Logs on 2025-01-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:11:05 | <Tikosh> | hello. im a noob at programming and wonder if you can see my code. https://bpa.st/JQ3A |
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| 04:11:43 | <EvanR> | cool |
| 04:11:55 | <EvanR> | have you seen this function |
| 04:11:58 | <EvanR> | :t interact |
| 04:11:59 | <lambdabot> | (String -> String) -> IO () |
| 04:12:43 | <Tikosh> | i have not |
| 04:13:10 | <EvanR> | it takes a function like your questionOne function as argument |
| 04:13:27 | <EvanR> | and does the getting of input and printing of response for you |
| 04:13:39 | <int-e> | meh it'll be awkward because there are prompts |
| 04:13:46 | <Tikosh> | EvanR: alright |
| 04:14:17 | <EvanR> | your program begins with a different pattern, yeah |
| 04:15:07 | <EvanR> | but you can practice making higher order functions like interact to factor out some common I/O patterns |
| 04:15:18 | <Tikosh> | EvanR: I still don't understand. sorry. I got a haskell textbook and started reading it for fun |
| 04:15:28 | <Tikosh> | EvanR: alright. ill practice |
| 04:15:44 | <int-e> | The code may be a tad too simple to comment on usefully. I wouldn't use `printf` (try using "%s" as your name) |
| 04:15:45 | <EvanR> | 👍 |
| 04:16:44 | <Tikosh> | int-e: alrighty then |
| 04:16:47 | <int-e> | (Or, if you *want* to use printf, use "%s" and pass an extra argument whereever you're using user input.) |
| 04:17:18 | <int-e> | (putStrLn <string> prints a line) |
| 04:17:27 | <Tikosh> | int-e: I was told to put printf. originally it had print in it. i was running the mian from the REPL in Emacs |
| 04:17:50 | <Tikosh> | or on the REPL |
| 04:18:22 | <EvanR> | yes printf is kind of an awkward thing to go for in basic haskell |
| 04:18:50 | <Tikosh> | EvanR: so just go with putStrLn or print? |
| 04:19:01 | <EvanR> | putStrLn |
| 04:19:05 | <Tikosh> | alright |
| 04:19:05 | <EvanR> | print will do the wrong thing |
| 04:19:20 | <EvanR> | % print 7 |
| 04:19:20 | <yahb2> | 7 |
| 04:19:27 | <EvanR> | % print "Hello World" |
| 04:19:27 | <yahb2> | "Hello World" |
| 04:19:36 | <EvanR> | notice the quotation marks |
| 04:19:48 | <Tikosh> | oh. i see |
| 04:20:31 | <Tikosh> | i was intending to make a console application. i only run it from the REPL. did not compile it, yet. |
| 04:20:51 | <EvanR> | % putStrLn "Hello World!" |
| 04:20:51 | <yahb2> | Hello World! |
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| 04:23:31 | <Tikosh> | Thank you so much for your instruction |
| 04:24:40 | <mauke> | @src print |
| 04:24:40 | <lambdabot> | print x = putStrLn (show x) |
| 04:25:15 | <mauke> | % show 42 <> show 'q' |
| 04:25:15 | <yahb2> | "42'q'" |
| 04:26:08 | <int-e> | % unwords [show 42, show 'q'] |
| 04:26:08 | <yahb2> | "42 'q'" |
| 04:26:50 | <EvanR> | you made a string containing values of different types! |
| 04:26:59 | <EvanR> | just kidding |
| 04:27:03 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@128-137-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 04:27:19 | <EvanR> | stringly typed languages ftw |
| 04:27:50 | <int-e> | EvanR: It's probably too much information, but `unwords` is unironically superior to repeated ++ " " ++ that often appear in manual formatting of several values. |
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| 04:28:07 | <EvanR> | why is that |
| 04:28:28 | <int-e> | in terms of writing the code :P |
| 04:28:43 | <EvanR> | hmm |
| 04:28:53 | <int-e> | also, that's an opinion, ymmv |
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| 04:31:51 | <int-e> | % putStrLn it |
| 04:31:51 | <yahb2> | 42 'q' |
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| 04:33:06 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> go Tikosh |
| 04:34:09 | <Tikosh> | yea? |
| 04:34:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> go go go, have fun |
| 04:35:02 | <Tikosh> | oh! you want me to leave. okay! |
| 04:35:13 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> no, I'm saying good work :) |
| 04:35:15 | <int-e> | nah |
| 04:35:20 | <int-e> | he's cheering you on |
| 04:35:29 | <int-e> | or trying to; it became awkward somehow |
| 04:35:29 | <Tikosh> | oh! lol! thank you! |
| 04:35:39 | <Tikosh> | no i get it. |
| 04:35:45 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I'm not very good at chat 🤣 |
| 04:36:14 | <Tikosh> | no worries |
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| 05:20:23 | <probie> | If English isn't your first language, "go" as an exhortation wishing success probably looks very weird. It makes much more sense as the tail-recursive "loop" for a function |
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| 05:40:50 | <monochrom> | \go -> go go o |
| 05:40:59 | <monochrom> | @type \go -> go go go |
| 05:41:00 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 05:41:00 | <lambdabot> | • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: |
| 05:41:00 | <lambdabot> | t ~ t -> t1 -> t2 |
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| 05:45:08 | <probie> | :t \(go :: forall a . a -> a) -> go go go |
| 05:45:09 | <lambdabot> | (forall a1. a1 -> a1) -> a -> a |
