Logs on 2025-01-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:05:32 | <zero> | hellwolf: the ability to do `(0,1) { fst = 2 } ==> (2,1)` |
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| 00:14:25 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Without lenses it do be a bit awkward to update tuples. But then again if your tuple is 4 or more wide, maybe you should consider a record |
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| 00:23:04 | <jackdk> | Agreed - it's rare indeed that I want even a 3-tuple |
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| 00:36:16 | <zero> | first and second from Data.Bifunctor are useful |
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| 00:36:23 | <zero> | :t first |
| 00:36:24 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 00:36:51 | <zero> | first (const 2) (0,1) |
| 00:36:54 | <zero> | > first (const 2) (0,1) |
| 00:36:55 | <lambdabot> | (2,1) |
| 00:37:33 | <geekosaur> | you're reinventing lens, I see |
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| 00:39:39 | <geekosaur> | in some sense, at least |
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| 00:40:00 | <zero> | reiventing lisp |
| 00:40:51 | <zero> | > (fst . snd . snd) (0,(1,(2,3))) |
| 00:40:53 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 00:41:28 | <zero> | > (fst (snd (snd (0,(1,(2,3)))))) |
| 00:41:30 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 00:42:12 | <zero> | > let (car,cdr) = (fst,snd) in (fst (snd (snd (0,(1,(2,3)))))) |
| 00:42:14 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 00:42:23 | <zero> | > let (car,cdr) = (fst,snd) in (car (cdr (cdr (0,(1,(2,3)))))) |
| 00:42:25 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 00:42:29 | <zero> | there we go |
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| 00:44:15 | <zero> | i wonder about the efficiency of tuple trees vs idiomatic trees in haskell |
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| 04:18:43 | <jle`> | tuple trees are basically type-level trees -- there's that common trick that you can use them to easily overload/timeout typechecking |
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| 04:19:49 | <jle`> | :t let f x = (x, x) in f . f . f . f . f . f . f . f |
| 04:19:50 | <lambdabot> | b -> ((((((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))))), (((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, |
| 04:19:50 | <lambdabot> | b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))))), ((((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, |
| 04:19:50 | <lambdabot> | b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))))), (((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, |
| 04:19:50 | <lambdabot> | b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))))))), (((((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, |
| 04:19:50 | <lambdabot> | b))))), (((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))))), ((((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), |
| 04:19:52 | <lambdabot> | (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))))), (((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, |
| 04:19:54 | <lambdabot> | b)))), ((((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b))), (((b, b), (b, b)), ((b, b), (b, b)))))))) |
| 04:19:58 | <jle`> | oh sorry i didn't realize that would actually evaluate |
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| 04:27:45 | <monochrom> | But yeah it's exponential length output so exponential time so we're cool. :) |
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| 04:28:18 | <geekosaur> | most of the slowdown there, though, was lambdabot throttling so it didn't get kicked for flooding… |
| 04:28:38 | <geekosaur> | ghc was done with its delay when the first line came out |
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| 04:35:58 | <homo> | exciting good news https://github.com/augustss/MicroHs/tree/hugs |
| 04:38:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sounds cool, what will it mean ? |
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| 05:06:07 | <jackdk> | MicroHs will be buildable from Hugs, meaning that we have at least one actively developed Haskell compiler that's bootstrappable from C, which means you could if you wanted root its bootstrap chain in hex0, the couple-hundred-byte assembler |
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| 05:11:55 | <geekosaur> | I have to say I still don't see the point. The only thing I can think of is vetting the entire build chain, but the xz exploit demonstrated that "Reflections on Trusting Trust" is still with us and only gets worse with every new link in the chain |
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| 05:15:15 | <geekosaur> | (so you're going to vet patches. (a) damn lot of patches in something as old as gcc; (b) Alice strings together 30 patches, each innocuous but together you get the xz exploit. Will you catch that?) |
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| 05:23:15 | <mange> | Isn't the point of "reflections on trusting trust" that the exploit survives in the binary alone? Bootstrapping at least ensures we can find the exploit in source, eventually. |
