Logs on 2025-01-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:04:28 | jmtd | is now known as Jon |
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| 11:39:43 | <kuribas> | merijn: Where you saying (forall a. Num a) is an existential, not a universal? |
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| 11:41:56 | <merijn> | Whether I was saying that, that depends very much on what context that syntax is in. And my terminology is a sloppy mess anyway :p |
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| 12:04:45 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: That type is not existential. |
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| 12:10:38 | <dminuoso> | `(∃a. ... a ...) -> r` however is an existential type and it is isomorphic to `∀ a. (... a ... -> r)` |
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| 12:29:57 | <ncf> | forall a. Num a is not a type |
| 12:30:51 | <ncf> | dminuoso: (∃a. ... a ...) is an existential type |
| 12:30:55 | <ncf> | (∃a. ... a ...) -> r is not |
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| 13:18:25 | <kuribas> | ncf: it is with impredicative types enabled? |
| 13:18:51 | <ncf> | no |
| 13:19:11 | <kuribas> | well (forall a. Num a => a) |
| 13:20:08 | <ncf> | yes |
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| 14:22:09 | <dminuoso> | ncf: Oh, I indeed mixed this one up. |
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| 14:26:56 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: that's not valid haskell syntax |
| 14:27:20 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Half of it is. |
| 14:27:38 | <merijn> | Actually ∀ totally is valid haskell with -XUnicodeSyntax :p |
| 14:27:49 | <dminuoso> | Yes we do not have `∃x.` .. but then again we do not really have existential codes (except for those encoded via universal quantification) |
| 14:30:33 | <kuribas> | We do have existential types. |
| 14:30:43 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Let me rephrase: |
| 14:30:47 | <dminuoso> | We do not have existential quantification. |
| 14:30:55 | <dminuoso> | Except that you encode it via the above isomorphism. |
| 14:31:20 | <dminuoso> | Not quite sure whether we can give a clean and accurate definition of what "an existential type" is exactly. |
| 14:32:12 | <dminuoso> | If an existential type is any quantified type where an `∃a. ...` could appear in, then `id` too is an existential type because we could encode it in terms of an existential quantifier. |
| 14:33:27 | <dminuoso> | s/too is an /too has an/ |
| 14:35:47 | <kuribas> | "data Foo = forall a. Foo a" is an existential type. |
| 14:35:59 | <kuribas> | a is existential in Foo. |
| 14:36:13 | <kuribas> | Foo is not a function type. |
| 14:36:16 | <dminuoso> | That one is a bit funny. |
| 14:36:36 | <dminuoso> | So the language extension *is* called ExistentialQuantification, and if it had been faithful, it would have allowed to write: |
| 14:36:53 | <dminuoso> | `data Foo where Foo :: exists a. a -> Foo` |
| 14:37:22 | <dminuoso> | Instead it uses a very strange notation where you put the `forall a` into a strange spot, there by impying that. |
| 14:37:36 | <dminuoso> | % :set -XExistentialQuantification |
| 14:37:36 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:37:45 | <dminuoso> | % data Foo = forall a. Foo a |
| 14:37:45 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 14:37:47 | <dminuoso> | % :t Foo |
| 14:37:47 | <yahb2> | Foo :: a -> Foo |
| 14:38:19 | <Leary> | dminuoso: That should be `(exists a. a)`; you wouldn't even need GADTSyntax to write it. |
| 14:38:36 | <dminuoso> | Leary: Sure or that. |
| 14:38:55 | <dminuoso> | Leary: I just wanted to use GADTSyntax to avoid some confusion. |
| 14:41:04 | <dminuoso> | Can you make GHC print out quantifiers explicitly with :t ? |
| 14:43:14 | <Leary> | kuribas: `Foo` is also effectively "encoded via universal quantification" due to the fact that we need to type any code that interacts with it using only `forall`: `Foo :: forall a. a -> Foo`; `\f -> \case{ Foo x -> f x } :: forall r. (forall a. a -> r) -> r`. |
| 14:44:29 | <Leary> | *Foo -> r |
| 14:45:07 | <Leary> | Shouldda swapped those args, but you get the picture. |
