Logs on 2025-01-23 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:26:06	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Why is unicode so weird? A lot of equalities in text would make more sense and be much faster if it was actually consistent with combining stuff
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03:30:46	<geekosaur>	because different languages have different notions of things like collation. "ll" is a distinct "letter" in Spanish, for example
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03:34:28	<probie>	geekosaur: That was changed in 1994. Although that's still an issue for other languages (e.g. Welsh)
03:34:38	<geekosaur>	in the case of combining characters, there are "pre-combined" characters for various Western scripts, and will continue to be because "page 0" is defined as ISO8859-1, but you still need the separate ones for languages such as Vietnamese
03:38:24	<geekosaur>	(I'm not sure if any of the Latin-extended blocks covers Polish fully…)
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03:39:28	<geekosaur>	s/page 0/the basic Latin block/
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03:42:30	<geekosaur>	and in the end, whatever simplifying assumption you choose to try to make things behave "simply", there's some language somewhere that violates it
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04:07:32	<monochrom>	Any language standard cannot be better than the language itself.
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04:07:55	<monochrom>	More specifically, s/better/more coherent/
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04:34:50	<Guest68>	I was asking questions on #haskell-beginners about getting the sample code from the book "Simple Haskell" to work - I came up with this as the easiest way for a complete newbie to play around with the code. I removed the RIO import, replaced Text -> String and shoved everything into a Haskell Playground. I eventually worked out how to get print out
04:34:50	<Guest68>	the result of show on the testBuild function. Here is a link if anyone is interested: https://play.haskell.org/saved/8wnvkjgn
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04:38:53	<glguy>	I haven't seen the original, but that seems pretty reasonable
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05:37:12	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> geekosaur note that back when "ll", "rr" and "ch" were letters in Spanish, they were mostly treated as separate, only their pronounciation changed. In particular, attempts to unify them into one letter never really became popular
05:38:40	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Spanish has fairly strict rules for consonant treatment in many situations, and these were treated the as sets of consonants
05:40:31	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> They weren't even named "letters" either, but they got into primary school material as if they were because of their pronounciation
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05:42:35	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> "s/letters/"letters"/" on the first one and "s/treated the as/treated as/" on the second. IRC not having edits is annoying
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06:18:10	<probie>	Bowuigi: As I understand it, they weren't definitively removed as "letters" until 2010 https://www.rae.es/espanol-al-dia/exclusion-de-ch-y-ll-del-abecedario
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06:21:53	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Yep, that article describes the situation better. I forgot they were named digraphs lol
06:24:29	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> I still remember the colorful alphabet signs with digraphs and how quickly they were replaced when the mistake was corrected
06:27:07	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> In fact, a lot of people still think they are separate letters and will recite it with those digraphs and their original names, "che" and "elle"/"lle"
06:28:13	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> Never understood why they were so unconsistent with it either, the variations of c and r never got their own graphemes. Anyway, that's offtopic lol
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07:17:09	<dminuoso>	probie: The fact that these details even change over time makes it even more complicated, you might require a kind of langdata similar to tzdata for a comprehensive solution.
07:17:51	<dminuoso>	Say you want to test whether a version of a text from 1970 has changed meaningfully from a version published in 2020.
07:19:00	<dminuoso>	And equality might not just refer to lexicography but typography as well - an interesting western example is ligatures.
07:20:10	<dminuoso>	Assuming something like `memcpy` to be the proper solution can be slightly naive too. Imagine `text` supported both UTF8 and UTF16 encodings. Would you want an UTF8 encoded string to be considered different from an UTF16 encoded sequence of the same codepoints?
07:21:07	<dminuoso>	Having worked with timestamps across timezones taught be to be careful and considerate with notions of equality.