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| 05:25:38 | <geekosaur> | that's just one way to do it. the one I described above is another. there are a lot of exploits possible; RoTT isn't about a single specific form of exploit but the entire class. it uses the specific one as an example |
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| 05:31:15 | <probie> | geekosaur: It's no security panacea, but it still reduces the number of parties you need to trust |
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| 05:56:05 | <homo> | geekosaur even without security concern, for academic haskell this is proof where each binary comes from, guix is a very cool distro for science |
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| 06:04:02 | <homo> | also xz situation shows why free software is important: you can fix it on source level (instead of disassembling binary) and you can legally share your fixes with other people |
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| 06:23:43 | <homo> | btw, the following patch is required to be applied to hugs to ignore integer overflow https://github.com/augustss/hugs98-plus-Sep2006/commit/a87d3a15194e4d7724627e43a94ac1d12ab78f9c.patch |
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| 08:02:32 | <[exa]> | wow, cool news from microhs. One could ask if microhs could bootstrap ghc then |
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| 08:39:59 | <kqr> | I feel like I' |
| 08:40:04 | <kqr> | Oops, premature return. Sorry! |
| 08:41:11 | <kqr> | I feel like I'm missing something obvious here. I have a Data.Fixed number, and I want to stringify it with just the precision needed. I.e. something like 200 becomes "200", 5 becomes "5", while 0.1 becomes "0.1", and 0.003 is "0.003". I could do this manually, of course, but there ought to be something to help me, right? |
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| 08:49:09 | <opqdonut> | kqr: showFixed, "First arg is whether to chop off trailing zeros" |
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| 09:06:02 | <kqr> | opqdonut, Wait, yeah, that does exactly what I need. I think when I tested it I accidentally gave it the wrong boolean and then never stopped to think it through again. Thanks! |
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| 09:39:55 | <hellwolf> | I am missing the "why" clearly stated for the MicroHs. But it's exciting if we could bootstrap GHC from it. |
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| 09:48:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> why microhs exists at all ? |
| 09:48:03 | <homo> | [exa] I'm afraid without cooperation from ghc developers, ghc will never be buildable by alternative implementations, because ghc depends too much on its own extensions and internal quirks, and 7.x bugs show there is no guarantee that ghc can build itself, alternative option is to fork ghc to reduce those requirements |
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| 09:53:10 | <[exa]> | sm: because there's never enough compiler alternatives |
| 09:53:29 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> a dramatically simpler, cleaner and more portable new haskell compiler actively maintained by a top haskell developer - valuable |
| 09:53:41 | <hellwolf> | the idea was bootstrap from a older GHC |
| 09:53:51 | <hellwolf> | and GHC compiles itself version by version |
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| 09:54:17 | <homo> | hellwolf how do you get older ghc working on riscv and arm without running x86 instruction emulator? |
| 09:54:18 | <[exa]> | homo: well, true |
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| 09:55:28 | <homo> | older ghc path is what Googulator from #bootstrappable channel prefers |
| 09:56:20 | <hellwolf> | I guess you just need to build an old one from one platform? |
| 09:56:41 | <hellwolf> | ultimate bootstrap goal was build everything from a FORTH compiler |
| 09:56:49 | hellwolf | not being serious here |
| 09:57:04 | <homo> | that assumes I must have an emulator for that platform or I must buy specific hardware |
| 09:58:17 | <homo> | bootstrappable is not about getting archives of all historical laggage, if there is alternative and maintained implementation capable of doing bootstrap it's more preferable path than going back in history |
| 10:01:10 | <homo> | and for self-hosted implementation to be bootstrappable, best practice is that it uses small subset of it's own features, not almost entire set of features |
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| 10:02:20 | <merijn> | homo: I mean, GHC doesn't use most of the advanced stuff of itself |
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| 10:02:42 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> start with say microhs, build progressively more featureful variants of ghc |
| 10:03:04 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> unless you've all been saying that already, in which case carry on |
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| 10:03:47 | <merijn> | homo: I mean, the REAL answer to your bootstrap question is: You'd go through the LLVM backend |