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| 14:46:12 | <dminuoso> | I think the only sensible definition of "existential type" is one that has an existential quantifier inside it. |
| 14:46:32 | <dminuoso> | If its encoded via unviersal quantification, I would not call it an "existential type" |
| 14:47:11 | <dminuoso> | Otherwise there would be no distinction between "universal type" and "existential type", and thereby no reason to have two terms. |
| 14:47:45 | <dminuoso> | (Which begs the question what to call a type has both an existential and universal quantifier inside) |
| 14:48:06 | <dminuoso> | Maybe we should not use these terms at all. |
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| 14:50:35 | <Leary> | The strict definition should be that a universal or existential type has the corresponding quantifier outermost, but in the absense of the latter quantifier and the presence of reasonable encodings thereof, that definition obviously just isn't pragmatic enough. |
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| 15:28:01 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: this is an existential type by all definitions. |
| 15:30:43 | <kuribas> | It's the same as Foo (a:Type ** a) in idris. |
| 15:32:08 | <kuribas> | Since Pi(a:Type, (a -> Type)) equals Sigma(a:Type, a) -> Type |
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| 15:33:57 | <kuribas> | A universal type would be (data Foo = Foo (forall a. a)) |
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| 16:36:58 | <hellwolf> | chatgpt <<< "Write f :: Integer -> [Word8] for me in Haskell" would you bet on its performance? |
| 16:37:20 | <hellwolf> | it should ask at least BE or LE though. |
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| 16:39:39 | <homo> | portability tip: write code to be independent of byte order |
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| 16:39:50 | <mauke> | map (toEnum . fromEnum) . show |
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| 16:42:10 | <homo> | mauke if every element can store only between 0 and 9, it's a waste of space to use 8-bit type |
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| 16:44:36 | <merijn> | homo: I have bad news if you think Word8 is an 8-bit type :) |
| 16:45:17 | <homo> | prototype: f i = if i < 256 then [i] else (i % 256) : f (i / 256) |
| 16:46:41 | <mauke> | :t let f i = if i < 256 then [i] else (i % 256) : f (i / 256) in f |
| 16:46:42 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:46:42 | <lambdabot> | • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 ~ Ratio t1 |
| 16:46:42 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: [t1] |
| 16:46:45 | <merijn> | That's not gonna do what you expect :p |
| 16:46:51 | <merijn> | Since % is not modulo |
| 16:47:08 | <merijn> | (I mean, it's also not modulo in any other programming language, but at least it's closer) |
| 16:47:19 | <hellwolf> | data {-# CTYPE "HsWord8" #-} Word8 |
| 16:47:19 | <hellwolf> | = W8# Word8# |
| 16:47:25 | <hellwolf> | but it's boxed... |
| 16:47:49 | <merijn> | hellwolf: Right, so it's just a machine word and thus 64bit :p |
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| 16:48:20 | <hellwolf> | huh? |
| 16:48:29 | <homo> | > let fi = if i < 256 then [i] else (mod i 256) : f (i / 256) in f 2038 |
| 16:48:31 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:48:31 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (FromExpr [Expr]) arising from a use of ‘f’ |
| 16:48:31 | <lambdabot> | from the context: FromExpr t |
| 16:48:47 | <homo> | > let f i = if i < 256 then [i] else (mod i 256) : f (i / 256) in f 2038 |
| 16:48:48 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:48:48 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘t0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M163387529259... |
| 16:48:48 | <lambdabot> | prevents the constraint ‘(Show t0)’ from being solved. |
| 16:49:06 | <merijn> | hellwolf: Word8 takes up 64bits of memory, because that's the minimal size for boxed values in GHC |
| 16:49:22 | <merijn> | I mean, I suppose it'd take 32 on an x86 but who still uses those |
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| 16:51:36 | <homo> | > let f i = if i < 256 then [i] else (mod i 256) : f (div i 256) in f 203820382038 |