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| 08:14:49 | <lisbeths`> | are people in #haskell very familiar with binary lambda calculus? |
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| 08:16:08 | <probie> | What does "very familiar" mean? I probably can't read a non-trivial expression and reduce with pen and paper (or a computer) |
| 08:16:20 | <probie> | s/with pen/without pen/ |
| 08:16:55 | <lisbeths`> | I wrote a language that compiles to binary lambda calculus |
| 08:17:15 | <lisbeths`> | so it can be embedded into haskell and haskell can be embedded into it |
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| 08:30:37 | <dminuoso> | Sounds like a fun project |
| 08:30:51 | <dminuoso> | How much of Haskell do you support? |
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| 08:32:49 | <lisbeths`> | It should be compatible with the purely functional parts |
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| 08:36:12 | <dminuoso> | lisbeths`: Do you just compile system FC to binary lambda calculus then? |
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| 08:37:22 | <dminuoso> | Just wondering whether "purely functional parts" includes all of GADTs. |
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| 08:38:47 | <dminuoso> | By extension that would include things like ConstraintKinds |
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| 09:00:57 | <lisbeths`> | dminuoso: system fc? |
| 09:02:28 | <probie> | System F with type equality |
| 09:02:46 | <lisbeths`> | binary lambda calculus can bootstraps system F or any type system that you'd like |
| 09:03:01 | <probie> | So can a turing machine |
| 09:03:16 | <lisbeths`> | indeed |
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| 09:03:34 | <lisbeths`> | This is about making a very small purely functional language in the order of under 8 megabytes |
| 09:05:51 | <lisbeths`> | like what if you want a purely functional programming language to go into smartdust computers with very low computing power |
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| 10:40:44 | <dminuoso> | lisbeths`: Im not asking whether one can build it, just asking what kind of Haskell features you can already translate. |
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| 10:41:34 | <lisbeths`> | This is all hypothetical. i was asking in here a few months ago and they were telling me that something like ghc should mostly be dumpable into a lambda |
| 10:41:52 | <lisbeths`> | so the universal format for lambdas is called binary lambda calculus, so if a piece of haskell can be compiled to binary lambda calculus then it is compatible with my language no issue |
| 10:43:07 | <dminuoso> | Oh I do understand binary lambda calculus. |
| 10:43:44 | <dminuoso> | I was just curious about the meaning of "... and haskell can be embedded into it" part. |
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| 10:43:55 | <dminuoso> | To me implied the existence of a compiler. |
| 10:44:01 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps mistakingly |
| 10:44:07 | <lisbeths`> | no the haskell component isnt written yet |
| 10:44:30 | <lisbeths`> | i wanted to do something similar in nixos but the nix team on matrix said this was unsupported |
| 10:44:57 | <dminuoso> | What exactly is unsupported with nix? |
| 10:45:22 | <dminuoso> | By the way, the one thing I want most is a proper first class language evaluator for nixos modules. |
| 10:45:33 | <dminuoso> | One that isn't shoehorned into extremely primitive nix. |
| 10:46:09 | <lisbeths`> | I think I just caught one of the mods on a bad day |
| 10:49:00 | <dminuoso> | When you do any kind of NixOS configuration mistake, you'll get a huge stack trace showing you through the internals of the module evaluator. |
| 10:49:16 | <lisbeths`> | yeah fastlisp doesnt have errors |
| 10:49:26 | <dminuoso> | It's not that I dont want errors, errors are fine. |
| 10:49:35 | <lisbeths`> | fastlisp has no compiler output |
| 10:50:10 | <dminuoso> | I want the exceptions caught and handled. In case of NixOS I want them collected in fact.n |
| 10:50:16 | <dminuoso> | The evaluator should carry on, collect as many errors as possible |
| 10:51:22 | <dminuoso> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/aJHeZiHs |
| 10:52:01 | <dminuoso> | 350 lines of "where in the nixos module evaluator were we, exactly" |
| 10:52:43 | <lisbeths`> | I don't know alot about nixos I just know it might be very compatible with fastlisp |
| 10:53:09 | <dminuoso> | when in fact I would just like a damn source span of the file that has a typo. |
| 10:53:25 | <dminuoso> | The *one* thing that would help me contextualize the mistake... thats what nixos does not give you. |
| 10:53:45 | <lisbeths`> | you might not like fastlisp then becuase you have none of these luxuries in fastlisp |
| 10:53:59 | <dminuoso> | lisbeths`: You conflate the issue. |
| 10:54:02 | <dminuoso> | This is not about nix. |
| 10:54:15 | <dminuoso> | It's about the nixos module evaluator being shoehorned into extremely primitive code. |
| 10:54:28 | <lisbeths`> | fork |
| 10:54:35 | <dminuoso> | Imagine this was written in Java, and every kind of mistake is just "throw an exception and display the stacktrace" |