| 10:03:50 | <homo> | also my interest is getting haskell to plan9, I am not insane to port not just elephant, but a freaking blue whale called ghc |
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| 10:05:40 | <merijn> | homo: Generally you'd want to bootstrap by simply cross-compiling at least a semi-recent GHC to whatever platform |
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| 10:05:43 | <homo> | merijn if it doesn't use those, how do you explain that ghc 4 can't directly build latest version of ghc? can ghc 5 do that? ghc 6? ghc 7? ghc 8? |
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| 10:07:26 | <homo> | even cross-compiled I won't bother doing work necessary to port ghc neither to different os nor to different processor instruction set |
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| 10:12:55 | <homo> | and 7.x gap got solved last month by Googulator, it's not funny that ghc 7.x can't build ghc 7.x, literally same version of itself |
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| 10:20:27 | <geekosaur> | you say this like you think you're ghc's primary stakeholder |
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| 10:20:35 | <geekosaur> | the primary stakeholders are: |
| 10:20:39 | <geekosaur> | - PL researchers |
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| 10:20:55 | <geekosaur> | - industry users (yes, they very much exist _and_ drive ghc development) |
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| 10:21:14 | <geekosaur> | - to a lesser extent, pedagogical - teaching |
| 10:21:38 | <geekosaur> | no, ghc is not going to be downgraded so you can build 9.12 with ghc 4 |
| 10:22:28 | <merijn> | homo: ok, so suppose we spend 5 or so man-years to make GHC 9 be compilable with GHC 4. Then what? What exactly is the benefit of that massive time investment? |
| 10:22:32 | <geekosaur> | C doesn't have these problems because C doesn't change that redically |
| 10:22:44 | <homo> | geekosaur thank goodness I'm not stakeholder, but that was reply to suggestions such as building from ancient ghc or doing cross-compiling |
| 10:23:22 | <merijn> | homo: So? What's the problem with bootstrapping via ancient versions? |
| 10:23:30 | <merijn> | "It takes time and is annoying to do"? |
| 10:23:40 | <geekosaur> | you want to make life hard for yourself, go right ahead. don't demand everyone else bow to your insistence |
| 10:23:42 | <merijn> | Who cares, how often do you think new platforms get bootstrapped? |
| 10:23:47 | <homo> | merijn don't bother, like I said earlier my goal is to get haskell to plan9 and I am satisfied with microhs |
| 10:24:21 | <merijn> | I mean, at this point anything that's not GHC isn't Haskell in any practical sense, tbh. |
| 10:24:39 | <merijn> | Even UHC is questionable, since it presumably can't compile large parts of Hackage |
| 10:25:34 | <homo> | the only thing that can be worse than ghc in terms of quality is zig, because to bootstrap zig you need to rebuild zig 0.10.0 32 times and zig 0.11.0 16 times, all those 48 are slightly different from each other, but broken enough to need step-by-step source code adjustments after every build |
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| 10:34:18 | <kuribas> | Can you not compile ghc to C, and bootstrap from there? |
| 10:34:20 | <homo> | merijn and practically microhs "not being haskell" is irrelevant if all I want is to have compiler for lazy statically-typed functional programming language on plan9, even if ghc was on plan9 I would unlikely be able to build more than 1% of packages on stackage, because plan9 is neither posix nor microsoft windows |
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| 10:35:51 | <merijn> | kuribas: Only kinda |
| 10:36:29 | <homo> | just to port microhs to plan9 I'll still have to rewrite combinator virtual machine to align with plan9, and on top of that I'll need to get rid of all posix and ffi dependencies in haskell code |
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| 10:39:28 | <homo> | kuribas 1. for clean bootstrap something other than ghc must be able to convert ghc language into c language, 2. practically plan9 is so different that you'll need to rewrite generated c code by hand |
| 10:40:21 | <hellwolf> | huh, why plan9 was brought up. |
| 10:40:52 | hellwolf | retiring from this thread, I guess I got lost somewhere |
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| 10:58:10 | <homo> | hellwolf I'm focused on something more realistic than bootstrapping ghc and porting ghc to different platform (whether it is processor instuction set or operating system), bootstrapping haskell on different platform doesn't imply bootstrapping ghc, I don't intend to sound like ghc's stakeholder, rather I respect their lack of interest by not working with them |
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| 11:01:48 | <kuribas> | homo: "lazy statically-typed", are there other than haskell? |
| 11:02:59 | <geekosaur> | curry |
| 11:03:00 | <homo> | I'll say it more completely: lazy statically-typed with IO monad and pretty syntax, combination of which cannot be found in other languages |
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| 11:03:57 | <kuribas> | there idris2 with optional lazyness. |