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07:48:43	<homo>	spew microhs is now bootstrappable with hugs https://issues.guix.gnu.org/75778
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08:05:02	<kqr>	[esqueleto] I have a function that takes a couple of SqlExpr of a fractional type, which constructs an SqlQuery that divides one by the other. The result of this SqlQuery is also an SqlExpr of the same fractional type (because that's how SQL division works in esqueleto). However, I'd like this to be a different fractional type. I cannot promote the relevant Haskell conversion function to an
08:05:04	<kqr>	SqlExpr (the documentation is clear about this[1]) but I'm a little unsure what to do. There is an `unsafeCoerceSqlExpr` but I'm hesitant to use any function called "unsafe". [1]: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/esqueleto-3.6.0.0/docs/Database-Esqueleto-Internal-Internal.html#t:SqlExpr
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09:19:39	<geekosaur>	Bowuigi: my specific recollection was of "ll" being a distinct section in Spanish<->English dictionaries. I grant that was some time ago, though, and dictionaries (especially the translation variety) may not match normal idiomatic usage.
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13:15:26	<kuribas>	Does the value restriction apply to haskell? For example for mutable data?
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13:16:12	<kuribas>	I suppose it doesn't since haskell doesn't support subtyping?
13:16:31	<kuribas>	Like storing (forall a.Num a) in a datatype.
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13:24:52	<Leary>	kuribas: Based on a cursory reading of the wikipedia article it's obviated by purity---we don't need it.
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13:31:58	<opqdonut>	I think you can get related problems when you mix IORefs and unsafePerformIO
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13:37:58	<kuribas>	Leary: It would be the same problem with IO and subtyping.
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13:38:46	<kuribas>	writeIORef :: IORef a -> a -> IO ()
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13:39:26	<kuribas>	It works because IORef is monomorphic.
13:41:18	<kuribas>	Maybe with impredicative types the value restriction would apply?
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13:43:15	<probie>	% let someRef = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (undefined :: a) in do {let {intRef = (someRef :: IORef Int)}; let {strRef = (someRef :: IORef String)}; writeIORef strRef "bad"; readIORef strRef >>= print}
13:43:15	<yahb2>	"bad"
13:43:23	<probie>	% let someRef = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (undefined :: a) in do {let {intRef = (someRef :: IORef Int)}; let {strRef = (someRef :: IORef String)}; writeIORef strRef "bad"; readIORef intRef >>= print}
13:43:23	<yahb2>	-2305843008106363762
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13:45:26	<probie>	% let someRef = unsafePerformIO $ newIORef (undefined :: a) in do {let {intRef = (someRef :: IORef Int)}; let {strRef = (someRef :: IORef String)}; writeIORef strRef "bad"; readIORef intRef >>= print}
13:45:26	<yahb2>	-1152921503499516810
13:46:42	<Leary>	kuribas: You can only get `IORef`s from `newIORef :: a -> IO (IORef a)`. That remains monomorphic even if `a` doesn't.
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13:47:48	<kuribas>	newIORef (4 :: forall a.Num a)?
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13:50:00	<probie>	If allowed, that's still safe, because the only thing you can put into that IORef is a `forall a. Num a`
13:51:43	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> geekosaur yeah the situation was always confusing and this slightly more phonetic alphabet was incomplete, that's why it was changed
13:51:49	<kuribas>	probie: and if you have (foo :: IORef Int -> IO (IORef Int))?
13:52:07	<merijn>	kuribas: That's not the same thing
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13:52:35	<merijn>	Because Int doesn't unify with `forall a . Num a => a`
13:53:32	<kuribas>	merijn: it's a subtype.
13:53:46	<merijn>	Because what you wrote is (with impredicative types) `IORef (forall a . Num a => a)` which is not `forall a . Num a => IORef a`
13:54:29	<merijn>	kuribas: It is not "a subtype", because such a notion doesn't exist in Haskell. The relevant notion is whether they unify (which they don't)
13:54:30	<kuribas>	(forall a . Num a => a) is a subtype of Int
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13:55:08	<kuribas>	I "can" pass a (forall a.Num a) to a function taking int, no?
13:55:16	<kuribas>	Otherwise, what do you do with those?
13:55:38	<merijn>	You cannot
13:55:49	<merijn>	You can pass them to functions of Num
13:56:14	<Leary>	No, you certainly can.
13:56:50	<merijn>	Leary: How so?