| 10:54:48 | <dminuoso> | It wouldnt be a java problem, but just bad code. |
| 10:55:13 | <lisbeths`> | I have never played with exception handling |
| 10:55:28 | <lisbeths`> | I'm not really a c++ or a java guy |
| 10:55:41 | <dminuoso> | The Haskell equivalent is `error "nope"` |
| 10:55:45 | <dminuoso> | It's about as helpful. |
| 10:56:02 | <lisbeths`> | I was surprised that compiler error messages exist and I am not convinced that they are necessary |
| 10:56:38 | <dminuoso> | Given the problem domain, GHC error messages are relatively decent. GHC has pretty good error handling. |
| 10:56:50 | <dminuoso> | Imagine you made a type error, and GHC gave you an internal stack trace back. |
| 10:57:06 | <dminuoso> | Instead GHC gives you contextual information, display the source, give you some information about types |
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| 10:58:15 | <dminuoso> | But I guess here comes the usual disclaimer: We dont use nix for its diagnostics... |
| 10:58:28 | <dminuoso> | However, it would be darn good to have some. |
| 10:59:12 | <dminuoso> | Part of the problem is the general nix mentality of "everything has to be dynamic", where even the output names of a flake are dynamic. |
| 10:59:29 | <dminuoso> | If you then include ifd you get an absurd situation where just `nix flake show` can potentially take 10 hours. |
| 10:59:46 | <dminuoso> | (This is not an IFD problem, its lack of constraints) |
| 10:59:59 | <dminuoso> | Oh well. Here goes my nix rant again. :( |
| 11:00:05 | <lisbeths`> | sorry I was afk |
| 11:00:30 | <lisbeths`> | I mean I really feel bad for all programmeres having to deal with the cryptic error messages of compilers |
| 11:00:44 | <lisbeths`> | and error handling systems that are not flawless |
| 11:01:00 | <lisbeths`> | haskell is an example of how to do certain aspects of a compiler very correctly |
| 11:01:09 | <dminuoso> | The thing is |
| 11:01:46 | <dminuoso> | If you started solving programming problems in nix, you would just get an instant realization that the language is fairly crappy and has basically no stdlib to solve any usual programming tasks.. |
| 11:02:07 | <dminuoso> | Try writing an IPv6 address parser as a fun excercise. |
| 11:02:35 | <lisbeths`> | sure I mean I dont have to involve nix |
| 11:02:37 | <dminuoso> | Even something mundane as "splitting a string" is rather difficult.. |
| 11:02:44 | <lisbeths`> | fastlisp is meant to be easily ported over to any turing complete system |
| 11:02:52 | <dminuoso> | well thats just the reason why the nixos module evaluator is so horrid. |
| 11:02:56 | <dminuoso> | or part of it anyway |
| 11:03:14 | <lisbeths`> | I am not saying my highest operation is to go scramble a bunch of nix code into my codebase here |
| 11:03:37 | <dminuoso> | its shoehorned into nix, because writing a first class evaluator (that does not tie the module evaluation into its own evaluation) would require engineering effort |
| 11:03:48 | <dminuoso> | the kind of effort that would be very hard with nix. |
| 11:03:52 | <lisbeths`> | yeah we dont like that shoehorning |
| 11:03:59 | <lisbeths`> | end shoehorning forever |
| 11:04:01 | <dminuoso> | that said, |
| 11:04:06 | <dminuoso> | nixos is the only reason Im using nix. :-) |
| 11:04:17 | <lisbeths`> | nonguix tho |
| 11:05:30 | <dminuoso> | I would like to use guix, but the ecosystem is just not rich enough for our needs. |
| 11:05:53 | <dminuoso> | (that is guix system) |
| 11:06:01 | <lisbeths`> | you can install the nix package manager on guixos and you can install the guix package manager on nixos |
| 11:06:27 | <lisbeths`> | should be pretty painless to migrate over except for a little disc space |
| 11:07:19 | <lisbeths`> | if you look at the direction the gnu project is headed guix has got mainline support from powerful industrialists. they want it to be able to replace debian |
| 11:07:21 | <__monty__> | That's like saying Fedora and Debian are both Linux distros so it should be pretty painless to migrate over without a reinstall... |
| 11:07:50 | <lisbeths`> | nah cause fedora has yum and debian has apt. youc ant install apt on fedora nad youc ant install yum on debian and expect things to just work |
| 11:08:05 | <__monty__> | ... |
| 11:08:05 | <lisbeths`> | whereas guix packages and nix pacakges are designed to be able to live on the same systems as each other as a feature |
| 11:08:43 | <lisbeths`> | ultimately all we are learning is "sudo package-manager-name install-keyword packagename1 packagename2 packagenamen..." |
| 11:08:56 | <lisbeths`> | so migration is as easy as filling in the blanks for that adlib |
| 11:09:51 | <lisbeths`> | it should even be possible to list nix pacakges in a guix package repo and list guix package in a nix package repo and one package manger will install packages from another package manager |
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| 11:16:32 | <dminuoso> | The problem is just that libcrystalball is rather expensive. |
| 11:16:54 | <dminuoso> | Of course it is not technically impossible, just completely infeasible to build a magic integration between the two. |