| 11:04:19 | <kuribas> | I wouldn't call haskell "pretty syntax". |
| 11:05:32 | <homo> | kuribas try working with communities that use haxe and guile, you'll understand what I mean by pretty syntax |
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| 11:08:03 | <merijn> | kuribas: Clean? |
| 11:08:32 | <homo> | I don't recall clean having IO monad |
| 11:08:37 | <geekosaur> | they said "IO monad" |
| 11:08:47 | <geekosaur> | Clean uses uniqueness types instead |
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| 11:11:17 | <hellwolf> | | However, Clean deals with mutable state and input/output (I/O) through a uniqueness type system, in contrast to Haskell's use of monads. |
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| 11:13:31 | <geekosaur> | (granting that what Clean claims about Haskell is BS because monads have nothing to do with how IO and ST work) |
| 11:13:58 | <geekosaur> | (they just provide sequencing, the real magic is buried in `runRW#`) |
| 11:17:23 | <hellwolf> | re that "sequencing", I recently fixed a bug in a monad that I implemented, where I had a bug related to "sequencing". The short story, it didn't. But it's not monad's fault. That starts to make me to realign my intuition. I can't fully articulate everything rigorously yet, but I definitely would not assume monad means sequences. |
| 11:17:57 | <geekosaur> | the specific way IO and ST use it guarantees sequencing, and that is the sole reason that they are monads |
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| 11:18:57 | <geekosaur> | whereas, do you know about accursedUnutterablePerformIO? all it does is inline runRW#. and that causes the world to come unraveled |
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| 11:21:09 | <hellwolf> | 01-22 13:17 <geekosaur> the specific way IO and ST use it guarantees sequencing, and that is the sole reason that they are monads |
| 11:21:09 | <hellwolf> | yea, that's probably a better phrase of cause and effect. |
| 11:21:09 | <hellwolf> | There is nothing "sequential" about the list monad, e.g. |
| 11:22:06 | <geekosaur> | strictly speaking there is, but it's because lists are (linked) lists so sequential is pretty much the rule of the day |
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| 12:39:23 | <spew> | homo i'm working on a microhs port to plan9 |
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| 12:46:16 | <homo> | spew don't rush it, bootstrap from hugs is still incomplete, and pre-generated combinators assume posix environment |
| 12:47:01 | <homo> | unless you really want it to be inside ape layer |
| 12:47:53 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Hi homo |
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| 12:56:00 | <homo> | hi |
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| 13:18:59 | <spew> | no, native |
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| 13:27:28 | <homo> | in that case priority right now is to get it to build with hugs, limitation is that hugs doesn't have GHT.Types(Any), so ghc/PrimTable.hs needs to be rewritten to Data.Dynamic or to some abstract tree |
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| 13:28:27 | <homo> | I tried to convert it to Data.Dynamic, got myself trapped into fractal of errors - fixing each error brings more errors than before |
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| 13:31:51 | <homo> | adding GHC.Types(Any) to hugs is still an option though |
| 13:38:03 | <spew> | that's fine, I'll deal with any merge conflicts later |
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| 13:43:31 | <homo> | spew I plan to rip off ffi completely and rewrite haskell code that calls ffi to instead use syscalls provided by kernel, thus breaking haskell2010 standard |
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| 14:19:32 | <vishalpaudel> | Hi from india |
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| 14:25:30 | <hellwolf> | Hi! |
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| 14:26:11 | <vishalpaudel> | will my chats persist? |
| 14:26:27 | <vishalpaudel> | because i find that in irc, all my chats just wipe away |
| 14:26:30 | <vishalpaudel> | there is no history |
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| 14:27:21 | <vishalpaudel> | nobody uses irc, huh, only bots are online |
| 14:27:34 | <hellwolf> | https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell |
| 14:27:47 | <hellwolf> | do you have specific question? |
| 14:27:49 | <geekosaur> | irc has no history by itself but there is a log bot here, see the /topic |
| 14:28:06 | <geekosaur> | and some of us stay connected 24×7 |
| 14:28:38 | <vishalpaudel> | @geekosaur, thanks for answering |
| 14:28:38 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 14:28:58 | <vishalpaudel> | no #hellwolf |
| 14:29:09 | <vishalpaudel> | hellwolf |
| 14:29:11 | <hellwolf> | what made you interested in joining the channel |
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| 14:29:35 | <vishalpaudel> | curiosity |
| 14:29:39 | <vishalpaudel> | ? |
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| 14:30:12 | <vishalpaudel> | i mean maybe you are asking about the steps I took that made me join this channel: |