13:56:55	<ncf>	:t (\x -> x) :: (forall a. Num a => a) -> Int
13:56:56	<lambdabot>	(forall a. Num a => a) -> Int
13:57:26	<ncf>	(\x -> x) :: A → B is at least one reasonable definition of A ≤ B
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13:57:55	<kuribas>	> (succ :: Int -> Int) (3 :: Num a => a)
13:57:57	<lambdabot>	4
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13:58:31	<merijn>	kuribas: That's the incorrect example, in that the forall is now in the wrong place for what I was saying
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13:59:04	<merijn>	kuribas: Your original sample was impredicative, which ends up giving you an existential type
13:59:06	<Leary>	Haskell can be said to have subtyping, but it is (and must be) shallow: while `forall a. F a` is a subtype of `F A`, `F (forall a. a)` is not a subtype of `F A`.
13:59:21	<merijn>	But since Haskell existentials use the same syntax with forall it becomes easy to confuse the two
13:59:54	<Leary>	So you cannot pass an `IORef (forall a. Num a => a)` to a function expecting an `IORef Int`.
14:00:22	<kuribas>	merijn: it's reasonable for an immutable list.
14:00:49	<merijn>	kuribas: i.e. putting "forall a . Num a => a" into an IORef and getting an (impredicative) "IORef (forall a . Num a => a)" is fine. But what you "get out" of that IORef is an existential type that you cannot instantiate to Int
14:01:08	<merijn>	kuribas: Impredicativity works the exist same in lists
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14:01:26	<Leary>	merijn: It's universal, not existential.
14:01:31	<merijn>	[forall a . Num a => a] has the exact same restrictions as IORef
14:01:47	<merijn>	Leary: It is an existential, but haskell encodes those as hidden foralls
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14:02:37	<merijn>	Don't blame me for having to write existentials with forall rather than exists, blame the Simon's and GHC team :p
14:03:09	<Leary>	Well, one of us is confused, because I'm pretty sure nothing is existential here.
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14:03:42	<ncf>	i don't see any existentials here, church-encoded or not
14:04:26	<ncf>	forall a. Num a => a does not produce a type. it accepts a type
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14:08:35	<merijn>	ncf: The only way to represent existentials in GHC is via `newtype SomeFoo = SomeFoo (forall a . Foo a => a)`
14:08:57	<ncf>	no
14:09:08	<ncf>	data SomeFoo = forall a. Foo a => SomeFoo a
14:09:23	<ncf>	note that the universal context is outside of the constructor
14:09:31	<ncf>	this is shorthand for
14:09:36	<ncf>	data SomeFoo where
14:09:47	<ncf>	SomeFoo :: forall a. Foo a => SomeFoo
14:09:51	<ncf>	in GADT syntax
14:10:03	<merijn>	I forgot the syntax, since it's been awhile, you get the idea
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14:10:36	<ncf>	the syntax is precisely what confuses you here
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14:12:24	<ncf>	er sorry
14:12:28	<ncf>	SomeFoo :: forall a. Foo a => a -> SomeFoo
14:12:32	zero	is now known as yin
14:12:37	<ncf>	please note the difference with
14:12:39	<ncf>	data AnyFoo where
14:12:47	<ncf>	AnyFoo :: (forall a. Foo a => a) -> AnyFoo
14:13:07	<ncf>	the former could be rewritten, in pseudo-haskell,
14:13:17	<ncf>	SomeFoo :: (exists a. Foo a /\ a) -> SomeFoo
14:13:29	<ncf>	(using the syntax of the first-class existentials GHC proposal)
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16:33:30	<benjamin>	hello, is there some sort of auto-reload-on-file-change functionality built into ghci/cabal repl ?(p.s. i am aware of ghcid, but i cant get that to reload the repl i am using)
16:34:29	<geekosaur>	use ghcid or ghciwatch
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16:41:01	<benjamin>	thanks!