| 11:17:09 | <dminuoso> | Dont conflate nix with NixOS and guix with guix system here. |
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| 11:17:41 | <dminuoso> | While nix and guix, the repository "ecosystems", themselves are easy to install isolated, nixos/guix system are management frameworks to manage an entire system installation |
| 11:18:03 | <lisbeths`> | thats true |
| 11:18:12 | <lisbeths`> | but their objective is also to produce a standalone package manager |
| 11:18:18 | <dminuoso> | hardly |
| 11:18:31 | <dminuoso> | nix the package manage is not an objective of nixos, its a requirement,. |
| 11:18:46 | <lisbeths`> | oh well thats not what I was told years ago so maybe thats changed |
| 11:18:49 | <dminuoso> | It's an implementation artifact, rather. |
| 11:18:54 | <lisbeths`> | ah |
| 11:19:03 | <lisbeths`> | are you a fan of nixos? |
| 11:19:32 | <dminuoso> | Put it this way, between all the various deadly diseases you can pick from, I prefer NixOS over the alternatives. |
| 11:19:48 | <dminuoso> | But I can rant all day long about how poor and terrible it is. |
| 11:20:43 | <lisbeths`> | so what would you would prefer instead of the design of nixos |
| 11:21:02 | <dminuoso> | Internally Guix System is better designed. |
| 11:21:15 | <dminuoso> | But the lack of a rich and vibrant ecosystem means its not an option for us. |
| 11:21:42 | <dminuoso> | K8s would also a different approach, so its comparable in some sense. |
| 11:22:02 | <lisbeths`> | nonguix is really the solution there I believe |
| 11:22:07 | <dminuoso> | But the tech stack is designed to address problems we dont exactly have.. |
| 11:22:36 | <lisbeths`> | the guix project is very selective about what code they let into guix: that is why its repositories are so barren |
| 11:22:44 | <lisbeths`> | the nonguix project lets you package what you choose |
| 11:22:48 | <dminuoso> | lisbeths`: https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix/-/commits/master?ref_type=HEADS |
| 11:22:53 | <dminuoso> | Except for it being pretty much dead and inactive. |
| 11:23:18 | <lisbeths`> | the nonguix irc channel is pretty active |
| 11:23:24 | <dminuoso> | I dont debate that. |
| 11:23:37 | <lisbeths`> | it doesnt take much development to produce nonguix because the guix devs write all the main code |
| 11:23:45 | <dminuoso> | But when we pick a distribution to run the hundreds of servers at work, we need stability of updates. |
| 11:23:45 | <lisbeths`> | all nonguix has to do is add a custom repository |
| 11:24:47 | <__monty__> | I feel like you would be served well by actually trying out all your knowledge in practice. |
| 11:25:05 | <lisbeths`> | not yet I'm afraid |
| 11:25:23 | <lisbeths`> | I have been learning to summon a powerful dragon |
| 11:25:39 | <lisbeths`> | once I learn to ride this dragon then i will complete my quest |
| 11:25:54 | <dminuoso> | lisbeths`: The question is eventually how do you maintain the packages? How do you ensure that critical updates get included, build and tested on the same day they get released? |
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| 11:26:13 | <dminuoso> | And once you scale out, you need a lot of money to run the infrastructure to do just that. |
| 11:26:22 | <dminuoso> | Which is prohibitive. |
| 11:26:30 | <dminuoso> | Do I want guix to succeed in that sense? Absolutely. |
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| 11:27:10 | <lisbeths`> | if you dont like guix dont use it lol |
| 11:27:25 | <lisbeths`> | i have trouble with guix too it doenst run on android on arm |
| 11:28:11 | <lisbeths`> | you have to be the change you want to see in the world. if nix is pissing on you and telling you its raining look for better friends |
| 11:28:29 | <lisbeths`> | packing things yourself and taking responsiblity for your stack is part of being the change you want to see in the world |
| 11:29:33 | <lisbeths`> | guix isnt ready for production thats true |
| 11:31:39 | <dminuoso> | lisbeths`: We have several hundred servers. Now I'd have to check some numbers, but I think its plausible that we're fleeting somewhere around 5,000 distinct software packages. Now of course we could hire a team of 20 people to constantly monitor upstream packages we use, package them, fix things downstream, fix things upstream.. |
| 11:33:02 | <dminuoso> | Of course there's only three solutions: Either you rely on an ecosystem that works on its own, you are willing to fill the void, or you pay for it..b |
| 11:33:11 | <lisbeths`> | yeah thats rough I guess you have no choice but to use nix :) |
| 11:33:29 | <lisbeths`> | just undertstand that is still your choice |
| 11:33:59 | <lisbeths`> | some people still be running phyiscal windows xp machines on pentium using microsoft excel |
| 11:34:31 | <lisbeths`> | nixos will eventually catch up with guix |
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| 11:36:55 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Hardcore NixOS user here, what are your gripes with Nix/NixOS? |
| 11:37:23 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> And yes the Guix folk do have a few things working way better than we do. One of them is bootstrapping |