| 16:51:37 | <lambdabot> | [86,55,164,116,47] |
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| 16:52:11 | <merijn> | mod should probably be rem, no? |
| 16:52:27 | <merijn> | And you can optimise it with quoteRem |
| 16:52:31 | <merijn> | eh, quotRem |
| 16:52:33 | <merijn> | :t quotRem |
| 16:52:34 | <lambdabot> | Integral a => a -> a -> (a, a) |
| 16:52:45 | <merijn> | > 372 `quotRem` 256 |
| 16:52:46 | <lambdabot> | (1,116) |
| 16:53:35 | <homo> | tuple is not a list |
| 16:53:52 | <mauke> | :t uncurry (:) |
| 16:53:53 | <lambdabot> | (a, [a]) -> [a] |
| 16:53:53 | <homo> | also what's difference between mod and rem? |
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| 16:54:11 | <merijn> | mod is always positive |
| 16:54:22 | <merijn> | homo: So they're identical IFF both arguments are positive |
| 16:54:34 | <merijn> | > (-1297 `mod` 256) |
| 16:54:35 | <lambdabot> | -17 |
| 16:54:38 | <merijn> | > (-1297 `rem` 256) |
| 16:54:39 | <lambdabot> | -17 |
| 16:54:46 | <haskellbridge> | <hellwolf> how can you create a tuple of unboxed blah |
| 16:54:47 | <merijn> | or is it on the divider? |
| 16:54:50 | <merijn> | I always forget |
| 16:54:56 | <merijn> | hellwolf: With difficulty :) |
| 16:55:00 | <homo> | and prototype that I use (assuming it converts to word8) assumes positive integers anyway |
| 16:55:12 | <merijn> | > (1297 `rem` -256) |
| 16:55:13 | <hellwolf> | :set -XWithDifficulty? |
| 16:55:13 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:55:13 | <lambdabot> | Precedence parsing error |
| 16:55:13 | <lambdabot> | cannot mix ‘rem’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same in... |
| 16:55:18 | <merijn> | > (1297 `rem` (-256)) |
| 16:55:19 | <lambdabot> | 17 |
| 16:55:25 | <merijn> | > (-1297 `rem` (-256)) |
| 16:55:27 | <lambdabot> | -17 |
| 16:55:31 | <merijn> | > (-1297 `mod` (-256)) |
| 16:55:32 | <lambdabot> | 239 |
| 16:55:35 | <merijn> | > (1297 `mod` (-256)) |
| 16:55:36 | <lambdabot> | -239 |
| 16:56:25 | <merijn> | hellwolf: I think you just need UnboxedTuples and MagicHash? |
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| 17:05:39 | <hellwolf> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0xsGQoyr |
| 17:05:46 | <hellwolf> | I don't know what I am doing, but I crashed GHC |
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| 17:07:01 | <merijn> | Congrats! |
| 17:07:13 | <homo> | merijn the reason to not use quotRem and uncurry is because resulting code becomes longer than it is with div and mod/rem |
| 17:07:28 | <merijn> | hellwolf: ah, you can't do that in ghci I expect |
| 17:07:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> six mentions of Call Stack, making clear there was panic! |
| 17:07:51 | <merijn> | hellwolf: ghci doesn't compile to machine code, it compiles to bytecode that's interpreted |
| 17:08:04 | <merijn> | hellwolf: I'm not sure bytecode can support unboxed tuples |
| 17:08:08 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Don't Panic, GHC |
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| 17:08:55 | <homo> | > let f i = if i < 256 then [i] else uncurry (flip (:)) . (\(a,b) -> (f a, b)) $ quotRem i 256 in f 203820382038 |
| 17:08:57 | <lambdabot> | [86,55,164,116,47] |
| 17:09:08 | <homo> | > let f i = if i < 256 then [i] else (mod i 256) : f (div i 256) in f 203820382038 |
| 17:09:10 | <lambdabot> | [86,55,164,116,47] |
| 17:09:16 | <hellwolf> | I proceed to crash https://play.haskell.org/ then |
| 17:09:45 | <merijn> | hellwolf: You can try to start ghci with -fobject-code |
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| 17:10:18 | <geekosaur> | it's supposed to in recent versions but you need to turn on a flag (-fno-unoptimized-core-for-interpreter, I think) |
| 17:10:50 | <geekosaur> | requires 9.8 or later; older versions crash with unboxed tuples |
| 17:11:13 | <geekosaur> | (the bytecode interpreter can't tell the difference between boxed and unboxed tuples, specifically) |
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| 17:15:23 | <hellwolf> | https://play.haskell.org/saved/YjifSESh |
| 17:15:32 | <hellwolf> | crash GHC 9.10, but meaningful error in 9.8 |
| 17:15:36 | <hellwolf> | wrong code, I guess. |
| 17:16:24 | <geekosaur> | interesting. I'd report that |