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17:35:04	<haskellbridge>	<Bowuigi> homo would compiling GHC using GHC with the "-fvia-C" flag help with bootstrapping? https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/codegens.html
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17:38:08	<geekosaur>	via-C produces slow but portable ANSI C, which you can capture (-keep-hc-files, I think) and compile on another system
17:38:46	<geekosaur>	sadly I don't think the bootstrapping process is described anywhere, you would have to ask in #GHC:matrix.org
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17:38:58	<geekosaur>	(and tbh I think we're running out of folks who know how it works)
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17:44:37	<homo>	Bowuigi geekosaur generated code is considered binary, so no, that is not bootstrap from source, also I already stated earlier I have no interest touching ghc just like ghc developers have no interest in bootstrappability, ghc is haskell, but haskell is not ghc
17:46:14	<__monty__>	homo: I think GHC keeps being brought up because most people see non-GHC Haskell as little more than a toy.
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17:50:44	<homo>	keeping my goal to bring haskell to plan9 in mind: 1. ghc on plan9 wouldn't even be able to compile and run 99% of packages on stackage because plan9 is neither posix nor windows compatible, 2. I want to rip off ffi completely and convert every haskell code that I use into calling syscalls provided by kernel, 3. ghc is too bloated for my laptop, compilation process will simply destroy it, 4. microhs being small allows me to easily modify it
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17:57:10	<homo>	also if someone seriously considers trying to build ghc with microhs, most likely it will take 1000 times longer to compile, so even if 5 hours turn into 1000 hours, that is almost 42 days waiting for compilation to finish, and you will have to start again if something fails and you make changes to ghc
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18:16:50	<haskellbridge>	<sm> homo: sounds like you want to bring microhs to plan 9 ? what's the current problem ?
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18:27:24	<homo>	sm well, bootstrap with hugs is complete, so now it's possible for me to focus on porting, all I need to do is simply rewrite everything that expects posix environment into using plan9 environment, both virtual machine and provided haskell source have posix-specific code (which means generated/mhs.c is not portable despite being for virtual machine)
18:28:39	<homo>	a cherry on top I need to figure out how to work yacc and extend hugs to support pattern guards so that there is no need for long bootstrap chain in the future
18:28:58	<homo>	s/work yacc/work with yacc/
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18:34:51	<haskellbridge>	<sm> sounds great! This should be helpful for microhs' portability in the end
18:38:02	<homo>	well, it's small size (or rather design decision) already allows it to be more portable than ghc, it should build on riscv without any modifications
18:38:39	<homo>	as well as on any other instruction set architecture that is either 32-bit or 64-bit
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18:50:51	<homo>	also having darcs on riscv would be very neat, which again is more realistic to do with microhs
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18:54:39	<haskellbridge>	<sm> I'd say that is a long shot. Darcs is a big crufty old codebase.
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19:14:45	<homo>	well, pijul got rewritten from ocaml to rust long time ago and might be incompatible with old ocaml implementation, so converting pijul to haskell requires understanding rust
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19:21:38	<homo>	another possibility is to learn format of pijul repository and implement pijul in haskell without reading any line of rust code
19:22:03	<homo>	but before any of that I want to toy with darcs longer
19:22:49	<srazkvt>	biggest problem of pijul rn imo is server part isn't open, or at least wasn't last time i checked
19:24:44	<_73>	Hi. Today in class when discussing OCaml a classmate asked "does OCaml have a currying operator like $ in haskell"? The professor sort of brushed it off but I am confused as I always thought of $ as an operator for function application. I have never heard it referred to as a "currying operator", and cant find any such statements online. Is it accurate to refer to $ as a "currying operator"?
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19:30:25	<mauke>	I agree with you
19:30:35	<mauke>	I don't see what $ has to do with currying
19:31:29	<_73>	Ok, this is what I thought.
19:33:52	<homo>	:t curry
19:33:53	<lambdabot>	((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
19:33:59	<homo>	:t uncurry
19:34:00	<lambdabot>	(a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
19:36:39	<homo>	:t ($)
19:36:40	<lambdabot>	(a -> b) -> a -> b
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19:49:29	<homo>	_73 as an exercise, just play along with that, especially when you have job it's important to use same terminology that your co-workers use no matter how wrong it is, don't correct anyone in a work-place if you aren't willing to take risk of loosing job
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19:55:04	<[exa]>	wow, pijul
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19:55:33	<[exa]>	did they actually manage to summarize the algorithms there somehow? the only documentation on the data structues (in the manual) seems......weak at best
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19:58:00	<haskellbridge>	<sm> implementing pijul is also a long shot. It's another large app, depending on a large new db. Sorry to be the naysayer..