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| 11:39:41 | <lisbeths`> | the scheme langauge is better suited for rapid development but the compiler is not as good which is a technical debt |
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| 11:40:33 | <dminuoso> | magic_rb: The module evaluator has very poor diagnostics. It's about the equivalent of a high school java project that just prints out Thread.currentThread().getStackTrace() |
| 11:41:01 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Is scheme more suited? I think it really depends on your preferences, i find lisps quite hard to work with. Even good ones |
| 11:41:38 | <dminuoso> | In scheme it is simple do write control flow and error handling, yes. |
| 11:41:42 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> As for the module system, i feel you there. Its a mess, and while its not an excuse, if you use it enough the stack traves do start making sense and are quite helpful |
| 11:41:46 | <dminuoso> | Not any different from Haskell, honestly. |
| 11:42:08 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Control flow is easy in nix imo, error handling, uh if then error dunno |
| 11:42:18 | <lisbeths`> | when I code in haskell (i (just (code (it (like (this)))))) |
| 11:42:24 | <lisbeths`> | cause my brain is smol |
| 11:42:26 | <dminuoso> | magic_rb: Imagine we had GHC internal stack traces on any compiler error instead of context, and you said "if you learn GHC enough, the stack traces do start making sense and are quite helpful" |
| 11:42:40 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> As i said not an excuse |
| 11:42:43 | <dminuoso> | ;) |
| 11:43:05 | <dminuoso> | Of course the stack tracers are helpful on the basis of "its better than nothing" |
| 11:43:26 | <dminuoso> | But the same could be said of just giving you a memory dump. |
| 11:43:28 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> But also since i somewhat understand how the modulr system works i will say that not much can be improved without moving the implementation into Nix itself |
| 11:43:31 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Which im personally against |
| 11:43:41 | <haskellbridge> | <linj> what are your gripes with NixOS modules other than error messages? |
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| 11:44:05 | <dminuoso> | Evaluation speed is horrible. |
| 11:44:18 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Thats not a module system problem |
| 11:44:26 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Thats a nix problem, the evaluator is shit |
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| 11:44:39 | <haskellbridge> | <linj> any more |
| 11:44:41 | <dminuoso> | Given that the module system is written in nix, I dont see how the distinction is meaningful. |
| 11:44:58 | <dminuoso> | I pointed out earlier: I think it would be better if it was not written and shoehorned into nix. |
| 11:45:01 | <dminuoso> | But its not. |
| 11:45:07 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> I disagree |
| 11:45:21 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Nix doesnt change often, the module system does |
| 11:45:53 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> And the module system isnt slow, feel free to fix interpreter into a proper byte code one. Anyway sorry i gotta go do stuff |
| 11:47:56 | <dminuoso> | Given that the evaluator is built directly into nix, this turns into a "feel free to write a byte code compiler for nix" discussion. |
| 11:49:00 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> you dont have to do it in nix tbh |
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| 11:49:08 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> you can also use libnix these days and spit out derivations |
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| 11:49:49 | <lisbeths`> | lets say you compose a list of all of these technological problems you have mentioned about nix. and lets say you composed another list of all the reasons why you cant fix those problems on the first list. if you fix the problems on the second list then you will eliminate the issues youve mentioned with nix |
| 11:52:23 | <dminuoso> | well, you still have to fix the first list. ;) |
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| 13:02:27 | <euouae> | Hello I'm trying to use `cabal test` from out of project directory testing |
| 13:02:50 | <euouae> | I tried --project-dir="$path" but it is telling me that no cabal.project file or cabal file matching *.cabal was found |
| 13:02:55 | <euouae> | I think it's searching in CWD |
| 13:05:53 | <mauke> | I recall getting that error for a project file that couldn't be parsed |
| 13:05:58 | <mauke> | or something like that |
| 13:06:07 | <euouae> | hm, apparently if I append 'all' to the above it works |
| 13:06:21 | <euouae> | it's just a slight behavior deviation from `cabal test` in-source where it assumes the default target |
| 13:08:49 | <hellwolf> | can you do a `ls -R` there and paste to https://paste.tomsmeding.com/? |
| 13:09:10 | <euouae> | on project dir? it's a default `cabal init` |