| 17:16:40 | <geekosaur> | although maybe 9.10.2-to-be already has it fixed |
| 17:18:03 | <hellwolf> | what's the syntax for unboxed tuple anyways |
| 17:18:12 | <hellwolf> | is it `(# ... #)` |
| 17:18:27 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 17:18:46 | <geekosaur> | (with commas; note that with | it's unboxed sum) |
| 17:20:03 | <hellwolf> | " Operator applied to too few arguments: #" |
| 17:20:54 | <geekosaur> | did you turn on MagicHash? |
| 17:21:06 | <hellwolf> | yes |
| 17:21:17 | <hellwolf> | let me read some docs |
| 17:22:11 | <hellwolf> | well, the solution to all your problems -XUnboxedTuples |
| 17:22:24 | <hellwolf> | ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| 17:25:21 | <mauke> | what happened to the left arm? (does your irc client speak markdown?) |
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| 17:25:43 | <hellwolf> | losing arms and legs using ghc |
| 17:26:23 | <hellwolf> | print ((# (wordToWord8# 8##), (wordToWord8# 9##) #) :: F#) ... |
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| 17:26:37 | <hellwolf> | now idea how to lift >>> show an unlifted type |
| 17:26:40 | <hellwolf> | *no |
| 17:26:47 | <hellwolf> | but I think I am letting it go; I digressed too much. |
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| 19:59:35 | <sinbad> | I am trying to build a completely static executable in a alpine:edge container. The program is written in haskell, it uses gpg as an external program or alternatively gpgme library API depending on a cabal flag. I used gchup to set ghc/cabal up. I can compile both variants as a dynamic executables and they work fine. I can also build the variant using gpg completely static. However, building with gpgme lib API it produces a lot of unde |
| 19:59:35 | <sinbad> | fined references while linking to libgpgme.a. Any advice how to go about solving this? |
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| 20:01:23 | <sinbad> | asking the same question on #alpine-linux |
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| 20:07:12 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I would also try #ghcup:matrix.org (https://matrix.to/#/#ghcup:matrix.org) and #GHC:matrix.org (https://matrix.to/#/#GHC:matrix.org) |
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| 21:53:51 | <cuteguest> | hiiiii ^^ has anyone here used stuff from Data.Constraint or Data.Constraint.Extras? they seem v interesting |
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| 21:56:11 | <cuteguest> | also anyone else up glorping it? |
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| 21:57:40 | <cuteguest> | ok im slpy gn |
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| 22:39:13 | <dmwit> | shower thought: it should be forever = fix . (>=>) and the existing one, fix . (>>), should be forever_ |
| 22:40:27 | <glguy> | repeatM_? |
| 22:41:03 | <dmwit> | If that's a thing, hoogle doesn't know about it in any library I'd consider standard. |
| 22:41:58 | <dmwit> | It's iterateM_ in monad-loops, I think. |
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| 22:46:53 | <glguy> | No, it's not a thing. I was thinking of things that I've wanted in this space |
| 22:47:33 | <dmwit> | Yeah. I guess now that you mention it, there's rather a lot of variations that I would have found useful at one or point or another. |
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| 23:24:25 | <Leary> | hellwolf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-bignum-1.3/docs/GHC-Num-Integer.html#v:integerToMutableByteArray-35- |
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| 23:49:40 | <hellwolf> | does anyone know how to use TH to express a list of constraints in its quotation form: [d| instance ($(mapM (pure . TH.conT ''ABITypeable) xs)) => ABITypeable $(tpl) where ... |] |
| 23:49:57 | <hellwolf> | I know how to do it without the quotation form, but that's not so read. |
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| 23:56:14 | <c_wraith> | There are lots of places you just can't splice into. That might be one of them. |
| 23:57:41 | <c_wraith> | though that mapM (pure . blah) is kind of funny. |
| 23:57:55 | <c_wraith> | that'd be like... pure (map blah ...) |
All times are in UTC on 2025-01-24.