19:58:52	<haskellbridge>	<sm> I think it's a few very demanding person-years
19:59:11	<haskellbridge>	<sm> (either project)
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20:04:21	<haskellbridge>	<sm> maybe LLMs will get good at converting rust to haskell sooner
20:06:33	<dminuoso>	I am not convinced LLMs will continuously improve over time.
20:06:56	<dminuoso>	Especially in programming tasks.
20:07:29	<dminuoso>	You need to scale up training sets, already the well is poisoned because the internet is getting flooded by LLM generated code.
20:18:34	<haskellbridge>	<sm> they have been so far
20:18:51	<haskellbridge>	<sm> the poisoning thing doesn't seem to be happening, or can be avoided
20:19:57	<dminuoso>	It is not unreasonable that the big companies have taken big snapshots from the pristine state to avoid training from poisoned sets.
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20:20:45	<haskellbridge>	<sm> I think training often involves synthetic data and is carefully structured these days
20:23:41	<dminuoso>	The publications I have seen and skimmed suggest that LLMs break down on recursive training.
20:23:43	<homo>	sm you are very optimistic about how companies are structured internally when in reality they suffer a lot of disorganization
20:24:07	<haskellbridge>	<sm> eh ?
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20:25:01	<dminuoso>	For recursive training to add value, we would need LLMs to generate better output than their input, especially in programming since auditing large piles of codes for quality and correctness is just not feasible.
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20:26:19	<dminuoso>	Besides, everything I have seen suggests that LLMs in programming perform rather poor on any non-trivial problems, and yet they get used much in boiler plate code. To me that suggests a negative quality feedback loop, as the generated low quality code increases rapidly
20:26:21	<haskellbridge>	<sm> homO: I meant that the more successful and more efficient new LLMs seem to be benefitting from a more carefully structured training process (from my HN reading). I'm not saying anything about companies
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20:26:54	<dminuoso>	You and I must be reading very different HN articles. :)
20:28:17	<haskellbridge>	<sm> I used an LLM very successfully yesterday for some PHP and JS work. (Sorry to say it, because I don't like their costs and don't want to promote them. But I'm hoping to mostly use a local one soon.)
20:28:58	<homo>	dminuoso don't tell that to companies that want to cut their budget on workers, let them go bankrupt after they replace programmers with llms
20:28:59	<haskellbridge>	<sm> nobody has trained one focussed on rust/haskell porting yet, but something like that is quite possible in the near future. Much sooner than anyone will manually port darcs or pijul I predict
20:29:14	<dminuoso>	homo: Personally I dont mind if companies adopt LLMs large scale for programming.
20:29:16	<dminuoso>	I welcome it.
20:29:38	<dminuoso>	Someone needs to fix the hallucinated garbage in the future, someone who actually knows how to build programs without the tool that broke it in the first place.
20:30:00	<dminuoso>	I believe to be above the job security threshold.
20:30:11	<homo>	I welcome it too, because then proprietary software will be so shitty that more and more people will switch to free software
20:30:29	<dminuoso>	Why would free software be unimpacted?
20:30:52	<dminuoso>	Already now, people spend very little time on their open source projects.
20:31:51	<haskellbridge>	<sm> eh.. for some value of "very little time"
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20:33:20	<homo>	it also depends on how much sense it makes to focus on project, what if it's complete and thus requires updates very rarely?
20:36:01	<homo>	"oh no, last time it was updated was 2 years ago, it's so bad it wasn't updated yesterday"
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20:38:08	<Rembane>	I love projects that are done. And that just keeps working.
20:38:26	<homo>	I bet this kind of culture of frequent updates helps exploits like in xz happen
20:39:16	<Rembane>	Why?