| 13:10:00 | <hellwolf> | I just did a cabal init, and it worked. |
| 13:10:11 | <hellwolf> | did you choose "3) Library and Executable" |
| 13:10:16 | <hellwolf> | or, which one did you choose? |
| 13:10:21 | <euouae> | I chose Library |
| 13:10:33 | <euouae> | You just need to provide the test target, that's all |
| 13:10:38 | <euouae> | I figured it out |
| 13:10:49 | <hellwolf> | good |
| 13:11:02 | <hellwolf> | not for me though. which cabal version you are using. |
| 13:11:19 | <hellwolf> | I guess maybe you made some modifications too. |
| 13:11:25 | <hellwolf> | I just tried the default cabal init |
| 13:12:32 | <euouae> | 3.12 |
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| 13:57:37 | <euouae> | I have this simple megaparsec code that matches a newline token: <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Z1YT2YfI> I'm getting the errors: <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FCbetYRt> |
| 13:58:14 | <euouae> | I don't know how to understand this error. "Couldn't match type ‘Token s0’ with ‘Char’". I know it's complaining about some ambiguity in newline, but I don't see it |
| 14:01:23 | <ridcully> | euouae: shot in the dark: are you using Text and forgot to enable OverloadedStrings ? |
| 14:01:37 | <euouae> | It's there it seems |
| 14:01:41 | <dminuoso> | ridcully: No, that is not the issue. |
| 14:02:18 | <dminuoso> | parseTest :: (ShowErrorComponent e, Show a, VisualStream s, TraversableStream s) => Parsec e s a -> s -> IO () |
| 14:02:48 | <euouae> | Is the issue that newline is MonadParsec? |
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| 14:06:15 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Im thinking its the opposite of what ridcully suggested. |
| 14:06:31 | <dminuoso> | By enabling OverloadedStrings, `"hello world" :: IsText a => a` |
| 14:06:38 | <dminuoso> | s/IsText/IsString/ |
| 14:07:08 | <dminuoso> | Or.. no that does not quite make sense either |
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| 14:08:33 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Lets constrain the type checker. Give the string literal a type annotation. |
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| 14:10:39 | <euouae> | Ambiguous type variable ‘e0’ arising from a use of ‘parseTest’ prevents the constraint ‘(ShowErrorComponent e0)’ from being solved. |
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| 14:10:45 | <euouae> | I tried :: Text and :: String |
| 14:13:07 | <euouae> | It's a bit depressing how difficult haskell is with regards to its polymorphism |
| 14:14:08 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Well, partially the libraries are to blame. |
| 14:14:16 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Now this issue I can explain. |
| 14:14:37 | <dminuoso> | parseTest :: (ShowErrorComponent e, Show a, VisualStream s, TraversableStream s) => Parsec e s a -> s -> IO () |
| 14:15:26 | <dminuoso> | Note how the type has `e` (and a) only in negative position, but not in positive position. That is, it cannot infer from the output what kind of `e` (and a) you want from the fact that you use it. |
| 14:15:41 | <dminuoso> | `s` can be inferred from the second argument |
| 14:15:49 | <dminuoso> | but `e` and `a` must be inferred from the first argument |
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| 14:16:55 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Note, that while you defined `type Parser = Parsec Void Text` (which would set the error to Void), you do not use that type anywhere. |
| 14:17:17 | <dminuoso> | The same holds true for `s` here too, which is why you got the error before. |
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| 14:18:01 | <euouae> | yeah I don't use the type, it's what is recommended to do, but who knows why |
| 14:18:27 | <euouae> | I was trying to see how I like haskell (revisiting after a long time) but in parallel I'm giving OCaml a go |
| 14:18:30 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Lets step back, and remove the type annotation on the string literal. |
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| 14:19:06 | <dminuoso> | euouae: The core idea is that you write `a :: Parser _; a = ...` where _ should be some type |
| 14:19:23 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Then, when you use `parseTest a` it can unify types accordingly. |
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| 14:19:34 | <euouae> | so e.g. how would I write newline with Parser? |
| 14:19:56 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Well, you could just write `newline :: Parser ()` instead |
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| 14:20:23 | <dminuoso> | euouae: In other words, you must monomorphize your parser eventually, or parseTest |
| 14:20:49 | <euouae> | What you're saying does make sense, it's just that I don't know all the moving parts of megaparsec nor are they illustrated in a straightforward manner (for me) to digest |
| 14:20:59 | <dminuoso> | Yeah, I'm not a big fan of megaparsec either. |
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| 14:21:20 | <euouae> | For exmaple with newline :: Parser () I get an error Couldn't match type ‘Char’ with ‘()’ |