| 14:30:37 | <vishalpaudel> | i was using thunderbird for matrix login for helix-editor, then I realised thunderbird allows irc chats |
| 14:30:47 | <vishalpaudel> | the first irc that came to mind was: #haskell |
| 14:31:40 | <vishalpaudel> | bye |
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| 14:33:28 | <hellwolf> | reminds me of tending a bookshop, when a surprise custom pops in then leaves after a few glances. |
| 14:34:49 | <mauke> | I didn't know thunderbird could speak irc |
| 14:35:21 | <geekosaur> | it can |
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| 14:35:30 | <geekosaur> | may require a plugin |
| 14:36:02 | <hellwolf> | it's a pity that we didn't get an answer why #haskell was the first channel it came to his mind. |
| 14:36:36 | <mauke> | https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/instant-messaging-and-chat |
| 14:37:00 | <mauke> | I only knew about chatzilla |
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| 15:26:30 | <glguy> | Thunderbird natively supports IRC, no plug-in needed, but it's about the minimum support for it you can have |
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| 15:36:00 | <dminuoso> | I have an assoc list [(Text, Int)] that I need to do lookup on in both directions. Now I can keep a duplicate [(Int, Text)] which feels like a waaste,, copy and rewrite from base/ghc-internal including the RULES which feels a bit silly... |
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| 16:08:03 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bimap-0.5.0/docs/Data-Bimap.html ? |
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| 19:50:06 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Not a big fan of depending on packages for a small isolated problem. |
| 19:50:44 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: I agree. But this does feel like it would benefit from a data structure that maintains the invariant |
| 19:50:55 | <tomsmeding> | unless the lists are small enough that you want to do linear search |
| 19:51:07 | <tomsmeding> | in which case, lookup and (lookup . map swap)? |
| 19:51:25 | <tomsmeding> | ((lookup .) . map swap), rather |
| 19:51:30 | <dminuoso> | Id have to do some statistical analysis, but I would say 95% of them have less than 15 elements. |
| 19:51:43 | <tomsmeding> | what about the remaining 5%? |
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| 19:52:03 | <tomsmeding> | complexity analysis is about the worst case. :) |
| 19:52:04 | <dminuoso> | No bigger than 50 |
| 19:52:21 | <dminuoso> | Linear search is probably faster in all cases. |
| 19:52:30 | <tomsmeding> | a map might already be faster at that point, because it's not linear search in an array but in a linked list |
| 19:52:40 | <tomsmeding> | but linear search is definitely quite fine, yes |
| 19:52:45 | <Rembane> | Or maybe a vector? |
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| 19:53:34 | <dminuoso> | The biggest cost will be equality on the Text probably. ;) |
| 19:54:00 | <dminuoso> | The strings are all short (10-15ish) however |
| 19:54:02 | <tomsmeding> | isn't equality on Text byte-equality, hence memcmp(), hence quite fast? |
| 19:54:25 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Uh, what about collation? |
| 19:54:27 | <tomsmeding> | but this is tangential to the point; is the answer to your original question answered by "lookup and ((lookup .) . map swap)"? |
| 19:54:30 | <dminuoso> | Text contains unicode |
| 19:54:41 | <dminuoso> | But the question is very good actually |
| 19:54:51 | <dminuoso> | I dont.. know? |
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| 19:55:20 | <dminuoso> | | lenA == lenB = A.equal arrA offA arrB offB lenA |
| 19:55:28 | <dminuoso> | Guessimport qualified Data.Text.Array as A |
| 19:55:59 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.1.2/docs/src/Data.Text.Array.html#compareInternal - so this ends up using memcmp or compareByteArrays# after all |
| 19:57:04 | <dminuoso> | Then memcmp is *definitely* faster. Depending on alignment it could a tight loop on a single cache line. |
| 19:57:26 | <tomsmeding> | > "\x61\x308" == "\xe4" |
| 19:57:28 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 19:57:29 | <dminuoso> | And even if not, strided prefetchers will trigger (I dont know the assembly generated by compareByteArrays# however) |
| 19:57:42 | <tomsmeding> | that's a + combining diaeresis, versus the pre-combined form |
| 19:58:28 | <tomsmeding> | took some time checking that I was doing the right thing because my terminal isn't rendering the uncombined form -.- |
| 19:59:00 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Honestly the topic of strings and equality is an annoying business, because "collation" does not refer to a particular authoritative strategy either. |
| 19:59:10 | <dminuoso> | There can be so many notions of equality with string-like data. |
| 19:59:16 | <tomsmeding> | right |
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| 19:59:36 | <tomsmeding> | I've had the luxury so far of not working on applications where that's actually important |
| 19:59:46 | <dminuoso> | RDBMs tend to get this more right than most programming languages. |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-01-22.