20:40:03	<haskellbridge>	<sm> me too. Not all projects can be done; either way, I love the ones that just keep working
20:40:06	<homo>	because if you don't push more code, people think your project is dead, irrelevant
20:41:06	<geekosaur>	some of us ignore the update culture. xmonad's core barely changes; it's solid and doesn't need to change, and most things can be done via hooks (which mostly come from xmonad-contrib but I've seen a fair amount of personal extensions in people's `xmonad.hs` files)
20:41:17	<geekosaur>	(or modules in their private `lib` directories)
20:42:12	<dminuoso>	sm: Well most certainly do not donate 40 hours a week. When I say "little time" I mean it in the sense of "what little time they can donate" while splitting time with family, other hobbies and sleep
20:42:15	<Rembane>	homo: I think that depends on the ecosystem
20:42:27	<Rembane>	homo: Some ecosystems are so much more chill than others when it comes to updates.
20:42:51	<dminuoso>	sm: Especially in projects where there is 1-2 develoeprs, but dozens of issues a day from people that really want things fixed.
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20:43:24	<dminuoso>	LLMs certainly seem like a promising solution to a lack of open source contributions - whether its for good or worse remains to be seen.
20:43:32	<homo>	also when updates happen rarely, it's easier to make independent review and decide whether or not they are desirable
20:43:42	<dminuoso>	But Ive seen reports from a few maintainers that have to fight floods of PRs of poorly generated code already.
20:43:49	<dminuoso>	Not enough to consider it a pattern, but its a possibility
20:44:26	<homo>	would be actually an interesting update mechanism for every user: review code before updating
20:44:48	<dminuoso>	homo: I do that for our critical software.
20:45:09	<dminuoso>	For a while I have been playing around with an idea on how to tie this into cabal-install
20:45:28	<dminuoso>	But for now this is a manual process which I rigorously follow.
20:46:13	<dminuoso>	Why why I belong to the set of people that dislike large dependeny footprints, it makes my job harder. :-P
20:48:40	<homo>	you just give example of why bring microhs to plan9 - small dependency footprint of all software combined
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20:50:11	<dminuoso>	Ideally I would want cabal-install to have a mechanism to quickly vendor all dependencies unpacked locally
20:50:26	<dminuoso>	That way updates are easily reflected in git history too.
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20:51:53	<homo>	do you mean like some gnu/linux distros package haskell libraries??
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21:00:04	<homo>	btw, I just made some optimistic calculation, that if normally compiling ghc with ghc takes 5 hours, and microhs is 20 times slower than ghc and produces 50 times slower binaries than ghc, we get (20 stage0 + 50 stage1 + 1 stage2) * 5 = 355 hours = 14 days 19 hours of computer not doing anything other than compiling ghc, so to anyone willing to try: good luck and stay sane
21:00:52	<dminuoso>	Sounds like good old Gentoo times from the 00s.
21:01:14	<int-e>	I imagine that GHC uses too many of its own extensions for that to have any chance of working.
21:01:15	<dminuoso>	"Sorry we cant watch that movie next weekend, I'm busy compiling firefox"
21:01:20	<homo>	stage2 is just to make sure it's bit-to-bit identical to stage1
21:01:43	<int-e>	stage1 should also be fast, no?
21:02:01	<int-e>	hmm
21:02:13	<int-e>	no.
21:02:24	<homo>	stage0 = microhs compiles ghc, resulting binary is 50 times slower
21:02:32	<int-e>	stage0 = microhs, stage1 = ghc executed in whatever way by microhs, so slow
21:02:36	<homo>	stage1 = slow ghc compiles ghc
21:02:41	<int-e>	oh
21:02:51	<homo>	stage2 = fast ghc compile bit-by-bit identical fast ghc
21:02:52	<int-e>	so you have a stage -1 of sorts
21:02:54	<int-e>	fair enough
21:03:32	<homo>	stage2 is only for those who care about reproducible builds
21:03:35	<int-e>	Or rather you'd have... I still expect that to not work.
21:05:26	<homo>	those 14 days and 19 hours will surely turn into years of patching ghc, so this is why I'm wishing good luck and sanity to anyone wanting this
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All times are in UTC on 2025-01-23.