| 14:21:26 | <euouae> | What do you prefer instead? |
| 14:21:32 | <dminuoso> | euouae: Oh `Parser Char` of course. |
| 14:21:58 | <dminuoso> | There's probably a combinator to throw the result away |
| 14:22:07 | <dminuoso> | Since you dont care about the actual newline character in all likelihood |
| 14:22:23 | <dminuoso> | () <$ single '\n' |
| 14:22:30 | <dminuoso> | Probably some megaparsec builtin for that *shrugs* |
| 14:22:44 | <euouae> | Good point |
| 14:23:01 | <dminuoso> | THen you can use `Parser ()` of course |
| 14:23:28 | <dminuoso> | My personal favourite library for parsing is `flatparse`. |
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| 14:24:03 | <euouae> | It seems that megaparsec is as general as possible so that you can parse general types |
| 14:24:12 | <euouae> | but in practice people just parse byte strings |
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| 14:24:27 | <euouae> | is that fair to say? |
| 14:24:29 | <dminuoso> | Plenty people parse on Text or String too |
| 14:24:38 | <euouae> | yeah, those too |
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| 14:25:45 | <dminuoso> | If you want a simplistic and fast library, do take a look at flatparse |
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| 14:27:08 | <euouae> | "Informative tutorials are work in progress. See src/FlatParse/Examples for a lexer/parser example with acceptably good error messages." then you click the examples for 404 |
| 14:27:11 | <euouae> | <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/flatparse> |
| 14:27:51 | <euouae> | maybe that's some README.md issue. anbyway I located them on github |
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| 14:28:11 | <dminuoso> | Yeah that's not meant for hackage |
| 14:28:11 | <__monty__> | Megaparsec is fairly convenient once you get used to its particular model IMO. |
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| 14:28:57 | <dminuoso> | Note that flatparse is rather low level in a bunch of ways. Error handling you pretty much have to conjure yourself, but there's a bunch of primitives and examples |
| 14:29:00 | <euouae> | but how do you begin __monty__ ? |
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| 14:31:42 | <__monty__> | euouae: Have you checked out the tutorials? https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec.html |
| 14:32:01 | <euouae> | Yeah something confusnig about this tutorial is that it re-defines things that are already in megaparsec |
| 14:32:07 | <dminuoso> | __monty__: Honestly the tutorial is very intimidating. |
| 14:33:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> g'day all. megaparsec is the only industrial strength one AFAIK, having all the features you eventually need like good errors support. But it's not always the easiest. With it and maybe the others I find having the api / combinators scattered across different modules and packages makes them hard to learn |
| 14:33:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> though mp has an excellent tutorial |
| 14:34:01 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh you mentioned it |
| 14:34:03 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> what's wrong with the flatparse readme ? |
| 14:34:16 | <euouae> | Its examples link is broken on hackage |
| 14:34:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ah |
| 14:34:45 | <__monty__> | euouae: I think that's a pedagogic approach, teaching you how it works through reimplementing. |
| 14:34:46 | <dminuoso> | sm: flatparse has more potential for rich errors than megaparsec by far. |
| 14:35:37 | <euouae> | __monty__: it is not well-written. it is not clear that it is demonstrating something that already exists |
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| 14:35:47 | <euouae> | __monty__: see e.g. the text surrounding "The first primitive is called token" |
| 14:35:54 | <euouae> | there is no indication that token is in fact in megaparsec |
| 14:35:59 | <dminuoso> | It's a double edged sword: You *can* make error behavior any way you want (by switching between errors and failure, and defining custom merge logic at cuts), but you *have* to do it all yourself. |
| 14:36:28 | <dminuoso> | Want to display a source span? It's easy, just do it. |
| 14:36:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I was going to say.. potential is good.. is there good api to make good errors practical ? |
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| 14:37:20 | <dminuoso> | sm: The full power of the API is described by one combinator: |
| 14:37:23 | <dminuoso> | cutting :: ParserT st e a -> e -> (e -> e -> e) -> ParserT st e a |
| 14:38:09 | <dminuoso> | It's that single thing that enables you to build all the custom magic for contextual build up |
| 14:38:54 | <__monty__> | euouae: I'm not saying it's without faults but I don't know of better introductions. |
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| 14:39:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> sure but is that a lot of work ? do you get the feeling that the lib has been used in the real world so the common things you want to do are relatively easy ? |
