> jumping to another level of abstraction, beyond the syntax
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23:02:47 <monochrom> We know of at least two theories (aka models) of programming, and they disagree on countability as well as other things. The moral is that you choose a theory to suit a purpose, not for Platonic "absolute" "truth".
23:02:56 <EvanR> as far as real numbers go it's a pretty nutty way to specify one xD
23:03:02 <EvanR> usually you need a language for that
23:03:19 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> well if a theory is a set of axioms and derivable sentences, then we should admit such a language (the one having the judgment 'x is a value of type Real Number')
23:04:06 <geekosaur> there are countably many values of IEEE float or double, though. you're limited to some form of "computable reals" on any physical computer
23:04:12 <EvanR> is "x" there a metavariable or literally x
23:04:26 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> geekosaur: the computable reals are embeddable in the naturals!
23:04:37 <geekosaur> yes
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23:04:42 <geekosaur> hence are countable
23:04:43 <monochrom> And it is also related to the deal with real numbers, set theory, everything. There are countable models of ZFC, and yet there are also uncountable sets.
23:04:59 <EvanR> also there's a difference between computable real and algorithmic real
23:05:13 <EvanR> monochrom, yes that's what I was getting at
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23:05:34 <EvanR> uncountable is necessarily semantic
23:05:55 <monochrom> You can choose a different level of abstraction (aka model) you get a different conclusion. This is supposed to be normal.
23:08:12 <monochrom> I think both are necessarily semantic. But then that's a tautology. You need to choose a semantic (aka model again) before you can argue anything.
23:08:49 <EvanR> sometimes something can be said about any possible semantics
23:08:56 <EvanR> because you're really talking about the syntax
23:09:12 <EvanR> or the logic of how you put the sentences together
23:09:22 <EvanR> and never really refer to any meaning
23:09:35 <EvanR> which happens in haskell sometimes
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23:09:51 <monochrom> In particular if you think that you are using merely syntax trees for your argument, then you are choosing the Herbrand model, therefore it's a model, therefore it's also a semantics! There is no escape from arguing semantics
23:09:59 <EvanR> when you're dealing with raw data, no IO
23:10:24 <EvanR> Herbrand
23:10:37 <EvanR> I'll have to look that up and hope it's not ridiculously trivial lol
23:10:48 <monochrom> "It's semantics all the way down" >:)
23:11:08 <monochrom> It is fairly trivial. It's literally the set of ASTs.
23:11:52 <monochrom> So for example if you argue that programs are countable, you are just reminding us that the Herbrand model is countable.
23:12:16 <monochrom> ... and I guess that's one way to see why there are countable models for ZFC!
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23:13:42 <haskellbridge> <thirdofmay18081814goya> i'll be back with a more rigorous statement
23:13:57 <monochrom> And whatever you do in model theory, you must respect that Herbrand models are here to stay, even if it may be an annoying silly oddball.
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23:17:58 <monochrom> You may need more than spelling out a rigorous statement. You may end up also needing to spell out exactly which proof system you chose. Like I said, choosing a different one leads to the opposite result.
23:18:48 <monochrom> And just around the same time in #haskell-offtopic we were talking about how programs come ship with their own C++ libs to avoid DLL hell.
23:19:24 <monochrom> program : supporting libs :: true statement :: the proof system that proved it
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23:21:41 <monochrom> Oh and...
23:21:50 <monochrom> @quote monochrom polymorphic
23:21:50 <lambdabot> monochrom says: All pointless debates can be settled by going polymorphic.
23:22:57 <c_wraith> does that also apply to pointfree debates?
23:23:13 <monochrom> haha, I haven't thought of that.
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