| 14:39:17 | <euouae> | __monty__: I'll give some more time to megaparsec and I'll try to writ emy own introduction for basic things that can be done |
| 14:39:17 | <__monty__> | euouae: What I did was get to grips with ReadP first. And then Megaparsec kinda just was more of the same. |
| 14:39:46 | <euouae> | __monty__: sure -- if ReadP is a good pre-requisite then a good introduction to megaparsec should mention that :P |
| 14:39:58 | <euouae> | but thanks for sharing, I'll keep it in mind |
| 14:40:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> mp had a bunch of blog posts IIRC, not just one tutorial |
| 14:40:48 | <__monty__> | euouae: I don't know if it's really the best way to get introduced to parser combinators but it was enough to turn the cliff into a slope. |
| 14:42:08 | <dminuoso> | sm: Depends on your expectations, as usual. |
| 14:42:54 | <dminuoso> | sm: Its definitely not a library for "Oh I just want to explore the wonders of Haskell". But "industry strength" to me suggests high performance and full customizability. Both which flatparse is exceptionally good at. |
| 14:44:08 | <dminuoso> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/nrjGqfML this is an example from one of our simple parser on how I use `cutting` to build a simple `label` combinator to annotate parsers a simple label what they are currently parsing. |
| 14:44:49 | <dminuoso> | Where `merge` is just a function to merge an inner and outer error together in a sensible fashion |
| 14:45:26 | <__monty__> | Do you use flatparse with the parser-combinators package? |
| 14:45:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I hear that. For me it's more than that, it's also things like practical api already there for real world needs, good maintenance, good ecosystem support, and especially excellent documentation |
| 14:46:11 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I don't know what flatparse has, so I'm just picking your brains in case I'm missing something better. Docs are certainly not what I'd want |
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| 14:46:31 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (need.. as a person who struggled with parsers :) |
| 14:47:05 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I mean: the flatparse docs look fairly minimal. That's something I appreciated about mp |
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| 14:48:13 | <euouae> | Another thing I can't figure out is how to use megaparsec in a test suite |
| 14:48:37 | <euouae> | the parseTest function is not appropriate since it just prints stuff in failure but the test checks pass |
| 14:49:59 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://markkarpov.com/posts has the blog posts I was thinking of. They're not really beginner oriented but I think they can be helpful to give an idea of the evolution and why things are as they are now |
| 14:50:36 | <__monty__> | euouae: That function's more intended for interactive "testing", like in the repl. |
| 14:50:38 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec.html#testing-megaparsec-parsers ? |
| 14:51:21 | <__monty__> | euouae: You'd probably just use `parse` in a testsuite. |
| 14:54:14 | <euouae> | makes sense, thank you |
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| 18:32:50 | <euouae> | How can I stop emacs' lsp from inserting imports? |
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| 18:57:26 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> fr33domlover: has your stack network issue continued ? Were you able to see if IPv6 was the cause ? |
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| 19:14:19 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> another networking question: since cabal uses the HTTP library, how does it deal with https urls, or does it not ? |
| 19:15:35 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (I'm interested in real-world reliability of http-client[-tls] vs HTTP vs say curl) |
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| 19:16:47 | <glguy> | sm: I don't know how it does https, but it must as the documentation is littered with https:// examples |
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| 19:17:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> 👍️ |
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| 19:19:11 | <glguy> | sm: the default value for --http-transport=transport is "curl" |
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| 19:23:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> oh I see, so cabal uses curl by default |
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| 20:10:02 | <jackdk> | sm: http-conduit (upon which amazonka depends) uses http-client-tls |
| 20:11:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yup. http-client[-tls] seem to be the most used haskell http client (3x reverse deps compared to HTTP) |
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| 20:32:59 | <jackdk> | Amazonka will account for over three hundred of those |
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All times are in UTC on 2025-01-27.